Most well rounded fighers in terms of attributes.

[whiskey]

By "attributes", i mean things that could be put on a stat chart as in a video game such as punching power, hand speed, chin, defense, stamina, boxing skills and so on.

It doesn't have to be fighters that are elite at every level, but no particular area is considered a weakness either.

Oscar De La Hoya for one example is a very well rounded fighter, but his stamina leaves something to be desired so I wouldn't include him.

So basically if you were to just look at fighter on paper and rank them only in such individual categories, the guy would be no less than a '7' in any particular one and for the most part above.

A few names i would say would be

Emile Griffith
Marvin Hagler

[Tam Tam]

Hopkins

[valdosta]

Ray Leonard

[StingerKarl]

Alexis Arguello, Jose Napoles, Wilfred Benitez, and the best of the middleweights, Carlos Monzon.
When you put it all together, Joe Louis, Ezzard Charles, Joe Walcott, Archie Moore, Harold Johnson, Johnny Bratton, Jack Johnson, Matthew Saad Muhammad, Ike Williams, Joe Brown, Henry Armstrong and Bob Foster all rank high in those categories.:bears:

[jaws1216]

Alexis Arguello, Jose Napoles, Wilfred Benitez, and the best of the middleweights, Carlos Monzon.
When you put it all together, Joe Louis, Ezzard Charles, Joe Walcott, Archie Moore, Harold Johnson, Johnny Bratton, Jack Johnson, Matthew Saad Muhammad, Ike Williams, Joe Brown, Henry Armstrong and Bob Foster all rank high in those categories.:bears:

benitez and monzon, but not Hagler and Leonard?

[whiskey]

Alexis Arguello, Jose Napoles, Wilfred Benitez, and the best of the middleweights, Carlos Monzon.
When you put it all together, Joe Louis, Ezzard Charles, Joe Walcott, Archie Moore, Harold Johnson, Johnny Bratton, Jack Johnson, Matthew Saad Muhammad, Ike Williams, Joe Brown, Henry Armstrong and Bob Foster all rank high in those categories.:bears:

Many all time greats who were fairly well rounded but there's a few names who are easy to eliminate.

Saad - defense
Benitez - chin

If footwork was a category certainly Louis.

I don't mean to take shots at your list, just saying there aren't many guys that can make a list like this. It takes absolutely nothing away from them though.

[Inside Whiskey's sister 24/7]

Sal Sanchez.... :dunno:

[whiskey]

Sal Sanchez.... :dunno:

Yeah, i'd have to say he meets the "standard".

[StingerKarl]

Many all time greats who were fairly well rounded but there's a few names who are easy to eliminate.

Saad - defense
Benitez - chin

If footwork was a category certainly Louis.

I don't mean to take shots at your list, just saying there aren't many guys that can make a list like this. It takes absolutely nothing away from them though.

I think any fighter that takes Ray Leonards', Thomas Hearns' Carlos Palominos', and Roberto Durans' shots flush without being stoopped (forget about Padilla in the Leonard showdown) has a pretty good chin.

[jaws1216]

Yeah, i'd have to say he meets the "standard".

he's not blazing quick but he sure is well rounded.

Leonard is the answer if we have to pick one. Dude is flawless

[jaws1216]

I think any fighter that takes Ray Leonards', Thomas Hearns' Carlos Palominos', and Roberto Durans' shots flush without being stoopped (forget about Padilla in the Leonard showdown) has a pretty good chin.

Hearns broke his hand, he SCHOOLED Duran (my favorite fighter), he beat Palomino good as well.

But when he actually was chin checked, he went down...alot

[StingerKarl]

Hearns broke his hand, he SCHOOLED Duran (my favorite fighter), he beat Palomino good as well.

But when he actually was chin checked, he went down...alot

I am not even going to comment on that assinine post.

[whiskey]

I think any fighter that takes Ray Leonards', Thomas Hearns' Carlos Palominos', and Roberto Durans' shots flush without being stoopped (forget about Padilla in the Leonard showdown) has a pretty good chin.

I don't know how many "flush" shots Benitez took against those guys. Benitez was a master defensive type fighter. His reflexes enabled him to avoid or at least roll with most of the power shots he took, and his skills enabled him to survive even when he was buzzed. Later in his career when his reflexes eroded, he lost by some clear KO's. Not saying his chin was shit, but i think you could can put a question mark next to it.

