Joe Frazier v Mike Tyson

[Mean Mr Mustard]

Frazier (215lb), circa 1971 v Tyson (220lb), circa 1987.

Picks. Reasons.

[slystaff]

Frazier (215lb), circa 1971 v Tyson (220lb), circa 1987.

Picks. Reasons.

Tyson KO 3.

Joe was a slow starter who was susceptible to big punches, Tyson was a fast starter who threw big punches.

[Xplosive]

Mike takes him out, no question. Tyson was superior to Frazier in just about every category except stamina, which wouldnt become a factor cause Frazier wouldnt see the late rounds. Tyson was bigger, stronger, faster, more powerful, had a better chin, a better defense, more of an arsenal, and threw better combinations. Frazier would be overhwhelmed, not only by Mike's power, but by his handspeed too. Tyson KO 4.

[Mean Mr Mustard]

Okay - I see some good points here and Frazier was KO'd by Foreman twiece (3 and 6) and wobbled by Ali early in the '74 meeting.
But, to say he wouldn't have been able to put a dent in Tyson is a bit too much? The guy had legit heavyweight power....Tyson wouldn't go charging in knowing this?

[Xplosive]

Okay - I see some good points here and Frazier was KO'd by Foreman twiece (3 and 6) and wobbled by Ali early in the '74 meeting.
But, to say he wouldn't have been able to put a dent in Tyson is a bit too much? The guy had legit heavyweight power....Tyson wouldn't go charging in knowing this?

In terms of raw power I'd say Razor Ruddock hit harder than Frazier. Mike took hellacious shots from Ruddock in both fights, and just smiled and kept coming. Tyson had a helluva chin, to stop him you need to give him a sustained beating over a long number of rounds. Frazier wouldnt be around long enough.

[Mean Mr Mustard]

In terms of raw power I'd say Razor Ruddock hit harder than Frazier. Mike took hellacious shots from Ruddock in both fights, and just smiled and kept coming. Tyson had a helluva chin, to stop him you need to give him a sustained beating over a long number of rounds. Frazier wouldnt be around long enough.
What about Frazier's sickening body attack. ? :dunno:

[slystaff]

Mike takes him out, no question. Tyson was superior to Frazier in just about every category except stamina, which wouldnt become a factor cause Frazier wouldnt see the late rounds. Tyson was bigger, stronger, faster, more powerful, had a better chin, a better defense, more of an arsenal, and threw better combinations. Frazier would be overhwhelmed, not only by Mike's power, but by his handspeed too. Tyson KO 4.

word.

[slystaff]

In terms of raw power I'd say Razor Ruddock hit harder than Frazier. Mike took hellacious shots from Ruddock in both fights, and just smiled and kept coming. Tyson had a helluva chin, to stop him you need to give him a sustained beating over a long number of rounds. Frazier wouldnt be around long enough.

word....again!

Dude, you're a genius! This is exactly right.

[slystaff]

What about Frazier's sickening body attack. ? :dunno:
Would be a non-factor. He simply wont last long enough to bother Mike with it.

[Hanzy]

Would be a non-factor. He simply wont last long enough to bother Mike with it.

...in your opinion. Tyson fought alot of scared guys in his career, he was a master intimidator. If Douglas and Holyfield could stand up to his act and throw back, Frazier could too. It could end up being Tyson who gets scared when he realizes Frazier ain't intimidated.

[Hanzy]

In terms of raw power I'd say Razor Ruddock hit harder than Frazier. Mike took hellacious shots from Ruddock in both fights, and just smiled and kept coming. Tyson had a helluva chin, to stop him you need to give him a sustained beating over a long number of rounds. Frazier wouldnt be around long enough.

Ruddock ain't Joe Frazier last time I checked. If you wanna see what kind of attack Frazier could administer, check out his old fights. Dude could go high paced round after round and break you down. Also, nobody really ever attacked Tyson's body. Holyfield did to an extent in the first fight. Holyfield slipped Tyson's jab and countered with a right hook to Tyson's ribcage and Tyson cringed and backed off. Just imagine what Frazier would do to that body. Tyson's body is soft but his chin is hard.

