The other side of SICKO....

[Tyler Durden]

I like how they say Canada has longer wait times while glossing over Canada also has higher number of insured and ranked higher in care. I also like how they gloss over pre-existing conditions to deny coverage is laughable, and disgusting. A "substantial drop " still almost a trillion dollars :lol:

Saving 1200$ a year? Oh joy, what is the final dollar amount after the savings :nono:

45 million instead of 50 million? Argue semantics much :doh:

This dufus is in the bag :warning:


'Sicko' Film Gives Accused Little Say
By KEVIN FREKING and LINDA A. JOHNSON (Associated Press Writer)
From Associated Press
June 30, 2007 12:03 PM EDT
WASHINGTON - In many respects, Michael Moore's new movie, "Sicko," is like a trial for those who oversee health care in the United States.
The industry - doctors, drug makers, hospitals, insurers - is charged with greed and putting personal interests above patients'. Moore heard from thousands of people who had maddening and heartbreaking brushes with this system.
As chief prosecutor, Moore lets them do most of the talking and weaves their stories into the film with wit, compassion and humor.
<SCRIPT>document.write('<iframe style="float:right;margin-left:5px" src="http://ad.doubleclick.net/adi/news.earthlink.dart/news_np300x250;sz=300x250;ptile=5;ord='+rand+'?" width="300" height="250" frameborder="no" border="0" marginwidth="0" marginheight="0" scrolling="no">http://ad.doubleclick.net/ad/news.earthlink.dart/news_np300x250;abr=!ie;sz=300x250;ptile=5;ord='+ra nd+'? (http://ad.doubleclick.net/jump/news.earthlink.dart/news_np300x250;abr=!ie;sz=300x250;ptile=5;ord='+ra nd+'?)</iframe>');</SCRIPT>But one aspect missing from the film is the defense. Do not expect to hear anyone speak well of the care they received in the U.S. On the other hand, patients and doctors from Canada, Britain, France and Cuba marvel at their health care.
Moore tells viewers there are about 50 million people in the U.S. without health insurance.
Just this past week, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention estimated there are about 43.6 million uninsured people in the country. In March, the Census Bureau put the number at 44.8 million.
Moore noted that about 18,000 people die each year as a result of the lack of health insurance. That number comes for a January 2004 report from the Institute of Medicine. The report said the uninsured do not get the care they need and are more likely to die prematurely.
Taking on the pharmaceutical industry, Moore says it spent millions of dollars lobbying Congress for a Medicare prescription drug benefit.
"Of course it was really a bill to hand over $800 billion of our tax dollars to the drug and health insurance industry," he said.
Moore is citing the projected cost for the Medicare drug benefit's first 10 years.
Last year, however, Medicare officials told The Associated Press that the projected cost of the benefit through 2015 stood at about $729 billion, a substantial drop compared with original estimates.
Moore also noted the some of the elderly in the drug program could end up paying more for their prescriptions than they did before. That is true. But the vast majority do save because of the tens of billions of dollars in annual government subsidies to help cover the cost of their medicine. The Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services says people save about $1,200 a year on average by participating in the program, called Medicare Part D.
At one point, Moore notes where the U.S. ranks in terms of health care around the world.
"The United States slipped to No. 37 in health care around the world, just slightly ahead of Slovenia," he said.
That ranking is based on a 2000 report from the World Health Organization that some health analysts viewed as misleading.
Moore does not say that one of the countries he highlighted, Cuba, is ranked 39th, below the U.S. Among the others, France is ranked No. 1, the United Kingdom ranked 18th and Canada ranked 30th. He does not give those rankings, either.
The report, based on 1997 data, measured not just the quality of care provided, but how well the countries prevented illness and how fairly the poor, minorities and other special populations are treated.
Moore's film includes security video showing a disoriented elderly woman in a hospital gown and slippers wandering in the gutter of a busy Los Angeles street. Kaiser Permanente Bellflower Medical Center near Los Angeles had discharged her and sent her off in a cab. Eventually, a staff member from the Union Rescue Mission in the city's crime-ridden Skid Row area comes out to help the woman.
The March 2006 incident was widely documented. This May, Kaiser Permanente, the country's biggest health maintenance organization, reached a settlement with Los Angeles prosecutors requiring Kaiser to make changes to end the dumping of homeless patients on streets.
Los Angeles authorities are investigating allegations that a dozen area hospitals have dumped more than 50 homeless patients downtown. On Wednesday, prosecutors filed civil complaints against two other hospitals and a transportation service accusing them of dumping homeless patients in Skid Row.
In the movie, Moore correctly states that the chief executives of health insurance companies make millions of dollars a year.
Among the insurers mentioned are Humana Inc., where chief executive Michael McCallister received about $5.9 million in salary and other compensation in 2006, and Aetna Inc., where chief executive Ronald Williams last year received salary and other compensation totaling about $30.9 million. Those figures were determined by an AP analysis of company filings with the Securities and Exchange Commission.
Huge executive salaries are the norm in all of corporate America. An AP analysis of 386 Fortune 500 companies' executive compensation reports showed that half the CEOs made more than $8.3 million last year.
In the film, an insurance company call center employee says her company has a list of pre-existing conditions that would "wrap around this house." The conditions, including diabetes, heart disease and cancer, make applicants ineligible for coverage. Numerous disorders then scrolls up a black screen in yellow letters - think of the "Star Wars" movie introductions.
Karen Ignagni, president and chief executive of the trade group America's Health Insurance Plans, said Moore does not identify the plan involved but that it is not a typical one. She said about 17 million people in the U.S. are insured under individual plans and an additional 200 million under group plans.
"If that list were true, none of those people would be getting health insurance," Ignagni said.
Ignagni said decisions about which treatments are covered by a plan are made by the sponsor, such as an employer, not by the insurer.
Moore also takes on the notion that universal health coverage leads to longer waits in hospital emergency rooms and to see doctors.
He visited a crowded emergency room in Canada and asked patients how long they had to wait. One said 20 minutes; a second said 45 minutes. "I got help right away," a third said.
Yet a recent report from the Commonwealth Fund indicates that wait times in the U.S. are clearly shorter than they are in Canada.
In all areas measured, the U.S. fared better than Canada. For example, 24 percent of Canadians waited four hours or longer to be seen in the emergency room versus 12 percent in the U.S. The difference was more acute when it came time to see a specialist. Fifty-seven percent of Canadians waited four weeks or longer to see a specialist versus 23 percent in the U.S.
The Commonwealth Fund also monitored wait times in Britain, which has universal health care. The wait times for emergency room care were comparable to those in the U.S.. There was a big difference when it came time to see a specialist - 60 percent in Britain waited four weeks or longer.
The film concludes with a trip to Cuba where Moore seeks care for a group of workers who have experienced health problems after responding to 2001 terrorist attacks. They are greeted with open arms at a hospital in Havana and given what appears to be top-notch care that they could not get in the U.S. The question left for viewers to ponder is whether Cubans are given such red carpet treatment, too.