[Tam Tam]

Benitez was a GREAT fighter...but he did have a weakness, like everyone. And his was his chin.

[jaws1216]

I am not even going to comment on that assinine post.

what did I say that was false?

[whiskey]

what did I say that was false?

Well i don't think he "schooled" Duran.

[jaws1216]

I am not even going to comment on that assinine post.

asinine* - extremely or utterly foolish

Yes or no did Hearns break his hand?

Yes or no did he beat Duran soundly?

Yese or no did he beat Palomino handily?

no for some more, Yes or no did Leonard drop him before the stoppage?

Yes or no did Hearns drop him in their fight?

[jaws1216]

Well i don't think he "schooled" Duran.

my thoughts on Duran are well documented, and Benitez won 10 rounds

[Erratic]

Marvin Hagler
Roberto Duran
Sugar Ray Leonard
Julio Cesar Chavez
Bernard Hopkins
Mike McCallum

[jaws1216]

Marvin Hagler
Roberto Duran
Sugar Ray Leonard
Julio Cesar Chavez
Bernard Hopkins
Mike McCallum

I agree with those

[whiskey]

Marvin Hagler
Roberto Duran
Sugar Ray Leonard
Julio Cesar Chavez
Bernard Hopkins
Mike McCallum

Pretty good list. I'm a huge fan of Chavez, but his hand speed and power even a pound over 140 were lackluster.

A 130 to 135 Chavez i think makes the list though.

[StingerKarl]

asinine* - extremely or utterly foolish

Yes or no did Hearns break his hand?

Yes or no did he beat Duran soundly?

Yese or no did he beat Palomino handily?

no for some more, Yes or no did Leonard drop him before the stoppage?

Yes or no did Hearns drop him in their fight?

Carlos:
You ought to lose this punk, for real.
He contributes very little to this website and we would all be better off if you kicked him out.
Karl

[jaws1216]

Carlos:
You ought to lose this punk, for real.
He contributes very little to this website and we would all be better off if you kicked him out.
Karl

is that what you do when u are confronted with logic and sound points?

[Erratic]

Pretty good list. I'm a huge fan of Chavez, but his hand speed and power even a pound over 140 were lackluster.

A 130 to 135 Chavez i think makes the list though.

Yeah, I think his hand speed would his "weakness", although he wasn't slow, he wasn't really that quick either.

But overall he was a well rounded fighter.

[Double L]

rjj at his best was very well rounded. he could fight inside, outside, had speed, power, defense, good chin.

srr of course.

throughout history, i think the best fighters have all been well rounded.

duran
sal sanchez
m. spinks comes to mind
holyfield

i think the sign of a well rounded fighter is one who cannot be dominated. a guy like benitez who went tooth and nail with the best of them. and he didn't go the distance with hearns and duran and have a bad chin.

lennox lewis was well rounded. he could slug if he needed to, box from the outside, go to war if he needed to.

ibeabuchi in his short career showed amazing breadth for a guy his size.


really i think it's the exception when a guy with glaring weaknesses has areas of strength that are enough to compensate. guys like frazier with his determination, j. jackson with his power, tito with his combination punching, la motta with his will, qawi with his pressure.

[dsimon3387]

Marvin Hagler
Roberto Duran
Sugar Ray Leonard
Julio Cesar Chavez
Bernard Hopkins
Mike McCallum

dsimon writes:

This is similar to a list I would make: aw fuck it lets go with Hopkins, Monzone, McCallum, Toney, Michael Moore and Chavez. I ain't crossing eras because it was a different game in some respects.

[Rubio MHS]

ibeabuchi in his short career showed amazing breadth for a guy his size.Except he couldn't punch. If someone like Rahman or Maskaev had caught Byrd on the point of the chin with his mouth open, Byrd wouldn't have made the count.

[whiskey]

dsimon writes:

This is similar to a list I would make: aw fuck it lets go with Hopkins, Monzone, McCallum, Toney, Michael Moore and Chavez. I ain't crossing eras because it was a different game in some respects.

Michael Moorer certainly doesn't get great "marks" across the board.

Monzon is sort of an enigma though. Certainly no big weaknesses to speak of. Hard to rate his individual abilities on a scale like this.

Nobody can deny his greatness, but to me personally he's the most boring great fighter of all time. He was so effective at what he did, that he seemed to never have to perform anything other than his standard "routine".

