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View Full Version : Is it fair to say that Eastern European's emergence as the best heavy-weights....



Double L
02-24-2008, 03:25 PM
...is the reason nobody gives a fuck about the division anymore and why 90% of the fights there are bore-fests, unless, for example, someone like Lewis or Peter is involved and the robots' metal is tested and they're actually made to fight?

Ugotabe Kidding
02-24-2008, 03:27 PM
Yes I would say that it is their tactical brilliance that has proven to be too much for the dumb people elsewhere and their intelligent boxing is too difficult for everybody else to understand

Double L
02-24-2008, 03:31 PM
Yes I would say that it is their tactical brilliance that has proven to be too much for the dumb people elsewhere and their intelligent boing is too difficult for everybody else to understand

smarter or not, their pay-days will continue to diminish, and heavy-weight boxing wiol become the step child of the sport.

dymipepel
02-24-2008, 03:34 PM
Eastern European fighters are total crap. Did you notice that whenever a given division becomes totally devoid of talent, Eastern Euros are there to take over, while if a division has at least one elite fighter, Eastern Euros are nowhere in sight?
Case in point: cruisers. Vasily Jirov was the champ, while the division was totally empty. As soon as division became alive with guys like Toney, Mormeck, Haye, etc...... Jirov was gone, unable to handle the higher level of competition.
Case in point: welterweights. The division is star-studded, with guys like PBF, Cotto, Quintana, Baldomir, etc, and with lower-end guys like Margarito, Williams etc. There's not a single Eastern Euro among the best of the division.....except interim champion Nuzhnenko, who's actually a Cotto's mandatory (Nuzhnenko is so bad, Cotto will probably drop his belt, rather than waste his time with the bum).
Case in point: heavyweights. When the division was chock-full of fighters such as Lennox, Holy, Tyson, Eastern Euro bums were nowhere to be found. When Quitaly finally found the balls to step up and face an old Lennox, he got beaten up so badly, the fight had to be stopped, out of fears that Quitaly's face might disintegrate.
Case in point: welterweights. While guys like Tito, PBF, Oscar, Quartey, Whitaker, Mosley were fighting each other for boxing supremacy, Kostya Zoo somehow managed to avoid ALL of them, prefering to fight no-hopers like Mitchell.
Case in point: junior-middleweights: while guys like Tito, PBF, Oscar, Quartey, Whitaker, Mosley were fighting each other for boxing supremacy, Roman Karmazin somehow managed to avoid all of them, preferring to lose to no-hopers like Castilejo and Bunema.

Bottom line: if a boxing division has at least one legitimate elite boxer, Eastern Euros are nowhere to be found.
Eastern Euros are like vultures: descending on weak and dead divisions, while avoiding the most stacked divisions.

Mitchell Kane
02-24-2008, 03:58 PM
...is the reason nobody gives a fuck about the division anymore and why 90% of the fights there are bore-fests, unless, for example, someone like Lewis or Peter is involved and the robots' metal is tested and they're actually made to fight?

It's probably closer to being the exact opposite.

Eastern European fans like those from Russia, Ukraine, Poland, etc. usually support "their" fighters in the US more than American fight fans support "theirs".

Even an entertaining American champion like Brewster didn't draw well in the US...which is why he defended his title in Europe.

The most heavily attended of his US title defenses was against Golota in Chicago...because of Polish fans.

Americans like Tony Thompson, Calvin Brock and Chris Arreola aren't huge draws.

Toney and Rahman are both past it, but it's not like they were huge draws when they were near the top of the division.

Also, there seems to be a pretty wide net being cast on Eastern Europeans. Maskaev isn't what I'd call a boring fighter, neither is Chagaev. I wouldn't call fighters like Golota, Liakhovich, Povetkin, Platov, or Boytsov boring either.

Even Vitali Klitschko wasn't exactly boring...his fights with Lewis, Sanders, Williams and Johnson weren't boring...and he didn't really play it safe in any of those fights.

Mitchell Kane
02-24-2008, 04:02 PM
Here's a question: How entertained were you by Toney-Rahman, Ruiz-Toney (or Toney-Ruiz), Ruiz-Rahman?

Azazel
02-24-2008, 04:23 PM
Here's a question: How entertained were you by Toney-Rahman, Ruiz-Toney (or Toney-Ruiz), Ruiz-Rahman?
Far, far more than by yesterday garbage, or than Valuev-Bergeron/Lyakhovich, or than Iggy-Holyfield/Briggs

lb 4 lb
02-24-2008, 04:32 PM
Eastern European fighters are total crap. Did you notice that whenever a given division becomes totally devoid of talent, Eastern Euros are there to take over, while if a division has at least one elite fighter, Eastern Euros are nowhere in sight?
Case in point: cruisers. Vasily Jirov was the champ, while the division was totally empty. As soon as division became alive with guys like Toney, Mormeck, Haye, etc...... Jirov was gone, unable to handle the higher level of competition.
Case in point: welterweights. The division is star-studded, with guys like PBF, Cotto, Quintana, Baldomir, etc, and with lower-end guys like Margarito, Williams etc. There's not a single Eastern Euro among the best of the division.....except interim champion Nuzhnenko, who's actually a Cotto's mandatory (Nuzhnenko is so bad, Cotto will probably drop his belt, rather than waste his time with the bum).
Case in point: heavyweights. When the division was chock-full of fighters such as Lennox, Holy, Tyson, Eastern Euro bums were nowhere to be found. When Quitaly finally found the balls to step up and face an old Lennox, he got beaten up so badly, the fight had to be stopped, out of fears that Quitaly's face might disintegrate.
Case in point: welterweights. While guys like Tito, PBF, Oscar, Quartey, Whitaker, Mosley were fighting each other for boxing supremacy, Kostya Zoo somehow managed to avoid ALL of them, prefering to fight no-hopers like Mitchell.
Case in point: junior-middleweights: while guys like Tito, PBF, Oscar, Quartey, Whitaker, Mosley were fighting each other for boxing supremacy, Roman Karmazin somehow managed to avoid all of them, preferring to lose to no-hopers like Castilejo and Bunema.

Bottom line: if a boxing division has at least one legitimate elite boxer, Eastern Euros are nowhere to be found.
Eastern Euros are like vultures: descending on weak and dead divisions, while avoiding the most stacked divisions.Agree with everything except Vitali getting beaten up so badly. He held his own though he did lose.

ArturoGatti
02-24-2008, 04:46 PM
...is the reason nobody gives a fuck about the division anymore and why 90% of the fights there are bore-fests, unless, for example, someone like Lewis or Peter is involved and the robots' metal is tested and they're actually made to fight?yeah, the great Samuel Peter. What's the use of being exciting when you are so bad even McCline wipes the floor with you?:lol:

Double L
02-24-2008, 04:54 PM
It's probably closer to being the exact opposite.

Eastern European fans like those from Russia, Ukraine, Poland, etc. usually support "their" fighters in the US more than American fight fans support "theirs".

Even an entertaining American champion like Brewster didn't draw well in the US...which is why he defended his title in Europe.

The most heavily attended of his US title defenses was against Golota in Chicago...because of Polish fans.

Americans like Tony Thompson, Calvin Brock and Chris Arreola aren't huge draws.

Toney and Rahman are both past it, but it's not like they were huge draws when they were near the top of the division.

Also, there seems to be a pretty wide net being cast on Eastern Europeans. Maskaev isn't what I'd call a boring fighter, neither is Chagaev. I wouldn't call fighters like Golota, Liakhovich, Povetkin, Platov, or Boytsov boring either.

Even Vitali Klitschko wasn't exactly boring...his fights with Lewis, Sanders, Williams and Johnson weren't boring...and he didn't really play it safe in any of those fights.

the financial aspect was argu,emtative, and probably a faiing one.

my major point is, heavyweight fights aren't fin to wach anymore -- at least not in general. and i'm asking the question, is that due to the emergence of more and more eastern euopea s who rarely war with each other and create zero excitement in fsvor of techincal smarts.

lb 4 lb
02-24-2008, 04:56 PM
yeah, the great Samuel Peter. What's the use of being exciting when you are so bad even McCline wipes the floor with you?:lol:You watch yourself AG, you know damn well Wlad ruined Peter. :lol:

Mitchell Kane
02-24-2008, 04:58 PM
the financial aspect was argu,emtative, and probably a faiing one.

my major point is, heavyweight fights aren't fin to wach anymore -- at least not in general. and i'm asking the question, is that due to the emergence of more and more eastern euopea s who rarely war with each other and create zero excitement in fsvor of techincal smarts.

John Ruiz and Chris Byrd were two of the most criticized heavyweights of recent memory, in terms of entertainment value, and neither were Eastern European.

On the other hand, Vitali Klitschko was actually an entertaining champion. The last four fights of his career were all re-watchable.

The fight was not very exciting last night. I just think it's a little too easy to start using that fight to start making general arguments.

ArturoGatti
02-24-2008, 05:01 PM
You watch yourself AG, you know damn well Wlad ruined Peter. :lol::lol:

Peter got famous off of one good KO win. And by good, I mean it was a good ko, not really taht good of a win.

Double L
02-24-2008, 05:02 PM
John Ruiz and Chris Byrd were two of the most criticized heavyweights of recent memory, in terms of entertainment value, and neither were Eastern European.

On the other hand, Vitali Klitschko was actually an entertaining champion. The last four fights of his career were all re-watchable.

The fight was not very exciting last night. I just think it's a little too easy to start using that fight to start making general arguments.

i don't know. first of all the thread is posed as a question, so don't address me like i've made a claim one way or the other.

secomndly, vitali's exciting fights were the exceptiond - in general he 1-2'd a guy half his size until he either dropped or 12 roumds pssed. \\

Mitchell Kane
02-24-2008, 05:11 PM
i don't know. first of all the thread is posed as a question, so don't address me like i've made a claim one way or the other.

secomndly, vitali's exciting fights were the exceptiond - in general he 1-2'd a guy half his size until he either dropped or 12 roumds pssed. \\

Yeah, you were being very objective.

They're the reason "nobody gives a fuck about the division anymore" and "why 90% of the fights there are bore-fests".

ArturoGatti
02-24-2008, 05:15 PM
Yeah, you were being very objective.

They're the reason "nobody gives a fuck about the division anymore" and "why 90% of the fights there are bore-fests".:lol:

come on, he is just asking a question.

dymipepel
02-24-2008, 05:16 PM
secomndly, vitali's exciting fights were the exceptiond - in general he 1-2'd a guy half his size until he either dropped or 12 roumds pssed. \\ (file://\\)

And how often has 12 rounds passed in Vitaly's career?

Double L
02-24-2008, 05:21 PM
Here's a question: How entertained were you by Toney-Rahman, Ruiz-Toney (or Toney-Ruiz), Ruiz-Rahman?

ruiz/tomey was awesome !!!nruiz/rahman? not as much. toney/rahman? average. rahman's a stinker - he seems to contradict the theory.

Double L
02-24-2008, 05:24 PM
Yeah, you were being very objective.

They're the reason "nobody gives a fuck about the division anymore" and "why 90% of the fights there are bore-fests".

i ask the question. i don't make the claim. you're sensitive like a bitch.

lb 4 lb
02-24-2008, 05:25 PM
:lol:

come on, he is just asking a question.
:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

dsimon3387
02-24-2008, 06:00 PM
Eastern European fighters are total crap. Did you notice that whenever a given division becomes totally devoid of talent, Eastern Euros are there to take over, while if a division has at least one elite fighter, Eastern Euros are nowhere in sight?
Case in point: cruisers. Vasily Jirov was the champ, while the division was totally empty. As soon as division became alive with guys like Toney, Mormeck, Haye, etc...... Jirov was gone, unable to handle the higher level of competition.
Case in point: welterweights. The division is star-studded, with guys like PBF, Cotto, Quintana, Baldomir, etc, and with lower-end guys like Margarito, Williams etc. There's not a single Eastern Euro among the best of the division.....except interim champion Nuzhnenko, who's actually a Cotto's mandatory (Nuzhnenko is so bad, Cotto will probably drop his belt, rather than waste his time with the bum).
Case in point: heavyweights. When the division was chock-full of fighters such as Lennox, Holy, Tyson, Eastern Euro bums were nowhere to be found. When Quitaly finally found the balls to step up and face an old Lennox, he got beaten up so badly, the fight had to be stopped, out of fears that Quitaly's face might disintegrate.
Case in point: welterweights. While guys like Tito, PBF, Oscar, Quartey, Whitaker, Mosley were fighting each other for boxing supremacy, Kostya Zoo somehow managed to avoid ALL of them, prefering to fight no-hopers like Mitchell.
Case in point: junior-middleweights: while guys like Tito, PBF, Oscar, Quartey, Whitaker, Mosley were fighting each other for boxing supremacy, Roman Karmazin somehow managed to avoid all of them, preferring to lose to no-hopers like Castilejo and Bunema.

Bottom line: if a boxing division has at least one legitimate elite boxer, Eastern Euros are nowhere to be found.
Eastern Euros are like vultures: descending on weak and dead divisions, while avoiding the most stacked divisions.

dsimon writes:

Very interesting observation. The tendencies you speak of are real. There might be other explanations but the observation is a good one.

When I see the Eastern Euro guys fight I do notice that they have some skills but do not look elite.

I would also say that their Olmpic success is a feather in your cap. I think that Olmpic boxing has also declined though, along with the professional ranks. I think the same tendency could explain why the Eastern Euro guys have olmpic success. I also acknowedge that you could make the point that Olmpic skills do not translate professionally and question how great some of the fighters I think are elite truly are. In other words if you brought out Lazlo I would have to concede that you might have a point.:lol:

The Eastern Euro guys don't have footwork, they cannot punch hard and have none of the refinements that seem characteristic of the elites.

Good post D.:bears:

Mitchell Kane
02-24-2008, 06:18 PM
i ask the question. i don't make the claim. you're sensitive like a bitch.

Corection: you use the question to make the claim.

Double L
02-25-2008, 01:19 AM
Corection: you use the question to make the claim.

correction: i ask the question to invite arguments from both side.

TKO
02-25-2008, 03:37 AM
...is the reason nobody gives a fuck about the division anymore and why 90% of the fights there are bore-fests, unless, for example, someone like Lewis or Peter is involved and the robots' metal is tested and they're actually made to fight?


Well that is the American way....

Roll With The Punches
02-25-2008, 03:43 AM
could the lack of acceptance of european fighters purely be a backblash against european superiority? :dunno:

His_Royness
02-25-2008, 06:29 AM
dsimon writes:

Very interesting observation. The tendencies you speak of are real. There might be other explanations but the observation is a good one.

When I see the Eastern Euro guys fight I do notice that they have some skills but do not look elite.

I would also say that their Olmpic success is a feather in your cap. I think that Olmpic boxing has also declined though, along with the professional ranks. I think the same tendency could explain why the Eastern Euro guys have olmpic success. I also acknowedge that you could make the point that Olmpic skills do not translate professionally and question how great some of the fighters I think are elite truly are. In other words if you brought out Lazlo I would have to concede that you might have a point.:lol:

The Eastern Euro guys don't have footwork, they cannot punch hard and have none of the refinements that seem characteristic of the elites.

Good post D.:bears:


do you try to come off more lika an american idiot lately? Wlad can't punch hard or waht? :doh:

KaukipRrr
02-25-2008, 08:03 AM
:crafty: We ban OC and all of a sudden whitey starts taking a pounding, is this a victory party or what?..

dsimon3387
02-25-2008, 09:46 AM
do you try to come off more lika an american idiot lately? Wlad can't punch hard or waht? :doh:

dsimon writes:

Vlad is trained in the USA asswipe by the premier US trainer in the sport. He and his brother are exceptions to the rule but never the less that alone does not invalidate the rule. And... they share many of the same characteristics despite their punching ability, of other guys from the area. Also Dim's point stands because Vlad is not an established elite fighter, his win over Peter looking less impressive every day.

His_Royness
02-25-2008, 09:52 AM
Also Dim's point stands because Vlad is not an established elite fighter


okay :rolleyes:

salaco
02-25-2008, 09:59 AM
Wlad is not an established elite fighter? :lol:
That's possibly a new low for this forum

LOK
02-25-2008, 10:10 AM
Eastern European fighters are total crap

:bears:

that is it in a nutshell:bears:

mexican wedding shirt
02-25-2008, 06:54 PM
Wlad is not an established elite fighter? :lol:
That's possibly a new low for this forum

dsimon has been on a SERIOUS downward spiral recently, for real.

First of, it's taylor is a devastating KO puncher, then it's european fighter's can't punch hard, then it's Steward is the premier US trainer in the sport, and now it's Wlad is not an established elite fighter :lol: :lol:

Double L
02-25-2008, 07:11 PM
could the lack of acceptance of european fighters purely be a backblash against european superiority? :dunno:

they're "good" fighters. they're just not exciting in general. although Povetkin is pretty exciting but I don't see how he's gonna beat one of the robots out there being as small as he is.

Joe King
02-25-2008, 08:24 PM
dsimon writes:

Vlad is trained in the USA asswipe by the premier US trainer in the sport.

What part of the USA is this? New Jersey? Detroit?:lol:

Breeze
02-25-2008, 10:29 PM
and heavy-weight boxing wiol become the step child of the sport.

I think it already has. Any casual fans I speak to say they don't even like heavyweights anymore. I don't even think a lot of them can name the majority of the "elite" heavys out there right now.

The lighter weight divisions are most likely the future of the sport.

ILLUMINATI
02-25-2008, 10:32 PM
I think it already has. Any casual fans I speak to say they don't even like heavyweights anymore. I don't even think a lot of them can name the majority of the "elite" heavys out there right now.

The lighter weight divisions are most likely the future of the sport.

what "elite" heavyweight? :dunno:

KaukipRrr
02-25-2008, 11:31 PM
what "elite" heavyweight? :dunno:

One thing's for sure, those polar bears would wipe out all your favourite midgets http://www.fightbeat.com/forums/images/icons/icon12.gif including, "Iron-boy" :laughing: .

ILLUMINATI
02-25-2008, 11:34 PM
One thing's for sure, those polar bears would wipe out all your favourite midgets http://www.fightbeat.com/forums/images/icons/icon12.gif including, "Iron-boy" :laughing: .

MIGUEL Cotto ELITE........any current Heavyweight NOT ELITE...

KaukipRrr
02-25-2008, 11:41 PM
MIGUEL Cotto ELITE........any current Heavyweight NOT ELITE...

Spells, and labels wont stop little midget Cotto being swiped over the top of the ropes, so really, you've got to ask yourself my dear Spaniard, do you really feel that ''empowered'' all because a 5"6 runt holds a belt?..:crafty:

:crafty: Now here come the 'spells',...

dymipepel
02-25-2008, 11:43 PM
Spells, and labels wont stop little midget Cotto being swiped over the top of the ropes, so really, you've got to ask yourself my dear Spaniard, do you really feel that ''empowered'' all because a 5"6 runt holds a belt?..:crafty:

:crafty: Now here come the 'spells',...

Kauki, do you think Illumanati felt empowered when the little midget of his smashed your favorite fighter and made him quit like a little bitch?

KaukipRrr
02-25-2008, 11:51 PM
Kauki, do you think Illumanati felt empowered when the little midget of his smashed your favorite fighter and made him quit like a little bitch?

Yes, ofcourse he would have, 90% of the members it seems from the north American continent are very 'tense' when it comes to Europe and Eurasian fighters :crafty: , hence the messageboard currently catastrophizing with rhetoric and racism due to one boring fight :crafty: the board didn't generate this much energy after --- Byrd / TOS.

Ugotabe Kidding
02-26-2008, 10:43 AM
Yes, ofcourse he would have, 90% of the members it seems from the north American continent are very 'tense' when it comes to Europe and Eurasian fighters :crafty: , hence the messageboard currently catastrophizing with rhetoric and racism due to one boring fight :crafty: the board didn't generate this much energy after --- Byrd / TOS.

word

dymipepel
02-26-2008, 12:52 PM
Yes, ofcourse he would have, 90% of the members it seems from the north American continent are very 'tense' when it comes to Europe and Eurasian fighters :crafty: , hence the messageboard currently catastrophizing with rhetoric and racism due to one boring fight :crafty: the board didn't generate this much energy after --- Byrd / TOS.

What does Byrd-TOS have to do with Abdullaev-Cotto?:dunno:

dsimon3387
02-26-2008, 12:56 PM
What part of the USA is this? New Jersey? Detroit?:lol:

dsimon writes:

My bad Stewart is from Slovania. :dunno: And regardless Vlad is not an elite fighter imo.

dsimon3387
02-26-2008, 01:08 PM
dsimon has been on a SERIOUS downward spiral recently, for real.

First of, it's taylor is a devastating KO puncher, then it's european fighter's can't punch hard, then it's Steward is the premier US trainer in the sport, and now it's Wlad is not an established elite fighter :lol: :lol:

dsimon writes:

1) Ok maybe the statement that the Eastern Euro's don't punch hard is a bit cavalier.... Certainly Maskiev can bang. I will take the heat for that one

2) Wlad is at the top of the division but a careful look hardly qualifies him as elite. I explained my logic on that one. Care to explain what makes beating Peter such a fiate? Vlad has beat guys who are smaller and less skilled than him. He is at the top of the division but sorry, thats not elite. Especially not considering a P4P distinction.

As I told you elsewhere you are putting me under a microscope basically because you disagree with me about Taylor. Why don't yu tell us what makes Vlad so elite.... And while you are at it why don't you tell us what is so ridiculous about the notion that Taylor has the tendency to devlop into a devistating puncher with the right approach?

All you did was pick a post of mine apart in which I compared the potential od Sanders and Taylor.... Why don't you respond to the actual argument instead of acting like a little girl?


Again:

So tell me Mex, what is so elite about Vlad?

so tell me What is so ridiculous about the notion that Taylor could be a devistating puncher?

Barristan
02-26-2008, 01:41 PM
dsimon has been on a SERIOUS downward spiral recently, for real.

First of, it's taylor is a devastating KO puncher, then it's european fighter's can't punch hard, then it's Steward is the premier US trainer in the sport, and now it's Wlad is not an established elite fighter :lol: :lol:

He is

black06
02-26-2008, 02:47 PM
:lol: :lol: Funny shit!


Eastern European fighters are total crap. Did you notice that whenever a given division becomes totally devoid of talent, Eastern Euros are there to take over, while if a division has at least one elite fighter, Eastern Euros are nowhere in sight?
Case in point: cruisers. Vasily Jirov was the champ, while the division was totally empty. As soon as division became alive with guys like Toney, Mormeck, Haye, etc...... Jirov was gone, unable to handle the higher level of competition.
Case in point: welterweights. The division is star-studded, with guys like PBF, Cotto, Quintana, Baldomir, etc, and with lower-end guys like Margarito, Williams etc. There's not a single Eastern Euro among the best of the division.....except interim champion Nuzhnenko, who's actually a Cotto's mandatory (Nuzhnenko is so bad, Cotto will probably drop his belt, rather than waste his time with the bum).
Case in point: heavyweights. When the division was chock-full of fighters such as Lennox, Holy, Tyson, Eastern Euro bums were nowhere to be found. When Quitaly finally found the balls to step up and face an old Lennox, he got beaten up so badly, the fight had to be stopped, out of fears that Quitaly's face might disintegrate.
Case in point: welterweights. While guys like Tito, PBF, Oscar, Quartey, Whitaker, Mosley were fighting each other for boxing supremacy, Kostya Zoo somehow managed to avoid ALL of them, prefering to fight no-hopers like Mitchell.
Case in point: junior-middleweights: while guys like Tito, PBF, Oscar, Quartey, Whitaker, Mosley were fighting each other for boxing supremacy, Roman Karmazin somehow managed to avoid all of them, preferring to lose to no-hopers like Castilejo and Bunema.

Bottom line: if a boxing division has at least one legitimate elite boxer, Eastern Euros are nowhere to be found.
Eastern Euros are like vultures: descending on weak and dead divisions, while avoiding the most stacked divisions.

black06
02-26-2008, 02:50 PM
:lol: :laughing:


:crafty: We ban OC and all of a sudden whitey starts taking a pounding, is this a victory party or what?..