Marciano vs. Tyson

[jaws1216]

on the homepage, and is that Monte Cox being straightforward and impartial? The two jackasses and anyone else that thinks Marciano could beat Tyson should be imprisoned and beaten to death. Marciano by the old rules would go into a comma, but today's rules it'd be an early round stoppage, with Marciano lying unconscious on the floor.

Forget my bias about this, there is absolutely 0 ways that Marciano could beat Tyson in any fashion, 0.

[Tam Tam]

Marciano was twice the fighter Tyson was.

As for who'd win? Take that to the MM forum and waste your time bitching about it there.

[Orthodox Crusader]

on the homepage, and is that Monte Cox being straightforward and impartial? The two jackasses and anyone else that thinks Marciano could beat Tyson should be imprisoned and beaten to death. Marciano by the old rules would go into a comma, but today's rules it'd be an early round stoppage, with Marciano lying unconscious on the floor.

Forget my bias about this, there is absolutely 0 ways that Marciano could beat Tyson in any fashion, 0.


If this relates to a fightbeat.com article post the link here otherwise someone like Faintin' Gerry Payton will do something really unhelpful and move the thread to mythical matchups.


PS......Tyson could never fight from a downside. Once you got him, you had him.

[jaws1216]

visit the homepage:nono:

marciano would have a chance in hell like Rubio has a chance winning a beauty pagaent

[Orthodox Crusader]

post the link here or I'll ask for your thread to be moved. I only have 1024MB of Ram I ain't opening new pages manually.

[godking]

Marciano has nothing over Tyson except heart.

Tyson gets discouraged when he cannot land cleanly on you not when you ''stand up'' to him like so many fools believe.

Douglas and Holyfield beat Tyson by frustrating him jabbing him and clinching at the right times.

Tyson would be landing on Rocky at will. Rocky on the other hand with his relativelly slow handspeed would have a lot of trouble landing cleanly on Tyson.

Tyson wins by UD .

[Ugotabe Kidding]

For once I agreed completely with Monte Cox' take, though I am still not convinced about the levitation part

[dsimon3387]

dsimon writes:

A couple of good points in the Cox article. He is absolutely right about Dempsey and Marciano... very different styles. Holyfield is a pedegree of Marciano and Tyson a pedigree of Dempsey.

I also think most boxing people agree that Marciano fought at a time when the division was weak.

[TFK]

Marciano has been dead for quite a while. No way he beats Tyson these days.

TFK

[CasperUK]

Tyson outweighed Marciano by 40lbs.

He was bigger, stronger, faster and had more power too (IMO). He was also much more skilled and had a better defence. He was, simply put, a better ring technician.

The only thing Marciano possesses over Tyson is heart. But hey, Clifford Etienne had hard too and that didn't stop him getting banged out in 49 seconds.

Tyson has beaten 5'10-6'6 200-260lbs men with ease. Some of these men were incredibly well schooled athletes, some had great power, chins, heart, skills and determination.

To say that a 5'9, 185lb man (who would be a cruiserweight by today's standards in all fairness) would beat a 5'11, 220lb finely tuned athlete with amazing power, speed, skills, reflexes and defence who was the most feared, brutal and intimidating HW of all time is irresponsible, not to mention outright moronic.

People get too sentimental when it comes to old time fighters. Time to put down the rose-tinted spectacles and face reality. There are very few HWs out there who could have beaten a prime, focused 1986-1988 Mike Tyson no matter how much skill, heart, power or chin they had. Infact, I only pick Ali to beat Mike Tyson. The rest will get beaten.
________
Vapir air one vaporizer (http://vaporizers.net/vapir-air-one)

[Dollar-Fifty78]

on the homepage, and is that Monte Cox being straightforward and impartial? The two jackasses and anyone else that thinks Marciano could beat Tyson should be imprisoned and beaten to death. Marciano by the old rules would go into a comma, but today's rules it'd be an early round stoppage, with Marciano lying unconscious on the floor.

Forget my bias about this, there is absolutely 0 ways that Marciano could beat Tyson in any fashion, 0.
Like Pavlik had no chance in beating Miranda uh?:rolleyes:
Everyone has a chance at something.

[Rocco]

5'11, 220lb finely tuned athlete with amazing power, speed, skills, reflexes and defence who was the most feared, brutal and intimidating HW of all time

People get too sentimental when it comes to old time fighters.

Sounds like your headed down that path!

[Dollar-Fifty78]

Sounds like your headed down that path!
:lol:

[Hanzy]

Like Pavlik had no chance in beating Miranda uh?:rolleyes:
Everyone has a chance at something.

:clap: Damn right. I don't know why people are just completely written off just because they fought in another era or cause they're a bit smaller.:dunno:

[Ugotabe Kidding]

:clap: Damn right. I don't know why people are just completely written off just because they fought in another era or cause they're a bit smaller.:dunno:

Yeah, just because a guy is much slower, 35lbs lighter and has out-dated techniques shouldn't mean a disadvantage

[Rocco]

out-dated techniques

:dunno:

How could Rocky of had any advantage (legally) that is available today? Rocky was in better shape than any heavyweight today, Rocky had more stamina than any heavyweight today, what new technique developed in boxing could've improved him?

[steve_dave]

:dunno:

How could Rocky of had any advantage (legally) that is available today? Rocky was in better shape than any heavyweight today, Rocky had more stamina than any heavyweight today, what new technique developed in boxing could've improved him?

He wouldn't have been a heavyweight today.

[Hanzy]

Yeah, just because a guy is much slower, 35lbs lighter and has out-dated techniques shouldn't mean a disadvantage

If he was fighting in today's time, he'd be a more advanced fighter.

[Hanzy]

He wouldn't have been a heavyweight today.

He could easily bulk up I bet.

[steve_dave]

He could easily bulk up I bet.

Yeah... and then he would be a slow, bulky, small heavyweight.

[Rocco]

He wouldn't have been a heavyweight today.

He would of had up to date techniques by not being a heavyweight today?

[Azazel]

Tyson would rape Marcianno

[steve_dave]

He would of had up to date techniques by not being a heavyweight today?

Cool question.

[REEDsART]

Tyson outweighed Marciano by 40lbs.

He was bigger, stronger, faster and had more power too (IMO). He was also much more skilled and had a better defence. He was, simply put, a better ring technician.

The only thing Marciano possesses over Tyson is heart. But hey, Clifford Etienne had hard too and that didn't stop him getting banged out in 49 seconds.

Tyson has beaten 5'10-6'6 200-260lbs men with ease. Some of these men were incredibly well schooled athletes, some had great power, chins, heart, skills and determination.

To say that a 5'9, 185lb man (who would be a cruiserweight by today's standards in all fairness) would beat a 5'11, 220lb finely tuned athlete with amazing power, speed, skills, reflexes and defence who was the most feared, brutal and intimidating HW of all time is irresponsible, not to mention outright moronic.

People get too sentimental when it comes to old time fighters. Time to put down the rose-tinted spectacles and face reality. There are very few HWs out there who could have beaten a prime, focused 1986-1988 Mike Tyson no matter how much skill, heart, power or chin they had. Infact, I only pick Ali to beat Mike Tyson. The rest will get beaten.:clap: Good Post...


REED:cool:

[Double L]

Teddy Atlas has Larry Holmes in his top 10 all-time heavyweights, below Rocky Marciano. And yet, according to many, Rocky wasn't able to carry Holme's jock-strap. Can anyone help me reconcile? Or is Teddy just an idiot?

[REEDsART]

Teddy Atlas has Larry Holmes in his top 10 all-time heavyweights, below Rocky Marciano. And yet, according to many, Rocky wasn't able to carry Holme's jock-strap. Can anyone help me reconcile? Or is Teddy just an idiot?Teddy's ANOTHER Sort that just ASSumes ANY Old School,Black & White Era Fighter would have his WAY w/ANY Contemporary Fighter...

N EVERY Single OTHER Sport,the Athletes Get BETTER Over Time,but Apparently,Boxing is the Exception...



REED:rolleyes:

[Double L]

Teddy's ANOTHER Sort that just ASSumes ANY Old School,Black & White Era Fighter would have his WAY w/ANY Contemporary Fighter...

N EVERY Single OTHER Sport,the Athletes Get BETTER Over Time,but Apparently,Boxing is the Exception...



REED:rolleyes:

I think he's an idiot. No Mike Tyson. No Lennox Lewis. But he has Gene Tunney? And Jack Dempsey.

[Ugotabe Kidding]

I think he's an idiot. No Mike Tyson. No Lennox Lewis. But he has Gene Tunney? And Jack Dempsey.

I guess he is comparing them on basis of how good they were complared to their own timers. For example Tunney's techniques were far ahead of most of his opponents. At least, this is the only even almost logical reason to rank him over Tyson or Lewis

[dsimon3387]

Teddy's ANOTHER Sort that just ASSumes ANY Old School,Black & White Era Fighter would have his WAY w/ANY Contemporary Fighter...

N EVERY Single OTHER Sport,the Athletes Get BETTER Over Time,but Apparently,Boxing is the Exception...



REED:rolleyes:

dsimon writes:

Truthfully I don't know why people can't just look at this issue on a case by case basis. Boxing is a sport that has changed a lot, but not necessarily evolved. If baseball evolved like boxing did games would be 5 innings and the bats would be bigger!:lol:

In this case quite a few people didn't even read Cox's article at least not the one I read where Cox so much as said that Tyson would beat Marciano.

[dsimon3387]

I guess he is comparing them on basis of how good they were complared to their own timers. For example Tunney's techniques were far ahead of most of his opponents. At least, this is the only even almost logical reason to rank him over Tyson or Lewis

dsimon writes:

These comparisons should always be qualified. For example: Could Tunney have beat Ray Mercer? Quite a few people would probably say that he would have. Mercer decisioned Lewis in the eyes of many people.

[Ugotabe Kidding]

dsimon writes:

Truthfully I don't know why people can't just look at this issue on a case by case basis. Boxing is a sport that has changed a lot, but not necessarily evolved. If baseball evolved like boxing did games would be 5 innings and the bats would be bigger!:lol:

In this case quite a few people didn't even read Cox's article at least not the one I read where Cox so much as said that Tyson would beat Marciano.

Baseball is not an actual sport but guys are bigger there also. Just think about it: if it was possible for 185lbs midgets to compete at heavyweight these days by just having more stamina than the real heavyweights, wouldn't you assume that at least someone would do it?

[mexican wedding shirt]

Tyson would hammer the shit out of Marciano. Bags of heart or not, Marciano would be dispatched in 4 rounds.

Can you imagine the smaller, weaker, no defense, slower marciano coming forward throwing punches against tyson? Doing the only thing he knows how? It would be brutal, it would be a pinklon thomas style beatdown, except being as small as marciano was, I am not even sure he could take as many flush shots as pinklon did.

Anyone who seriously thinks marciano woudl win has either never seen marciano fight, forgot how good prime tyson was, loves marciano, or hates tyson with a passion.

[dsimon3387]

Baseball is not an actual sport but guys are bigger there also. Just think about it: if it was possible for 185lbs midgets to compete at heavyweight these days by just having more stamina than the real heavyweights, wouldn't you assume that at least someone would do it?

dsimon writes:

Ugo it has nothing to do with stamina per se. It has to do with the wider range of techniqes, strategies, fighting distances, etc that figure into combatives when they are less removed from reality. There are a lot of things that fighters do that cannot be seen on a tv set. That is the point that people that don't have some entree to a fighting art don't seem to get. Floyd looks a lot like Spinks but his distancing, footwork, counter attacks are ona totally different order (for example).

I will throw your question back at you the following way. If every fighter could be dr Strange Love's Corey Spinks 24 hour trained taibo king why don't more guys learn how to throw a jab and a few combos and get in the ring with size and strength?

[CleanYourClock]

In roughly the same amount of fights , Bottom line is that Tyson lost to Kevin McBride , Danny Williams , Buster Douglas ...
Not to mention he lost two fights to Holyfield and one to Lewis ...
So really Tyson lost to every elite fighter he ever faced barring a fat old Holmes and former 175lb Spinks ... He is also a known quitter ...

Marciano on the other hand defeated every fighter put in front of him and retired still champion of the world ...

This does not say that Marciano could beat Tyson , However it does say that Marciano DESERVES and should always get a higher spot on ANY top heavyweight list .....
Though I would never bet on it and would never defend or agree with any statement saying Marciano could beat Tyson , the thought of Marciano defeating Tyson is not unthinkable like many like to believe ...

[dsimon3387]

In roughly the same amount of fights , Bottom line is that Tyson lost to Kevin McBride , Danny Williams , Buster Douglas ...
Not to mention he lost two fights to Holyfield and one to Lewis ...
So really Tyson lost to every elite fighter he ever faced barring a fat old Holmes and former 175lb Spinks ... He is also a known quitter ...

Marciano on the other hand defeated every fighter put in front of him and retired still champion of the world ...

This does not say that Marciano could beat Tyson , However it does say that Marciano DESERVES and should always get a higher spot on ANY top heavyweight list .....
Though I would never bet on it and would never defend or agree with any statement saying Marciano could beat Tyson , the thought of Marciano defeating Tyson is not unthinkable like many like to believe ...

dsimon writes:

Good post. :bears:

[Hanzy]

I love that whole bullsh*t about 'Only Ali had a chance against a prime focused 86-88 Tyson.":rolleyes:
F*cking joke Buster Douglas whipped his overrated ass, jabbed the sh*t out of him and knocked his ass out in his prime. Hell, George Foreman and Holyfield would've bust his ass up too. Tyson was an intimidator, dude looked ordinary as sh*t when he couldn't scare the hell out of an opponent. Best opponent on his record was a semi-retired rusty saggy 37 year old Holmes.

[Rocco]

I love the entire Tyson was so skilled crap and the only thing Rocky had was heart. :lol: Well consider boxing has to be close to 90% heart, 10% skill. If Tyson would of had the heart Rocky did, what would his career of looked like? Now if Rocky would of had the heart Tyson had what would his career had looked like?

[slystaff]

Tyson KO 4

Too big, too strong, too fast, too powerful, too much chin.

Sure....Marciano has better stamina and heart, but those two factors are irrelevant when so come forward bangers meet face to face in such a potentially FIERCE firefight. It simply wont go far enough for those two things to matter. The man with the bigger, badder guns wins.

Simple and plain.

[slystaff]

Best opponent on his record was a semi-retired rusty saggy 37 year old Holmes.

Who came back FOUR years later to defeat an undefeated Ray Mercer and go the distance with PRIME Evander Holyfield.

TO this day, Tyson is the only one to have Stopped Holmes!

Tyson is underrated nowadays...but when the man was in his prime he was as talented as any heavyweight in history.

[jaws1216]

Well consider boxing has to be close to 90% heart, 10% skill. If Tyson would of had the heart Rocky did, what would his career of looked like? Now if Rocky would of had the heart Tyson had what would his career had looked like?

This is the dumbest post of the year

[Tam Tam]

You can be quite annoying.

[Alabama_Man]

Jimmy "seven teeth" Wicksburg would beat the shit out of both of these guys. He's #3 all-time at 118.

[jaws1216]

You can be quite annoying.

does the truth hurt:nono:

Marciano would get murdered

[winner by choke]

boxing is in no way shape or form 90% heart.

95% skill 5% heart.

every top tier guy has a similar skill set which is why heart comes into play.

if it was 90% will, bar room brawlers would be able to come in a give boxers good fights.

[Rocco]

This is the dumbest post of the year

You say it's the dumbest post of the year and yet you give no reason at all so I can only take this as you don't think BOXING requires more heart than skills and you are WRONG!

Many of the best trainers of all time were asked what they would rather have, a fighter with heart or a fighter with skill, guess what? They chose heart.

If you have a fighter with heart but not much skill, you have a good fighter, if you have a fighter with skill and heart you have a great fighter, if you have a skilled fighter with no heart you don't have shit.

If skill means as much as you think it does where is Tyson? And if Tyson is indeed the most skilled heavyweight of all time then how could Buster Douglas humiliate him so easily?

[REEDsART]

Tyson would hammer the shit out of Marciano. Bags of heart or not, Marciano would be dispatched in 4 rounds.

Can you imagine the smaller, weaker, no defense, slower marciano coming forward throwing punches against tyson? Doing the only thing he knows how? It would be brutal, it would be a pinklon thomas style beatdown, except being as small as marciano was, I am not even sure he could take as many flush shots as pinklon did.

Anyone who seriously thinks marciano woudl win has either never seen marciano fight, forgot how good prime tyson was, loves marciano, or hates tyson with a passion.'Nother Good Post...

Bottom Line,Marciano was Great FOR HIS ERA...A PRIME Mike Tyson is a TERRIBLE Matchup for Marciano...

REED has NO Problem w/Marciano Being Ranked AHEAD of Tyson on the All-Time Lists,but NO Way does he BEAT Tyson Head-to-Head...

As Tyson HIMSELF would say,"That's Totatally Ludicrisp"

REED:nono:

[REEDsART]

You say it's the dumbest post of the year and yet you give no reason at all so I can only take this as you don't think BOXING requires more heart than skills and you are WRONG!

Many of the best trainers of all time were asked what they would rather have, a fighter with heart or a fighter with skill, guess what? They chose heart.

If you have a fighter with heart but not much skill, you have a good fighter, if you have a fighter with skill and heart you have a great fighter, if you have a skilled fighter with no heart you don't have shit.

If skill means as much as you think it does where is Tyson? And if Tyson is indeed the most skilled heavyweight of all time then how could Buster Douglas humiliate him so easily?If Heart was Worth even HALF as Much as U're Saying,Guys like Gatti,Ward,Saad Muhammad & Many Others(who Lost COUNTLESS #'s of Times)would B UNdefeated...

Would ANYBODY Argue that Zab Judah & Floyd Mayweather have MORE Heart than Mickey Ward or Arturo Gatti???...No...

Yet,Judah & Mayweather EASILY Defeated Ward & Gatti...SUPERIOR Technique,SUPERIOR SKILL...

Just as SIZE Can Eventually OVERCOME Skill,or just like HEART can Eventually OVERCOME Skill,the INVERSE of this is ALSO True...

This ISN'T Baseball where Good PITCHING Always Beats Good HITTING...N Boxing,Heart DOES NOT Always Win:nono: ...

Sorry...

REED:cool:

[Rubio MHS]

If Marciano survived the first four rounds, he'd beat Tyson, either by outworking him or knocking him out. It's debatable as to which man hit harder - there are psi tests that suggest Marciano did, for what they're worth - but Marciano threw much more punches, and didn't slow down after 4 rounds.

[REEDsART]

If Marciano survived the first four rounds, he'd beat Tyson, either by outworking him or knocking him out. It's debatable as to which man hit harder - there are psi tests that suggest Marciano did, for what they're worth - but Marciano threw much more punches, and didn't slow down after 4 rounds.agREED...

If Marciano Gets Past Round 4,even REED would Give him a 50/50 Chance of BEATING Tyson...But that would B 4 Rounds of Complete HELL that he'd have to Make it Thru...

As for Who HITS Harder??...If Tyson Wore those BARELY PADDED Gloves of Marciano's Era,Give REED Tyson...If Marcianio Wore the Significantly MORE PADDED Gloves of Today,Give REED Tyson...



REED:cool:

[Rocco]

boxing is in no way shape or form 90% heart.

95% skill 5% heart.

every top tier guy has a similar skill set which is why heart comes into play.

if it was 90% will, bar room brawlers would be able to come in a give boxers good fights.

You think bar room brawlers have heart? :lol:

[winner by choke]

yes, many of them are tougher than fighters who would easily smash them in a boxing ring.

i box and train in brazilian jiu jitsu at least 3 times a week and can tell u heart means very little unless the skill set is near even.

u can throw me in with floyd mayweather and tell me if i lose my family will be murdered and he can not care and still kick my ass even though i have 2352354 times the heart.

[Rocco]

yes, many of them are tougher than fighters who would easily smash them in a boxing ring.

i box and train in brazilian jiu jitsu at least 3 times a week and can tell u heart means very little unless the skill set is near even.

u can throw me in with floyd mayweather and tell me if i lose my family will be murdered and he can not care and still kick my ass even though i have 2352354 times the heart.
How did Buster beat Tyson?
How did Evander beat Tyson?
How did Fulmer beat SRR?
etc.
etc.
etc.

I can't help your frame of mind on your imaginery ass whooping to Floyd, but I'd be willing to bet not many thought a skill less bum like Fulmer could beat the P4P all time greatest fighter and yet he did. Personally I don't care how much skill a person has if he doesn't have the heart to go with it. Like I said, if a fighter has both, he's a rare great fighter if a skilled fighter has no heart, he's worthless.

[Rubio MHS]

How did Buster beat Tyson?Easy. If you neutralize Tyson's left hook and right uppercut, he's vulnerable. Douglas outjabbed Tyson on the outside, landed the right, and simply stepped away from Tyson's bigger shots.

How did Evander beat Tyson?Easy. If you neutralize Tyson's left hook and right upppercut, he's vulnerable. Holyfield threw straight shots on the outside, and on the inside, clutched and led with his head. Tyson was helpless.

How did Fulmer beat SRR? Easy. He outworked him. Robinson was far past his prime, and unable to throw as many punches as he did in his prime.

I can't help your frame of mind on your imaginery ass whooping to Floyd, but I'd be willing to bet not many thought a skill less bum like Fulmer could beat the P4P all time greatest fighter and yet he did. Personally I don't care how much skill a person has if he doesn't have the heart to go with it. Like I said, if a fighter has both, he's a rare great fighter if a skilled fighter has no heart, he's worthless.This part is stupid. You really don't understand boxing. You can't compare the Robinson of 1947 to the Floyd Mayweather of 2007, simply because Floyd Mayweather isn't 36; he's 30. You can't compare Mayweather to Tyson, because Mayweather's simply a better fighter.

[winner by choke]

fights are not won on heart,they are won on skill.

there are countless guys in the gym who breathe boxing or jiu jitsu but just aren't very good and they get smashed on by guys who have no dedication and are just better...period.

[slystaff]

If Heart was Worth even HALF as Much as U're Saying,Guys like Gatti,Ward,Saad Muhammad & Many Others(who Lost COUNTLESS #'s of Times)would B UNdefeated...

Would ANYBODY Argue that Zab Judah & Floyd Mayweather have MORE Heart than Mickey Ward or Arturo Gatti???...No...

Yet,Judah & Mayweather EASILY Defeated Ward & Gatti...SUPERIOR Technique,SUPERIOR SKILL...

Just as SIZE Can Eventually OVERCOME Skill,or just like HEART can Eventually OVERCOME Skill,the INVERSE of this is ALSO True...

This ISN'T Baseball where Good PITCHING Always Beats Good HITTING...N Boxing,Heart DOES NOT Always Win:nono: ...

Sorry...

REED:cool:

well said.

[Rocco]

Unreal, it's hard for me to believe so many on these boards think the hardest sport in the world requires little heart. :notallthere:

[Rocco]

My quote:

I can't help your frame of mind on your imaginery ass whooping to Floyd, but I'd be willing to bet not many thought a skill less bum like Fulmer could beat the P4P all time greatest fighter and yet he did. Personally I don't care how much skill a person has if he doesn't have the heart to go with it. Like I said, if a fighter has both, he's a rare great fighter if a skilled fighter has no heart, he's worthless.

Your response:

This part is stupid. You really don't understand boxing. You can't compare the Robinson of 1947 to the Floyd Mayweather of 2007, simply because Floyd Mayweather isn't 36; he's 30. You can't compare Mayweather to Tyson, because Mayweather's simply a better fighter.

I don't understand boxing? Okay, I guess after following the sport for 35 years and being trained by a professional simply leaves my knowledge of the sport as "stupid". I don't come to boxing boards much for this very reason, a debate always leads to someone copping out by name calling and you really get nowhere. Personally I'm not really concerned with your credentials of the sport as your a poster here so I can only assume me and you have something in common, we both love boxing. Now, back to the post if possible, where exactly did I make a comarison of Robinson to Floyd? That was not my intention, my intention was only to say "Skill does not always win a boxing match". If it does, then I'd imagine you are 100% right in your picks and are a very rich man.

[jaws1216]

how come you arent a household name and zab judah is. Does Zab have more heart in the ring than you or the thousands of others who never make it big?...or is he just more skilled?

[Rocco]

how come you arent a household name and zab judah is. Does Zab have more heart in the ring than you or the thousands of others who never make it big?...or is he just more skilled?

I'm not a professional fighter, I found getting punched in the face every day not to my liking besides that Zab is young enough to be my son.

Now I have a few questions for you, please "no spin"

Who has more skill, Zab or Baldomir?
Who has more skill, Zab or Kostya?
What happened to the UBER skilled Michael Grant?
How about Dominick Guinn who was claimed to be one of the most promising skilled heavyweights in a long time?
How did the two left footed Gene Fulmer become champion?
Who has more talent, Ezzard Charles or Rocky Marciano?
How did Joe Frazier beat Ali, was he more skilled than Ali?


I'm not saying or have never said skill doesn't have it's place, it does but not so much as heart (determination, drive or whatever you wanna call it). Does Zab and Floyd have heart? Hell yeah they do, but as much as Ward or Gatti? Maybe, how can we know for sure. I say yes, they do especially Floyd, he's a workaholic, a perfectionist, that takes heart. I'm not just talking about getting punched in the face and keep coming forward, I'm talking "HEART".

[jaws1216]

I'm not a professional fighter, I found getting punched in the face every day not to my liking besides that Zab is young enough to be my son.

Now I have a few questions for you, please "no spin"

Who has more skill, Zab or Baldomir?
Who has more skill, Zab or Kostya?
What happened to the UBER skilled Michael Grant?
How about Dominick Guinn who was claimed to be one of the most promising skilled heavyweights in a long time?
How did the two left footed Gene Fulmer become champion?
Who has more talent, Ezzard Charles or Rocky Marciano?
How did Joe Frazier beat Ali, was he more skilled than Ali?


I'm not saying or have never said skill doesn't have it's place, it does but not so much as heart (determination, drive or whatever you wanna call it). Does Zab and Floyd have heart? Hell yeah they do, but as much as Ward or Gatti? Maybe, how can we know for sure. I say yes, they do especially Floyd, he's a workaholic, a perfectionist, that takes heart. I'm not just talking about getting punched in the face and keep coming forward, I'm talking "HEART".

TERRIBLE analogies.

Floyd does not win fights on heart, he wins them on talent. Who had more heart Floyd or Chico, Floyd or Gatti. Now how aout Judah or Ward? Most top level guys have similar skill sets, fights aren't fucking determined by heart, they're determined by clashing styles. Tell me for one fuckig second Kelly Pavlik beat the hell out of Miranda because he had more heart. You can't, Miranda has "heart" from here to the moon, but he also has a poor defense and can't fight off the back foot. How did Marciano beat Charles?...with pressure and taking advantage of Charles' age and the rules of his time that allowed that first fight to continue.

Michael Grant and Dominick Guinn seem to lack the motivation to be top tier guys, but so did Riddick Bowe when he got to the top. How come he was able to beat Holyfield in their third fight, did he have more "heart" than Holyfield?

Stupidly, you are assuing boxing is about who wants it more, when the reality is at the top level everyone can fight and its almost always the case that styles make fights. These guys that come in face first and give and take punishment that u love so dearly, do so because if they tried to fight like the Ray Leonard's of the world they'd get annihilated in every fight. They use their strengths, and with that the styles produced usually determines who wins or loses. Heart may make a difference in some fights, but it wasn't heart that let Ray Leonard come back against Tommy Hearns, it was better conditioning, the skills to break him down, the technical ability to get in behind Tommy's jab and finish him off.

[Erratic]

Who has more skill, Zab or Baldomir?


Zab.



Who has more skill, Zab or Kostya?


Tszyu does, IMO. Judah may be more physically gifted with his speed and athleticism but Tszyu was a better boxer. He was a pinpoint boxer who threw short accurate punches, and had terrific timing and sense of distance. His performance against Tackie was a better display of skillful boxing than I've ever seen Judah put on.



What happened to the UBER skilled Michael Grant?


He had a weak chin and psyche, crap defense, and his skills were only decent anyway.



How about Dominick Guinn who was claimed to be one of the most promising skilled heavyweights in a long time?


He's a lazy fighter with no passion. He probably spent too long in the ammys anyway.



How did the two left footed Gene Fulmer become champion?


Because he was a tough, strong, determined guy. And his skills weren't bad, either.



Who has more talent, Ezzard Charles or Rocky Marciano?


Charles. What's your point? Marciano may have beaten him but Charles is generally regarded historically as the greater fighter all-time anyway. He has a superior resume to Marciano.



How did Joe Frazier beat Ali, was he more skilled than Ali?


One of Ali's weaknesses (left hook vulnerability) played into one of Frazier's biggest strengths. Frazier wasn't exactly a skill-less guy himself, and Ali had a huge heart just like Joe did.

[Rocco]

That's a great post erratic!

I agree with all of it but do have one question concerning Grant, you claim "He had a weak chin and psyche, crap defense, and his skills were only decent" I understand the chin, psyche (heart?), crap defense, but skills is what we are talking about here and you said his were only decent, so I ask, did you claim or know this pre Lewis fight? I remember most thinking Grant was "IT".

[Rocco]

TERRIBLE analogies.
Michael Grant and Dominick Guinn seem to lack the motivation

Hence what I said originally, if a fighter has talent but no heart (lack motivation) they are shit.
If a fighter has heart but not much skilled they are a good fighter (Gatti, Ward, Coralles, etc.). If a fighter has talent and heart they are a great fighter (Ali, Floyd, SRR, etc. etc.). You guys seem to think Ward has more heart than Floyd, how so? I don't see it that way at all.

Determination is what makes a person great! If you don't believe that than you've already lost.

[jaws1216]

Hence what I said originally, if a fighter has talent but no heart (lack motivation) they are shit.
If a fighter has heart but not much skilled they are a good fighter (Gatti, Ward, Coralles, etc.). If a fighter has talent and heart they are a great fighter (Ali, Floyd, SRR, etc. etc.). You guys seem to think Ward has more heart than Floyd, how so? I don't see it that way at all.

Determination is what makes a person great! If you don't believe that than you've already lost.

and so what exactly makes u think Mike Tyson wasn't determined?

That fresh prime motivated Mike Tyson that fought Thomas, Holmes, Spinks, etc. hell even the one that fought Razor Ruddock and Holyfield would obliterate Marciano.

all the determination in the world wouldn't let LaMotta beat Robinson 5 times, and all the determination marciano would muster could get him to the 3rd round, maybe.

[Rocco]

Mike was determined, I'm not saying he wasn't, but what happens when Rocky lands an elbow or a strong right hand? Does Mike do what Mike's done his entire career? Buster took no shit from Mike and look what happened? Evander took no shit from Mike and look what happened? Mike himself has said several times that he hated fighting and there's strong evidence that what he said is true throughout his entire career.

Rocky's never been seriously hurt in 49 heavyweight fights and yet he's not going to make it past the 3rd round against a guy who's known to have trouble when someone doesn't get ko'd right away?

We can say Rocky's too small and just dismiss it at that however how could we explain Ali having so much trouble with Jones, or Louis having trouble with Conn, or Liston having trouble with Marshall, etc.

Whenever we talk about all time matchups it's always a good fight except when it comes to Rocky, he always gets dismissed early except by experts. I guess if it's all about size then we could easily say a guy like Lewis would KO Tyson within 3 rounds if he's lucky enough to make it that far correct?

[jaws1216]

Mike was determined, I'm not saying he wasn't, but what happens when Rocky lands an elbow or a strong right hand? Does Mike do what Mike's done his entire career? Buster took no shit from Mike and look what happened? Evander took no shit from Mike and look what happened? Mike himself has said several times that he hated fighting and there's strong evidence that what he said is true throughout his entire career.

Rocky's never been seriously hurt in 49 heavyweight fights and yet he's not going to make it past the 3rd round against a guy who's known to have trouble when someone doesn't get ko'd right away?

We can say Rocky's too small and just dismiss it at that however how could we explain Ali having so much trouble with Jones, or Louis having trouble with Conn, or Liston having trouble with Marshall, etc.

Whenever we talk about all time matchups it's always a good fight except when it comes to Rocky, he always gets dismissed early except by experts. I guess if it's all about size then we could easily say a guy like Lewis would KO Tyson within 3 rounds if he's lucky enough to make it that far correct?

Jones troubled Ali with Pressure, Conn troubled Louis with movement, et.

Marciano CANT force Tyson to fight off his back foot like Holyfeidl and Douglas did because he's fucking 185lbs, how hard is that to understand. Kely Pavlik beat Miranda for alot of reasons, and one of them was the way he forced Miranda to the ropes, and into a position that he couldn't fight from.

You think one right hand from a 185lb guy is gonna rock Tyson so much. He kept coming forward against LENNOX LEWIS after taking hundreds of shots, and not even cruiserweight Marciano is gonna rock his psyche?

Thats just a fucking stupid argument. Styles make fights, and stylistically Tyson would MURDER Marciano.

As to ur crap about marciano never being hurt, he sure w dropped by 40 year old fellow light-heavyweights/cruiserweights. If u can't see that those kind of punches from Tyson would hurt/KO him then you've being severely unreasonable

[Alabama_Man]

Mike was determined, I'm not saying he wasn't, but what happens when Rocky lands an elbow or a strong right hand? Does Mike do what Mike's done his entire career? Buster took no shit from Mike and look what happened? Evander took no shit from Mike and look what happened? Mike himself has said several times that he hated fighting and there's strong evidence that what he said is true throughout his entire career.

Rocky's never been seriously hurt in 49 heavyweight fights and yet he's not going to make it past the 3rd round against a guy who's known to have trouble when someone doesn't get ko'd right away?

We can say Rocky's too small and just dismiss it at that however how could we explain Ali having so much trouble with Jones, or Louis having trouble with Conn, or Liston having trouble with Marshall, etc.

Whenever we talk about all time matchups it's always a good fight except when it comes to Rocky, he always gets dismissed early except by experts. I guess if it's all about size then we could easily say a guy like Lewis would KO Tyson within 3 rounds if he's lucky enough to make it that far correct?

Marciano is the greatest bum of all-time. He got put on queer street by a senior citizen Jersey Joe Walcott. Marciano made his name by beating near-40 year old fighters. I can't believe how overrated this bum is. An in prime Chris Byrd would've beat Marciano by late stoppage or blow out decision.

[Rocco]

Rocky was dropped for 2 seconds against a HALL OF FAMER. Ali was nearly KNOCKED OUT by 185lb Henry Cooper. Sonny Liston had his jaw broken and lost to 180lb Marshall but of course that is all different correct? Of course it's different, difference being Rocky went down by a hall of famer whereas Liston and Ali went down by virtual nobodies and so what do we do? Dismiss Rocky of course.

[Alabama_Man]

Rocky was dropped for 2 seconds against a HALL OF FAMER. Ali was nearly KNOCKED OUT by 185lb Henry Cooper. Sonny Liston had his jaw broken and lost to 180lb Marshall but of course that is all different correct? Of course it's different, difference being Rocky went down by a hall of famer whereas Liston and Ali went down by virtual nobodies and so what do we do? Dismiss Rocky of course.

That Hall of famer had kidney stones and two bad knees going into that fight. He was also near his 40s. Marciano was a bum.

[jaws1216]

Rocky was dropped for 2 seconds against a HALL OF FAMER. Ali was nearly KNOCKED OUT by 185lb Henry Cooper. Sonny Liston had his jaw broken and lost to 180lb Marshall but of course that is all different correct? Of course it's different, difference being Rocky went down by a hall of famer whereas Liston and Ali went down by virtual nobodies and so what do we do? Dismiss Rocky of course.

this is complete bias. I'm claiming that Tyson would brutalize Marciano because of his abilities and style. What the fuck do Liston and Ali have to do with Tyson?

A 185lb fighter with poor defense and slow movement would not beat Mike Tyson in 10000000 tries

[Rocco]

That Hall of famer had kidney stones and two bad knees going into that fight. He was also near his 40s. Marciano was a bum.
Do you have any input or is this all you got?

[Alabama_Man]

Do you have any input or is this all you got?

So beating an old man with health problems is a great accomplishment? :dunno:

That only proves how much of a bum Marciano was.

[Rocco]

So beating an old man with health problems is a great accomplishment? :dunno:

That only proves how much of a bum Marciano was.

So you got nothing huh? Guess we'll move on.....

[Alabama_Man]

Guess we'll move on.....

That's usually what someone says when they can't address a valid point. :clap:

Marciano's bum status is confirmed.

[Rocco]

Rocky Marciano wins UNDISPUTED heavyweight title from hall of famer.
Rocky Marciano defends UNDISPUTED heavyweight title 6 times.
Rocky Marciano defeats 4 hall of fame fighters
Rocky Marciano retires with a PERFECT record of 49-0.


Marciano is the greatest bum of all-time.

Name all the other bums who've accomplished this.


Like I said, guess we're done here......

[Alabama_Man]

Rocky Marciano wins UNDISPUTED heavyweight title from hall of famer.
Rocky Marciano defends UNDISPUTED heavyweight title 6 times.
Rocky Marciano defeats 4 hall of fame fighters
Rocky Marciano retires with a PERFECT record of 49-0.



Rocky beat an old hall of famer with health problems. That's like giving credit to Joey Archer for beating Ray Robinson.

Many heavyweights have defended the undisputed title for 6+ times and against younger competition. Walcott and Moore were in their or near their 40s. Being 49-0 doesn't mean much when you're fighting bums and old men.

It's too bad Marciano didn't stick around for another year because Floyd Patterson would've destroyed this bum. Then we wouldn't have shitty threads like this.



Like I said, guess we're done here......

School is out.

[Rocco]

Rocky beat an old hall of famer with health problems. That's like giving credit to Joey Archer for beating Ray Robinson.

Many heavyweights have defended the undisputed title for 6+ times and against younger competition. Walcott and Moore were in their or near their 40s. Being 49-0 doesn't mean much when you're fighting bums and old men.

It's too bad Marciano didn't stick around for another year because Floyd Patterson would've destroyed this bum. Then we wouldn't have shitty threads like this.




School is out.

Ya'll musta forgot to answer.


Rocky Marciano wins UNDISPUTED heavyweight title from hall of famer.
Rocky Marciano defends UNDISPUTED heavyweight title 6 times.
Rocky Marciano defeats 4 hall of fame fighters
Rocky Marciano retires with a PERFECT record of 49-0.

Name all the other bums who've accomplished this.

[Alabama_Man]

Ya'll musta forgot to answer.

Is that even english?

John Ruiz has fought and beat better competition than Marciano and he is the king of Heavyweight bums.

[Rocco]

John Ruiz != Undefeated
John Ruiz != Undisputed

Just details though right?

[Alabama_Man]

John Ruiz != Undefeated
John Ruiz != Undisputed

Just details though right?

If Ruiz fought the old men Marciano did he would be undefeated and undisputed. You know in boxing, competition matters right?

[CleanYourClock]

Marciano is the greatest bum of all-time. He got put on queer street by a senior citizen Jersey Joe Walcott. Marciano made his name by beating near-40 year old fighters. I can't believe how overrated this bum is. An in prime Chris Byrd would've beat Marciano by late stoppage or blow out decision.

Dumbest post ever !!!!

I have no problem when people discredit or talk about how or why Marciano would lose but , this post is out right stupid ...

Marciano's victories over Walcott X2 , Charles X2 , Archie Moore , Joe Louis and others are as credible or even more credible then Tyson's victory over Spinks and near 38 year old fat Larry Holmes ...

Yeah , you could say Marciano's victories over fellow greats happend when they were past prime but look at Tyson's 2 notable victories.
Larry was near 38 and was so out of shape his belly hung over his boxing trunks. Spinks was like 32 and showing age and slipping after moving up to heavyweight from 175lbs. Tyson was his last fight.
Tyson lost to any other elite fighter he faced ...

[CleanYourClock]

So beating an old man with health problems is a great accomplishment? :dunno:

That only proves how much of a bum Marciano was.

So beating an old man so out of shape that his belly hung over past the waste line of his boxing trunks is supposed to be a better accomplishment ??? :dunno:

[Alabama_Man]

So beating an old man so out of shape that his belly hung over past the waste line of his boxing trunks is supposed to be a better accomplishment ??? :dunno:

38 year old Holmes had 10 pounds, 8 inches in reach, and 4-5 inches of height over Tyson. That Holmes would bloody and stop Bum-King Marciano.

[Alabama_Man]

Spinks was like 32 and showing age and slipping after moving up to heavyweight from 175lbs. Tyson was his last fight.
Tyson lost to any other elite fighter he faced ...

That Spinks would destroy Marciano.

[CleanYourClock]

Rocky beat an old hall of famer with health problems. That's like giving credit to Joey Archer for beating Ray Robinson.

Many heavyweights have defended the undisputed title for 6+ times and against younger competition. Walcott and Moore were in their or near their 40s. Being 49-0 doesn't mean much when you're fighting bums and old men.

It's too bad Marciano didn't stick around for another year because Floyd Patterson would've destroyed this bum. Then we wouldn't have shitty threads like this.


I guess you can throw in 38 year old Larry Holmes into that mix as well.
Thats near 40 isn't it ? :lol: You are stupid !

Yeah , Glass jaw Patterson who has been down more times then any heavyweight in history would have beat KO artist Marciano ...
Can we say Zoo/Judah - because thats what this fight would have turned out like ....

[CleanYourClock]

38 year old Holmes had 10 pounds, 8 inches in reach, and 4-5 inches of height over Tyson. That Holmes would bloody and stop Bum-King Marciano.

And Archie Moore has more knock outs then any other fighter from all weight classes that ever lived in the history of boxing ...

Also saying Holmes had 10 pounds and 8 inches of reach over Tyson is stupid ... Almost everyone of Rocky's opponents had the very same advantage over him ...
Also 10 pounds ?? Bro his belly hung over his boxing trunks .....:lol:

[Alabama_Man]

I guess you can throw in 38 year old Larry Holmes into that mix as well.
Thats near 40 isn't it ? :lol: You are stupid !

Yeah , Glass jaw Patterson who has been down more times then any heavyweight in history would have beat KO artist Marciano ...
Can we say Zoo/Judah - because thats what this fight would have turned out like ....

Holmes fought on for 15 more years including bouts where he beat Ray Mercer, and was competitive against Oliver McCall, and Evander Holyfield. Walcott, Louis, Charles, and Moore were done as fighters by the time Marciano got to them. Holmes didn't make his career fighting bums, Marciano was an old man/bum destroyer.

Patterson was too quick, and hit too hard for Marciano. He also beat Moore much more impressively than Marciano who struggled.

[CleanYourClock]

That Spinks would destroy Marciano.

:lol: :lol: Yeah , just like the equally skilled Walcott , Moore , Charles and Louis did ....
Have you seen any of these fights ??? Or are you just talking out of your ass ? Honestly

[Alabama_Man]

:lol: :lol: Yeah , just like the equally skilled Walcott , Moore , Charles and Louis did ....
Have you seen any of these fights ??? Or are you just talking out of your ass ? Honestly

Walcott, Moore, Charles, and Louis were very capable fighters in their prime, just very old and shot by the time they fought Marciano.

[CleanYourClock]

Holmes fought on for 15 more years including bouts where he beat Ray Mercer, and was competitive against Oliver McCall, and Evander Holyfield. Walcott, Louis, Charles, and Moore were done as fighters by the time Marciano got to them. Holmes didn't make his career fighting bums, Marciano was an old man/bum destroyer.

Patterson was too quick, and hit too hard for Marciano. He also beat Moore much more impressively than Marciano who struggled.

And fuckin Moore fought 42 more times losing only 3 fights one of which he avenged to fellow hall of famers ... After Marciano was when he had the now imfamous fights with Durelle ...
Moore was the World Light Heavyweight title holder and defended several times long after he fought Marciano ... Did Holmes ever recapture a title ?

Don't even go there ! Don't even start who did more after the fact Moore/Marciano or Holmes/Tyson because you will be fighting a losing argument ....

[CleanYourClock]

Walcott, Moore, Charles, and Louis were very capable fighters in their prime, just very old and shot by the time they fought Marciano.

Yes , just like Tyson's most notable victory over Larry Holmes ...

However I will say At least Charles , Louis , and Moore all showed up in shape without their guts hanging all over the place like Holmes showed up for Tyson.

[Alabama_Man]

Durelle ... Light Heavyweight

Exactly. :clap:

Moore did shit at Heavyweight after Marciano beat his old ass up.

[CleanYourClock]

Exactly. :clap:

Spinks ? :lol: :lol:

Same difference bro , only Marciano had no real size advantage ...

Exactly :clap: :clap:

[Alabama_Man]

Spinks ? :lol: :lol:

Same difference bro , only Marciano had no real size advantage ...

Exactly :clap: :clap:

Spinks was the linear heavyweight champion. Durelle wasn't even in the division. You're trying to use Moore's accomplishments at Lt. Heavy in a thread about heavweights. That's ridiculous.

[CleanYourClock]

Spinks was the linear heavyweight champion. Durelle wasn't even in the division. You're trying to use Moore's accomplishments at Lt. Heavy in a thread about heavweights. That's ridiculous.

What the fuck are you talking about ???

You crack on Marciano because he beat Moore who then moved back to Lt heavy but refuse to acknowledge that one of Tyson's notable wins was over Lt Heavy Spinks ..:lol:

Then you state "Moore did shit at Heavy after Marciano" - well muther fucker , neither did Spinks after Tyson ... Get what I'm sayin ?

You are not thinking clearly here. You can't build up Tyson with the same exact shit you are breaking Marciano down with ....
Do you not understand this ?

[Alabama_Man]

You crack on Marciano because he beat Moore who then moved back to Lt heavy but refuse to acknowledge that one of Tyson's notable wins was over Lt Heavy Spinks ..:lol:


Spinks was the linear heavyweight champion. How is he not a heavyweight? When was Moore ever the linear heavyweight champion? Moore's career at heavyweight was beatings and losses.

[CleanYourClock]

Spinks was the linear heavyweight champion. How is he not a heavyweight? When was Moore ever the linear heavyweight champion? Moore's career at heavyweight was beatings and losses.

Doesn't matter , Spinks was a Lt heavy fighter ...

Also if this trivial Linear champ thing is your reason to build up Tyson and break down Marciano for the very same circumstances , thats fuckin ridiculous and it makes it look like you are grasping for for anything just to attempt to hold your own in this debate ...

[Alabama_Man]

Doesn't matter , Spinks was a Lt heavy fighter ...

No, Spinks was a heavyweight when Tyson beat him in 1 round. Spinks had beaten Holmes for the championship and destroyed Cooney who has a legit contender at the time. He hadn't fought at light heavyweight for 3 years by the time he fought Tyson.


Also if this trivial Linear champ think is your reason to build up Tyson and break down Marciano for the very same circumstances , thats fuckin ridiculous and it makes it look like you are grasping for for anything just to attempt to hold your own in this debate ...

I have no need to break down Marciano or build up Tyson. I'm just showing the facts that Marciano's entire career is basically defined on beating old men one of which was a spectacular light heavy but a crappy heavyweight. Michael Spinks was at least a legit heavyweight who was actually a legit heavyweight champion. Moore didn't even sniff a heavyweight title belt.

[jaws1216]

Doesn't matter , Spinks was a Lt heavy fighter ...

Also if this trivial Linear champ thing is your reason to build up Tyson and break down Marciano for the very same circumstances , thats fuckin ridiculous and it makes it look like you are grasping for for anything just to attempt to hold your own in this debate ...

this debate can go wherever ud like, but to diminish Tyson for Spinks in the name of marciano is ridiculous. If it wasn't for former lt. heavyweights, Marciano would have how many defenses exactly?

Spinks is the best Lt. Heavy of all time, he "beat" Larry Holmes and his undefeated record, and Tyson destroyed him.

[Rocco]

Moore beat 4 of the top 10 ranked heavyweights including Nino Valdez twice to get a shot at Marciano WHILE still hanging onto his LH title.

[CleanYourClock]

No, Spinks was a heavyweight when Tyson beat him in 1 round. Spinks had beaten Holmes for the championship and destroyed Cooney who has a legit contender at the time. He hadn't fought at light heavyweight for 3 years by the time he fought Tyson.



I have no need to break down Marciano or build up Tyson. I'm just showing the facts that Marciano's entire career is basically defined on beating old men one of which was a spectacular light heavy but a crappy heavyweight. Michael Spinks was at least a legit heavyweight who was actually a legit heavyweight champion. Moore didn't even sniff a heavyweight title belt.

Yeah and ? Moore and Marciano were the same size when Marciano beat him ....

Bottom line , Tysons 2 biggest victories were over and OLD FAT BELLIED out of shape , near 40 year old man and the other was over a former Lt Heavyweight that was showing signs of slipping ...

Whatever , that is fine with me but , you can't discredit Marciano's victories and call his opponents old or Lt heavyweights and then try to justify Tysons two notable wins I mention above ...
It makes you look like an ass ....

[Alabama_Man]

Yeah and ? Moore and Marciano were the same size when Marciano beat him ....

Bottom line , Tysons 2 biggest victories were over and OLD FAT BELLIED out of shape , near 40 year old man and the other was over a former Lt Heavyweight that was showing signs of slipping ...

Whatever , that is fine with me but , you can't discredit Marciano's victories and call his opponents old or Lt heavyweights and then try to justify Tysons two notable wins I mention above ...
It makes you look like an ass ....

Spinks was only 31 and Tyson outweighed him by only 6 pounds. Spinks also had 3 inches in height and reach. He was THE heavyweight champion when he won the title and the linear heavyweight champ when he and Tyson tangled. Holmes went on to beat Mercer, and fight twice in competitive bouts for the championship against Holyfield and Mccall.

When was Moore ever even close to being a legit champ at Heavyweight? Like I said, his heavyweight career was beatings and losses.

Marciano's career was built on Moore, Charles, Walcott, and Louis. Those guys were all shot and done as heavyweights by the time Marciano got to them. The same can't be said about Spinks or Holmes. Marciano doesn't have even one name on his resume that compares to Spinks or Holmes.

[Rocco]

Marciano's career was built on Moore, Charles, Walcott, and Louis.


Marciano doesn't have even one name on his resume that compares to Spinks or Holmes.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Alabama_Man]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

I noticed you left out the rest of my quote. That shows how badly you need to grasp for straws, misquoting me and such.

What I said was:


Marciano's career was built on Moore, Charles, Walcott, and Louis. Those guys were all shot and done as heavyweights by the time Marciano got to them.

Surely you don't think beating up on near 40 year old Louis, and Moore means more than beating 31 year old linear heavyweight champion Michael Spinks?

[CleanYourClock]

Spinks was only 31 and Tyson outweighed him by only 6 pounds. Spinks also had 3 inches in height and reach. He was THE heavyweight champion when he won the title and the linear heavyweight champ when he and Tyson tangled. Holmes went on to beat Mercer, and fight twice in competitive bouts for the championship against Holyfield and Mccall.

When was Moore ever even close to being a legit champ at Heavyweight? Like I said, his heavyweight career was beatings and losses.

Marciano's career was built on Moore, Charles, Walcott, and Louis. Those guys were all shot and done as heavyweights by the time Marciano got to them. The same can't be said about Spinks or Holmes. Marciano doesn't have even one name on his resume that compares to Spinks or Holmes.

You are grasping again ... Who cares if Tyson only outweighed him by 6 pounds ??? Do you think Rocky had a size advantage over Moore or Ezzaed Charles ?? Again , you are shot down ..
Spinks beat an aged , fat , not in good shape Larry Holmes and some will dispute the SPLIT DECISION because some people think he lost that fight.
Jerry Cooney ??? He fought Spinks 5 years after the Holmes fight and it was a well know fact HE WAS SHOT after he fought Holmes ...
After Tyson , Spinks retired and never did anything at Heavyweight ...

Ezzard Charles is just a credible win as Spinks who came into the ring ALREADY defeated and intimidated ....
Charles came to fight , not lay down like Spinks did ..
Fuckin Joe Louis and Joe Walcott were the same age when they fought Marciano as the fat slob Larry Holmes was when he fought Tyson ... Not to mention Walcott & Louis were in decent shape and didn't have their guts hanging over the sides of their boxing trunks ...

If you discredit Louis & Walcott ( 2 fighters between 210 and 220 lbs "skinny" ) , you must discredit fat Holmes !
If you discredit Ezzard Charles & Archie Moore neither of whom Marciano had any size or reach advantage over, you must discredit Spinks as well !

[Alabama_Man]

If you discredit Louis & Walcott ( 2 fighters between 210 and 220 lbs "skinny" ) , you must discredit fat Holmes !

Louis and Walcott were done as fighters when Marciano got to them. They did shit after Marciano beat their old asses up.

Holmes went on to beat Ray Mercer, and be competitive with Evander Holyfield and Oliver McCall.



If you discredit Ezzard Charles & Archie Moore neither of whom Marciano had any size or reach advantage over, you must discredit Spinks as well !

Charles hadn't touched the heavyweight title in years, Moore was never the World Heavyweight champion. Spinks WAS the linear heavyweight champ when Tyson fought him. Big difference.

[Rocco]

What did Spinks go on to do?

[Rocco]

Holmes went on to beat Ray Mercer, and LOSE to Evander Holyfield and Oliver McCall.

There, fixed it for you!

P.S.

Dont forget about Holmes' victory over Erik Esch...

Holmes preparation for Tyson? 0-2
Louis prep for Marciano? 8 fight win streak

[CleanYourClock]

Louis and Walcott were done as fighters when Marciano got to them. They did shit after Marciano beat their old asses up.

Holmes went on to beat Ray Mercer, and be competitive with Evander Holyfield and Oliver McCall.



Charles hadn't touched the heavyweight title in years, Moore was never the World Heavyweight champion. Spinks WAS the linear heavyweight champ when Tyson fought him. Big difference.

Give me a fuckin break .... Holmes beat Mercer .... So , he had 1 decent fight left .... He CLEARLY lost to McCall and Holyfield ...
He did NOTHING ...
He showed up fat & old Vs Tyson , fat as hell with his gut hanging all over the place .....
I'm not saying that Louis or Walcott did anything after , they opted to retire ... However at least when they fought Marciano , they showed up in shape and ready to fight ...
Holmes showed up like he just came from an all night buffet ...
They fuckin guy couldn't even breath for god sake ...

As far as Spinks having a title , like I said , he fought an aged out of shape Holmes and had an SD and many people thought he lost that fight.
As far as Cooney , C'mon man ... The fuckin guy was completely shot.
Why even mention his name at that point in time ?

Whatever , I just find it hilarious that you can Justify one guys record and break down anothers for the very same exact reasons ...
It doesn't make sense - well unless you just hate on one fighter.
In this case it just happens to be Marciano ...

Like I said , Tysons notable wins - Scared stiff Spinks & Fat old slob Larry Holmes with rolls of fat hanging all over the place is NOT better then Marciano's notable wins in Walcott X2 , Charles X2 , Moore , Louis regardless of their age or weight because Spinks & Holmes were in the same situation Vs Tyson as those guys were Vs Marciano ...

[Alabama_Man]

Like I said , Tysons notable wins - Scared stiff Spinks & Fat old slob Larry Holmes with rolls of fat hanging all over the place is NOT better then Marciano's notable wins in Walcott X2 , Charles X2 , Moore , Louis regardless of their age or weight because Spinks & Holmes were in the same situation Vs Tyson as those guys were Vs Marciano ...

Even if I do concede that the competition is even, Tyson destroyed his competition and Marciano managed to get dumped and put on queer street by Walcott. He also got dumped by old ass Moore.

I'm have no personal stake in this battle like Rocco. I'm just looking at this objectively and Marciano made his career beating up old men. If Rocky had sacked up and fought Patterson instead of retiring, maybe we wouldn't even be having this discussion. Cus D'Amato and Marciano's management were discussing a potential fight between the two in 1956. Marciano bitched out and called it a day ala Lennox Lewis.

[CleanYourClock]

Even if I do concede that the competition is even, Tyson destroyed his competition and Marciano managed to get dumped and put on queer street by Walcott. He also got dumped by old ass Moore.

I'm have no personal stake in this battle like Rocco. I'm just looking at this objectively and Marciano made his career beating up old men. If Rocky had sacked up and fought Patterson instead of retiring, maybe we wouldn't even be having this discussion. Cus D'Amato and Marciano's management were discussing a potential fight between the two in 1956. Marciano bitched out and called it a day ala Lennox Lewis.

Yeah , lets drop this ... It's getting a bit old ...

I bet though if Rocky could only have seen the future and new what Pattersons chin was going to be like at Heavyweight , he probably would have came out of retirement for 1 last fight ... :lol:

[Rubio MHS]

That Spinks would destroy Marciano.How could he beat Marciano when he was scared out of his wits and wearing braces on both legs?

[Alabama_Man]

How could he beat Marciano when he was scared out of his wits and wearing braces on both legs?

I already have a girlfriend, and I'm not gay. Stop flirting.

[Rubio MHS]

That's just a boxing question, and a serious one. Spinks was SHOT when he fought Tyson. How could he beat Rocky Marciano, when Archie Moore, who was better than Spinks, couldn't?

[Alabama_Man]

That's just a boxing question, and a serious one. Spinks was SHOT when he fought Tyson. How could he beat Rocky Marciano, when Archie Moore, who was better than Spinks, couldn't?

I don't agree that the Moore that fought Marciano was better than the Spinks that fought Tyson. Moore was only an above average heavyweight at best when he was younger, near his 40s he was far gone (he still dropped Marciano).

Spinks was only 31 and had fought Holmes (top 5 heavyweight all-time) and beat him only 2 years before.

I think the Spinks that fought Tyson would give Marciano fits and stop him on cuts or eventually just TKO him.

[Rubio MHS]

I don't agree that the Moore that fought Marciano was better than the Spinks that fought Tyson. Moore was only an above average heavyweight at best when he was younger, near his 40s he was far gone (he still dropped Marciano).

Spinks was only 31 and had fought Holmes (top 5 heavyweight all-time) and beat him only 2 years before.

I think the Spinks that fought Tyson would give Marciano fits and stop him on cuts or eventually just TKO him.Dumbass. Archie Moore was the #1 heavyweight for years and years. He's usually ranked as one of the 50, if not 40 or 30 greatest heavyweights of all time.

Michael Spinks was lucky in both fights, against a Holmes who was as old as Ali was when Leon Spinks beat him. Two years later, he was nagged by injuries and inaction. He hadn't faced a top-10 heavyweight since "beating" Holmes. He had no legs, and no gameplan to face Tyson. He simply slapped his gloves together and walked forward the way he did in every other fight. Archie Moore was one of the smartest fighters who ever lived, and the whole Spinks family ranks among the dumbest.

[Alabama_Man]

Dumbass.

See I knew you were going to try and flirt with me. I don't date queers. :nono:

[winner by choke]

tony tucker would have pummeled a 40+ yr old archie moore.

[Alabama_Man]

tony tucker would have pummeled a 40+ yr old archie moore.

Probably by KO 1. To suggest that Moore was ever in the top "30" all-time of heavyweights is telling about the author.

[Rubio MHS]

tony tucker would have pummeled a 40+ yr old archie moore.Archie Moore wasn't over 40 when he fought Marciano, dumbass.

[Rocco]

I'm have no personal stake in this battle like Rocco.

:lol: :lol:


I have personal stake in this? :lol: What the hell might that be? :crafty:


I've dealt with this issue before and some have even made me think Tyson could beat Rocky easily, but guess what? You aren't one of them. They had some pretty darn good reasoning and broke it down for me of how they thought that, all you have is hatred for one, love for another and a knack for distorting history and facts.

[jaws1216]

:lol: :lol:


I have personal stake in this? :lol: What the hell might that be? :crafty:


I've dealt with this issue before and some have even made me think Tyson could beat Rocky easily, but guess what? You aren't one of them. They had some pretty darn good reasoning and broke it down for me of how they thought that, all you have is hatred for one, love for another and a knack for distorting history and facts.

you've ignored me for 2 pages:nono:

lol, ok back to the topic

[Alabama_Man]

:lol: :lol:


I have personal stake in this? :lol: What the hell might that be? :crafty:



Yeah, because having the name "Rocco", and having him in your avatar blowing away an old guy means you have nothing vested in this debate. :rolleyes:

Who cares what you and your little boyfriends talk about on "some other" messageboard. Doesn't change the fact that Marciano is a bum who built his career on 40 year old, past their prime, greats.

[Rocco]

you've ignored me for 2 pages:nono:

lol, ok back to the topic

Wasn't aware I missed anything? :dunno:

[Rubio MHS]

you've ignored me for 2 pages:nono:

lol, ok back to the topicIf it weren't for that stupid rule saying that you can't put a mod on your "ignore" list, I'd be ignoring you for 20,000 pages by now.

[CleanYourClock]

I don't agree that the Moore that fought Marciano was better than the Spinks that fought Tyson. Moore was only an above average heavyweight at best when he was younger, near his 40s he was far gone (he still dropped Marciano).

Spinks was only 31 and had fought Holmes (top 5 heavyweight all-time) and beat him only 2 years before.

I think the Spinks that fought Tyson would give Marciano fits and stop him on cuts or eventually just TKO him.

Bro , Spinks WAS SHOT .... He had NO movement left in his legs and even had on two knee braces ....
Walcott , Charles & Moore were all better opponents then the Spinks that fought Tyson ...
Here is the clip ... Spinks was no better then a bum at this point ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5tBbwdut74

[steve_dave]

Bro , Spinks WAS SHOT .... He had NO movement left in his legs and even had on two knee braces ....
Walcott , Charles & Moore were all better opponents then the Spinks that fought Tyson ...
Here is the clip ... Spinks was no better then a bum at this point ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5tBbwdut74

:lol: Spinks was shot.

[Rocco]

I'm not going to degrade Tyson's win over Spinks as I thought it was a great win for Mike. It's obvious that Alabama just hates Marciano so that pretty much ends the debate as there is nothing you can do to overcome that, it only short sights him in the long run and bothers me none as there are millions of fans with the same issues.

[Alabama_Man]

I'm not going to degrade Tyson's win over Spinks as I thought it was a great win for Mike. It's obvious that Alabama just hates Marciano

Says the guy whose profile and name is plastered with Marciano's nutsack.

[Alabama_Man]

:lol: Spinks looked like he was shot.

:clap:

[Rocco]

Says the guy whose profile and name is plastered with Marciano's nutsack.
Ah, so the name throws you does it? Is your name really Alabama_Man? So I'm guessing your only impartial to Alabama men? :lol:

It's a username, get over it, it's the one that worked after trying 400 others. As for the pic, it's the greatest punch ever landed in boxing, again, get over it. Rocky's not my favorite fighter, I think I probably use it however to display ignorance of others, it seems to be working better than I imagined.

[Alabama_Man]

Ah, so the name throws you does it? Is your name really Alabama_Man? So I'm guessing your only impartial to Alabama men? :lol:

It's a username, get over it, it's the one that worked after trying 400 others. As for the pic, it's the greatest punch ever landed in boxing, again, get over it. Rocky's not my favorite fighter, I think I probably use it however to display ignorance of others, it seems to be working better than I imagined.

So the name and avatar are just merely coincidences? :rolleyes:

Who is ignorant now? :lol:

[Rocco]

If my username was Marvelous and I had a picture of Hagler vs Hearns, we wouldn't be having this conversation, wonder why.........

[Alabama_Man]

If my username was Marvelous and I had a picture of Hagler vs Hearns, we wouldn't be having this conversation, wonder why.........

No, we'd be having another conversation about "Marvin Hagler vs. Sugar Ray Robinson" and how Hagler got "robbed" against Ray Leonard. Granted you'd be playing the same kind of semantics.

[CleanYourClock]

Look at Spinks when they meet in the middle of the ring before the fight .
He was already a beaten man ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3Ypfh5xggk

I also watched Cooney Spinks ... Spinks was already in bad shape in that fight 2 years earlier... Just that Cooney was completely fucked at that point ..

[slystaff]

Look at Spinks when they meet in the middle of the ring before the fight .
He was already a beaten man ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3Ypfh5xggk

I also watched Cooney Spinks ... Spinks was already in bad shape in that fight 2 years earlier... Just that Cooney was completely fucked at that point ..

ah....

I really miss Iron Mike!! :clap:

[Erratic]

That's a great post erratic!

I agree with all of it but do have one question concerning Grant, you claim "He had a weak chin and psyche, crap defense, and his skills were only decent" I understand the chin, psyche (heart?), crap defense, but skills is what we are talking about here and you said his were only decent, so I ask, did you claim or know this pre Lewis fight? I remember most thinking Grant was "IT".

Grant seemed decent but I was never that impressed with him. He sure as hell did not look good against Golota until the very end.

As far as huge heavyweights go and skills, I was always more impressed with the Klitschkos (and I detest Vitali) than Grant.