[steve_dave]

Canada > USA when it comes to Health Care.

[I and I]

THE FILM CREW IS WELCOMED WITH OPEN ARMS

More bullshit from the rightwing fucktards.

Moore has said in 3 interviews that I have heard that the cuban govt didn't want him and his crew their and it took a while to talk them into agreeing to take part in the film.


Rightwing bullshit, gotta love it.

[I and I]

"Moore does not say that cuba is ranked under the United States"

Tyler mentioned arguing semantics in the first post of this thread, yet watch him argue semantics as I mention that THE LIST IS SHOWN IN THE DOCUMENTARY AND YOU CAN CLEARLY SEE CUBA BELOW UNITED STATES ON THE LIST"

More bullshit from turden

[Tyler Durden]

"Moore does not say that cuba is ranked under the United States"

Tyler mentioned arguing semantics in the first post of this thread, yet watch him argue semantics as I mention that THE LIST IS SHOWN IN THE DOCUMENTARY AND YOU CAN CLEARLY SEE CUBA BELOW UNITED STATES ON THE LIST"

More bullshit from turden

I have no clue what you want to argue about here :dunno: Cuba is listed below the US in ranking, and? You got something you want to argue with Moore about and you want to pretend I am him :dunno:

[I and I]

I have no clue what you want to argue about here :dunno: Cuba is listed below the US in ranking, and? You got something you want to argue with Moore about and you want to pretend I am him :dunno:

The link you posted said that Moore doesn't mention that cuba is behind the U.S. in those rankings, yet the movie shows the list in a close up clearly showing cuba behind the U.S. that part of your link is a lie.

[Tyler Durden]

The link you posted said that Moore doesn't mention that cuba is behind the U.S. in those rankings, yet the movie shows the list in a close up clearly showing cuba behind the U.S. that part of your link is a lie.
There are several lies and misinformation in that link.....
AND?

OK, so where is my bullshit......oh that's right, you made that up :rolleyes:

[I and I]

So you post something supposedly exposing the lies of Sicko, yet you agree that what you posted is bullshit.

:lol:

[Trplsec]

Funny thread...


I and I is chasing his tail, but he's not sure why..

[Tyler Durden]

Funny thread...


I and I is chasing his tail, but he's not sure why..

:lol:

[I and I]

Funny thread

Turdens post says that in SICKO Moore doesn't say that cuba ranks below the U.S. This is a lie that I already exposed, in the movie, the camera does a close up of the list clearly showing Cuba being behind the U.S. Turden comes with his bullshit post saying that moores documentary doesn't say that cuba ranks behind the U.S.