It sort od reminds of me of a documentary i saw on the Chess player Bobby Fischer. The Russians were by far the best nation in the world at the game. Their greatest players studies his tactics and tried to create their own to counter his. Most said his style (Fischer's) was fairly predictable. However as much as they knew about Fischer and his game, they still couldn't do anything about it.

It seems analgous to Monzon. He didn't overwhelm people with awesome power, didn't dazzle them with speedy combinations and never peformed some unheard of unorthodox moves, yet always won.

[Rubio MHS]

Monzon didn't have top-notch handspeed, but he was so incredibly strong at 160 that he didn't need it.

[slystaff]

By "attributes", i mean things that could be put on a stat chart as in a video game such as punching power, hand speed, chin, defense, stamina, boxing skills and so on.

It doesn't have to be fighters that are elite at every level, but no particular area is considered a weakness either.

Oscar De La Hoya for one example is a very well rounded fighter, but his stamina leaves something to be desired so I wouldn't include him.

So basically if you were to just look at fighter on paper and rank them only in such individual categories, the guy would be no less than a '7' in any particular one and for the most part above.

A few names i would say would be

Emile Griffith
Marvin Hagler

Sugar Ray Robinson, obviously.

Ali...only possible weakness is lack of one punch power.

PRIME Roy Jones Jnr...was IMO, the perfect fighter. In a videogame he'd MAX in every category.

[StingerKarl]

Carlos was amongst the best I ever saw in the 60's and 70's along with Bob Foster and Ali at using his superior height and reach advantage to his maximum effectiveness.

[whiskey]

Sugar Ray Robinson, obviously.

Ali...only possible weakness is lack of one punch power.

PRIME Roy Jones Jnr...was IMO, the perfect fighter. In a videogame he'd MAX in every category.

Not chin.

[Inside Whiskey's sister 24/7]

PRIME Roy Jones Jnr...was IMO, the perfect fighter. In a videogame he'd MAX in every category.

The same video game that had DLH and Hopkins having the same power at 160....and Gatti, Ward, Hatton having similar SPEED and POWER than Sugar Ray Robinson at 147......

:crafty:

[Trplsec]

McCallum

[lb 4 lb]

Shane Mosley. Statistically stacks right up there with all the best fighters ever. Great chin, stamina, heart, hand/foot speed, along with decent to good power and defense.

[Tam Tam]

You are easily the biggest Mosley nuthugger I've ever came across.

[slystaff]

Shane Mosley. Statistically stacks right up there with all the best fighters ever. Great chin, stamina, heart, hand/foot speed, along with decent to good power and defense.

Defense?

With a nose like that?:lol:

[lb 4 lb]

You are easily the biggest Mosley nuthugger I've ever came across.
Thank you, thank you.

[Maverick]

Shane Mosley. Statistically stacks right up there with all the best fighters ever. Great chin, stamina, heart, hand/foot speed, along with decent to good power and defense.


Go ride a motorcycle.

[Maverick]

Ray Leonard is the first guy that came to mind. Not particularly great at a few things but good enough overall in all departments.

[royyjonesjrp4pno1]

Floyd has everything you could want.

[dsimon3387]

Michael Moorer certainly doesn't get great "marks" across the board.

Monzon is sort of an enigma though. Certainly no big weaknesses to speak of. Hard to rate his individual abilities on a scale like this.

Nobody can deny his greatness, but to me personally he's the most boring great fighter of all time. He was so effective at what he did, that he seemed to never have to perform anything other than his standard "routine".

It sort od reminds of me of a documentary i saw on the Chess player Bobby Fischer. The Russians were by far the best nation in the world at the game. Their greatest players studies his tactics and tried to create their own to counter his. Most said his style (Fischer's) was fairly predictable. However as much as they knew about Fischer and his game, they still couldn't do anything about it.

It seems analgous to Monzon. He didn't overwhelm people with awesome power, didn't dazzle them with speedy combinations and never peformed some unheard of unorthodox moves, yet always won.


dsimon writes;

Good post :bears:. I am speaking strictly well rounded here.

[Baron]

You are easily the biggest Mosley nuthugger I've ever came across.I remember a guy from second's out named MASSMAN that was at least 10 times worst. He typed everything in caps and was convinced Mosley was the greatest fighter ever (That was before the Forrest debacle).

[dsimon3387]

Sugar Ray Robinson, obviously.

Ali...only possible weakness is lack of one punch power.