[CleanYourClock]

Mike takes him out, no question. Tyson was superior to Frazier in just about every category except stamina, which wouldnt become a factor cause Frazier wouldnt see the late rounds. Tyson was bigger, stronger, faster, more powerful, had a better chin, a better defense, more of an arsenal, and threw better combinations. Frazier would be overhwhelmed, not only by Mike's power, but by his handspeed too. Tyson KO 4.

This is complete trash ... The only thing Tyson was supierior in was a KO punch ...
If Frazier gets through the begining of the fight , he stops Mike before the end of 12 ...
Similar to the way Holyfield stopped him in the first fight ..

[slystaff]

...in your opinion. Tyson fought alot of scared guys in his career, he was a master intimidator. If Douglas and Holyfield could stand up to his act and throw back, Frazier could too. It could end up being Tyson who gets scared when he realizes Frazier ain't intimidated.

nonsense.

Tyson wouldn't fear Frazier. Holyfield had a better chin than Joe. Douglas was a tall jabber/mover and besides...Tyson wasn't "right" that night.

Fear has nothing to do with this...Joe's chin and slow starting..DOES!

[slystaff]

This is complete trash ... The only thing Tyson was supierior in was a KO punch ...
If Frazier gets through the begining of the fight , he stops Mike before the end of 12 ...
Similar to the way Holyfield stopped him in the first fight ..

But he wont..which is the point. Shit...Bonavena dropped Frazier TWICE early in their fight, and Oscar was no Tyson.

Tyson would walk through Frazier.

[CleanYourClock]

nonsense.

Tyson wouldn't fear Frazier. Holyfield had a better chin than Joe. Douglas was a tall jabber/mover and besides...Tyson wasn't "right" that night.

Fear has nothing to do with this...Joe's chin and slow starting..DOES!

Since fuckin when does Frazier have a bad chin ?? :rolleyes: :notallthere:

[CleanYourClock]

But he wont..which is the point. Shit...Bonavena dropped Frazier TWICE early in their fight, and Oscar was no Tyson.

Tyson would walk through Frazier.

You're on crack .... You act as though for the first 4 rounds Frazier moves as fast as an old lady with parkinsons ... :rolleyes:

Get a fuckin grip Sly ...

[slystaff]

You're on crack .... You act as though for the first 4 rounds Frazier moves as fast as an old lady with parkinsons ... :rolleyes:

Get a fuckin grip Sly ...

In the first four rounds, it aint about stamina, it's about power, speed and chin. All three are in favour of Tyson (as well as size) and as such he'll SMOKE "Smokin' Joe" like a blunt!:cool:

[CleanYourClock]

In the first four rounds, it aint about stamina, it's about power, speed and chin. All three are in favour of Tyson (as well as size) and as such he'll SMOKE "Smokin' Joe" like a blunt!:cool:

If you want to pick a no heart , quitter , that has NEVER beaten another elite Heavyweight fighter in Tyson , go ahead ...
I say Joe ices Tyson around 10 in similar fashion Evander took him out in ...
Tyson gets Frustrated that Joe is still there , and Joes batters him with non stop punches until Tyson is dizzy and finally hits the canvas.

[Erratic]

This is complete trash ... The only thing Tyson was supierior in was a KO punch ...
If Frazier gets through the begining of the fight , he stops Mike before the end of 12 ...
Similar to the way Holyfield stopped him in the first fight ..

Frazier doesn't fight much like Holyfield.

[CleanYourClock]

Frazier doesn't fight much like Holyfield.

Never said he did. I only said the end result would be similar ...

[Erratic]

Probably Tyson early, due to styles.

Frazier's edge is stamina and mental toughness.

Tyson has quicker hands, better jab, variety of punches, and is a much faster starter.

Tyson grew frustrated and impatient against guys like Douglas and Holyfield who for the most part, nullified his offense. They were taller rangier guys who used solid jabs, straight right hands, uppercuts (a punch Tyson was always rather suspectible to), and clinched a lot. Frazier generally winged hooks to both head and body, on the inside. Frazier had more skills on the inside, but obviously Tyson could do serious damage on the inside (especially while coming in) or at mid-range.

As shown by Oscar, Ali, and Foreman, Frazier could be pretty vulnerable in the early going. Hardly any heavyweight started faster than Tyson. Foreman unloaded on Frazier with uppercuts, and again, very few HW had better uppercuts than Tyson.

Frazier was better at sticking to his plan and not getting frustrated, and had better stamina (although Tyson in his prime had good stamina), but I have a tough time thinking that Joe will make it out of the early rounds.

The frustration thing I saw with Tyson was really not when guys could take his shots but Tyson was still winning. It was when guys were beating Mike, nullifying his offense, clinching him and pushing him back, and Tyson's plan B was to throw a bomb. And Plan C was to throw another bomb. And Plan D was to throw another bomb.

[CleanYourClock]

Probably Tyson early, due to styles.

Frazier's edge is stamina and mental toughness.

Tyson has quicker hands, better jab, variety of punches, and is a much faster starter.

Tyson grew frustrated and impatient against guys like Douglas and Holyfield who for the most part, nullified his offense. They were taller rangier guys who used solid jabs, straight right hands, uppercuts (a punch Tyson was always rather suspectible to), and clinched a lot. Frazier generally winged hooks to both head and body, on the inside. Frazier had more skills on the inside, but obviously Tyson could do serious damage on the inside (especially while coming in) or at mid-range.

As shown by Oscar, Ali, and Foreman, Frazier could be pretty vulnerable in the early going. Hardly any heavyweight started faster than Tyson. Foreman unloaded on Frazier with uppercuts, and again, very few HW had better uppercuts than Tyson.

Frazier was better at sticking to his plan and not getting frustrated, and had better stamina (although Tyson in his prime had good stamina), but I have a tough time thinking that Joe will make it out of the early rounds.

Other then former 175lb champion Spinks , all of Tysons decent to very good opposition made it past the early rounds ...
I can't see why Frazier would not be able to as well ....

[slystaff]

If you want to pick a no heart , quitter , that has NEVER beaten another elite Heavyweight fighter in Tyson , go ahead ...
I say Joe ices Tyson around 10 in similar fashion Evander took him out in ...
Tyson gets Frustrated that Joe is still there , and Joes batters him with non stop punches until Tyson is dizzy and finally hits the canvas.

Rubbish.

Tyson would destroy Frazier. It simply couldn't go past the 5 rounds needed to bring your misguided conclusion into existence.

[Erratic]

Other then former 175lb champion Spinks , all of Tysons decent to very good opposition made it past the early rounds ...
I can't see why Frazier would not be able to as well ....

That's easy, because of styles.

Those guys fought more defensive and could use lateral movement, jabs from the outside, etc..

Frazier, similar to Tyson, cannot do that at his size.

[CleanYourClock]

Rubbish.

Tyson would destroy Frazier. It simply couldn't go past the 5 rounds needed to bring your misguided conclusion into existence.

:lol: Other then former 175lb champion Spinks , all of Tysons decent to very good opposition made it past the early rounds ...
I can't see why Frazier would not be able to as well ....

And yet your ignorance won't allow you to acknowledge that Tyson is allot greater in your mind then he was in real life ...

[CleanYourClock]

That's easy, because of styles.

Those guys fought more defensive and could use lateral movement, jabs from the outside, etc..

Frazier, similar to Tyson, cannot do that at his size.

This is about as legitimate as me saying Tyson can't handle fighters on the inside because of Styles and then reference Holyfield ..

C'mon man , you know better then that ....

[Erratic]

This is about as legitimate as me saying Tyson can't handle fighters on the inside because of Styles and then reference Holyfield ..

C'mon man , you know better then that ....

Holyfield didn't really fight Mike that much on the inside. He clinched Tyson a LOT (one of the reasons I say that fight is very overrated, I hate clinch-fests), and Tyson was lazy on the inside.

But Holyfield did most of his damage at mid or long range and troubled him greatly with the jab.

Same with Douglas, although he landed more uppercuts than Holyfield.

Tyson can do serious damage on the inside, while at the same time be prone to laziness. I think Frazier has the edge at close range while Tyson has it at mid range. Even then, I wonder if Tyson won't catch Frazier with some monster uppercuts.

Basically what I said earlier, the punches that Tyson was most vulnernable to, Frazier didn't really use much. The punches that have done the worst damage to Frazier, Tyson has excellent ones. Vulnerability in the early rounds is a bad weakness to have against someone like Tyson or Foreman.

It's not that Tyson is necessarily a great fighter than Frazier (he isn't), it's just that Frazier's weaknesses to me fall right into Tyson's strengths much more so than Tyson's weaknesses falling into Frazier's.

[slystaff]

:lol: Other then former 175lb champion Spinks , all of Tysons decent to very good opposition made it past the early rounds ...
I can't see why Frazier would not be able to as well ....

And yet your ignorance won't allow you to acknowledge that Tyson is allot greater in your mind then he was in real life ...

Damn, you're one ignorant mf! Foreman couldn't finish young, went 5 life and death rounds with Lyle, didn't hurt Ali once, took 10 rounds to stop Peralta...but wiped out Frazier in TWO...withouth breaking a sweat.

Why?

Because as Erratic said, Frazier was just a come forward slugger that met you head on...and didn't have a cast iron jaw. Such a guy would always get banged out by a big puncher with a good chin.

[CleanYourClock]

Damn, you're one ignorant mf! Foreman couldn't finish young, went 5 life and death rounds with Lyle, didn't hurt Ali once, took 10 rounds to stop Peralta...but wiped out Frazier in TWO...withouth breaking a sweat.

Why?

Because as Erratic said, Frazier was just a come forward slugger that met you head on...and didn't have a cast iron jaw. Such a guy would always get banged out by a big puncher with a good chin.

Yes styles .... Obviously Foremans style is completely different then Tysons so I don't know why you referenced Foreman...

Holyfield came straight at Tyson and Tyson could not do anything ...
Actually if you ask me , a fighter that comes right in on Tyson would throw him all off since the only thing he is used to seeing is other fighters in retreat trying to stay at long range ...

Your example is not very good ....

[Erratic]

Yes styles .... Obviously Foremans style is completely different then Tysons so I don't know why you referenced Foreman...

Holyfield came straight at Tyson and Tyson could not do anything ...
Actually if you ask me , a fighter that comes right in on Tyson would throw him all off since the only thing he is used to seeing is other fighters in retreat trying to stay at long range ...

Your example is not very good ....

Holyfield coming straight at Tyson?

Well, he stood his ground, just as Douglas did, but mainly beat Tyson from the outside, clinching a lot on the inside. It was a much more controlled Holyfield than we were used to seeing. He did his share of lateral movement, side-to-side.

[Hanzy]

Damn, you're one ignorant mf! Foreman couldn't finish young, went 5 life and death rounds with Lyle, didn't hurt Ali once, took 10 rounds to stop Peralta...but wiped out Frazier in TWO...withouth breaking a sweat.

Why?

Because as Erratic said, Frazier was just a come forward slugger that met you head on...and didn't have a cast iron jaw. Such a guy would always get banged out by a big puncher with a good chin.

Foreman would've murdered little Tyson in similar fashion as he did to Frazier. Little man would just get manhandled by Big George, simply pushed back and bashed to death. Even Tyson's trainer Cus knew this.

[Mean Mr Mustard]

SlyStaff - are you sure you're not putting Frazier down cos he got the better of your boy, Ali?
I know you - you get all excited about your favorite fighters and your thinking becomes blurred when you get excited.
:nono: :nono: :nono:

[slystaff]

SlyStaff - are you sure you're not putting Frazier down cos he got the better of your boy, Ali?
I know you - you get all excited about your favorite fighters and your thinking becomes blurred when you get excited.
:nono: :nono: :nono:

This post makes no sense, Mobbs.

If the fact that he beat Ali was ever a consideration of mine, I'd try to make him out to be invincible, not put him down.

[Rubio MHS]

Frazier (215lb), circa 1971 v Tyson (220lb), circa 1987.

Picks. Reasons.This topic is stupid. Frazier weighed 205 in 1971. He did get up to 215 a few years later, but he didn't carry the weight very well.

[Mean Mr Mustard]

This topic is stupid. Frazier weighed 205 in 1971. He did get up to 215 a few years later, but he didn't carry the weight very well.
Incorrect.
Late 60s Frazier fluctuated between 190-210lb.
1970s Frazier, anything between 200 - 225lb.

In comparison, Tyson, circa 1986-88 was around a similar weight: 200-230lb

[Mean Mr Mustard]

This post makes no sense, Mobbs.

If the fact that he beat Ali was ever a consideration of mine, I'd try to make him out to be invincible, not put him down.
Bad logic again.
Spinks x 1, Norton x 2.