Pacquiao running scared from Marquez!

[Rubio MHS]

Yesterday, the Philippine Star is reported that Pacquiao won't take the fight with Marquez, sealing his mediocre career as a one-hit-wonder. He is also refusing a rematch with Barrera.

[Tam Tam]

Yesterday, the Philippine Star is reported that Pacquiao won't take the fight with Marquez, sealing his mediocre career as a one-hit-wonder. He is also refusing a rematch with Barrera.
Just fuck off. Please.

[mexican wedding shirt]

Tam what are you playing at? you recommended Rubio to me, you said he was your favourite troll. Have you changed your mind?

[Rubio MHS]

Unless a miracle happens, the awaited rematch between Manny Pacquiao and Juan Manuel Marquez will not take place this September as the WBC had planned. The camp of the Filipino superstar has formally notified the World Boxing Council that it is declining the position of mandatory challenger to reigning super-featherweight champion from Mexico. Mike Koncz, the Canadian ring adviser of Pacquiao, said through e-mail that they informed WBC president Jose Sulaiman of their position last Wednesdday

http://www.mannypacquiao.ph/news/index.php?show=3

[REEDsART]

WHY would Pac Do this???


REED:dunno:

[dsimon3387]

http://www.mannypacquiao.ph/news/index.php?show=3

dsimon writes:

I bet alabama man has something to say about this travesty. :slap:

[Alabama_Man]

dsimon writes:

I bet alabama man has something to say about this travesty. :slap:

Not really. It's pretty obvious why this fight wasn't going to happen, and fear has nothing to do with it. :popcorn:

[Rubio MHS]

WHY would Pac Do this???


REED:dunno:Because he's a scared little bitch. He won't fight Marquez. He won't fight Barrera. He won't fight Valero. That makes him a little bitch.

[valdosta]

WHY would Pac Do this???


REED:dunno:

It would be stupid to fight JMM under those rules. Considering that Pacquiao is the $$$ guy out of the 2, you think he is fighting JMM for less than 50%? :dunno: Saw this coming from a mile away. The 2 promoters won't do bussiness and Pacquiao would have to be a fucking fool to fight JMM off a purse bid.

[Alabama_Man]

It would be stupid to fight JMM under those rules. Considering that Pacquiao is the $$$ guy out of the 2, you think he is fighting JMM for less than 50%? :dunno: Saw this coming from a mile away. The 2 promoters won't do bussiness and Pacquiao would have to be a fucking fool to fight JMM off a purse bid.

I was hoping you wouldn't post.

I wanted to see more idiots stumble around. I mean LATIN QUEER hasn't even entered this thread yet. Couldn't you have been more patient? :dunno:

[Rubio MHS]

It would be stupid to fight JMM under those rules. Considering that Pacquiao is the $$$ guy out of the 2, you think he is fighting JMM for less than 50%? :dunno: Saw this coming from a mile away. The 2 promoters won't do bussiness and Pacquiao would have to be a fucking fool to fight JMM off a purse bid.Dumbass, a purse bid occurs when the two fighters can't reach an agreement on who gets paid how much. Pacquiao could have negotiated any deal he wanted to with Marquez, and if Marquez had agreed, it would've been fine. Do you really think Floyd Mayweather got less than 50% against Jose Luis Castillo?

You simply don't understand boxing, and you're just making excuses for Pacquiao, who's a bitch.

[Tam Tam]

Yeah, because negotiations with Marquez went so well last time. And that was when he had nothing to offer. He has such a stellar history of play at the negotiating table, right?

Die.

[valdosta]

Dumbass, a purse bid occurs when the two fighters can't reach an agreement on who gets paid how much. Pacquiao could have negotiated any deal he wanted to with Marquez, and if Marquez had agreed, it would've been fine. Do you really think Floyd Mayweather got less than 50% against Jose Luis Castillo?

You simply don't understand boxing, and you're just making excuses for Pacquiao, who's a bitch.

Ahhh you have to resort to calling names? Fact is ODLH and Arum aren't going to deal with each other at all. Is that not somehow clear? OK, so they aren't going to deal with each other. What happens then? Oh yeah, a purse bid. I understand boxing just fine. If someone don't understand boxing it's you. "jose Luis Castillo is HUGELY popular" :notallthere: :lol: :laughing:

[Tam Tam]

Do you really think Floyd Mayweather got less than 50% against Jose Luis Castillo?

Do you really think Floyd Mayweather was the mandatory for Jose Luis Castillo? :rolleyes:

[ElTerriblee]

I´ll attempt to watch a FULL NBA conference finals game soon. :popcorn: :popcorn:

[Rubio MHS]

Ahhh you have to resort to calling names? Fact is ODLH and Arum aren't going to deal with each other at all. Is that not somehow clear? OK, so they aren't going to deal with each other. What happens then? Oh yeah, a purse bid. I understand boxing just fine. If someone don't understand boxing it's you. "jose Luis Castillo is HUGELY popular" :notallthere: :lol: :laughing:He knew that when he signed with Arum, and I recognized him for the bitch as he is back then. This recent business only confirms it. Pacquiao is afraid of Marquez.

[Rubio MHS]

Do you really think Floyd Mayweather was the mandatory for Jose Luis Castillo? :rolleyes:Didn't say he was. But you know that the only time a challenger is required to get less than 50% is when the fight goes to a purse bid. It hadn't.

[Alabama_Man]

I´ll attempt to watch a FULL NBA conference finals game soon.Who is playing?

I stopped watching after Golden State was eliminated. I did see Horry fling elbows at Nash. He's the Elbower MVP of these playoffs.

[valdosta]

He knew that when he signed with Arum, and I recognized him for the bitch as he is back then. This recent business only confirms it. Pacquiao is afraid of Marquez.

You are terrified of common sense. Pacquiao signed with Arum because Arum obviously gave him the best deal. Yeah fighters should be criticized for signing with the promoter that will pay the most. :notallthere:

[Rubio MHS]

You are terrified of common sense. Pacquiao signed with Arum because Arum obviously gave him the best deal. Yeah fighters should be criticized for signing with the promoter that will pay the most. :notallthere:I'm sick of that bullshit excuse. You don't think fighting Barrera, Marquez and the top fighters of the division would make money?

[ElTerriblee]

Who is playing?


Pistons in the second half and Cavs for the whole game. Both games Cavs were up by 12 at the half I believe. Let´s see when the Pistons show up tonight. :lol:

[mexican wedding shirt]

I hate to say it because pacman is one of the only remaining exciting wardog fighters in boxing, but I think he is soon done as an elite fighter.

He seems to be losing interest. Pursuing a career in politics, and now planning to go to law school :dunno:

[valdosta]

I'm sick of that bullshit excuse. You don't think fighting Barrera, Marquez and the top fighters of the division would make money?

What I know is that you don't know what contracts were offered so you really aren't in a position to judge are you? It's very obvious that Arum offered the better contract considering what Pacquiao made against Solis.

[Rubio MHS]

I hate to say it because pacman is one of the only remaining exciting wardog fighters in boxing, but I think he is soon done as an elite fighter.

He seems to be losing interest. Pursuing a career in politics, and now planning to go to law school :dunno:Exactly. As soon as he signed with Arum, I knew right away that he didn't want any big fights.

[Rubio MHS]

What I know is that you don't know what contracts were offered so you really aren't in a position to judge are you? It's very obvious that Arum offered the better contract considering what Pacquiao made against Solis.Hmm? You're the one who said that he picked the one that would make him more money, and now you're saying that you don't know what contracts were offered? If so, then how do you know that Arum offered him more money?

[valdosta]

Hmm? You're the one who said that he picked the one that would make him more money, and now you're saying that you don't know what contracts were offered? If so, then how do you know that Arum offered him more money?

Who's he fighting for? What did he make to fight Solis? The answers to both of those questions are known. You don't know the exact contracts he was offered by ODLH or Arum, however considering he left ODLH very quickly it's not to hard to figure out. Even for a guy like you who don't know shit about boxing and thinks Jose Luis Castillo is "hugely popular".

[Alabama_Man]

Pistons in the second half and Cavs for the whole game. Both games Cavs were up by 12 at the half I believe. Let´s see when the Pistons show up tonight. :lol:

I hate Lebron James. I'm hoping the Pistons can pull it off so James can tell his fans, "It's just basketball." :rolleyes:

[Rubio MHS]

Who's he fighting for? What did he make to fight Solis? The answers to both of those questions are known. You don't know the exact contracts he was offered by ODLH or Arum, however considering he left ODLH very quickly it's not to hard to figure out. Even for a guy like you who don't know shit about boxing and thinks Jose Luis Castillo is "hugely popular".Yeah. The reason is that he's a pussy. For all you know, Golden Boy offered him more money, while Arum said, "I'll pay you pretty well to fight a bunch of bums."

[Double L]

sad part is, half a game is all the pistons need to beat Cleveland. so far anyways.

whatever the case with pacquiao and JMM, it's a damn crime that the two don't fight. and both must be held responsible for further disrespecting the sport that has given them both so much.

[StingerKarl]

I asked Bob Arum after Manny's last win in San Antonio if he would like to fight Juan Diaz next, and Bob replied very enthusiastically that yes he would love to make that fight.
Manny will probably move up.

[Alabama_Man]

http://michaellenington.typepad.com/imho___resox_politics_obs/images/lebron_1_2.jpg

http://www.oddjack.com/gambling/images/toon_lebron.jpg

http://www.oddjack.com/gambling/images/boo_lebron.jpg

[valdosta]

Yeah. The reason is that he's a pussy. For all you know, Golden Boy offered him more money, while Arum said, "I'll pay you pretty well to fight a bunch of bums."

Yaeh looking over Pacquiao's resume the past few years I am sure that was it :rolleyes:

[Rubio MHS]

Yaeh looking over Pacquiao's resume the past few years I am sure that was it :rolleyes:Aside from struggling with old man Morales - who even Zahir Raheem didn't lose to - what has he done in the past three years?

[Alabama_Man]

Damn this game is close. Do you guys think Lebron will score more than 10 ponts?

[valdosta]

Knocked out Morales twice, beat Larios and has a draw with JMM that should have been a win. Go back another 6 months and you can add his win over MAB. So, what is wrong with fighting Morales 3 times,MAB,JMM,Larios,Velasquez and Solis in a 3 1/2 year period?

[ElTerriblee]

Damn this game is close. Do you guys think Lebron will score more than 10 ponts?

If Billups continues to play like he does in this series, he´ll get less than Jerome James next year

[Rubio MHS]

Knocked out Morales twice, beat Larios and has a draw with JMM that should have been a win. Go back another 6 months and you can add his win over MAB. So, what is wrong with fighting Morales 3 times,MAB,JMM,Larios,Velasquez and Solis in a 3 1/2 year period?The fight with Marquez was over three years ago. All he's fought since then are Larios (coming off a KO loss and coming up two divisions), Morales (old and shot, having recently been handled by Zahir Raheem and a 10-pounds-lighter Marco Antonio Barrera), Velasquez (um, this is supposed to be impressive why?) and well... no one else. All of Pacquiao's impressive performances took place more than three years ago. He's obviously riding on that glory by moving into politics and taking an "I don't have to fight anyone in the top 10 if I don't want to" deal with Arum.

[valdosta]

You can talk shit about anyone's resume if you want to nitpick. The JMM fight was longer than 3 years ago by 1 whopping month. Big deal. In the past 3.5 years manny has fought everyone I mentioned. Excuses or no excuses he beat them all (except JMM who got a lucky draw).

[valdosta]

Oh and as for the Morales fights. He fought Morales the first time and lost (in Pac's first fight at 130). Pacquiao obviously wanted to avenge his loss and he did so. He did sign a rematch clause though so he really didn't have a choice but to fight Morales the 3rd time.

[Alabama_Man]

If Billups continues to play like he does in this series, he´ll get less than Jerome James next year

Billups can't score from 3.

Lebron is stepping it up. I'll give him that, but a 3 point lead into the half won't be enough. I see this going down 3-0 tonight, Pistons. :crafty:

[Rubio MHS]

Oh and as for the Morales fights. He fought Morales the first time and lost (in Pac's first fight at 130). Pacquiao obviously wanted to avenge his loss and he did so. He did sign a rematch clause though so he really didn't have a choice but to fight Morales the 3rd time.Pacquiao lost the first Morales fight because he sucks. The Morales that lost to a 10-pounds-lighter Barrera (in his first fight at 130) and Zahir Raheem was no good. The only reason he beat Pacquiao is that Pacquiao is one-dimensional.

In the end, Pacquiao's best win(s) were more than three years ago. He hasn't done anything to merit a top-10 pound-for-pound ranking since then. Basically, he's at the same place Floyd Mayweather was in early 2006, only Mayweather went on to beat Baldomir, Judah and De la Hoya. Pacquiao has no chance of fighting any of the big names at 130 because he took the chicken route and signed with Arum, and he'll get killed by Diaz at 135. His career as a top fighter is over.

[dsimon3387]

Not really. It's pretty obvious why this fight wasn't going to happen, and fear has nothing to do with it. :popcorn:

dsimon writes:

I just figured we would get the other side of the story:popcorn: So those of us attempting to judiciously weigh the evidence like Osiris' feather versus a soul, could weigh in :lol:

[valdosta]

Pacquiao lost the first Morales fight because he sucks. .

End of the discussion for me. That means there's about 2 fighters in the whole sport who are good. Let me guess, a MMA nuthugger? :shit:

[Rubio MHS]

Oh, Pacquiao is fairly good. He should be top-3 or -4 at 130, and top-20 or -25, pound-for-pound. It's laughable that people rank him in the top 10.

[valdosta]

So is he fairly good or does he suck? There is quite a difference. Not top 10? Really? Who are these other 20 or so guys who are in front of him?

[Alabama_Man]

dsimon writes:

I just figured we would get the other side of the story:popcorn: So those of us attempting to judiciously weigh the evidence like Osiris' feather versus a soul, could weigh in :lol:

You give this place too much credit. This thread is shitty even for shit standards.

[Rubio MHS]

So is he fairly good or does he suck? There is quite a difference. Not top 10? Really? Who are these other 20 or so guys who are in front of him?For someone claiming to be the best in the sport, he sucks. I mean, if his Filipina fans (like you) would be a bit more realistic, you'd see that he simply doesn't belong in the top 10. Here's my current ranking:


Floyd Mayweather
Bernard Hopkins
Winky Wright
Jermaine Taylor
Shane Mosley
Ricky Hatton
Hozumi Hasegawa
Mikkel Kessler
Joe Calzaghe
Raphael Marquez
Christian Mijares
Eagle Kwoya
Cellestino Caballero
Vic Darchinyan
Joel Cassamayor
Juan Diaz
Miguel Cotto
Juan Manuel Marquez
Marco Antonio Barrrera
O'Neil Bell
Jose Luis Castillo
Wladimir Klitschko
Manny Pacquiao
Kelly Pavlik
Cory SpinksHe's on the same level, pound-for-pound, as Wladimir Klitschko and Cory Spinks, but not quite as good as the O'Neil Bells of the world.

[Rubio MHS]

You give this place too much credit. This thread is shitty even for shit standards.I see you've taken to copying my posts word-for-word now. Does your hero worship know no bounds?

[Tam Tam]

For someone claiming to be the best in the sport, he sucks. I mean, if his Filipina fans (like you) would be a bit more realistic, you'd see that he simply doesn't belong in the top 10. Here's my current ranking:


Floyd Mayweather
Bernard Hopkins
Winky Wright
Jermaine Taylor
Shane Mosley
Ricky Hatton
Hozumi Hasegawa
Mikkel Kessler
Joe Calzaghe
Raphael Marquez
Christian Mijares
Eagle Kwoya
Cellestino Caballero
Vic Darchinyan
Joel Cassamayor
Juan Diaz
Miguel Cotto
Juan Manuel Marquez
Marco Antonio Barrrera
O'Neil Bell
Jose Luis Castillo
Wladimir Klitschko
Manny Pacquiao
Kelly Pavlik
Cory SpinksHe's on the same level, pound-for-pound, as Wladimir Klitschko and Cory Spinks, but not quite as good as the O'Neil Bells of the world.
You're quite lucky Fightbeat doesn't have a "no trolls" policy in place. If Pandy was serious about managing fightbeat, you'd have been gone long ago.

[Alabama_Man]

I see you've taken to copying my posts word-for-word now. Does your hero worship know no bounds?

Where did you post that exact thing anywhere?

Post the thread or stop trying to flirt with me.

p.s - This thread is shittier than wet dog shit. It should be deleted or locked.

[Double L]

For someone claiming to be the best in the sport, he sucks. I mean, if his Filipina fans (like you) would be a bit more realistic, you'd see that he simply doesn't belong in the top 10. Here's my current ranking:

Floyd Mayweather
Bernard Hopkins
Winky Wright
Jermaine Taylor
Shane Mosley
Ricky Hatton
Hozumi Hasegawa
Mikkel Kessler
Joe Calzaghe
Raphael Marquez
Christian Mijares
Eagle Kwoya
Cellestino Caballero
Vic Darchinyan
Joel Cassamayor
Juan Diaz
Miguel Cotto
Juan Manuel Marquez
Marco Antonio Barrrera
O'Neil Bell
Jose Luis Castillo
Wladimir Klitschko
Manny Pacquiao
Kelly Pavlik
Cory SpinksHe's on the same level, pound-for-pound, as Wladimir Klitschko and Cory Spinks, but not quite as good as the O'Neil Bells of the world.

this list is pathetic. you have Barrera on top of Pacquiao? How in God's name is this?

And Darchinyan ahead of ODH?

You're just fucking out of your mind. Apparently, you'll say anything to win an argument.

[Tam Tam]

this list is pathetic. you have Barrera on top of Pacquiao? How in God's name is this?

And Darchinyan ahead of ODH?

You're just fucking out of your mind. Apparently, you'll say anything to win an argument.
He's obviously trolling, however Darchinyan COULD be placed above De La Hoya. I think a lot of people would think the same way too.

[dsimon3387]

You give this place too much credit. This thread is shitty even for shit standards.

dsimon writes:

:lol: I was being tongue in cheek.

[Double L]

He's obviously trolling, however Darchinyan COULD be placed above De La Hoya. I think a lot of people would think the same way too.

ahead of JMM, Barrera and Pacquiao too?

[Tam Tam]

ahead of JMM, Barrera and Pacquiao too?
Barrera? Maybe. Again, thats personal, especially considering he's coming off a loss and basically no quality wins in some time now. I don't, but its actually close.

Not ahead of the other two.

[Double L]

Barrera? Maybe. Again, thats personal, especially considering he's coming off a loss and basically no quality wins in some time now. I don't, but its actually close.

Not ahead of the other two.

i hope i'm proven wrong, but my gut feeling is that Vic is all hype. basically, he's beaten up on a bunch of guys he's stronger than. but i've neve seen him beat anyone with skill, strategy or smarts. for him it's been brute force all the way. that will catch up to him the same way it did Arce.

[Tam Tam]

i hope i'm proven wrong, but my gut feeling is that Vic is all hype. basically, he's beaten up on a bunch of guys he's stronger than. but i've neve seen him beat anyone with skill, strategy or smarts. for him it's been brute force all the way. that will catch up to him the same way it did Arce.
Regardless if Vic loses 50 fights in a row, he's quite obviously "not all hype". Thats typical fickleboxingfanits.

If you don't think Vic's beaten anybody, thats alright. You must not think a great deal of anyone below 126 then, because Vic's beaten a number of top 10 fighters already and none have lasted the distance with him.

[dsimon3387]

For someone claiming to be the best in the sport, he sucks. I mean, if his Filipina fans (like you) would be a bit more realistic, you'd see that he simply doesn't belong in the top 10. Here's my current ranking:


Floyd Mayweather
Bernard Hopkins
Winky Wright
Jermaine Taylor
Shane Mosley
Ricky Hatton
Hozumi Hasegawa
Mikkel Kessler
Joe Calzaghe
Raphael Marquez
Christian Mijares
Eagle Kwoya
Cellestino Caballero
Vic Darchinyan
Joel Cassamayor
Juan Diaz
Miguel Cotto
Juan Manuel Marquez
Marco Antonio Barrrera
O'Neil Bell
Jose Luis Castillo
Wladimir Klitschko
Manny Pacquiao
Kelly Pavlik
Cory SpinksHe's on the same level, pound-for-pound, as Wladimir Klitschko and Cory Spinks, but not quite as good as the O'Neil Bells of the world.

dsimon writes:

Interesting list Rubio. I make it a policy never to take issue with a list I would/could not construct. You usually have rational reasons for your lists as well. My biggest question would be why is Marquez not higher?

I would get a lot of shit for it but Marquez would be up pretty high on my list... above Cotto and Diaz for sure.

One more issue: If you are giving Taylor credit for his victories then I would assume you would have to do the same for Calzighe's hollow victories which at the very least would make Calzighe and Taylor switch spots? In the name of consistency of course. Hatton would be placed appropriately according to this logic.

[Double L]

Regardless if Vic loses 50 fights in a row, he's quite obviously "not all hype". Thats typical fickleboxingfanits.

If you don't think Vic's beaten anybody, thats alright. You must not think a great deal of anyone below 126 then, because Vic's beaten a number of top 10 fighters already and none have lasted the distance with him.

i didn't say he hasn't beaten anybody. what i'm saying is everybody he has beaten he's done so through the use of brute force and strength. he's pretty much walked through guys. what i wanna know is what he's gonna do when that's not possible.

[Double L]

sweet ! Cavs up by 8 - 2:00 to go.

[Rubio MHS]

this list is pathetic. you have Barrera on top of Pacquiao? How in God's name is this?Pacquiao hasn't had a major win in three years. The Morales he beat had already been exposed by a 10-pounds-lighter Barrera and a shit-boring Zahir Raheem. Since Pacquiao is refusing rematches with Marquez and Barrera, he probably shouldn't be in my top 25. And Darchinyan ahead of ODH?I never rank fighters based on a loss, unless it was an iffy one. Mayweather-De la Hoya wasn't iffy. Also, De la Hoya hasn't won a fight in over a year. No win in over a year + no major win in almost five years + no plans to fight = no ranking, pound-for-pound.You're just fucking out of your mind. Apparently, you'll say anything to win an argument. I'll never pick Carlos Baldomir against Floyd Mayweather. I'm also not going to rank De la Hoya because he LOST to Floyd Mayweather.

[Double L]

Pacquiao hasn't had a major win in three years. The Morales he beat had already been exposed by a 10-pounds-lighter Barrera and a shit-boring Zahir Raheem. Since Pacquiao is refusing rematches with Marquez and Barrera, he probably shouldn't be in my top 25. I never rank fighters based on a loss, unless it was an iffy one. Mayweather-De la Hoya wasn't iffy. Also, De la Hoya hasn't won a fight in over a year. No win in over a year + no major win in almost five years + no plans to fight = no ranking, pound-for-pound.I'll never pick Carlos Baldomir against Floyd Mayweather. I'm also not going to rank De la Hoya because he LOST to Floyd Mayweather.
it's your list. not mine. and it's horrible. and shows that you're willing to look like a complete ass and suspend all reason just to make a point.

[Tam Tam]

i didn't say he hasn't beaten anybody. what i'm saying is everybody he has beaten he's done so through the use of brute force and strength. he's pretty much walked through guys. what i wanna know is what he's gonna do when that's not possible.
You can same the same thing about a lot of people though, mate. Thats the way boxing works. Everybody knows Vic is one dimensional, but that one dimension is significant as evidenced by the number of broken 112 pounders he's left behind.

Vic's faced trouble before against Pacheco...he survived and won via KO. Its not his fault with the circumstances surrounding that night. It reminds me of the heat excuse people use for Robinson v Maxim. Only one guy got hot? :dunno:

His wins over Sikali, Maldonado and Gabi are quality wins. Then again, I remember reading here that Gabi was the worst title challenger ever. :notallthere:

Nobody is perfect though and Vic's not close to that. There are fighters out there who could beat him. Martin Castillo and Mijares are two guys who would stand big chances. But they're a weight up and @ 112, the only guy who really takes the eye, is Wonjongkam...but that fight has zero chance of ever happening.

So if a guy is only going to get beaten by bigger opponents, why be so hard on him?

[Neil]

I'm sick of that bullshit excuse. You don't think fighting Barrera, Marquez and the top fighters of the division would make money?
.no, I dont

[Rubio MHS]

it's your list. not mine. and it's horrible. and shows that you're willing to look like a complete ass and suspend all reason just to make a point.What does that have to do with you ranking Oscar de la Hoya in the top 15 or 20, pound-for-pound? That's a retarded call, even for you.

[Double L]

Pacquiao hasn't had a major win in three years. The Morales he beat had already been exposed by a 10-pounds-lighter Barrera and a shit-boring Zahir Raheem. Since Pacquiao is refusing rematches with Marquez and Barrera, he probably shouldn't be in my top 25. I never rank fighters based on a loss, unless it was an iffy one. Mayweather-De la Hoya wasn't iffy. Also, De la Hoya hasn't won a fight in over a year. No win in over a year + no major win in almost five years + no plans to fight = no ranking, pound-for-pound.I'll never pick Carlos Baldomir against Floyd Mayweather. I'm also not going to rank De la Hoya because he LOST to Floyd Mayweather.

let me know the when Darchinyan has a major win. the next time will be the first time.

there's so much wrong with your list i'm surprised you even posted it. usually, you're not willing to go out on a limb like this. so i give you credit for that. but man, you're coming from an even worse place than i imagined.

[valdosta]

this list is pathetic. you have Barrera on top of Pacquiao? How in God's name is this?

Yes his list is pathetic. When you have to say anything to win an argument you didn't really win. I could tear apart most of the fighters listed like he did Pacquiao but to be honest I don't see the point of tearing down a bunch of fighters. The list speaks for itself. :lol:

[Double L]

What does that have to do with you ranking Oscar de la Hoya in the top 15 or 20, pound-for-pound? That's a retarded call, even for you.

where did i do that? suggest that? imply that?

i think there's too many variable here for you to keep track of. you need to keep the number of dimensions small - only then will you manage to make sense.

[Rubio MHS]

let me know the when Darchinyan has a major win. the next time will be the first time.

there's so much wrong with your list i'm surprised you even posted it. usually, you're not willing to go out on a limb like this. so i give you credit for that. but man, you're coming from an even worse place than i imagined.Pacheco and Malodano are better than anyone Ocar's beaten since Fernando Vargas in 2002.

[Double L]

You can same the same thing about a lot of people though, mate. Thats the way boxing works. Everybody knows Vic is one dimensional, but that one dimension is significant as evidenced by the number of broken 112 pounders he's left behind.

Vic's faced trouble before against Pacheco...he survived and won via KO. Its not his fault with the circumstances surrounding that night. It reminds me of the heat excuse people use for Robinson v Maxim. Only one guy got hot? :dunno:

His wins over Sikali, Maldonado and Gabi are quality wins. Then again, I remember reading here that Gabi was the worst title challenger ever. :notallthere:

Nobody is perfect though and Vic's not close to that. There are fighters out there who could beat him. Martin Castillo and Mijares are two guys who would stand big chances. But they're a weight up and @ 112, the only guy who really takes the eye, is Wonjongkam...but that fight has zero chance of ever happening.

So if a guy is only going to get beaten by bigger opponents, why be so hard on him?

i agree. strength, power and courage are all virtues. especially among boxers. so i guess it's stupid to discredit wins that have come by way of these.

but in terms of ranking him against the likes of ODH, even now? these things matter. can he move up and beat or even be comjpetitive with the best guys at 115? well, if he can't, i find it difficult to even talk about him in the same category as ODH, don't you?

i'm looking forward to Vic's next fight - i think Donaire is a real guy and a win over him will mean a lot.

[LATIN KING]

I don't think Pacquiao is scared but I'm glad the record shows it's not JMM who is no willing to make the rematch. He is considered by most people the champ at 130 and the toughest test for Pacquiao. PEriod!

I also said a long time ago that Pacquiao signing with Top Rank will get him paid but won't get him the meaningful fights. His fanatics are happy that he gets paid like they will actually see a dime from his purses.:laughing: while he fights the Solis type of fighters.

All I heard was how Arum was gonna make him a star in Asia, fighting in Macau and blah blah blah. He ended up fighting in Texas against a tonmato can with ARce and Chavez jr. to help sell the card.

fact is Pacquiao will end up fighting Soto who has proven nothing so far and hasn't even won a tittle. He will fight him because it's the biggest fight Arum can deliver for him being that he is also a top rank fighter.

fact is Pacquiao will fight shit competition from now on. At least people know JMM is willing to fight him while pacquiao isn't for whatever reason.:lol:

[Rubio MHS]

but in terms of ranking him against the likes of ODH, even now? these things matter. can he move up and beat or even be comjpetitive with the best guys at 115? well, if he can't, i find it difficult to even talk about him in the same category as ODH, don't you?So, you think Darchinyan shouldn't be ranked about De la Hoya because Darchinyan can't move up one weight division and beat the best there? Not only can't De la Hoya even think about moving up to 160, but he can't even beat the best fighters at 154. And 147.

[LATIN KING]

You are terrified of common sense. Pacquiao signed with Arum because Arum obviously gave him the best deal. Yeah fighters should be criticized for signing with the promoter that will pay the most. :notallthere:get the fuck out of here. Pacquiao will make money with anybody. But with Arum he was gonna be limited to fighting shit competition and it's already showing.

your right he is getting more money but dont' pretend the level of competition will be the same. AT least admit he picked the money over the competition.

[Double L]

i'm all for the Pacquiao/JMM rematch. and if it doesn't get made, shame on both guys. but let's face it, Soto would kick the shit out of Barrera. And Soto/JMM would be close. So if Pacquiao really does take on Soto, it's something.

[LATIN KING]

I hate to say it because pacman is one of the only remaining exciting wardog fighters in boxing, but I think he is soon done as an elite fighter.

He seems to be losing interest. Pursuing a career in politics, and now planning to go to law school :dunno:all my philipino friends think he is an idiot. The guy is in his prime and is fucking around with politics like it's common for a boxer to juggle the two things. :notallthere:

[Double L]

So, you think Darchinyan shouldn't be ranked about De la Hoya because Darchinyan can't move up one weight division and beat the best there? Not only can't De la Hoya even think about moving up to 160, but he can't even beat the best fighters at 154. And 147.

if ODH fought Spinks, and Vic fought Mijares, who do you think you'd rank higher?

[LATIN KING]

i'm all for the Pacquiao/JMM rematch. and if it doesn't get made, shame on both guys. but let's face it, Soto would kick the shit out of Barrera. And Soto/JMM would be close. So if Pacquiao really does take on Soto, it's something.based on what? he beat Juarez who is incredibly overrated.

Soto is a nice fighter but he is the 130 version of Margarito. A tough mexican fighter who is fun to watch that hasn't done shit to be considered that good.

Just cause Arum said so.:laughing: I mean let the guy beat a champion or someone worth a damn. He is about to fight bobby pacquiao who Carlos Hernandez beat not to long ago and got robbed. enough said. :dunno:

[Rubio MHS]

if ODH fought Spinks, and Vic fought Mijares, who do you think you'd rank higher?If Oscar de la Hoya fought Cory Spinks, they'd be selling snowcones in hell.

[slystaff]

23. Manny Pacquiao
You are a ridiculous insect.

[Double L]

If Oscar de la Hoya fought Cory Spinks, they'd be selling snowcones in hell.

and the same goes for Vic/Mijares. No? doesn't make the question any less relevant. care to answer it?

[valdosta]

get the fuck out of here. Pacquiao will make money with anybody. But with Arum he was gonna be limited to fighting shit competition and it's already showing.

your right he is getting more money but dont' pretend the level of competition will be the same. AT least admit he picked the money over the competition.

The guy has fought 1 damn time under Arum. Don't pretend like he's gone years fighting junk. That shit isn't right. He isn't like JMM who fought so much junk for so long.

[LATIN KING]

The guy has fought 1 damn time under Arum. Don't pretend like he's gone years fighting junk. That shit isn't right. He isn't like JMM who fought so much junk for so long.so what's the plan? let's face it most of the meaningful fights at 130 are with GB and tha'ts no secret.

He will end up facing overrated Soto only because Arum promotes him as well. Soto will dispose of bobby pacquiao and that will be enough reason to sell a fight with Manny not because i'ts the fight to make.

Seriously I still wonder how Soto became the man to beat at 130 by some people. :notallthere:

I guess that will be another ppv with chavez jr. on the undercard. But pacquiao will get a nice purse so who care who he fights right? :laughing:

[Kenny]

This is why boxing suck, people argue about bullshit. Pacquiao track record shows he'll eventually fight the top guys. People worn't complaning about how Morales suck before pacquiao distroyed him. You can't let Pacquiao slide for fighting Solis, but you can let Marquez slide for fighing Jaca or Jandaeng. I think you guys should chill out and let the clouds settle, the fight would usally come thats all we can ask for. The last information I heard, Valero team is not ready for pacquiao, Guzman is too fat, Barrera still has issue, and marquez... Why should he fight Marquez, so pacquiao haters can say how stupid he was taking 25% of the pot. If Marquez relly wants the fight, stop hiding behind his belt and do what Guzman is doing. Be his own man. Fucking boxing fans look at every fight as glass half empty. Thats why UFC is catching up to boxing.

[Rubio MHS]

and the same goes for Vic/Mijares. No? doesn't make the question any less relevant. care to answer it?:lol: :lol: :lol:

You're an idiot. Shaw's been trying to set up matches between Darchinyan and several fighters at 115, including Castillo and Arce (who have since lost). You simply don't know anything about the sport. Oscar would never fight a boring spoiler like Spinks, especially at this stage in his career, while Darchinyan's management has been shopping around for fights at 115.

[Double L]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

You're an idiot. Shaw's been trying to set up matches between Darchinyan and several fighters at 115, including Castillo and Arce (who have since lost). You simply don't know anything about the sport. Oscar would never fight a boring spoiler like Spinks, especially at this stage in his career, while Darchinyan's management has been shopping around for fights at 115.

we'll see. but in two responses, you've not answered my question.

[Rubio MHS]

This is why boxing suck, people argue about bullshit. Pacquiao track record shows he'll eventually fight the top guys.He hasn't fought anyone important in three years, and he's only beaten one or two top fighters in his entire career.

[Rubio MHS]

Well, here's your question:if ODH fought Spinks, and Vic fought Mijares, who do you think you'd rank higher?It's a moot question for two reasons:

De la Hoya will never fight Spinks, while Darchinyan might fight Mijares.
I don't rank fighters on who they fight; I rank them on who they beat. Further, I don't use supposition and fantasy in my rankings.

[Double L]

Pacquiao's wins:

1. Ledwaba by KO
2. Julio by KO
3. Barrera by KO
4. Morales x 2 by KO

[REEDsART]

Fightbeat Needs a SPAM Filter,to Prevent Threads like this...


REED:cool:

[KaukipRrr]

based on what? he beat Juarez who is incredibly overrated.

Soto is a nice fighter but he is the 130 version of Margarito. A tough mexican fighter who is fun to watch that hasn't done shit to be considered that good.



Margarito beats all your favourite midget fighters.

[Alabama_Man]

The most logical conclusion of this whole thread is for Yawn Manuel Fagquez to go back to Indonesia and take a $30,000 payday to get his revenge on Chris John. :lol:

[Haymaker]

It's funny the way these ignorants discredit the only man iin boxing who is dominant and is setting an example of fighting the best and beating them in dramatich fashion. And then these same idiots start crying about the state of the sport :rolleyes:

[LATIN KING]

funny how Pacquiao won't fight Marquez as a mandatory cause it doesn't make sense money wise. Yet they throw Guzman and Valero as possible oponents. Forgetting that Pacquiao is also the mandatory for those two belts. Shouldn't they get 75/25 on their mandatory defenses? :lol:

This is pacquiao's fault who signed two checks with GB and TR and thought that was a good idea to begin with. :doh: :laughing:


maybe a Solis rematch since Solis claims Pacquiao dont' hit hard. :dunno:

[Alabama_Man]

I honestly think Fagquez would find a way to lose to Chris John again and this time it would be for $20,000. :lol:

[valdosta]

I honestly think Fagquez would find a way to lose to Chris John again and this time it would be for $20,000. :lol:

He deserves a paycut after the first fight with John.

[Alabama_Man]

It's funny how these Pacquiao haters will accuse Manny of fighting crap after one fight under Arum's management (against a guy who was 32-0.. yeah... really crap :rolleyes: ) when Fagquez went for nearly 5 years fighting nobody after nobody, and losing to Freddie Norwood and Chris John along the way. Manny destroyed the top fighters at 122-126 for years, guys who had never been destroyed before, won fighter of the year honors, and is universally ranked P4P #2, not by me only, but by everyone else.

Then they state: Why can't Pac fight Marquez? Duh, the two promotional houses are in court right now in legal wrangling. Valdosta already showed how stupid it would be to let this thing go to purse bid when Pacquiao is the OBVIOUS money man, Fagquez couldn't even make a bus driver's yearly salary getting schooled in Indonesia, of course Pac isn't going to let the WBC dictate when and for how much this fight happens. That would be a shithead move.

Then the Manny haters say, why Valero, why Guzman? Because those two guys have promotional houses who are willing to do business unlike GBP. You'd think none of these guys took a remedial level business course in their lives.

The most obvious blunder made by Pac haters: This fight was supposed to happen 2 YEARS AGO, when both management teams were on somewhat friendly terms and Pac was willing to even take "short" money to make the fight happen. Fagquez was offered $750,000-$1,000,000 to make the rematch happen, up to that date money Fagquez had NEVER seen before and he FLAT OUT TURNED IT DOWN. There wasn't any legal excuse, no injury excuse, no nothing, Fagquez flat out refused to fight Pacquiao in a rematch for a career high payday and in his next fight took $30,000 to LOSE his belts to Chris John.

I can understand being biased for your preferred fighter, but how does a Fagquez fan excuse all of that, plus getting put on queer street by Freddie Norwood, and then getting schooled by Chris John for peanuts? He couldn't even beat down an OLD, shot, MAB and nearly got stopped in that fight. Yet you criticize Pac? :dunno:

[LATIN KING]

you talk about Marquez getting schooled in Indonesia and you question the knowledge of other posters? your so stupid your like a broken record repeating the same argument to the point where all you can do is talk about gay shit.

Even your boys in this message board called you out on the issues you have with marquez.

seriusly dude you argue like your 12 years old or something. Your the same clown who thought Pacquiao was gonna win the election and thought it was a good idea to juggle both politics and boxing. Even though anybody with half a brain knew it was a stupid idea to begin with.

I be you also think he will become a lawyer.:laughing:

your such a sheep your scared to rip your favorite fighter when you should. you actually think he is perfect and that shrine on your sig proves it. :lol:

I think JMM was a stupid idiot for going to indonesia for that much money and getting robbed. it's common sense.

see that wasn't that hard. :dunno:

pacquiao can fuck your girl and you would defend him. your a sad maricon :lol:

[KaukipRrr]

I think JMM was a stupid idiot for going to indonesia for that much money and getting robbed. it's common sense.

He didn't go there for the money, he went there for the same reason wealthy white tyrants make a quick undercover trip to Thailand annually, to have thier balls deflated,...:dunno: no shame in it really, he just let the wrong people photograph him,..

[Mean Mr Mustard]

Pacquiao can fuck your girl and you would defend him. your a sad maricon :lol:
Ouch.
:lol: :nono:

[dsimon3387]

He didn't go there for the money, he went there for the same reason wealthy white tyrants make a quick undercover trip to Thailand annually, to have thier balls deflated,...:dunno: no shame in it really, he just let the wrong people photograph him,..

dsimon writes:

Its true I don't know what LatinKings problem is. Marquez figured he would have an easy fight and get a whole horde of sexual partners... sort of a vacation where he had to take an easy fight to take the vacation!

[Alabama_Man]

you talk about Marquez getting schooled in Indonesia and you question the knowledge of other posters? your so stupid your like a broken record repeating the same argument to the point where all you can do is talk about gay shit.

Even your boys in this message board called you out on the issues you have with marquez.

seriusly dude you argue like your 12 years old or something. Your the same clown who thought Pacquiao was gonna win the election and thought it was a good idea to juggle both politics and boxing. Even though anybody with half a brain knew it was a stupid idea to begin with.

I be you also think he will become a lawyer.:laughing:

your such a sheep your scared to rip your favorite fighter when you should. you actually think he is perfect and that shrine on your sig proves it. :lol:

I think JMM was a stupid idiot for going to indonesia for that much money and getting robbed. it's common sense.

see that wasn't that hard. :dunno:

pacquiao can fuck your girl and you would defend him. your a sad maricon :lol:

People only get this angry when they know what the other person is saying is true. :lol:

Notice you didn't cover anything about how this fight was supposed to happen 2 years ago but your boy Fagquez ducked out to fight for peanuts in Indonesia? The fact is Fagquez has shown himself to be the one who is unwilling to make this fight happen under the optimal circumstances.

I always maintained that anything whether it be politics or law school would be a distraction for Pacquiao's boxing career. I was glad that Pacquiao lost the election.

Also, Fagquez wasn't robbed against John. Many people thought the fight was close, probably in Fagquez's favor, but certainly not some extreme robbery. Fagquez was tentative that fight. Besides, John was a guy that Fagquez was supposed to blow out, but tentative Fagquez gave rounds away. Pacquiao would've blown John out of the water.

[Alabama_Man]

dsimon writes:

Its true I don't know what LatinKings problem is. Marquez figured he would have an easy fight and get a whole horde of sexual partners... sort of a vacation where he had to take an easy fight to take the vacation!

Yeah I don't know why Latinking is so mad. Fagquez always goes to asia to find men. What do you think he did with the $30,000 he made against losing to Chris John?

Asian tranny booty call! :lol:

[Father of Muzse]

Yesterday, the Philippine Star is reported that Pacquiao won't take the fight with Marquez, sealing his mediocre career as a one-hit-wonder. He is also refusing a rematch with Barrera.

Both guys need him more than he needs them.

I don't think a rematch with Marquez is in JMM's best interest. Since their first fight, Manny's got better and Marquez has slowed down. Manny knocks him out clean next time.

[Double L]

it's weird. i never thought i'd say this, but i feel like i trust Arum's word over GBP's. and based on JMM's having turned down the rematch initially, i think the doubt has to be placed with him. no?

[Father of Muzse]

it's weird. i never thought i'd say this, but i feel like i trust Arum's word over GBP's. and based on JMM's having turned down the rematch initially, i think the doubt has to be placed with him. no?

JMM was with Arum when they turned it down the first time.

[Double L]

JMM was with Arum when they turned it down the first time.

yeah. that's a good point. still, i don't see why Pacquiao would duck JMM at this point. but i would understand why JMM would. like you said, it's JMM who has slowed down, while Pacquiao has never looked better.

[Alabama_Man]

I don't know why LATINKING is so mad. :dunno:

Yawn Fagquez seems like a pretty happy guy.

http://wbcjapan.hp.infoseek.co.jp/juanborneo.jpg
Yawn Fagquez enjoying a quiet moment with his special "friend."

http://wbcjapan.hp.infoseek.co.jp/juanitointervew.jpg
Fagquez discussing "strategy" in bed.

http://wbcjapan.hp.infoseek.co.jp/novio.jpg
Kissing a "good luck" charm.

http://wbcjapan.hp.infoseek.co.jp/fuan23.jpg
Fagquez relaxing after a hard workout.

http://wbcjapan.hp.infoseek.co.jp/fuan.jpg
Fagquez enjoying "Cock"-tails after a hard sparring session.

http://wbcjapan.hp.infoseek.co.jp/fuan3.jpg
Fagquez and his "friend" going to the club.

http://wbcjapan.hp.infoseek.co.jp/fuan6.jpg
Fagquez having some fun.

[Alabama_Man]

Sometimes even Rafael Fagquez enjoys a little company courtesy of his brother.

http://wbcjapan.hp.infoseek.co.jp/rafa12.jpg

[Alabama_Man]

http://wbcjapan.hp.infoseek.co.jp/fuan24.jpg
From Left to Right: LATINKING, Juan Manuel Fagquez, Chi Chi.

[Father of Muzse]

Exactly. As soon as he signed with Arum, I knew right away that he didn't want any big fights.

I guess I don't look at it this way...

JMM was with Top Rank then signed with Golden Boy. If Golden Boy TRULY wanted Pac, they would have come up with a better package to keep Manny in the fold.

Plus, they tinkered with Manny before he was legally able to sign with another promoter.

If you look at it from that perspective, you could say Golden Boy purposely (or stupidly) muddied the water to prevent JMM & Pac fighting again. They also took MAB out of the Pac picture as well.

[Alabama_Man]

I guess I don't look at it this way...

JMM was with Top Rank then signed with Golden Boy. If Golden Boy TRULY wanted Pac, they would have come up with a better package to keep Manny in the fold.

Plus, they tinkered with Manny before he was legally able to sign with another promoter.

If you look at it from that perspective, you could say Golden Boy purposely (or stupidly) muddied the water to prevent JMM & Pac fighting again. They also took MAB out of the Pac picture as well.

I think that's a good theory, but I just put it down to GBP being kind of inexperienced. They tried to sign a fighter who was still under contractual obligation now they are doing everything to cover up for their blunder.

I think Pacquiao-Fagquez will eventually happen, but it's not going to happen with a WBC purse bid.

[jarhead]

I just think there are far too many great fights for both guys to be making if this one is too dificult to get signed. Both should be cleaning out the division so a rematch is the only fight left.

[Father of Muzse]

I just think there are far too many great fights for both guys to be making if this one is too dificult to get signed. Both should be cleaning out the division so a rematch is the only fight left.

I'll tell you think much...if Pac takes on Valero, Valero will leave the ring first in linme to fight JMM.

[jarhead]

I'll tell you think much...if Pac takes on Valero, Valero will leave the ring first in linme to fight JMM.

So you think Valero beats Pac?:eeeek:

[Father of Muzse]

So you think Valero beats Pac?:eeeek:

Based on what I've seen...absolutely.

[joony]

Based on what I've seen...absolutely.

did u see valero's last fight? although he virtually won every round, he looked like a shit against some scrub.

[Father of Muzse]

did u see valero's last fight? although he virtually won every round, he looked like a shit against some scrub.


I think Valero's handspeed and counters will be too much for Manny to deal with.

Manny will get in his shots, but Valero's a strong puncher. Morales, MAB and JMM aren't strong punchers. Valero can match Pac in size, strength and speed and none of the Big Three Pac has faced can say as much.

That's why I'd favor Valero over Pac. I think he's got the chin to take Manny's shots.

[joony]

pac's experience would play a big factor. i'm not so sure who wins this fight, but it would be foolish for pac to take this fight when valero is virtually an unknown.

[mexican wedding shirt]

I think Valero's handspeed and counters will be too much for Manny to deal with.

Manny will get in his shots, but Valero's a strong puncher. Morales, MAB and JMM aren't strong punchers. Valero can match Pac in size, strength and speed and none of the Big Three Pac has faced can say as much.

That's why I'd favor Valero over Pac. I think he's got the chin to take Manny's shots.

Are you insane? I am wondering if you've actually seen valero fight. He's SLOW, fucking slow for a 130 pounder. And his technique is awful. He somehow has heavy hands, but he's slow as shit, and his arsenal, technique and skill is nowhere near pacman's.

I recently made a post about how pacman is soon done as an elite fighter, with all this politics and law school bullshit, but he'd still beat the fuck out of valero without even trying.

In all seriousness Musze. you mentioning valero's handspeed in a positive light makes me question if you've even seen him fight. You'd be hard pushed to get anyone else agree that valero has fast hands. His punches are slow and laboured.

[Father of Muzse]

Are you insane? I am wondering if you've actually seen valero fight. He's SLOW, fucking slow for a 130 pounder. And his technique is awful. He somehow has heavy hands, but he's slow as shit, and his arsenal, technique and skill is nowhere near pacman's.

I recently made a post about how pacman is soon done as an elite fighter, with all this politics and law school bullshit, but he'd still beat the fuck out of valero without even trying.

In all seriousness Musze. you mentioning valero's handspeed in a positive light makes me question if you've even seen him fight. You'd be hard pushed to get anyone else agree that valero has fast hands. His punches are slow and laboured.

I've have the video of valero sparring with Morales and his counters were crisp on on point and his handspeed was on point.

I've also seen the fights that are posted on YouTube (not his last his though) and I stand by what I've said regarding his handspeed. Valero's very good at countering cats.

I've also seen the sparring footage Maxboxing had of him with Urbano Antillon and the Santa Cruz brothers...I believe it was Antillion that he caught with a shot that literally froze the guy. Antillion was out on his feet and the shot damn near ripped his headgear off. Based on those videos, I'd have to argue how you COULDN'T say he had good handspeed.

Also, I forget exactly which fight it was...perhaps it was the Lozada fight, but he caught the guy with a great counter shot which pretty much starched him right then and there.

Valero's technique was MUCH better when he trained in the States with Joe Hernandez and company but now that he lives and trains in Japan, he doesn't get the same quality sparring he once had and he's pretty much goes for 1st round KO's and doesn't set up his punches as well.

There's no question the guy has skill and talent.

Yes his footwork can be shoddy, but so is Manny's. It's not like Manny's a classic boxer either. Add to the fact that valero's also a southpaw, with a longer reach and he's taller than Pac...that has upset written all over it.

To answer your questions...

1). I'm not insane.

2). I have seen Valero fight and stand by what I said.

[Baron]

I've have the video of valero sparring with Morales and his counters were crisp on on point and his handspeed was on point.

I've also seen the fights that are posted on YouTube (not his last his though) and I stand by what I've said regarding his handspeed. Valero's very good at countering cats.

I've also seen the sparring footage Maxboxing had of him with Urbano Antillon and the Santa Cruz brothers...I believe it was Antillion that he caught with a shot that literally froze the guy. Antillion was out on his feet and the shot damn near ripped his headgear off. Based on those videos, I'd have to argue how you COULDN'T say he had good handspeed.

Also, I forget exactly which fight it was...perhaps it was the Lozada fight, but he caught the guy with a great counter shot which pretty much starched him right then and there.

Valero's technique was MUCH better when he trained in the States with Joe Hernandez and company but now that he lives and trains in Japan, he doesn't get the same quality sparring he once had and he's pretty much goes for 1st round KO's and doesn't set up his punches as well.

There's no question the guy has skill and talent.

Yes his footwork can be shoddy, but so is Manny's. It's not like Manny's a classic boxer either. Add to the fact that valero's also a southpaw, with a longer reach and he's taller than Pac...that has upset written all over it.

To answer your questions...

1). I'm not insane.

2). I have seen Valero fight and stand by what I said.I think you're leaving Pacquiao's straighter and faster punches out of the equation here Musze. Yes, Valero is powerfull, but he loops his punches and even though he looked fast in these sparring sessions, his punches are often telegraphed. I think Pacquiao would get his straight left in there more often than not before Valero's looping right hook or his looping left hand reaches Pac. Also, Pac may not be a dancer but I'd say he moves in and out fast enough to methodically beat up Valero. Right now, I'd pick Pac without blinking.

[Baron]

I'd also venture to say that if Pac and Valero throw a right hook at the same time, Pac's hook get there first.

[Father of Muzse]

I'd also venture to say that if Pac and Valero throw a right hook at the same time, Pac's hook get there first.

It depends on the distance and whether Valero could time Pac as he came in...I fully expect him to be able to do this.

Plus, he countered well when going backward and that's a damn hard thing to do and have power on his punches...Valero has shown the ability to do this.

Lastly, while Pac throws straighter punches, when he misses he's horribly off balance. A well timed counter puts Pac on his ass.

[Baron]

It depends on the distance and whether Valero could time Pac as he came in...I fully expect him to be able to do this.

Plus, he countered well when going backward and that's a damn hard thing to do and have power on his punches...Valero has shown the ability to do this.

Lastly, while Pac throws straighter punches, when he misses he's horribly off balance. A well timed counter puts Pac on his ass.Good points. But none of the guys he countered going backward had the explosiveness of Manny Pacquiao. I think you might be under estimating Pacquiao's ability to land his shot on the pretty open Valero but I must admit that I might be underestimating Valero's ability to put Pacquiao in vulnerable positions when he (Valero) gets on the backfoot. I agree that if he can do that consistently, it won't matter if he loops his punches or not, he'll land.

[Father of Muzse]

Good points. But none of the guys he countered going backward had the explosiveness of Manny Pacquiao. I think you might be under estimating Pacquiao's ability to land his shot on the pretty open Valero but I must admit that I might be underestimating Valero's ability to put Pacquiao in vulnerable positions when he (Valero) gets on the backfoot. I agree that if he can do that consistently, it won't matter if he loops his punches or not, he'll land.

And by not knowing how each would handle the others strengths, that's what makes it such a great fight.

We've already seen Pac and what he can do against JMM & MAB. Both have gotten older and slower. The only thing that would change is how much easier he'd dispatch of both.

Pac-Valero is the best fight at 130.

Pac vs Guzman would be a good scrap if Guzman looked to fight and not be cute with Manny.

I bet Valero catches Manny with uppercuts as he goes back. If that's the case, looping punches aren't a factor.

[steve_dave]

And by not knowing how each would handle the others strengths, that's what makes it such a great fight.

We've already seen Pac and what he can do against JMM & MAB. Both have gotten older and slower. The only thing that would change is how much easier he'd dispatch of both.

Pac-Valero is the best fight at 130.

Pac vs Guzman would be a good scrap if Guzman looked to fight and not be cute with Manny.

I bet Valero catches Manny with uppercuts as he goes back. If that's the case, looping punches aren't a factor.

I agree 100%.

[mexican wedding shirt]

I've have the video of valero sparring with Morales and his counters were crisp on on point and his handspeed was on point.

I've also seen the fights that are posted on YouTube (not his last his though) and I stand by what I've said regarding his handspeed. Valero's very good at countering cats.

I've also seen the sparring footage Maxboxing had of him with Urbano Antillon and the Santa Cruz brothers...I believe it was Antillion that he caught with a shot that literally froze the guy. Antillion was out on his feet and the shot damn near ripped his headgear off. Based on those videos, I'd have to argue how you COULDN'T say he had good handspeed.

Also, I forget exactly which fight it was...perhaps it was the Lozada fight, but he caught the guy with a great counter shot which pretty much starched him right then and there.

Valero's technique was MUCH better when he trained in the States with Joe Hernandez and company but now that he lives and trains in Japan, he doesn't get the same quality sparring he once had and he's pretty much goes for 1st round KO's and doesn't set up his punches as well.

There's no question the guy has skill and talent.

Yes his footwork can be shoddy, but so is Manny's. It's not like Manny's a classic boxer either. Add to the fact that valero's also a southpaw, with a longer reach and he's taller than Pac...that has upset written all over it.

To answer your questions...

1). I'm not insane.

2). I have seen Valero fight and stand by what I said.


I have now seen most of his pro fights, including the last few, and the guy doesn't have good handspeed, not even close.

He isn't even a good counter puncher, nor is his timing anything special. He has hardly any skill.

He has less skill and technique than mayorga. In fact, mayo at 154 seriously has faster hands than valero. Which of his pro fights have you seen?

Valero has heavy hands, and that's IT. His fight with bando is very funny, and a fun beating, but he is not on pacman's level.

His defense is shit too, have you seen the mosquera fight?

Pacman would steamroll him.

[mexican wedding shirt]

Also Musze, as you know all the way from the SO days, I love attacking fighters, they are pretty much the only fighters I like. Attacking fighters with skill, that's why Duran is my favourite of all time, and that's why I love Morales, Chico, Pacman etc.

So my point is, I have no reason to dislike valero at all, he is an attacking fighter, and he is damn funny looking :lol:

But he is simply not much good, I have seen most of his pro fights, and I still just can't understand how you can mention his handspeed.

The first thing I noticed when I saw him fight is DAMN this guy is slow for a 130 pounder, his punches are VERY telegraphed and he has the handspeed of a middleweight.

[Father of Muzse]

Also Musze, as you know all the way from the SO days, I love attacking fighters, they are pretty much the only fighters I like. Attacking fighters with skill, that's why Duran is my favourite of all time, and that's why I love Morales, Chico, Pacman etc.

So my point is, I have no reason to dislike valero at all, he is an attacking fighter, and he is damn funny looking :lol:

But he is simply not much good, I have seen most of his pro fights, and I still just can't understand how you can mention his handspeed.

The first thing I noticed when I saw him fight is DAMN this guy is slow for a 130 pounder, his punches are VERY telegraphed and he has the handspeed of a middleweight.

We'll have to disagree then. I can't for the life of me understand how you can say the guy is slow. More importantly, the comparison to Mayorga is ridiculous.

The only thing I can think of is you're confusing Valero with Ponce De Leon. That guy is slow and has awful technique. Even that doesn't make sense because De Leon fights at 122.

And yes I saw the fight with Mosquera on YouTube. I thought it was a good scrap and it illustrates how Manny could have success against him. Conversely, it shows how an aggressive fighter coming towards him will get caught coming in.

That's why I want to see Pac-Valero. I think most will be surprised at how competitive the fight is. No matter who the winner is, the fight is guaranteed to end by KO.

[mexican wedding shirt]

No clearly I am not confusing him with anyone, I've seen almost all of his fights, including the mosquera fight in good quality.

In which of his fights has he looked fast exactly?

Valero is slow of hand and foot, and his punches ARE telegraphed, he clearly has naturally heavy hands but he really pushes his punches out there, they are not fast or snappy.

[mexican wedding shirt]

Comparing Valero to Mayorga is not ridiculous at all. Valero beat Mosquera who is pretty good, but valero was knocked down, stunned and took a LOT of punches in that fight. He won by stoppage fair and square, and showed a fair amount of toughness down the stretch, but I was not really impressed.

Mayo decimated six heads, and KO'd forrest.

So far valero isn't as proven as mayo and hasn't got a win on the level of forrest.

[Father of Muzse]

No clearly I am not confusing him with anyone, I've seen almost all of his fights, including the mosquera fight in good quality.

In which of his fights has he looked fast exactly?

Valero is slow of hand and foot, and his punches ARE telegraphed, he clearly has naturally heavy hands but he really pushes his punches out there, they are not fast or snappy.

I'm literally watching the sparring video with Morales as I type...his hands aren't slow. Mind you, it's sparring and they're not going full speed either. Valero's a good reflexsive counterpuncher. That can't be taught. Either yopu have it or you don't.

Like I said in an earlier post, his fundamentals went downhill once he stopped sparring in the L.A. area. He's not as good technically as he used to be but the handspeed is still there.

Valero's one of the few guys who can step back and punch with power. Manny can only fight in one direction and that's moving forward. Defensively he's got tons of holes, but so does Manny...that's why this is a great fight.

[Tam Tam]

Valero is pretty quick, he has shown flashes of skill and timing....but its also pretty clear that he's regressing. He shows none of his obviously available technique in his fights and simply loves to throw that left hand.

He sure is quick though. No doubt. Also, he's fifty times as skilled as Mayorga ever was.

I also think he's more skilled that Corrales. Diego had one really good skill; punching technique. He trumps Valero rather bad there. But Chico's footwork was poor, his defense non existent, he didn't throw a jab and his right hand wasn't natural.

Doesn't mean he couldn't fight. Just means I don't think he belongs in a discussion of 'skilled attacking fighters'.

[mexican wedding shirt]

I don't care about the sparring session, just tell me let's say in his last 6 pro fights, which one is a good example of his handspeed in your opinion?

[Father of Muzse]

I don't care about the sparring session, just tell me let's say in his last 6 pro fights, which one is a good example of his handspeed in your opinion?

Did you read my post where I talked about the Lozada KO?

I addressed already.

I'm pretty sure that's the fight...I'll take another look at it when I get home.

[steve_dave]

Valero obviously has handspeed.

[Father of Muzse]

Valero is pretty quick, he has shown flashes of skill and timing....but its also pretty clear that he's regressing. He shows none of his obviously available technique in his fights and simply loves to throw that left hand.

He sure is quick though. No doubt. Also, he's fifty times as skilled as Mayorga ever was.

I also think he's more skilled that Corrales. Diego had one really good skill; punching technique. He trumps Valero rather bad there. But Chico's footwork was poor, his defense non existent, he didn't throw a jab and his right hand wasn't natural.

Doesn't mean he couldn't fight. Just means I don't think he belongs in a discussion of 'skilled attacking fighters'.

Thank you.

I think MWS is extremely offbase with his assessment of Valero. That's whyt I thought he possibly had him confused with Ponce De Leon.

[mexican wedding shirt]

Valero is pretty quick, he has shown flashes of skill and timing....but its also pretty clear that he's regressing. He shows none of his obviously available technique in his fights and simply loves to throw that left hand.

He sure is quick though. No doubt. Also, he's fifty times as skilled as Mayorga ever was.

I also think he's more skilled that Corrales. Diego had one really good skill; punching technique. He trumps Valero rather bad there. But Chico's footwork was poor, his defense non existent, he didn't throw a jab and his right hand wasn't natural.

Doesn't mean he couldn't fight. Just means I don't think he belongs in a discussion of 'skilled attacking fighters'.

Diego's punching skill was phenominal. His timing, accuracy, and short range power was superb. Your right his footwork was terrible and he was 1 dimensional, but his attacking skill was second to none.

Valero's defense is bad, he is very hittable.

And tam - how about you? In which of his last 5 or 6 pro fights has his handspeed looked good? I think he looks proper slow, and it's only recently I finished watching his most recent fights. His punches are laboured and telegraphed, but I admit he has real power, for sure.

Pacman's punches are about 10 times faster.

[mexican wedding shirt]

You're all fucking mad, I wondered if I was the crazy one, but no...

Please - look at this fight now, it's the 3rd, yes only the 3rd round of the mosquera fight...

Look how slow and sloppy his right jab is, look how telegraphed and slow his straifght left is, and look how FUCKING slow and clumsy his right hook is, my god. How can you say this fighter is fast? How how how?

Please, just look

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MPNmAg7_5E

[Alabama_Man]

Valero is not a bum, but his punches are too telegraphed to beat anyone at the elite level. He went life and death with a guy who had a 50% knockout percentage, and was put on queer street. Valero has very average hand speed, and added to the fact that he loops his punches, he would get beatup by any decent 130 pounder.

I'd venture to say that Pacquiao, Morales, Barrera, Soto, and Fagquez would beat him now, no problem. It would be fun to watch though. :clap:

[Father of Muzse]

You're all fucking mad, I wondered if I was the crazy one, but no...

Please - look at this fight now, it's the 3rd, yes only the 3rd round of the mosquera fight...

Look how slow and sloppy his right jab is, look how telegraphed and slow his straifght left is, and look how FUCKING slow and clumsy his right hook is, my god. How can you say this fighter is fast? How how how?

Please, just look

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MPNmAg7_5E

It's interesting you post the round Valero was knocked down in...how about the first round when Mosquera goes down twice (granted, the first KD wasn't much) or how about posting the end of the fight when Valero was teeing off on him.

:lol:

[Father of Muzse]

Valero is not a bum, but his punches are too telegraphed to beat anyone at the elite level. He went life and death with a guy who had a 50% knockout percentage, and was put on queer street. Valero has very average hand speed, and added to the fact that he loops his punches, he would get beatup by any decent 130 pounder.

I'd venture to say that Pacquiao, Morales, Barrera, Soto, and Fagquez would beat him now, no problem. It would be fun to watch though. :clap:

We know your record with Pacquaio...you're DQ'd from the convo from the onset.

:lol:

[mexican wedding shirt]

Valero is not a bum, but his punches are too telegraphed to beat anyone at the elite level. He went life and death with a guy who had a 50% knockout percentage, and was put on queer street. Valero has very average hand speed, and added to the fact that he loops his punches, he would get beatup by any decent 130 pounder.

I'd venture to say that Pacquiao, Morales, Barrera, Soto, and Fagquez would beat him now, no problem. It would be fun to watch though. :clap:

Yes, thankyou, finally someone else who sees sense. His punches are very telegraphed, and often downright clumsy. I would honestly go as far as to say his handspeed is below average.

Even shot Morales I would pick over Valero, and Marquez and Barrera for sure.

[mexican wedding shirt]

It's interesting you post the round Valero was knocked down in...how about the first round when Mosquera goes down twice (granted, the first KD wasn't much) or how about posting the end of the fight when Valero was teeing off on him.

:lol:

That's completely beside the point, I just picked a fight that was fresh in my mind. I could not find the first round or the full fight on youtube, only that round.

I'm giving an example of his handspeed before he is knocked down, the clip ends when he goes down, so it's not relevant at all.

Simply look at his handspeed, honestly, just look at his jab, straight left and right hook. They are fucking slow and clumsy.

[Alabama_Man]

We know your record with Pacquaio...you're DQ'd from the convo from the onset.

:lol:

Who has Valero beaten or faced that is on the elite level? :dunno:

[valdosta]

I'll tell you think much...if Pac takes on Valero, Valero will leave the ring first in linme to fight JMM.

Pacquiao KILLS Valero. Sends him back to Venezuela or wherever in a fucking coffin. Valero is not good. :kick:

[Tam Tam]

While I'll defend Valero when I feel he's bee mislabed (as I'd do with any fighter not named Juan Manuel Marquez) I see next to no reason why he wouldn't be lit up by Manny Pacquiao. Badly.

[Double L]

Valero reminds me of Monzon - like Monzon, I think Valero is deceptively skilled. And no, I'm not saying Valero is as good as Monzon. But I do agree that hand-speed is not one of Valero's strong suits.

[mexican wedding shirt]

Monzon was also pretty slow of hand, but Monzon was technically very good. He was far more skilled than Valero.

I like King Carlos, and he sure as hell didn't throw the kind of retarded, sloppy, clumsy punches than Valero does.

Monzon's punches were slow-ish and somewhat telegraphed, but less so than the Medievil Monk, and that's the only similarity.

[Double L]

Monzon was also pretty slow of hand, but Monzon was technically very good. He was far more skilled than Valero.

I like King Carlos, and he sure as hell didn't throw the kind of retarded, sloppy, clumsy punches than Valero does.

Monzon's punches were slow-ish and somewhat telegraphed, but less so than the Medievil Monk, and that's the only similarity.

I don't know. I would definitely call some of Monzon's punches sloppy. Again, I'm not saying Valero is as good as Monzon. But I think he's wired similarly, and when Valero decides to box, he's in a rhythm similar to Monzon's - controlling distance, using the 1-2 with discipline, and keeping his opponent turning.

[Alabama_Man]

I don't know. I would definitely call some of Monzon's punches sloppy. Again, I'm not saying Valero is as good as Monzon. But I think he's wired similarly, and when Valero decides to box, he's in a rhythm similar to Monzon's - controlling distance, using the 1-2 with discipline, and keeping his opponent turning.

Are you giving Valero "moral" support? :dunno:

[Double L]

Are you giving Valero "moral" support? :dunno:

is this you dismissing my entire post without even explaining why?

[Mr Kumbaya]

Comparing the greatest middleweight of all-time, a master technician...to a crazy fuckoff brawler? Right. Brilliant move.

[Double L]

Comparing the greatest middleweight of all-time, a master technician...to a crazy fuckoff brawler? Right. Brilliant move.

i knew some dumb-ass would make a post like this. :lol:

[Mr Kumbaya]

i knew some dumb-ass would make a post like this. :lol:
You're asking for more of the same from anyone who reads that filth.

[mexican wedding shirt]

Well it's true, you ARE comparing the greatest middleweight of all time and a great technician, to a sloppy monk puncher. Like I said, Monzon's punches could be a little telegraphed but that's where the similarity ends.

Funnily enough, Valero is just as slow as Monzon, but Monzon was a middleweight.

[Father of Muzse]

We'll have to agree to disagree MWS...

I watched the Lozado fight again and all it did is prove what I'd said earlier about Valero being fast on the counter punches.

Lozado stepped toward him and he countered Lozado with a straight left (which basically KO'd him) and a right hook. Those two shots landed before Lozado could get his first punch off.

Secondly, I rewatched both sparring sessions with Morales and the Mosquera fight and my opinion doesn't change.

I see Valero mixing up the speed of his shots to keep the guy off balance. Sometimes he throws a lazy jab, sometimes he throws off speed straight lefts but when he throws for speed it confuses the opponent.

The biggest problem Valero has (outside of footwork) is that he doesn't move his head at all and raises his chin when he punches. Then again, Pacquiao has the same problem plus Pac's balance is worse.

The best course of action vs Pac is to stand your ground and catch him as he's coming in. Once JMM figured out the speed of the straight left, he timed Manny with right hands the rest of the night. The problem for JMM now is that Manny's got a right hook.

Morales had problems in the third fight because he spent so much time preparing for the straight left that the first right hook he got nailed with scared the hell out of him.

I don't think Valero has the issues handling Pac's shots because he's taller and he's a southpaw as well. Plus, as I mentioned earlier, his ability to counter and stand his ground will place him in perfect position to catch Manny as Manny's coming in. I see Manny getting caught coming in the same way Holyfield stepped back and caught Tyson in the 10th round of their first fight.

I think it's a great fight and one that Valero could certainly win.

[mexican wedding shirt]

Musze maybe you being impressed with his reactions and quickness to actually pull the trigger is leading you to overrate his handspeed.

The pure velocity of his punches is not fast, not by any stretch of the imagination.

Pacman's straight left just snaps out there like a bullet, valero's is telegraped and laboured, albeit powerful.

Like Alabama man, I don't think valero is a complete bum, he is a decent fighter at world level to be able to stop mosquera, but i was still not overly impressed.

It was only last week I watched the mosquera fight.

You cannot possibly say his handspeed looked good in that fight. As before, even if you like his timing and quickness to pull the trigger, his handspeed was significantly worse than mosquera's. Mosquera had the faster hands in that fight, and he's not exactly a speed demon.

Not only that, but did Valero not look very hittable in that fight to you? Not just the 3rd round either, all the way up to the round before mosquera was stopped.


Ironically, as Rubio has also sussed out, Pacman seems to have lost interest in boxing, and I am highly doubtful of him remaining an elite fighter now, along with his foray into politics and law school.

Thus, Manny is going to lose somewhat soon if he continues fighting.

But even the pacman we saw up until his last fight would crush valero, and I would still pick him over the monk.

And believe me, I don't actually DISLIKE valero like I did with people like tszyu, I would not root against him for the sake of it, I just don't think he is very good.

[Father of Muzse]

Musze maybe you being impressed with his reactions and quickness to actually pull the trigger is leading you to overrate his handspeed.

The pure velocity of his punches is not fast, not by any stretch of the imagination.

Pacman's straight left just snaps out there like a bullet, valero's is telegraped and laboured, albeit powerful.

Like Alabama man, I don't think valero is a complete bum, he is a decent fighter at world level to be able to stop mosquera, but i was still not overly impressed.

It was only last week I watched the mosquera fight.

You cannot possibly say his handspeed looked good in that fight. As before, even if you like his timing and quickness to pull the trigger, his handspeed was significantly worse than mosquera's. Mosquera had the faster hands in that fight, and he's not exactly a speed demon.

Not only that, but did Valero not look very hittable in that fight to you? Not just the 3rd round either, all the way up to the round before mosquera was stopped.


Ironically, as Rubio has also sussed out, Pacman seems to have lost interest in boxing, and I am highly doubtful of him remaining an elite fighter now, along with his foray into politics and law school.

Thus, Manny is going to lose somewhat soon if he continues fighting.

But even the pacman we saw up until his last fight would crush valero, and I would still pick him over the monk.

And believe me, I don't actually DISLIKE valero like I did with people like tszyu, I would not root against him for the sake of it, I just don't think he is very good.

I just look at things differently I guess.

There's different kinds of handspped. For instance, Shane Mosley's hands are fast when he's leading, but he's not a great counterpuncher and doesn't pull the trigger quickly on the counter. Mayweather is fast either way, but he's better on the counter.

I saw the complete Mosquera fight shortly after it happened as well as the Lozada fight from earlier this year.

I've always said I don't downgrade guys on if they get hit, but HOW they get hit. The same goes for how guys throw punches and the timing they've got on those shots.

Valero's better than he's given credit for on this board. Do I think he'd beat Pac? Yes I do. Both guys would have their moments, but I don't think for a second that Manny runs over the guy.

Valero's got too much going for him to get run over by Pac. I ordered Pac's fight with Solis and there's no way you can make any kind of comparison between Solis and Valero. Solis didn't have the physical strength to deal with Pac and more importantly, he didn't have the balls to stand his ground and catch Manny coming in.

As stated earlier, Pac-Valero is teh best fight at 130 followed by Pac-Guzman. Those are the fights I want to see, not Pac vs the 30+ Mexican legend club.

[jarhead]

I have only seen Valero in one fight and then a few clips here and there so my opinion isn't expert by any means. I just think he could use a few step up fights before going in there with Pac. Who promotes Valero, anyone know?:dunno:

[mexican wedding shirt]

I agree, mosley has very fast hands, they used to be extremely fast, but he's not THAT fast pulling the trigger, his reactions to seeing an opening and timing isn't great.

But if it's just handspeed we're talking about, then fuck yes, Mosley is fast.

I guess I am talking about the pure velocity of the punches, how quickly they reach the target, and how hard they are to see coming.

Judging in a pure handspeed sense, valero's hands are plain slow.

I think you simply mean he is quick to pull the trigger.

You're no idiot Musze, you must realize that valero's actual handspeed is not fast, ie the speed that his punches travel at.