PRIME Roy Jones Jnr...was IMO, the perfect fighter. In a videogame he'd MAX in every category.

dsimon writes:

I disagree with you totally but I am interpreting the thread specifically to mean well rounded in a conventional boxing sense.

1) It is hard to tell the extent of RR's actual bread and butter skills the same way it is hard to tell how a Ferrari would compare to a Gypsy Cab on Spadini Street in the snow with chains on... RR coud be out brawled occasionally but beyond that it it impossible to say because RR was so gifted he could take a strong point and dominate.

2) Jones is in the same mold, though his chin was always an accident waiting to happen. Again, an opponent never got to see Roy's base tool box and the fact that Roy had weaknesses was always academic... but he did have weaknesses. Tarver showed that Roy could be psyched out and that his chin is shit.

3) Ali had power because he had speed. his weakness was that he threw very few types of punches, not that he didn't have power. Ali could KO with a jab Sly... that is some power. With Ali he used a different set of tools! So in a sense you can't compare his tool box to a traditional boxer. Ali used footwork that is more characteristic of the martial arts than boxing.... Specifically Tai Sabaki.

[dsimon3387]

Floyd has everything you could want.

dsimon writes:

Floyd has problems with power (his hands and the way he sets his punches up). Floyd also, because of the style he fights in does not utilie a jab. Floyd can't fight inside.

Aside from that he would be the guy I would pick. Toney is one of the few guys that sets punches up like Floyd and uses a similar shoulder roll techniqe. Yet Toney also can utilize the jab, can combo punch effectively and has power. Toney can also fight inside.

[steve_dave]

dsimon writes:

Floyd has problems with power (his hands and the way he sets his punches up). Floyd also, because of the style he fights in does not utilie a jab. Floyd can't fight inside.

Aside from that he would be the guy I would pick. Toney is one of the few guys that sets punches up like Floyd and uses a similar shoulder roll techniqe. Yet Toney also can utilize the jab, can combo punch effectively and has power. Toney can also fight inside.

Floyd is a very good in-fighter.

[Erratic]

dsimon writes:

Floyd has problems with power (his hands and the way he sets his punches up). Floyd also, because of the style he fights in does not utilie a jab. Floyd can't fight inside.

Aside from that he would be the guy I would pick. Toney is one of the few guys that sets punches up like Floyd and uses a similar shoulder roll techniqe. Yet Toney also can utilize the jab, can combo punch effectively and has power. Toney can also fight inside.

Floyd has a good jab. Sometimes he under-utilizes it, but I've seen his share of fighters where he is effective with it. It's an educated jab and he can go upstairs and down with it. I've seen him fight effectively on the inside as well.

In fact, seeing him fight well on the inside actually made me rather dissapointed in how he fought De La Hoya. He was so quick to clinch Oscar when he got close. De La Hoya isn't really much of an in-fighter, he does most of his damage at mid-range. But Floyd was apprehensive about being up close with Oscar and just held him quickly when he got close.

[?H?L?QU?L?$]

Agreed with Steve_Dave and Erratic, the only reason Floyd shouldn't be mentioned here is his lack of power and frail hands IMO, not his or jab or infighting ability.

[Free Ike]

Ponce Deleon
Ricardo Mayorga
Jose Luis Castillo
John Ruiz
Fres Oquendo

[dsimon3387]

Agreed with Steve_Dave and Erratic, the only reason Floyd shouldn't be mentioned here is his lack of power and frail hands IMO, not his or jab or infighting ability.

dismon writes:

Floyd can handle himself inside but I don't know if I would say he fights from there... maybe I will look at some tapes.

Regarding his jab: I just think his style does not allow him to use a jab often. So I guess one could say that his jab is not lacking. Yet Toney who to me seems to fight a similar style does manage to utilize the jab more often.

[dsimon3387]

Ponce Deleon
Ricardo Mayorga
Jose Luis Castillo
John Ruiz
Fres Oquendo

dsimon writes:

Zab Judah.


:lol:

[jarhead]

Peter McNeely?:dunno:

[Double L]

the great James Butler.

[Free Ike]

the great James Butler.
There are three James Butler's, right?

[jarhead]

There are three James Butler's, right?

James Butler to the Thrice power

[Free Ike]

James Butler to the Thrice power
I don't understand.

[jarhead]

I don't understand.

take the square root of Butler and multiply him by himself. This equals James Butler to the Thrice power.

[Double L]

why you guys always bustin my balls?

[jarhead]

why you guys always bustin my balls?

I don't understand?:dunno:












:kick: :lol:

[Ugotabe Kidding]

Cory Spinks

[valdosta]

Cory Spinks

He's a master at running and hugging

[Double L]

that would be kind of sweet if Spinks won. it would serve Taylor right, even though I don't completely blame him for his choice of opponents. I think his promoter probably has more to do with it, and the fact that his company can't afford for Taylor to lose.

the most satisfying thing would be hearing and seeing DiBella's reaction if Taylor loses.

[slystaff]

that would be kind of sweet if Spinks won. it would serve Taylor right, even though I don't completely blame him for his choice of opponents. I think his promoter probably has more to do with it, and the fact that his company can't afford for Taylor to lose.

the most satisfying thing would be hearing and seeing DiBella's reaction if Taylor loses.

If Taylor loses...we all lose. HBO loses. WBC/IBF/WBA loses. Boxing loses.

I'll have to turn to UFC....

[royyjonesjrp4pno1]

dsimon writes:

Floyd has problems with power (his hands and the way he sets his punches up). Floyd also, because of the style he fights in does not utilie a jab. Floyd can't fight inside.

Aside from that he would be the guy I would pick. Toney is one of the few guys that sets punches up like Floyd and uses a similar shoulder roll techniqe. Yet Toney also can utilize the jab, can combo punch effectively and has power. Toney can also fight inside.
Floyd is so good the only weakness you can come up with is hand problems. :clap:

[cdogg187]

Many all time greats who were fairly well rounded but there's a few names who are easy to eliminate.

Saad - defense
Benitez - chin

If footwork was a category certainly Louis.

I don't mean to take shots at your list, just saying there aren't many guys that can make a list like this. It takes absolutely nothing away from them though.

BINGO, all of those guys, brilliant as they were had a key defiency. The greatness was in how often they overcame it.

Hagler is an outstanding choice for this list, as are Sugar Rays Robinson and Leonard

Ezzard Charles certainly merits consideration, as does Evander Holyfield IMO

Another guy that comes to mind in his younger days was Julio Cesar Chavez--did everything superbly well

Also, Ricardo lopez

[Inside Whiskey's sister 24/7]

BINGO, all of those guys, brilliant as they were had a key defiency. The greatness was in how often they overcame it.

Hagler is an outstanding choice for this list, as are Sugar Rays Robinson and Leonard

Ezzard Charles certainly merits consideration, as does Evander Holyfield IMO

Another guy that comes to mind in his younger days was Julio Cesar Chavez--did everything superbly well

Also, Ricardo lopez

Also

Sal Sanchez :flip:

[slystaff]

Bernard Hopkins definitely!! More well rounded than Hagler!

[Erratic]

Bernard Hopkins definitely!! More well rounded than Hagler!

They're pretty close.

Both guys fight from the outside, mid-range, inside.

Hagler was more proven in the brawling category, I've seen him go to that "extra gear" when brawling later in his career that I didn't see from Hopkins in his latter years.

Hopkins is better defensively and quicker of hand. Hagler hit harder and had a better jab. They both had top-notch stamina.

[Tam Tam]

Hopkins could do more things than Hagler. That should cover it.

[Rubio MHS]

Floyd is so good the only weakness you can come up with is hand problems. :clap:Well, off the top of my head:

Punching power, but not KO power
Doesn't throw enough punches
Doesn't punch in combinations
Middling-to-good competition
A two-year stretch where he fought a string of nobodies
Never ruled any one single division thoroughly
Can be bullied to the ropes
Doesn't counterpunch off the ropes wellI mean, the guy's one of the best I've seen, but he's not exactly Sugar Ray Robinson.

[lb 4 lb]

Go ride a motorcycle.
You miss me?

[cdogg187]

Hopkins could do more things than Hagler. That should cover it.

agREED, he is an outstanding choice for this

[cdogg187]

Also

Sal Sanchez :flip:

for the most part, yeah

[Xplosive]

I'd say Leonard.

[Hut*Hut]

Tyson and Ray Robinson would basically both be 100 for chin, speed, power in a boxing video game.

[Ugotabe Kidding]

Cory Spinks

I told you so

[Orthodox Crusader]

Pavlik. Pavlik is the man.:rolleyes: