Which was a better win: Cotto or Mayweather?

[Erratic]

Inspired from Sly's Hops/Calzaghe thread.

Miguel Cotto winning 7 of 12 rounds against the 36 year old, full-time fighter, Shane Mosley at welterweight?

Floyd Mayweather winning 8 of 12 rounds against the 34 year old, part-time fighter, Oscar De La Hoya at jr. middleweight?

Which was a better win?

[Donnybrook]

Oh Lord....

[Erratic]

Oh Lord....

So you're on the fence?

[Donnybrook]

So you're on the fence?

:lol: I'm just anticipating YET ANOTHER 26-page thread with the constant flaming battle between Cotto/Mayweather fans/dectractors plus a sprinkling of trolls and instigators.

[REEDsART]

BOTH Guys LEFT Something in the Ring that Night, Meaning NEITHER Cotto NOR Floyd Went for BROKE...

But w/Out Question, Cotto-Shane is the More RE-watchable Fight...REED has Honestly TRIED to RE-watch Floyd-Dela Several Times & CANNOT Make it Past the 5th or 6th Round:lol: ...

This Question Could B Answered in Various ways...Floyd-Dela was More "Important", Cause it Took Floyd to a NEW Level in Terms of FAME, NOTORIETY & MONEY...But the Fight Itself STUNK...

Cotto-Shane was the "Better" Win, Cause REED Thinks Shane had MORE of a Legitimate Chance of WINNING & Cotto was SLIGHTLY More IMPRESSIVE in that Fight, than Floyd was vs. DeLa...



REED:cool:

[Pascals Wager]

Cotto over Mosley @ 147-No Doubt

[Erratic]

:lol: I'm just anticipating YET ANOTHER 26-page thread with the constant flaming battle between Cotto/Mayweather fans/dectractors plus a sprinkling of trolls and instigators.

Then I'd consider the thread a success.

[Hex-One]

Cotto over Mosley @ 147-No Doubt
Agreed!

[Donnybrook]

Then I'd consider the thread a success.

Go away. :lol:

Success is an actual objective, civil discussion acknowledging great points by others and raising one's own like an adult.

It has started well thus far....let's see! :popcorn:

[CleanYourClock]

This is a tough thread to make because Floyd ran ,clinched , and punched gloves to a cheap Split Decision victory , with DLH standing there clearly not a beaten fighter at the end of the bout.
As far as Cotto , that fight was so close , how could one honestly say "he really beat Mosely" in a sense that he was the better, tougher fighter at the end ...

I will have to say the Cotto/Mosely fight ONLY because both guys came to fight and they actually did fight ...

[Jake]

Wow, my vote is the 1st for Floyd over Oscar?

[*Z*]

Cotto beating Shane was more impressive. Shane is a better fighter than Oscar, especially now.

[Mitchell Kane]

I voted for Cotto.

Mosley is a more serious fighter at this point in his career than DLH, and while both PBF and DLH displayed good skill level and defense (DLH probably exceeded expectations in this regard, along with his competitiveness), I think most everyone expected DLH to (predictably) fade over the second half of the fight (which hey did)...no such guarantees with Mosley, and while DLH tested Mayweather's skill, he didn't test him physically (and mentally) the way Mosley did with Cotto.

[CleanYourClock]

Wow, my vote is the 1st for Floyd over Oscar?

You should be ashamed to vote for "that fight" in any positive way.

[Jake]

So here's my argument:

Both fighters were expected to win. Both fighters won. Floyd won as expected (regardless of the judge's best efforts to steal it from him), Cotto not so much, but was more resourceful in obtaining his win. So that part is almost a wash.

Both Shane and Oscar are closer to retirement than their primes. So that's a wash.

Here's the tiebreaker:

Floyd was fighting in his 5th weight class, basically his walk-around weight, against a naturally (much) bigger fighter, though one on the downside of his career.

Cotto is in the heart of his prime, and struggled with a cagey veteran, though one in the twilight of his career.

Cotto's win was FAR more asthetically pleasing, whereas watching Floyd-GLH once was once too many. But that's not what the question is asking.

[CleanYourClock]

So here's my argument:

Both fighters were expected to win. Both fighters won. Floyd won as expected (regardless of the judge's best efforts to steal it from him), Cotto not so much, but was more resourceful in obtaining his win. So that part is almost a wash.

Both Shane and Oscar are closer to retirement than their primes. So that's a wash.

Here's the tiebreaker:

Floyd was fighting in his 5th weight class, basically his walk-around weight, against a naturally (much) bigger fighter, though one on the downside of his career.

Cotto is in the heart of his prime, and struggled with a cagey veteran, though one in the twilight of his career.