Turden also says in his post that Moore was welcomed with open arms to CUBA, when I have heard 3 interviews with moore and he clearly explains that the cuban govt at first didn't want him to do that piece in cuba for fear of starting a confrontation with the U.S. Turdens bullshit post about moore being welcomed with open arms to cuba is BULLSHIT.

I have exposed 2 parts of his post as bullshit, but let me guess, I am being "schooled" :lol:

[Tyler Durden]

Funny thread

Turdens post says that in SICKO Moore doesn't say that cuba ranks below the U.S. This is a lie that I already exposed, in the movie, the camera does a close up of the list clearly showing Cuba being behind the U.S. Turden comes with his bullshit post saying that moores documentary doesn't say that cuba ranks behind the U.S.

Turden also says in his post that Moore was welcomed with open arms to CUBA, when I have heard 3 interviews with moore and he clearly explains that the cuban govt at first didn't want him to do that piece in cuba for fear of starting a confrontation with the U.S. Turdens bullshit post about moore being welcomed with open arms to cuba is BULLSHIT.

I have exposed 2 parts of his post as bullshit, but let me guess, I am being "schooled" :lol:

Who hasn't seen that trailor for the movie :dunno:

You school yourself imbecile, how you confuse my OBVIOUS comments on which side of the issue I am on is beyond me :lol:

[Tyler Durden]

Funny thread

Turdens post says that in SICKO Moore doesn't say that cuba ranks below the U.S. This is a lie that I already exposed, in the movie, the camera does a close up of the list clearly showing Cuba being behind the U.S. Turden comes with his bullshit post saying that moores documentary doesn't say that cuba ranks behind the U.S.

Turden also says in his post that Moore was welcomed with open arms to CUBA, when I have heard 3 interviews with moore and he clearly explains that the cuban govt at first didn't want him to do that piece in cuba for fear of starting a confrontation with the U.S. Turdens bullshit post about moore being welcomed with open arms to cuba is BULLSHIT.

I have exposed 2 parts of his post as bullshit, but let me guess, I am being "schooled" :lol:


IDIOT
'Sicko' Film Gives Accused Little Say
By KEVIN FREKING and LINDA A. JOHNSON (Associated Press Writer)
From Associated Press
June 30, 2007 12:03 PM EDT

[Trplsec]

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-2/1144497/Tail.JPG

[Tyler Durden]

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-2/1144497/Tail.JPG

I think he finally got tired :lol:

[Nobleart]

Funny thread

Turdens post says that in SICKO Moore doesn't say that cuba ranks below the U.S. This is a lie that I already exposed, in the movie, the camera does a close up of the list clearly showing Cuba being behind the U.S. Turden comes with his bullshit post saying that moores documentary doesn't say that cuba ranks behind the U.S.

Turden also says in his post that Moore was welcomed with open arms to CUBA, when I have heard 3 interviews with moore and he clearly explains that the cuban govt at first didn't want him to do that piece in cuba for fear of starting a confrontation with the U.S. Turdens bullshit post about moore being welcomed with open arms to cuba is BULLSHIT.

I have exposed 2 parts of his post as bullshit, but let me guess, I am being "schooled" :lol:


HaHa! You don't read too well do you. Even when Durden agrees with you, you find some way to spin it into some sort of right-wing conspiracy. :lol:

[Tyler Durden]

yet watch him argue semantics as I mention that THE LIST IS SHOWN IN THE DOCUMENTARY AND YOU CAN CLEARLY SEE CUBA BELOW UNITED STATES ON THE LIST"

More bullshit from turden<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

:lol: Watch me....

[I and I]

So turden posts things that aren't true about the documentary SICKO and he admits that what he posted isn't true, but according to rightwing logic, the joke is on me. :notallthere:

[Tyler Durden]

So turden posts things that aren't true about the documentary SICKO and he admits that what he posted isn't true, but according to rightwing logic, the joke is on me. :notallthere:

That about sums it up :bears:Only it doesn't involve rightwing anything, just logic.

[I and I]

So the joke is on me when you post bullshit?

:lol:

[Tyler Durden]

The joke is on you when you say how I will argue semantics when I CLEARLY was critisizing the posted article and your prediction never came to fruition, the joke goes deeper when you come out and say US is ranked higher than your favorite communist country :cool:

[I and I]

How is it a joke on me???

When the U.S. the richest county in the world is only 2 countries ahead of Cuba?

[Anthony]

The joke is on you when you say how I will argue semantics when I CLEARLY was critisizing the posted article and your prediction never came to fruition, the joke goes deeper when you come out and say US is ranked higher than your favorite communist country :cool::eeeek: I cant even believe this thread. I and I should hide and never come back. This has to be the first time in Internet history someone was schooled while being agreed with.

[Anthony]

How is it a joke on me???

When the U.S. the richest county in the world is only 2 countries ahead of Cuba?dont change the subject scumbag.

[I and I]

Godfather beleives Hussein had ties to al-queda

[Tyler Durden]

How is it a joke on me???

When the U.S. the richest county in the world is only 2 countries ahead of Cuba?

Apparently you have forgot about Cuba, maybe dsimon can refresh your memory :laughing:

[Anthony]

Godfather beleives Hussein had ties to al-quedaYUP Sure do

[Tyler Durden]

:eeeek: I cant even believe this thread. I and I should hide and never come back. This has to be the first time in Internet history someone was schooled while being agreed with.

Hall of shame candidate? :lol:

[I and I]

dont change the subject scumbag.

The subject is you guys somehow saying the joke is on me when the U.S. is only 2 countries ahead of Cuba.

[Tyler Durden]

The subject is you guys somehow saying the joke is on me when the U.S. is only 2 countries ahead of Cuba.

.....and you argued before it was better. Have you ever been right about anything, even on accident? :lol:

[Anthony]

.....and you argued before it was better. Have you ever been right about anything, even on accident? :lol:you better stop being such an asshole

[I and I]

The Cuban health care system is better than the U.S.

[Arben]

This topic went all the way nowhere.

[Tha Pitbull]

The Cuban health care system is better than the U.S.How can they be better when they are clearly BEHIND???:doh:

[Nobleart]

:eeeek: I cant even believe this thread. I and I should hide and never come back. This has to be the first time in Internet history someone was schooled while being agreed with.


It's almost mind-boggling. This is like an episode of "Mythbusters" where you just know the urban legend is going to be "Busted" and last moment they discover it is indeed possible.

I and I is that urban legend. :clap::clap:

[Black Market Baby]

I and I is that urban legend. :clap::clap:

:lol: :lol:

[CleanYourClock]

:eeeek: I cant even believe this thread. I and I should hide and never come back. This has to be the first time in Internet history someone was schooled while being agreed with.

:lol: Fuckin IandI , this kid is truely an internet legend ....

[I and I]

TFK is so fuckin stupid he can't understand a joke about an olympic logo.

CYC- Belives that blackboxes can be smashed to pieces with a baseball bat.

Trplsec-Believes that RCTV was forced off air (NOT TRUE) and that the U.S. LIBERATED south korea by aiding and maintaining it's millitary dictatorship rule until the late 80's

Godfather-Believes that hussein had connections with al-queda. Also believes that there are no cameras on the pentagon property.

Turden-Believes that an anti-cuban organization started by and funded by the CIA is a trustworthy source on info about cuba.

GIANTS OF COMMON SENSE, I feel so "intimidated" by deep thinkers like this. :lol:

A health system based on profit first and helping people secondary VS a system based on helping the most amount of people.

These deep thinkers of fightbeat believe that a system based on profit is the most efficient, even though history shows otherwise.

[TFK]

Please Pay Attention to me!!!!!!!



TFK

[I and I]

TFK

How is that olympic logo joke coming along?

[Tyler Durden]

It's almost mind-boggling. This is like an episode of "Mythbusters" where you just know the urban legend is going to be "Busted" and last moment they discover it is indeed possible.

I and I is that urban legend. :clap::clap:

:lol:

[TFK]

How is that olympic logo joke coming along?

How is being a broke ass virgin coming along?

TFK

[I and I]

I like how TFK goes straight to the insults because his weak small mind can't understand a joke about an olympic logo.

Being one of the worst of the industrialized countries in healthcare.

Something apparently TFK, CYC, Trplsec, Godfather, and Turden are very proud of, they have been bragging about it alot lately.

[Tyler Durden]

"I like how" I and I doesn't get anything even when someone immitates him in a thread, then tries to argue with himself :lol:

[I and I]

I like how Turden assumes that I "don't get it" when i am somehow supposed to believe he was really defending Michael Moore.:rolleyes:

[Tyler Durden]

I like how Turden assumes that I "don't get it" when i am somehow supposed to believe he was really defending Michael Moore.:rolleyes:

Yeah, it's pretty hard to believe when I have been critical about the spending on Health Care in this country from Jumpstreet. It's also pretty hard to beleive when you basicly can't read and having your mind already made up :lol:

[Nobleart]

I like how TFK goes straight to the insults because his weak small mind can't understand a joke about an olympic logo.

Being one of the worst of the industrialized countries in healthcare.

Something apparently TFK, CYC, Trplsec, Godfather, and Turden are very proud of, they have been bragging about it alot lately.


:lol:


http://www.sptimes.com/News/031400/photos/flo-dig.jpg

[TFK]

I like how TFK goes straight to the insults because his weak small mind can't understand a joke about an olympic logo.

Being one of the worst of the industrialized countries in healthcare.

Something apparently TFK, CYC, Trplsec, Godfather, and Turden are very proud of, they have been bragging about it alot lately.

I like how InI is too stupid to see that a joke about someone having a seizure is insulting to epileptics. I also like how he thinks spouting off his own stupidity is in his mind, somehow getting the better of me.

Dumber by the day, I tell ya.

And I've been bragging about healthcare? WTF are you talking about? You'd think you would've learned your lesson about making shit up by now.

TFK

[I and I]

I like how InI is too stupid to see that a joke about someone having a seizure is insulting to epileptics. I also like how he thinks spouting off his own stupidity is in his mind, somehow getting the better of me.

Dumber by the day, I tell ya.

And I've been bragging about healthcare? WTF are you talking about? You'd think you would've learned your lesson about making shit up by now.

TFK

A joke about someone having a siezure, what (someone) are you talking about?

[Trplsec]

The Cuban health care system is better than the U.S.


Please explain HOW you feel it is better....

[I and I]

A system based on profit first policy vs a system based on getting the most care to the most amount of people. Are you really that stupid to now know which system is better?

[Trplsec]

A system based on profit first policy vs a system based on getting the most care to the most amount of people. Are you really that stupid to now know which system is better?


I'm smart enough to know that a "free" pile of crap is still a pile of crap..


I wonder if you needed major surgery if you would prefer to do it in Dallas or Aguada de Pasajeros..

:lol:

Don't answer....

[I and I]

So the american students who go to cuba for medical schooling are getting crap education? Oh wait, what about Cuba sending more medical aid to countries than any other country. Oh wait, too many facts for rightwingers makes their freedom fries taste funny.


"more money equals better system" Rightwing defense gotta love it.

[Trplsec]

So the american students who go to cuba for medical schooling are getting crap education? Oh wait, what about Cuba sending more medical aid to countries than any other country. Oh wait, too many facts for rightwingers makes their freedom fries taste funny.


"more money equals better system" Rightwing defense gotta love it.


None of that has to do with 'where you would get better medical care...'

Answer the question, where would you rather have that major surgery?

Aguada de Pasajeros or Dallas???

Simple question...

[I and I]

Oh so you are FOR answering questions now?

I thought you were all about avoiding questions?


How is where I would rather get surgery relevant to whether a system of health care for citizens of a country is better????

[Trplsec]

Oh so you are FOR answering questions now?

I thought you were all about avoiding questions?


How is where I would rather get surgery relevant to whether a system of health care for citizens of a country is better????


It directly reflects the quality of care.

As I said, just because a pile of crap is free doesn't mean it isn't still crap..

Now where would you prefer to have the surgery?

Simple question...

[I and I]

You never answer my questions directly, like the one about WMD'S

I would rather have major surgery in CHINA than afghanistan.

[Trplsec]

You never answer my questions directly, like the one about WMD'S

I would rather have major surgery in CHINA than afghanistan.


You just answered my question...

[I and I]

http://www.caymannetnews.com/2005/03/803/health.shtml

I would rather get major surgery in Cuba than in the U.S.

[Nobleart]

http://www.caymannetnews.com/2005/03/803/health.shtml

I would rather get major surgery in Cuba than in the U.S.


I really don't know what you're complaining about I and I. You're a twentysomething student who makes very little money and I'm guessing is no longer a dependent of his parents.

I'm not knocking you, but if you knew any better, you could get free health care in the U.S. to if you wanted.

It's the middle class that is fucked by the health care system in the U.S..

[Trplsec]

http://www.caymannetnews.com/2005/03/803/health.shtml

I would rather get major surgery in Cuba than in the U.S.


So Castro gets deathly ill and flies in medical equipment and a surgeon from Spain, but you would rather go to Cuba..

The leader of the country didn't trust solely his own physicians and equipment, but you would..


:lol: :laughing: :laughing:

[I and I]

Any proof that Castro was operated on by a spanish surgeon????


I like how people from all over the world go to cuba to get important medical treatments and surgerys but Trplsec thinks that these people die of gangreen or something. :lol:

What kind of surgery does trplsec think is impossible for cuban doctors to do??? List some surgeries please.

[Anthony]

Any proof that Castro was operated on by a spanish surgeon????


I like how people from all over the world go to cuba to get important medical treatments and surgerys but Trplsec thinks that these people die of gangreen or something. :lol:

What kind of surgery does trplsec think is impossible for cuban doctors to do??? List some surgeries please.How many people come from all over the world to get treatment in America?

[I and I]

Where do they come from??? is the important question.

[Anthony]

Where do they come from??? is the important question.all over the world.

[Anthony]

Sicko,’ Castro and the ‘120 Years Club’ </NYT_HEADLINE>
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/05/27/weekinreview/27depalma.600.jpg By ANTHONY DePALMA

</NYT_BYLINE>Published: May 27, 2007
<NYT_TEXT>CUBA works hard to jam American TV signals and keep out decadent Hollywood films. But it’s a good bet that Fidel Castro (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/c/fidel_castro/index.html?inline=nyt-per)’s government will turn a blind eye to bootleg copies of “Sicko,” Michael Moore (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/m/michael_moore/index.html?inline=nyt-per)’s newest movie, if they show up on the streets of Havana.
Skip to next paragraph (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/27/weekinreview/27depalma.html?ex=1183694400&en=4caa9a5e9e510993&ei=5070#secondParagraph) “Sicko,” the talk of the Cannes Film Festival (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/c/cannes_international_film_festival/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier) last week, savages the American health care system — and along the way extols Cuba’s system as the neatest thing since the white linen guayabera.




Mr. Moore transports a handful of sick Americans to Cuba for treatment in the course of the film, which is scheduled to open in the United States next month, and he is apparently dumbfounded that they could get there what they couldn’t get here.
“There’s a reason Cubans live on average longer than we do,” he told Time magazine. “I’m not trumpeting Castro or his regime. I just want to say to fellow Americans, ‘C’mon, we’re the United States. If they can do this, we can do it.’ ”
But hold on. Do they do it? Live longer than, or even as long as, we do? How could a poor developing country — where annual health care spending averages just $230 a person compared with $6,096 in the United States — come anywhere near matching the richest country in the world?
Statistics from the World Health Organization (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/w/world_health_organization/index.html?inline=nyt-org), the C.I.A. (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/c/central_intelligence_agency/index.html?inline=nyt-org) and other sources all show that the people of Cuba and the United States have about the same life expectancy — 77 years, give or take a few months — while infant mortality in Cuba is significantly lower than in the United States.
Of course, many people regard any figures about Cuba as at least partly fiction. But even if the longevity statistics are correct, they are open to interpretation. Carmelo Mesa-Lago, a professor emeritus of economics at the University of Pittsburgh (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/u/university_of_pittsburgh/index.html?inline=nyt-org), said statistics also show that Cuba has a high rate of abortion (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/a/abortion/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier), which can lower infant mortality rates and improve life expectancy figures. The constant flow of refugees also may affect longevity figures, since those births are recorded but the deaths are not.
Despite such skepticism, many medical experts say they do believe that average Cubans can live as long as Americans, and the reason may lie in a combination of what Cuba does well and the United States does poorly, if at all.
Dr. Robert N. Butler, president of the International Longevity Center in New York and a Pulitzer Prize (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/p/pulitzer_prizes/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier)-winning author on aging, has traveled to Cuba to see firsthand how doctors are trained. He said a principal reason that some health standards in Cuba approach the high American level is that the Cuban system emphasizes early intervention. Clinic visits are free, and the focus is on preventing disease rather than treating it.
Dr. Butler said some of Cuba’s shortcomings may actually improve its health profile. “Because they don’t have up-to-date cars, they tend to have to exercise more by walking,” he said. “And they may not have a surfeit of food, which keeps them from problems like obesity (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/health/diseasesconditionsandhealthtopics/obesity/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier), but they’re not starving, either.”
Cuban markets are not always well stocked, but city streets are dotted with hot dog and ice cream vendors. Bellies are full, but such food can cause problems in the future, as it has in the United States.
Dr. Butler has just completed a study that shows it is possible that because of the epidemic of obesity in children, “this may be the first generation of Americans to live less long than their parents.”
There could be one great leveler for Cubans and Americans. While all Cubans have at least minimal free access to doctors, more than 45 million Americans lack basic health insurance. Many are reluctant to seek early treatment they cannot afford, Dr. Butler said. Instead, they wait to be admitted to an emergency room.
“I know Americans tend to be skeptical,” he said, “but health and education are two achievements of the Cuban revolution, and they deserve some credit despite the government’s poor record on human rights.”
Universal health care has long given the Cuban regime bragging rights, though there is growing concern about the future. In the decades that Cuba drew financial and military support from the Soviet Union, Mr. Castro poured resources into medical education, creating the largest medical school in Latin America and turning out thousands of doctors to practice around the world.
But that changed after the collapse of the Soviets, according to Cuban defectors like Dr. Leonel Cordova. By the time Dr. Cordova started practicing in 1992, equipment and drugs were already becoming scarce. He said he was assigned to a four-block neighborhood in Havana Province where he was supposed to care for about 600 people.
“But even if I diagnosed something simple like bronchitis (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/health/diseasesconditionsandhealthtopics/bronchitis/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier),” he said, “I couldn’t write a prescription for antibiotics (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/health/diseasesconditionsandhealthtopics/antibiotics/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier), because there were none.”
He defected in 2000 while on a medical mission in Zimbabwe and made his way to the United States. He is now an urgent-care physician at Baptist Hospital in Miami.
Having practiced medicine in both Cuba and the United States, Dr. Cordova has an unusual perspective for comparison.
“Actually there are three systems,” Dr. Cordova said, because Cuba has two: one is for party officials and foreigners like those Mr. Moore brought to Havana. “It is as good as this one here, with all the resources, the best doctors, the best medicines, and nobody pays a cent,” he said.
But for the 11 million ordinary Cubans, hospitals are often ill equipped and patients “have to bring their own food, soap, sheets — they have to bring everything.” And up to 20,000 Cuban doctors may be working in Venezuela, creating a shortage in Cuba.
Still Cuban officials assert that free health care, a variety of sports programs, a healthy, if limited, diet (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/health/diseasesconditionsandhealthtopics/diet/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier) and cultural activities have kept enough Cubans healthy enough well into old age to warrant starting the 120 Years Club, which enrolls people who are 80 and older and strives to help them reach an even riper old age.
Until he had to have emergency surgery last year, Fidel Castro — who turned 80 this year — was considered a model of vibrant long life in Cuba. But it was only last week that he acknowledged in an open letter that his initial surgery by Cuban doctors had been botched. He did not confirm, however, that a specialist had been flown in from Spain last December to help set things right.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/27/weekinreview/27depalma.html?ex=1183694400&en=4caa9a5e9e510993&ei=5070
<NYT_UPDATE_BOTTOM></NYT_UPDATE_BOTTOM></NYT_TEXT>

[Anthony]

Any proof that Castro was operated on by a spanish surgeon????


http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8MM513O0&show_article=1

[Tyler Durden]

http://www.caymannetnews.com/2005/03/803/health.shtml

I would rather get major surgery in Cuba than in the U.S.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnctcRm5Ydo

:lol: how about now?

[Anthony]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnctcRm5Ydo

:lol: how about now?You just cant help being an asshole can you?

[Tyler Durden]

You just cant help being an asshole can you?

It's in my blood....

[I and I]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnctcRm5Ydo

:lol: how about now?

So all the heath organization studies about Cubas doctors are wrong, and the U.S. vision of Cuba is the correct one. :lol:

I am still waiting on someone to tell me exactly what major surgery the cuban doctors wouldn't be able to do. Since according to you guys they can't do some surgeries.

Man up and name a major surgery you think cuban doctors can't do in cuba.

[Anthony]

So all the heath organization studies about Cubas doctors are wrong, and the U.S. vision of Cuba is the correct one. :lol:

I am still waiting on someone to tell me exactly what major surgery the cuban doctors wouldn't be able to do. Since according to you guys they can't do some surgeries.

Man up and name a major surgery you think cuban doctors can't do in cuba. Whatever surgery Castro needed, the cubans fucked it up and couldnt do it. SO go ask Castro.

[Trplsec]

Whatever surgery Castro needed, the cubans fucked it up and couldnt do it. SO go ask Castro.


Exactly.. Why would Castro, in a country I and I believes is the most medically sophisticated in the world, call in a surgeon from another country.

And even more importantly, why would that surgeon bring medical equipment not available in Cuba.. How is that possible?

Face it, this is just another thread wherein the little guy got his ass handed to him.. Standard.

[Tyler Durden]

So all the heath organization studies about Cubas doctors are wrong, and the U.S. vision of Cuba is the correct one. :lol:

I am still waiting on someone to tell me exactly what major surgery the cuban doctors wouldn't be able to do. Since according to you guys they can't do some surgeries.

Man up and name a major surgery you think cuban doctors can't do in cuba.

Man up and show a surgery US can't do, then show a video of a guy sewed up with YARN :lol:

[I and I]

I saw it in a video it has to be true. :lol:


I never said the U.S CAN'T do any surgery, you guys think it's odd that someone would have a surgery in Cuba, so I asked what surgery you think the cubans wouldn't be able to do properly. Still no answer.

[Tyler Durden]

I saw it in a video it has to be true. :lol:


I never said the U.S CAN'T do any surgery, you guys think it's odd that someone would have a surgery in Cuba, so I asked what surgery you think the cubans wouldn't be able to do properly. Still no answer.

It has to be false because Moorer didn't film it :lol:

Left-winger says there was no answer, gotta love it.

[I and I]

It has to be false because Moorer didn't film it :lol:

Left-winger says there was no answer, gotta love it.

All those health organizations praise for their health care system and europeans going to cuba for surgeries, Cuba being the largest distributor of doctors to other 3rd world countries, cuba having the best medical schools in latin america, training doctors from all around the world. That can only mean one thing, their health care system is terrible. :lol:

[Tyler Durden]

When presented with a video as evidence, left-wingers say it was from a US hospital because we all know how bad hospitals are in the US, gotta love it.