Cotto's win was FAR more asthetically pleasing, whereas watching Floyd-GLH once was once too many. But that's not what the question is asking.

True Jake but , you must give an "E" for effort , something that was not going on in the DLH/PBF fight - and mostly because of PBF ..
Cotto and Mosely actually fought ... DLH and PBF just didn't come close in terms of effort , heart , and balls ... Everytime DLH attempted some action , Mayweather put a quick stop to it instead of attempting to punch the shit out of DLH , he was content with a clinch or an arm grab.
If he is so good , fuck , fire off some combo's and fuck DLH up instead of hugging him.
The same can not be said for Cotto/Mosely ... They both did their jobs and did them without finding other ways of avoiding a real fight.

[Jake]

I said Cotto was more resourceful in his win. There's his E for effort.

[Tam Tam]

I liked Cotto winning 8 rounds against Mosley, over Mayweather not losing 8 vs. De La Hoya.

[joony]

cotto won his fight vs. mosley because he was younger. that was proven when mosley's late surge almost earned him a draw.

floyd fought a much bigger guy in oscar and despite what some folks say, i thought he outboxed him clearly with superior skills and left very little doubt as to who the better boxer is.

oh yea, it was also his fight 5th division title.

[Mitchell Kane]

cotto won his fight vs. mosley because he was younger. that was proven when mosley's late surge almost earned him a draw.

floyd fought a much bigger guy in oscar and despite what some folks say, i thought he outboxed him clearly with superior skills and left very little doubt as to who the better boxer is.

oh yea, it was also his fight 5th division title.

Do you think that if DLH could still make 147 he wouldn't be better than he is at 154?

DLH didn't improve when he moved up in weight, Mosley did improve by going back down in weight.

I think that negates part of the argument (at least to me) about how impressive it was for Mayweather to move up.

[CleanYourClock]

cotto won his fight vs. mosley because he was younger. that was proven when mosley's late surge almost earned him a draw.

floyd fought a much bigger guy in oscar and despite what some folks say, i thought he outboxed him clearly with superior skills and left very little doubt as to who the better boxer is.

oh yea, it was also his fight 5th division title.

Ahhh , in case you forgot because this seems to be the theme of the day , IT WAS ALSO OSCAR'S 5TH DIVISION AS WELL ... :doh:
That seems to be overlooked so easy as if Oscar started at 154 .. :nono:

[Jake]

All of the arguments for Cotto make sense, and I don't dispute any of them. I'm just shocked that my vote stood in the way of what would otherwise be a shutout for Cotto.

[CleanYourClock]

I said Cotto was more resourceful in his win. There's his E for effort.

Considering each fight , you should give a bigger "E" ... :lol: :lol:

[Jake]

Ahhh , in case you forgot because this seems to be the theme of the day , IT WAS ALSO OSCAR'S 5TH DIVISION AS WELL ... :doh:
That seems to be overlooked so easy as if Oscar started at 154 .. :nono:
yeah but oscar's been 154 and higher for most of the decade - from 2001 on. There's a big difference between growing into your 5th division for the past six years, and moving up for a one-and-done.

[Jake]

Considering each fight , you should give a bigger "E" ... :lol: :lol:
Final grade for Effort:
Cotto - E
Floyd - M-

Happy now?

[CleanYourClock]

yeah but oscar's been 154 and higher for most of the decade - from 2001 on. There's a big difference between growing into your 5th division for the past six years, and moving up for a one-and-done.

He's older then PBF ...

So you are saying that DLH is better at 154 now then when he first moved to 154 simply because he has been there longer ??
C'mon Jake , we both know he was better when he first moved to 154.
Same applys to Mayweather ...

Also , lets not forget , when it comes to weighing in for a pro fight , DLH actually weighed in less then PBF did in their respective start of their careers ...

[Jake]

He's older then PBF ...

So you are saying that DLH is better at 154 now then when he first moved to 154 simply because he has been there longer ??
C'mon Jake , we both know he was better when he first moved to 154.
Same applys to Mayweather ...

Also , lets not forget , when it comes to weighing in for a pro fight , DLH actually weighed in less then PBF did in their respective start of their careers ...
I might as well start replying to you in another language, because what I type and how you interpret such posts never seem to be one and the same.

[V10]

Both won clearly despite what some idiots claim.

I would go with Floyd.

Why?

- 1st fight in his 5th Weight Division. Clearly his worst weight class ever.
- When they got to the ring, Oscar probably carried a 15-20 lbs advantage.
- Beat a 34 year old DLH.
- Finished the fight stronger.
- Won despite adversity (Gloves types, ring size, crowd)

Cotto:

- Was in his absolute prime at his best weight.
- Was at no weight disadvantage at all.
- Beat a 36 year old Mosley.
- Did not finish strong.
- Had the crowd for him.

[whiskey]

I went with Floyd over Oscar but just like the Calazghe-Kessler/Hopkins-Tarver thread it's very close and i can see why people would pick one over the other.

Even though Oscar is clearly past his best and a part time fighter, it was still a solid win for Mayweather, especially considering it was @ 154.

I guess to me that's the tie-breaker. If Mosley was Cotto's first opponent at welter it would be different.

[Hex-One]

I cant wait until PBF gets KTFO. Anyway let me put my hate aside for a minute here. Mosley had more left in my opinion. First off he came off a pretty good streak beating Vargas and the other PR dude which was in his prime.

[V10]

I cant wait until PBF gets KTFO.
Poor Hex. You're getting old waiting 4 that.

It'll happen sooner or later, yeah. He's getting old. Guess what? He'll still be better than Tito and Cotto. :lol:

[Hex-One]

Poor Hex. You're getting old waiting 4 that.

It'll happen sooner or later, yeah. He's getting old. Guess what? He'll still be better than Tito and Cotto. :lol: :nono: How can this be when he dcking the best opposition out there? Plus he should have 2 loses on his record. Castillo and Delahoya!:lol:

[Mitchell Kane]

Both won clearly despite what some idiots claim.

I would go with Floyd.

Why?

- 1st fight in his 5th Weight Division. Clearly his worst weight class ever.
- When they got to the ring, Oscar probably carried a 15-20 lbs advantage.
- Beat a 34 year old DLH.
- Finished the fight stronger.
- Won despite adversity (Gloves types, ring size, crowd)

Cotto:

- Was in his absolute prime at his best weight.
- Was at no weight disadvantage at all.
- Beat a 36 year old Mosley.
- Did not finish strong.
- Had the crowd for him.

Here's what I think you leave out, despite noting their ages...before the Mayweather fight, DLH had only fought once since 2004. That's the better part of three years where he's been away from the ring.

Mosley had fought six times between Hopkins-DLH and Mayweather-DLH. He was more active and more serious about his career...and I think that means a lot.

How they finished seems irrelevent to me, since Mayweather didn't take real control until after DLH noticeably faded...Mayweather finished stronger because DLH finished weaker (than Mosley did).

Despite the finish, I still think Mayweather-DLH was closer...I had it 7-5 for PBF.

Also, this notion that the weights were a huge advantage to DLH seems a bit off to me, because DLH's never been a fighter who uses his weight. He relies on speed, and was at his best when he weighed less.

It's similar for John Ruiz when he fought Roy Jones. Independently, Ruiz wasn't a better fighter as a heavyweight than he was as cruiserweight. The added weight didn't help areas like timing, coordination or stamina (the same could be said of James Toney or Chris Byrd, fighters who could compete at a higher level because they had the speed and skill levels to do it). They had more weight behind their punches, but it was actually harder for them to land them...(though for the most part the targets became easier because they were usually heavier, slower, less athletic, lesser skilled, etc.).

Once Ruiz could no longer use his size against Jones (in clinches and by holding the way he was able to against other heavyweights), his huge weight advantage actually became detrimental to him because it widened the already noticeable gap in speed and quickness.

It's similar with DLH. He relies on his height and reach, but those don't change with weight...and the weight he carried in the ring didn't help him land any punches against Mayweather, if anything it hurt his ability to land...and that's the biggest challenge any fighter has against Mayweather (and it was the same with Roy Jones).

[slystaff]

Inspired from Sly's Hops/Calzaghe thread.

Miguel Cotto winning 7 of 12 rounds against the 36 year old, full-time fighter, Shane Mosley at welterweight?

Floyd Mayweather winning 8 of 12 rounds against the 34 year old, part-time fighter, Oscar De La Hoya at jr. middleweight?

Which was a better win?Floyd. :cool:

[slystaff]

So here's my argument:

Both fighters were expected to win. Both fighters won. Floyd won as expected (regardless of the judge's best efforts to steal it from him), Cotto not so much, but was more resourceful in obtaining his win. So that part is almost a wash.

Both Shane and Oscar are closer to retirement than their primes. So that's a wash.

Here's the tiebreaker:

Floyd was fighting in his 5th weight class, basically his walk-around weight, against a naturally (much) bigger fighter, though one on the downside of his career.

Cotto is in the heart of his prime, and struggled with a cagey veteran, though one in the twilight of his career.

Cotto's win was FAR more asthetically pleasing, whereas watching Floyd-GLH once was once too many. But that's not what the question is asking.Smart man!

[joony]

who gives a shit about this poll.

mayweather's career shits on cotto's anyhow. cotto hasn't even surpassed edwin rosario in terms of career accomplishments.

[Beyond the Grave]

Mayweather winning 8 out 4 rds??!! WOOOOW it was alot closer than that

[Neil]

cottos beating mosley was clearly more impressive. though he's clearly been on the decline for years he still is/was and always has been better than delahoya.

mosley beat collazo proving he should be consider a top 5 welterweight. delahoya has no wins since vargas to warrant ranking him in the top 10 at 154.

[ArturoGatti]

It's "Jean" Williams now. :nono:

[slystaff]

who gives a shit about this poll.

mayweather's career shits on cotto's anyhow. cotto hasn't even surpassed edwin rosario in terms of career accomplishments.FACT not fiction! :cool:

[adamiw]

i voted Floyd.....I don't think there is much between DLH and Mosley, but Floyd was giving away so much size.

[Father of Muzse]

cottos beating mosley was clearly more impressive. though he's clearly been on the decline for years he still is/was and always has been better than delahoya.

mosley beat collazo proving he should be consider a top 5 welterweight. delahoya has no wins since vargas to warrant ranking him in the top 10 at 154.

Thank you.

This coming from a Floyd fan speaks volumes.

[slystaff]

cottos beating mosley was clearly more impressive. though he's clearly been on the decline for years he still is/was and always has been better than delahoya.

mosley beat collazo proving he should be consider a top 5 welterweight. delahoya has no wins since vargas to warrant ranking him in the top 10 at 154.Matter of opinion.

I think De La Hoya's the better fighter, regardless of Shane beating him twice (I thought Oscar won the second fight and the first fight was much closer than people tend to credit).

But even IF Shane won twice...many people think Norton beat Ali three times but no one would be foolish enough to say that Norton is a better fighter than Ali.

Is Mayorga a better fighter than Vernon Forrest?

Is Vernon Forrest a better fighter than Shane Mosley?

Is Jermaine Taylor is better fighter than Bernard Hopkins?

Is Michael Spinks a better Heavyweight than Larry Holmes?


Oscar's beaten guys like Quartey, Whitaker, Chavez, arguably Trinidad. Won titles from 130 to 160, hits harder than Shane, chin as good if not better, better boxer and been in better matchups.

Oscar is a better and greater fighter than Shane. PERIOD!

[Der Tiger]

Going into the fight, at least we knew how much mosley had left, De la hadnt beaten anyone beside mayorga in years...I think if de la fought more regularly, we would see that he's nowhere near elite at 147-160

[Father of Muzse]

Matter of opinion.

I think De La Hoya's the better fighter, regardless of Shane beating him twice (I thought Oscar won the second fight and the first fight was much closer than people tend to credit).

But even IF Shane won twice...many people think Norton beat Ali three times but no one would be foolish enough to say that Norton is a better fighter than Ali.

Is Mayorga a better fighter than Vernon Forrest?

Is Vernon Forrest a better fighter than Shane Mosley?

Is Jermaine Taylor is better fighter than Bernard Hopkins?

Is Michael Spinks a better Heavyweight than Larry Holmes?


Oscar's beaten guys like Quartey, Whitaker, Chavez, arguably Trinidad. Won titles from 130 to 160, hits harder than Shane, chin as good if not better, better boxer and been in better matchups.

Oscar is a better and greater fighter than Shane. PERIOD!

You also neglected to say that Oscar arguably beat Quartey and Whitaker.

[slystaff]

You also neglected to say that Oscar arguably beat Quartey and Whitaker.:lol: I take it you can't refute my post.

Agreed, however that the Quartey and Whitaker fights could have been scored against Oscar.

But my point is that Shane never fought good Welterweights like those except Oscar and been competitive with them (he was blown away by Forrest in their first encounter)....and like I said before I thought Oscar won the rematch and only lost the first fight because he fought the wrong fight.

Bottomline...I can't see a case for Mosley being called a better fighter than Oscar De La Hoya even IF you hate De La Hoya.

[Father of Muzse]

:lol: I take it you can't refute my post.

Agreed, however that the Quartey and Whitaker fights could have been scored against Oscar.

But my point is that Shane never fought good Welterweights like those except Oscar and been competitive with them (he was blown away by Forrest in their first encounter)....and like I said before I thought Oscar won the rematch and only lost the first fight because he fought the wrong fight.

Bottomline...I can't see a case for Mosley being called a better fighter than Oscar De La Hoya even IF you hate De La Hoya.

The problem with your logic is that you're basing Floyd's win on what Oscar was previously, not what he was at the time they fought.

That's why I voted for Cotto's win vs Floyd's.

[slystaff]

The problem with your logic is that you're basing Floyd's win on what Oscar was previously, not what he was at the time they fought.

That's why I voted for Cotto's win vs Floyd's.It can be argued the same for Shane though...who's even older than Oscar.

[Erratic]

He's older then PBF ...

So you are saying that DLH is better at 154 now then when he first moved to 154 simply because he has been there longer ??
C'mon Jake , we both know he was better when he first moved to 154.
Same applys to Mayweather ...

Also , lets not forget , when it comes to weighing in for a pro fight , DLH actually weighed in less then PBF did in their respective start of their careers ...

De La Hoya is still the larger guy physically than Mayweather, as you have admitted before.

Oscar fought at 130 a grand total of two times, while Floyd made the limit from 1998 when he won the title to the end of 2001, except for one non-title fight. Five years into Oscar's pro career, he was already a welter (who looked bigger than his opponents). At age 25, Oscar weighed in at 161 on fight night for a welterweight fight, while Mayweather was a lightweight weighing in at 138 on fight night. Oscar has either weighed unofficially on fight night (he doesn't allow himself to be weighed nowadays) or the day since the age of 27 to the present day in the mid 150s.

[Erratic]

:lol: I take it you can't refute my post.

Agreed, however that the Quartey and Whitaker fights could have been scored against Oscar.

But my point is that Shane never fought good Welterweights like those except Oscar and been competitive with them (he was blown away by Forrest in their first encounter)....and like I said before I thought Oscar won the rematch and only lost the first fight because he fought the wrong fight.

Bottomline...I can't see a case for Mosley being called a better fighter than Oscar De La Hoya even IF you hate De La Hoya.

Mosley has the edge head-to-head, but De La Hoya has the superior resume/accomplishments overall and will go down higher in history than Shane, IMO.

[Hanzy]

Floyd's win over Oscar was a joke. Hell the crowd was yelling "UFC.....UFC" after that fight.:lol: :laughing: The Mosley/Cotto fight was a good one and Mosley is far more serious about his career than DLH.

[LOK]

Floyd's win was FAR FAR FAR more impressive

[Father of Muzse]

Mosley has the edge head-to-head, but De La Hoya has the superior resume/accomplishments overall and will go down higher in history than Shane, IMO.

That's fine, but that's not the question.

Shane's wins over Vargas (which were at 154 vs a shot Vargas, bt Shane handled him like he should handle shot fighters) and more importantly the Collazo win certainly established him as a top fighter at 147.

Oscar got knocked out by Hopkins...sat out a year...knocked out Mayo...sat out a year.

Shane was active and had previously beaten a top ranked fighter. The last time Oscar beat a top rated fighter was the 2004 Sturm fight...which he arguably won.

That takes us back to 2002 when he KO'd Vargas.

That's a five year gap which is a significant period of time between top shelf wins.

[Hex-One]

Floyd's win was FAR FAR FAR more impressiveBULLSHIT! :nono:

[CleanYourClock]

FACT not fiction! :cool:

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

[slystaff]

BULLSHIT! :nono:

The way I see it..Oscar's only been one fighter's bitch (total ownership) and that was the great Middleweight champion, Bernard "the Executioner" Hopkins who moved up to Lightheavyweight and dominated Tarver. No shame in that.

Shane's been Forrest's bitch! (his master even had him screaming for his pleasure in the 10th round of that first fight).

Forrest doesn't compare with Hopkins.

So...what can we conclude from these findings?

Ah yes...

Beating Oscar is more impressive than beating Shane. :cool:

[CleanYourClock]

The way I see it..Oscar's only been one fighter's bitch (total ownership) and that was the great Middleweight champion, Bernard "the Executioner" Hopkins who moved up to Lightheavyweight and dominated Tarver. No shame in that.

Shane's been Forrest's bitch! (his master even had him screaming for his pleasure in the 10th round of that first fight).

Forrest doesn't compare with Hopkins.

So...what can we conclude from these findings?

Ah yes...

Beating Oscar is more impressive than beating Shane. :cool:

Not really beating though , you mean just getting the W ...
Floyd clinched , ran , and punch gloves to a cheap Split decision victory.
At least Cotto & Mosely actually fought.
Everytime DLH tried to get the action going , PBF would clinch and hug him - or grab his arms so he couldn't punch ...
If he is so good , why didn't he combo the shit out of DLH and beat his ass ? Why did he have to resort to other tactics besides actually fighting to get out of any particular situation ?
It was a cheap ass "W" on his record at best ....