[Trplsec]

All those health organizations praise for their health care system and europeans going to cuba for surgeries, Cuba being the largest distributor of doctors to other 3rd world countries, cuba having the best medical schools in latin america, training doctors from all around the world. That can only mean one thing, their health care system is terrible. :lol:


That's like being the hottest prostitute in Butte, Montana...

All I know is that I've had more conversations with average Cubans than Michael Moore could ever dream of, and none would prefer medical care in Cuba over the US..

But what do people who actually lived in Cuba know?

[Tyler Durden]

That's like being the hottest prostitute in Butte, Montana...

All I know is that I've had more conversations with average Cubans than Michael Moore could ever dream of, and none would prefer medical care in Cuba over the US..

But what do people who actually lived in Cuba know?

They prefer yarn :lol:

[Trplsec]

They prefer yarn :lol:



Dwight Schrute: Fact, Cubans prefer yarn 2 to 1.

[I and I]

The rightwing boys believe that all the reports of Cubas great health care system are by actors, and made up accounts, and evildoer propaganda.

:lol:

[Tyler Durden]

I like how Left-wingers think the clip from the Cuban hospital is from actors and a stage, gotta love it.

[Trplsec]

The rightwing boys believe that all the reports of Cubas great health care system are by actors, and made up accounts, and evildoer propaganda.

:lol:


Nope, the rightwing boys are smart enough to realize that the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

But speaking for myself, there is no way in the world that I would bypass medical care in this country to be treated in Cuba.. And the real truth be known, neither would you..

[I and I]

It's free, and there isn't any surgery they can't do, why not.



Is there anything in SICKO that you disagree with?

[Trplsec]

It's free, and there isn't any surgery they can't do, why not.



Is there anything in SICKO that you disagree with?


Really??? What if you needed the same medical equipment that Castro needed, which wasn't available in Cuba?

Do you think Fidel would fly it in for YOU like he did for himself???

What a joke you are....

[Tyler Durden]

It's free, and there isn't any surgery they can't do, why not.



Is there anything in SICKO that you disagree with?

So why do you live in the US? I know you can't afford medical expenses, and I know you don't have insurance, so why would you live here again? :popcorn:

[I and I]

Really??? What if you needed the same medical equipment that Castro needed, which wasn't available in Cuba?

Do you think Fidel would fly it in for YOU like he did for himself???

What a joke you are....

Any evidence that they didn't have the equipment for castro's surgery???

[Trplsec]

So why do you live in the US? I know you can't afford medical expenses, and I know you don't have insurance, so why would you live here again? :popcorn:


Because if he lived in Cuba he would be exactly the type of deadbeat that Castro would let jump on a floating mattress heading towards Miami...

That's what kills me about I and I.... He'll believe every bad thing he hears about the US, but the thousands upon thousand of Cuban now living in South Florida that tell tales of horror at the hands of Castro MUST be lying..

He just doesn't see the hypocrisy..

[I and I]

Because if he lived in Cuba he would be exactly the type of deadbeat that Castro would let jump on a floating mattress heading towards Miami...

That's what kills me about I and I.... He'll believe every bad thing he hears about the US, but the thousands upon thousand of Cuban now living in South Florida that tell tales of horror at the hands of Castro MUST be lying..



He just doesn't see the hypocrisy..

You mean the terrorist organizations too? :lol:

Anything in SICKO you disagree with?

[Trplsec]

Any evidence that they didn't have the equipment for castro's surgery???


Nope.. I never said they didn't have equipment for his surgery...

But I could post article after article about the Spanish surgeon, medicine and advanced equipment being flown in after Castro's surgery...

[Tyler Durden]

Because if he lived in Cuba he would be exactly the type of deadbeat that Castro would let jump on a floating mattress heading towards Miami...

That's what kills me about I and I.... He'll believe every bad thing he hears about the US, but the thousands upon thousand of Cuban now living in South Florida that tell tales of horror at the hands of Castro MUST be lying..

He just doesn't see the hypocrisy..

If the health care system in Cuba is excellent......why would you have Cubans leaving family to come here for more expensive care? What other reasons would they risk their lives and leave their families to come here :popcorn:I bet the left-winger communist won't answer this, gotta love it.

[Trplsec]

If the health care system in Cuba is excellent......why would you have Cubans leaving family to come here for more expensive care? What other reasons would they risk their lives and leave their families to come here :popcorn:


Cuba has a great health care system compared to other Latin American Countries..

But whipping Haiti's ass in health care is like beating a quadrapelegic in a foot race..

[I and I]

Really??? What if you needed the same medical equipment that Castro needed, which wasn't available in Cuba?

Do you think Fidel would fly it in for YOU like he did for himself???

What a joke you are....

The first sentence is you saying that the equipment needed for castros surgery wasn't available. Any evidence of this?

[I and I]

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=3128

Liberal media. :rolleyes: :lol:

[Tyler Durden]

For Rock on....

Can we move this thread to the hall of shame?

:popcorn:

:lol: