is Lewis a "top 5 hw of all time" ??

[LOK]

this comes from another thread where some wacko said that Lewis is a top 5 heavy in everyone's mind but mine..

for me personally.. I think he is no where NEAR the top 5.. I'd probably have him in the bottom 5

[Ugotabe Kidding]

In my opinion he is, or at least very close to it. To me the top-5 is Ali, Louis, Johnson, Holmes and Lewis

[joony]

that's arguable. he beat EVERYONE he ever faced. if it werent for his KO losses and gay british accent, he'd probably be held in higher regards.

[Ugotabe Kidding]

that's arguable. he beat EVERYONE he ever faced. if it werent for his KO losses and gay british accent, he'd probably be held in higher regards.

His hairstyle also wasn't all that

[Mean Mr Mustard]

I'm not going go anywhere near as far back as pre-1960 cos I havent seen that many fights, but I will list my Top 5, 1960-2000:
Muhammad Ali
Mike Tyson
Joe Frazier
Larry Holmes
George Foreman

Then take your pick from:
Sonny Liston
Floyd Patterson
Ken Norton
Evander Holyfield
Lennox Lewis

[Beyond the Grave]

Mike Tyson number 2!!? :laughing:

[joony]

lewis should be rated higher than foreman

[Ugotabe Kidding]

lewis should be rated higher than foreman

Agreed, and also clearly higher than Joe Frazier.

[Mean Mr Mustard]

Mike Tyson number 2!!? :laughing:Not in any order.

[LOK]

Honestly, you guys all know I hate Lennox.. but as un-biased and logical as I can be.. I can not see him cracking the top 5 at all!! I just can't see it

his only big wins were over guys in the twilight of their career (Holy) or WAY past their time and drugged out (Mike)

he had VERY questionable wins (mercer)

and was KO'd by McCall and Rahman

[LOK]

lewis should be rated higher than foreman

are you being Serious Joony?? :doh:

[Mean Mr Mustard]

Honestly, you guys all know I hate Lennox.. but as un-biased and logical as I can be.. I can not see him cracking the top 5 at all!! I just can't see it

his only big wins were over guys in the twilight of their career (Holy) or WAY past their time and drugged out (Mike)

he had VERY questionable wins (mercer)

and was KO'd by McCall and Rahman
The 'KO'd-By' losses go against Lennox Lewis as an all-time great in the same way they go against Wladimir Klitschko as a 'decent-heavyweight-in-it's-worst-ever-state' analogy.

[Ugotabe Kidding]

Honestly, you guys all know I hate Lennox.. but as un-biased and logical as I can be.. I can not see him cracking the top 5 at all!! I just can't see it

his only big wins were over guys in the twilight of their career (Holy) or WAY past their time and drugged out (Mike)

Much like many other champions. Larry Holmes being one example, Mike Tyson also.


he had VERY questionable wins (mercer)

That is ONE win and it was no more questionable than Holmes-Witherspoon, Holmes-Williams, Louis-Walcott or plenty of Ali's late fights


and was KO'd by McCall and Rahman

And he also avenged those losses. Also he was never outboxed in his life which is pretty rare

[joony]

are you being Serious Joony?? :doh:

aside from knocking out little Joe and brittle Moorer, what other top heavy has foreman beaten?

lewis, despite his two flukish KO losses, avenged both and beat EVERYONE he ever faced. he had two separate reigns, second of which lasted a while.

foreman in his supposed prime, got knocked out by a faded ali, got outboxed then dropped in the end by jimmy young.

you're telling me lewis wouldn't have KOed frazier and norton?

[joony]

mercer inflicted some damage, but it was lewis who was landing more shots. it was the way lewis reacted to certain punches that made mercer appear to have won the rounds that people may have given it to.

[LOK]

you're telling me lewis wouldn't have KOed frazier and norton?


F no!

you say Foreman KO'd "little Frazier" like Frazier was some bum

you are saying Lemmon would KO Joe Frazier but somehow got KO'd by McCall and lost to old ass Mercer?:lol:

[ArturoGatti]

this comes from another thread where some wacko said that Lewis is a top 5 heavy in everyone's mind but mine..

for me personally.. I think he is no where NEAR the top 5.. I'd probably have him in the bottom 5saying he is top5 is certainly more plausible than saying he is one of the 5 worst heavyweight fighters ever. :rolleyes:

[joony]

F no!

you say Foreman KO'd "little Frazier" like Frazier was some bum

you are saying Lemmon would KO Joe Frazier but somehow got KO'd by McCall and lost to old ass Mercer?:lol:

McCall is a big guy with deceptive handspeed and power. Frazier was a midget compared to Lewis and Lewis would've kept him at bay w/ his stiff jab.

you're in the minority who thought mercer won that fight.

[royyjonesjrp4pno1]

Lewis clearly is a top 5 heavyweight.

[jarhead]

I'm not totally with Lok on this but I really see his point. I think a prime Foreman just butalizes Lewis. You can say Frazier was a midget and he was definitely smaller than Lewis, but smokin Joe was a beast in the ring. He would have kept coming at Lewis. Lewis's jab better be on because if it isn't Joe gets inside and destroys him with a left hook to the jaw.

[joony]

I'm not totally with Lok on this but I really see his point. I think a prime Foreman just butalizes Lewis. You can say Frazier was a midget and he was definitely smaller than Lewis, but smokin Joe was a beast in the ring. He would have kept coming at Lewis. Lewis's jab better be on because if it isn't Joe gets inside and destroys him with a left hook to the jaw.

lewis would've fought cautiously against foreman. imo, foreman would've fatigued down the stretch before getting KOed or losing on points.

lewis was also bigger, technically superior, hit just as hard if not harder.

i also rate holyfield higher than foreman.

[Trplsec]

McCall is a big guy with deceptive handspeed and power. Frazier was a midget compared to Lewis and Lewis would've kept him at bay w/ his stiff jab.

you're in the minority who thought mercer won that fight.


I remember watching Frazier deal with one of the best jabs in the history of the sport in 1971 and not being 'kept at bay'.

Lewis had a long, effective jab, but it was no where near the sharp, fast, razor-like left hand that Ali owned.

[Trplsec]

lewis would've fought cautiously against foreman. imo, foreman would've fatigued down the stretch before getting KOed or losing on points.

lewis was also bigger, technically superior, hit just as hard if not harder.

i also rate holyfield higher than foreman.

People tend to forget how powerful Foreman really was back in the day. Are you telling me that:

1) Lewis doesn't get hit by Foreman

or

2) Lewis doesn't get hurt by Foreman


I find both hard to believe considering Lewis was hit, and knocked silly, by lesser punchers.

[joony]

I remember watching Frazier deal with one of the best jabs in the history of the sport in 1971 and not being 'kept at bay'.

Lewis had a long, effective jab, but it was no where near the sharp, fast, razor-like left hand that Ali owned.

ali's jab was sharp and faster, but lewis' was a lot harder. he would've stiffed frazier.

foreman may or may not have been able to knock lewis out, but i certainly see lewis beating him as the more likely scenario.

i dont really care for mythical matchups, but i just think that lewis was better/greater both from a head-to-head and achievement perspective.

[Trplsec]

ali's jab was sharp and faster, but lewis' was a lot harder. he would've stiffed frazier.

foreman may or may not have been able to knock lewis out, but i certainly see lewis beating him as the more likely scenario.

i dont really care for mythical matchups, but i just think that lewis was better/greater both from a head-to-head and achievement perspective.


You're missing the point. Frazier found a way to work around Ali's far more accurate jab. Personally I think he'd make the slower jab by Lewis look stupid.

I can remember Frazier ducking and bobbing under and around the educated jab of Jimmy Ellis and nailing him with monster counters.

There's not a jab invented that would keep Frazier completely at bay. When he was young, he was a difficult SOB to hit with a jab.

[LOK]

You're missing the point. Frazier found a way to work around Ali's far more accurate jab. Personally I think he'd make the slower jab by Lewis look stupid.

I can remember Frazier ducking and bobbing under and around the educated jab of Jimmy Ellis and nailing him with monster counters.

There's not a jab invented that would keep Frazier completely at bay. When he was young, he was a difficult SOB to hit with a jab.

thank you, in the midst of this thread Frazier and Foreman are both being vastly underrated

[3OG]

Top 15 yes , but five is a elite group of guys from a better era. Not to take away from Lennox he ducked nobody and went out on top.:clap:

[LOK]

Top 15 yes , but five is a elite group of guys from a better era. Not to take away from Lennox he ducked nobody and went out on top.:clap:

maybe top 15.. .even then I personally wouldn't put him in but I could see why people would..

top 5 as you said is an elite group

in this thread alone names like Ali, Foreman, Frazier, those 3 for sure are above Lennox

I'd put Holy and Mike about him as well

I'd put Joe Louis, Rocky Marciano above him

5 is a small group... I haev trouble picking the 5 I want but Lennox is no where near the choices IMO

[jaws1216]

He is certainly top 5.

He beat everyone he ever fought. He lost to McCall, "by getting brutaly KO'd" even though he was up at 7 and it was a controversial stoppage at the time (something people seem to forget)

In an immediate rematch he beat the living piss out of McCall. Against Rahman, he got hit with an absolute hail mary punch that would've KO'd ANYONE. And then in another immediate rematch?...he KTFO Rahman.

Apart from that he beat Evander Holyfield thrice (fuck you eugenia williams), and beat a bunch of solid HW's that came up in the 90's.

There is no argument that Foreman or Frazier or Tyson or anyone besides Ali and Holmes could be ranked above him from the last 40 years. He is apparently severely underrated by many.

[Erratic]

ali's jab was sharp and faster, but lewis' was a lot harder. he would've stiffed frazier.

foreman may or may not have been able to knock lewis out, but i certainly see lewis beating him as the more likely scenario.

i dont really care for mythical matchups, but i just think that lewis was better/greater both from a head-to-head and achievement perspective.

A key punch for Lewis against Joe would be the uppercut. Lewis had a vicious right uppercut (although it sometimes seemed like he held the guy with his left hand around half of the time he landed the right uppercut).

I never liked Lewis, but him being a top 5 HW is not completely out of this world.

[Trplsec]

Seriously, I have always struggled with placing Lennox Lewis in the Top 10 All-Time. He certainly has the era domination, big wins and other stats necessary to lay claim to a top 10 spot. Unfortunately I always get stopped by one glaring detail.

The two stoppages against journeyman fighters..

There isn't another guy on my Top 10 HW list that lost by KO twice in title defenses to slugs before they were past their prime.

Think about it. Would Ali, Louis, Marciano, Dempsey, etc really be regarded in the same light had they been starched during their title reign(s) by guys that were histortically viewed as virtual nobodies? Probably not.

No matter how impressive Lewis was; no matter how much he dominated his era; you just can't let the knockout loses to McCall and Rahman not limit his All-Time standing.

[jaws1216]

Seriously, I have always struggled with placing Lennox Lewis in the Top 10 All-Time. He certainly has the era domination, big wins and other stats necessary to lay claim to a top 10 spot. Unfortunately I always get stopped by one glaring detail.

The two stoppages against journeyman fighters..

There isn't another guy on my Top 10 HW list that lost by KO twice in title defenses to slugs before they were past their prime.

Think about it. Would Ali, Louis, Marciano, Dempsey, etc really be regarded in the same light had they been starched during their title reign(s) by guys that were histortically viewed as virtual nobodies? Probably not.

No matter how impressive Lewis was; no matter how much he dominated his era; you just can't let the knockout loses to McCall and Rahman not limit his All-Time standing.

thats fucking ridiculous.

By that same standard, Joe Louis should be regarded as an absolute bum for being put on his ass by fighters who'd lose to Butterbean in 90 seconds.

By that same standard, Ali should be hounded for wanting to quit in the corner against Cooper, and getting gift after gift over mediocre HW's in the 70's.

By that same standard, Mike Tyson shouldn't be anywhere near the top 10 for his KO losses to bums like Buster Douglas

By that same standard, Evander Holyfield shouldn't be ranked high for his KO losses to middle of the road/nobody HW's like Riddick Bowe and James Toney.


You can tear anyone's resume apart if ur a blind jackass about it. Fact is Lennox Lewis got KTFO once, and avenged it immediately in the midst of dominating the division for nearly 10 years

[Trplsec]

thats fucking ridiculous.

By that same standard, Joe Louis should be regarded as an absolute bum for being put on his ass by fighters who'd lose to Butterbean in 90 seconds.

By that same standard, Ali should be hounded for wanting to quit in the corner against Cooper, and getting gift after gift over mediocre HW's in the 70's.

By that same standard, Mike Tyson shouldn't be anywhere near the top 10 for his KO losses to bums like Buster Douglas

By that same standard, Evander Holyfield shouldn't be ranked high for his KO losses to middle of the road/nobody HW's like Riddick Bowe and James Toney.


You can tear anyone's resume apart if ur a blind jackass about it. Fact is Lennox Lewis got KTFO once, and avenged it immediately in the midst of dominating the division for nearly 10 years

The difference is that Ali and Louis DID NOT lose in the circumstance you mentioned. That is where the line becomes divided between the greats and those on the fringes.

As I said, had Ali been stopped by Cooper or if Louis lost to any of the 'bums of the month', then they would both fall outside the Top 10 as well.

Can you disagree? Answer the question honestly. If Joe Louis had his reign interupted by getting starched by Tony Gallento, would he still be regarded in the same light?

You can answer how you like, but the answer is NO. The same logic HAS to apply to Lewis.


*** And by the way, your attempt at revising history didn't slip past. Lewis was stopped by McCall. He stumbled toward the ref after getting back on his feet and it was stopped. Period.***

[REEDsART]

Head to Head, Lennox Lewis is DEFINITELY Top 5...There AREN'T 5 All-Time Great Heavy's who REED would Pick to BEAT Lennox Lewis:nono: ...

But when U Look @ Resume, Accomplishments, Historical RELEVANCE, etc., Lennox SLIDES Down that List a Bit...

REED has No Problem Putting Lennox N the All-Time Top 10, but Top 5 Might B Stretching it...


REED:cool:

[TKO]

If Wlad beat all those bums would he also be top 5.....I dont think so.

[Erratic]

If Wlad beat all those bums would he also be top 5.....I dont think so.

Wlad has already lost to more "bums" than Lewis did, and avenged only one of them, after the guy suffered a detached retina and couldn't get licensed in the states.

Lewis also beat better opposition.

Wlad has a way to go before reaching Lewis's achievements.

[jaws1216]

i dare u guys to name 5 that should be ranked higher than lennox

[Tam Tam]

Top five? No way.

[Trplsec]

i dare u guys to name 5 that should be ranked higher than lennox


Ali
Louis
Holmes
Marciano
Johnson


That list is in no particular order and doesn't include everyone I rank higher.

[jaws1216]

Ali
Louis
Holmes
Marciano
Johnson


That list is in no particular order and doesn't include everyone I rank higher.

with Marciano's opposition and the perspectous of considering match-ups when doing these rankings, there is no chance he's higher than Lennox

[royyjonesjrp4pno1]

Ali
Louis
Holmes
Marciano
Johnson


That list is in no particular order and doesn't include everyone I rank higher.
Lewis would be charged for attempted murder if he fought Louis and Marciano.

[Trplsec]

with Marciano's opposition and the perspectous of considering match-ups when doing these rankings, there is no chance he's higher than Lennox


Wait a second... Marciano beat every person that challenged him for the crown. He held it for 3 years and knocked off 7 guys in title fights. In other words, he ruled the division WITHOUT question. He didn't need rematches to prove he was better than McCall or Rahman.

Unlike Lennox Lewis, you didn't see Marciano getting knocked the fuck out by the likes of Roland LaStarza or Don Cockell to interupt his title reign.

Imagine if Marciano got knocked out twice by bums and I came on here still trying to make a case for his inclusion in the Top 5 HW All-Time. Nonsense.

[Trplsec]

Lewis would be charged for attempted murder if he fought Louis and Marciano.

Personally I think Lewis would beat them all head-to-head, but that's not the point.

[jaws1216]

Wait a second... Marciano beat every person that challenged him for the crown. He held it for 3 years and knocked off 7 guys in title fights. In other words, he ruled the division WITHOUT question. He didn't need rematches to prove he was better than McCall or Rahman.

Unlike Lennox Lewis, you didn't see Marciano getting knocked the fuck out by the likes of Roland LaStarza or Don Cockell to interupt his title reign.

Imagine if Marciano got knocked out twice by bums and I came on here still trying to make a case for his inclusion in the Top 5 HW All-Time. Nonsense.

If you think Don Cockell and Hasim Rahman are on the same level, you are beyond help.

The guys that beat Lennox, would arguably beat Marciano, or any of the guys on his resume.

Unlike Lennox, Marciano NEVER beat a good fighter his size that was even close to their own "prime". He feasted on old blown up lt. heavy's and then retired before having anwhere near the kind of reign Lewis had.

[jaws1216]

Personally I think Lewis would beat them all head-to-head, but that's not the point.

that is the point, rankings aren't just what you did against who you faced, is looking at overall skillsets throughout generations

The fact that Lennox would kill Marciano or Louis in a head to head has to be taken into account for these kinds of rankings

[joony]

that is the point, rankings aren't just what you did against who you faced, is looking at overall skillsets throughout generations

The fact that Lennox would kill Marciano or Louis in a head to head has to be taken into account for these kinds of rankings

i think Tony Tubbs outboxes Marciano. Could I rate him higher?

[Tam Tam]

that is the point, rankings aren't just what you did against who you faced, is looking at overall skillsets throughout generations

The fact that Lennox would kill Marciano or Louis in a head to head has to be taken into account for these kinds of rankings
You don't have the definite answer, so quit trying to act as if you do. Lists are purelyn subjective, as are opinions on who wins what. What you think happens, is just that, its what you think. Similarly as pointless as P4P lists, because idiots get on their pom-pom's out and lose themselve sin their own fantasy land.

What isn't opinion, is fact. And fact, is Lewis on his back, twice, against cans, in title defenses that he was heavily favoured in. Thats fact, and that counts...regardless of how much you'd like to gloss it over.

[jaws1216]

i think Tony Tubbs outboxes Marciano. Could I rate him higher?

does tubbs have the reign as HW champ that Lennox has?

Its not just on head to head, but Lennox dominated the division for years, immediately avenged his fluke losses, and had wins over several really good HW's

[Tam Tam]

does tubbs have the reign as HW champ that Lennox has?

Its not just on head to head, but Lennox dominated the division for years, immediately avenged his fluke losses, and had wins over several really good HW's
Fluke losses? Again, purely opinion. Some will argue that something happening twice, ain't fluke.

And immediately? I didn't know Lewis went right back after McCall. :rolleyes:

[REEDsART]

Lewis would be charged for attempted murder if he fought Louis and Marciano.re-REED REED's Post...

"Greatness" Isn't ALL about Who Wins Head to Head...Like REED Said, Lennox Lewis is EASILY Top 5, if we're Talking Head to Head Matchups...

But N Terms of Resume, Accomplishments & Historical RELEVANCE, he's NOT...


REED:nono:

[jaws1216]

re-REED REED's Post...

"Greatness" Isn't ALL about Who Wins Head to Head...Like REED Said, Lennox Lewis is EASILY Top 5, if we're Talking Head to Head Matchups...

But N Terms of Resume, Accomplishments & Historical RELEVANCE, he's NOT...


REED:nono:

besides Ali there's hardly anyone whose got a "clearly" better resume than Lennox

[Tam Tam]

besides Ali there's hardly anyone whose got a "clearly" better resume than Lennox
:laughing:

"Bigger is better"

[REEDsART]

i think Tony Tubbs outboxes Marciano. Could I rate him higher?:lol:

REED KNOWS Kirk Johnson would OutBox Marciano...Where does He Rank???...

REED:cheer:

[REEDsART]

besides Ali there's hardly anyone whose got a "clearly" better resume than LennoxBut there's 5 or More who CLEARLY have More Accomplishments & MORE Relevance, Historically...


REED:cool:

[Trplsec]

that is the point, rankings aren't just what you did against who you faced, is looking at overall skillsets throughout generations

The fact that Lennox would kill Marciano or Louis in a head to head has to be taken into account for these kinds of rankings


Well then we just have to disagree because I think mythical All-Time ranking should be based on era competition only.

The fact that Earnie Shavers could beat Marciano head-to-head doesn't make Shavers higher on the All-Time list.

[jaws1216]

But there's 5 or More who CLEARLY have More Accomplishments & MORE Relevance, Historically...


REED:cool:

Relevance?...perhaps.

But being fortunate to compete in the era you do, for me, isn't nearly as important as individual skillsets/resume/dominance

[LOK]

you lemmon dick suckers seem to think McCall Stretched him and then he fought him 2 weeks later.. it didn't happen like that

[jaws1216]

you lemmon dick suckers seem to think McCall Stretched him and then he fought him 2 weeks later.. it didn't happen like that

my issue with that fight is very simple.

That same stoppage that you holler about there, Ali would've been stopped in the first frazier fight, Holmes would've been stopped against Shavers, etc. if it was the same referee.

He wasn't remotely starched, he was caught, hurt, and got up. That call to end the fight was premature, and as I say, if he had been in some other era it would've never been stopped there

[Tam Tam]

my issue with that fight is very simple.

That same stoppage that you holler about there, Ali would've been stopped in the first frazier fight, Holmes would've been stopped against Shavers, etc. if it was the same referee.

He wasn't remotely starched, he was caught, hurt, and got up. That call to end the fight was premature, and as I say, if he had been in some other era it would've never been stopped there
:rolleyes:

[REEDsART]

Relevance?...perhaps.

But being fortunate to compete in the era you do, for me, isn't nearly as important as individual skillsets/resume/dominanceThings HAPPEN for a Reason...& Guys R BORN Into Various Era's for a REASON...

Obviously, Ali NEVER Would've Become WHO he was had he Fought N Joe Louis' Era...He was MUCH More DEFIANT, like Jack Johnson, & History as we Know it Would B COMPLETELY ALTERED, had Ali Been the 2nd Brother to Win the Heavyweight Title....

Joe Louis NEVER would've Become WHO he Was, Fighting N Ali's Era...He Wasn't Articulate or Boisterous Enough...

As Such, Imagine Guys w/DRAB Personalities like Larry Holmes or Lennox, Fighting During Ali or Tyson or Dempsey's Era???...

EVERY Fighter is FORTUNATE to B Born N the Era he's In...


REED:cool:

[LOK]

my issue with that fight is very simple.

That same stoppage that you holler about there, Ali would've been stopped in the first frazier fight, Holmes would've been stopped against Shavers, etc. if it was the same referee.

He wasn't remotely starched, he was caught, hurt, and got up. That call to end the fight was premature, and as I say, if he had been in some other era it would've never been stopped there

Jaws.. come on :eeeek: that is classic Lemmon dick sucking.. he was OUT!!

let me find a clip...

[REEDsART]

my issue with that fight is very simple.

That same stoppage that you holler about there, Ali would've been stopped in the first frazier fight, Holmes would've been stopped against Shavers, etc. if it was the same referee.

He wasn't remotely starched, he was caught, hurt, and got up. That call to end the fight was premature, and as I say, if he had been in some other era it would've never been stopped thereHOW do U Figure, JAWS??...

AFTER he Got Dropped HARD & Rose, the Ref ASKED Lennox to Walk Towards him...Lennox did on VERY Unsteady Legs...

Fight was STOPPED, END of Story...

Lewis-McCall I WAS NOT a Controversial Stoppage, if that's what U're Suggesting...


REED:cool:

[jaws1216]

Things HAPPEN for a Reason...& Guys R BORN Into Various Era's for a REASON...

Obviously, Ali NEVER Would've Become WHO he was had he Fought N Joe Louis' Era...He was MUCH More DEFIANT, like Jack Johnson, & History as we Know it Would B COMPLETELY ALTERED, had Ali Been the 2nd Brother to Win the Heavyweight Title....

Joe Louis NEVER would've Become WHO he Was, Fighting N Ali's Era...He Wasn't Articulate or Boisterous Enough...

As Such, Imagine Guys w/DRAB Personalities like Larry Holmes or Lennox, Fighting During Ali or Tyson or Dempsey's Era???...

EVERY Fighter is FORTUNATE to B Born N the Era he's In...


REED:cool:

which is further reason why historical relevance should be minimally used when assesing standing in boxing.

In other realms, yes people are gonna be considered more significant becuse of their times.

Case in point: FDR is the greatest president in history, and alot of that has to do with the era he was fortunate enough to be in, but also because of how he performed in that era.

If Ali doesn't win his rematches with Frazier, or beat Foreman, he wouldnt be considered as favorably as he is now. So my point is to sift through the factor of "fate" and assess how the guy did in the ring, in his own time.

[jaws1216]

HOW do U Figure, JAWS??...

AFTER he Got Dropped HARD & Rose, the Ref ASKED Lennox to Walk Towards him...Lennox did on VERY Unsteady Legs...

Fight was STOPPED, END of Story...

Lewis-McCall I WAS NOT a Controversial Stoppage, if that's what U're Suggesting...


REED:cool:

again compare that with round 11 of the Ali/Frazier fight, or the time Shavers put Larry Holmes on his ass. By that same standard both of those fights would've been stopped and two all-time greats would also have KO losses in their primes.

[Tam Tam]

again compare that with round 11 of the Ali/Frazier fight, or the time Shavers put Larry Holmes on his ass. By that same standard both of those fights would've been stopped and two all-time greats would also have KO losses in their primes.
:rolleyes:

[REEDsART]

which is further reason why historical relevance should be minimally used when assesing standing in boxing.

In other realms, yes people are gonna be considered more significant becuse of their times.

Case in point: FDR is the greatest president in history, and alot of that has to do with the era he was fortunate enough to be in, but also because of how he performed in that era.

If Ali doesn't win his rematches with Frazier, or beat Foreman, he wouldnt be considered as favorably as he is now. So my point is to sift through the factor of "fate" and assess how the guy did in the ring, in his own time.Historical Relevance CANNOT B Minimized:nono: ...

HOW do U Minimize Joe Louis' IMPACT on the WORLD of Sports???...How do U MINIMIZE the FACT that he Defended his Title 25 Times???...

Regardless WHAT U Think of Marciano's Resume, HOW Can U MINIMIZE an UNDEFEATED Record???...It's NOT like there was 5-10 Guys he was Ducking...

Ultimately, a Fighters "Fate" HAS to B Factored N 2 the Equation...



REED:cool:

[REEDsART]

again compare that with round 11 of the Ali/Frazier fight, or the time Shavers put Larry Holmes on his ass. By that same standard both of those fights would've been stopped and two all-time greats would also have KO losses in their primes.U're Completely WRONG N Ali's Case...

When EXACTLY was Ali DROPPED N Round 11 of the Frazier Fight???:dunno: ...N Lennox's Case, he was Dropped, Got Up, THEN he Staggered after the Ref's Instructions...

Even N the Holmes-Shavers Bout, REED Doesn't Recall Holmes Being WOBBLY or Non-Responsive as the Ref Questioned him...


REED:cool:

[Trplsec]

my issue with that fight is very simple.

That same stoppage that you holler about there, Ali would've been stopped in the first frazier fight, Holmes would've been stopped against Shavers, etc. if it was the same referee.

He wasn't remotely starched, he was caught, hurt, and got up. That call to end the fight was premature, and as I say, if he had been in some other era it would've never been stopped there


The debate should end right here. It's ridiculous and serious revision of history to compare the Holmes-Shavers or Ali-Frazier knockdowns to that of Lewis versus McCall.

[Double L]

I'd be hesitant to pick any heavyweight in history against Lewis. Maybe a prime Tyson. But an Ali or a Holmes? I wouldn't like their chances. Lewis is probably one of the hardest punchers we'll ever see. Just watch the Tua fight, having seen Tua's previous fights, to know that Lewis packs something special in that right hand of his - something not quite natural.

Still, for all the praise I've heaped on him, he was a stinky fighter with few exceptions. His war with Mercer was awesome and non-stinky, and his first victory over Holyfield was materful, but there were other fights of his, like his one with Tyson, where he just leaned on his opponent or held them everytime they got close. That always annoyed me about him. I think Steward, for better or for worse, encourages all his fighters to do that and ultimately, it could be doing for some a disservice. I mean. Is Taylor really so inept at fighting inside that he has to hold everytime his opponent is within a foot of him?

In Lewis's case, I think it was insurance against getting knocked out. And who wants to duke it out with Tua. But he used movement more than anything against Tua, and I honestly think if they'd traded, he would've floored Tua for the count.

The Tyson fight more than anything I thought was disgraceful on Lewis' part.

[meetthefeebles]

LOK, you bum, you stole my thread whilst I was at the pub!!!

Put it this way. All fighter's can be judged by their era, and Lennox DOMINATED his for ten years.

He lost TWICE, both times to absolute Hail Mary shots. The McCall punch came as Lennox was trying to knock a hurt Oliver clean out, and his balance was all wrong. And he still got to his feet by the count. He was TKO-ed, but he was up and about.

The Rahman shot was an absolute 'one-in-a-lifetime' shot. That shot, flush on the chin, would have KO-ed any HW in history.

And how did Lennox react? He made McCall CRY when he FINALLY had the BALLS to get back in the ring with him and then he SMASHED Rahman into the next galaxy with a highlight's reel KTFO.

Does anyone want to say with any confidence that Lewis would have won a third fight against either of these two guys? Of course not. HW boxing is a tretcherous business- the weight allows for 'lucky' wins. But, eventually, class will out.

Sure, it would have been better to see Lennox in the same era as Ali/Foreman/Frasier/Norton/Shavers et all. The same should be said of all HW's. But pick me five guys who, head to head, would beat Lennox.

Take away Ali, Holmes, maybe Foreman with his single shot power (though I honestly think it would end up with George eating jabs all night) and possibly Rocky and who have you got? No one is the answer.

That makes him a top 5 HW ever.

Bear in mind that LOK said 'he could be one of the worst belt holder's ever'. He also said that 'when both were fully prepared, Rahman knocked Lemmon the fuck out'.

Now what is worse. Those little tit-bit's, or a possible argument for Lennox being top-5 of al time?

MTF :dunno:

[LOK]

MTF I know you are a drunk bum but you gotta admit. . equally prepared Rahman knocked Lemmon the f out

do you know what Rahman did before that fight? he was a trashman

Lennox made MCcall cry? hmm.. I wonder why? maybe cuz McCall was a recovering crack addict? Lennox beat an old Mike Tyson? I wonder... could it have something to do with Mike being on HEAVY DRUGS and basically fighting for his right to even being aloud to fight with many saying he had no buisness in the ring?

I can not give Lemmon the loser credit for beating guys that were on drugs and had no buisness in the ring

how about one of my favorite.. Zeljo makrovison, he was litterally on his death bed around the time they fought.. rightbefore the fight Manny said "no hw in the world can even last 8 round with Lenny"

well.. Mohawk who was seriously dying not only lasted 8 but was kicking Lemmons ASS at times

LOK, you bum, you stole my thread whilst I was at the pub!!!

Put it this way. All fighter's can be judged by their era, and Lennox DOMINATED his for ten years.

He lost TWICE, both times to absolute Hail Mary shots. The McCall punch came as Lennox was trying to knock a hurt Oliver clean out, and his balance was all wrong. And he still got to his feet by the count. He was TKO-ed, but he was up and about.

The Rahman shot was an absolute 'one-in-a-lifetime' shot. That shot, flush on the chin, would have KO-ed any HW in history.

And how did Lennox react? He made McCall CRY when he FINALLY had the BALLS to get back in the ring with him and then he SMASHED Rahman into the next galaxy with a highlight's reel KTFO.

Does anyone want to say with any confidence that Lewis would have won a third fight against either of these two guys? Of course not. HW boxing is a tretcherous business- the weight allows for 'lucky' wins. But, eventually, class will out.

Sure, it would have been better to see Lennox in the same era as Ali/Foreman/Frasier/Norton/Shavers et all. The same should be said of all HW's. But pick me five guys who, head to head, would beat Lennox.

Take away Ali, Holmes, maybe Foreman with his single shot power (though I honestly think it would end up with George eating jabs all night) and possibly Rocky and who have you got? No one is the answer.

That makes him a top 5 HW ever.

Bear in mind that LOK said 'he could be one of the worst belt holder's ever'. He also said that 'when both were fully prepared, Rahman knocked Lemmon the fuck out'.

Now what is worse. Those little tit-bit's, or a possible argument for Lennox being top-5 of al time?

MTF :dunno:

[LOK]

does this look like top 5 of all time?


http://youtube.com/watch?v=ABZu5v2JPuE&feature=related

that is not a lucky shot either

[meetthefeebles]

MTF I know you are a drunk bum but you gotta admit. . equally prepared Rahman knocked Lemmon the f out

do you know what Rahman did before that fight? he was a trashman

Lennox made MCcall cry? hmm.. I wonder why? maybe cuz McCall was a recovering crack addict? Lennox beat an old Mike Tyson? I wonder... could it have something to do with Mike being on HEAVY DRUGS and basically fighting for his right to even being aloud to fight with many saying he had no buisness in the ring?

I can not give Lemmon the loser credit for beating guys that were on drugs and had no buisness in the ring

how about one of my favorite.. Zeljo makrovison, he was litterally on his death bed around the time they fought.. rightbefore the fight Manny said "no hw in the world can even last 8 round with Lenny"

well.. Mohawk who was seriously dying not only lasted 8 but was kicking Lemmons ASS at times

Like Riddock Bowe, maybe. Didn't he drop his belt in the trash rather than fight Lennox (after an Olympic beating)? A real TRASHMAN... :lol:

And didn't Tyson, your HERO, pay Lennox like SEVEN MILLION to 'side-step' a prime Lennox to fight an 'easy fight v Holyfield? And then he got SPARKED OUT :laughing:

Why didn't Mike fight his mandatory against Lennox five years before Lewis PLAYED with Tyson before putting him out of his misery? Answer- Lennox would have fucking GREASED him. Plain and simple.

Wasn't the 'crying' McCall the same one who FRANK FUCKING BRUNO beat? He'd have to be on CRACK to lose to that pantomime villain...

And if you really think that Lennox was 'fully prepared' for that fight in Carnival City, then you have absolutely no credibility left in my eyes. Lennox was FUCKING about, playing the Hollywood megastar, turning out film roles and NOT preparing for a title fight at altitude. Great preparation.

Your hate is beyond ridiculous. I say again- name 5 HW's who would have beaten Lennox in the ring. Because I sure can't...

MTF:nono:

[meetthefeebles]

does this look like top 5 of all time?


http://youtube.com/watch?v=ABZu5v2JPuE&feature=related

that is not a lucky shot either

I never said it was a 'lucky' shot- I said it was a 'Hail Mary' shot. the nature of HW boxing is that, if you hit a man FLUSH, he sleeps. regardless of who he is.

Now check out a focused Lennox:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VO-vbBQU_ps

If you look real close, you can see Hasim sleep before he hits the deck...

[LOK]

I never said it was a 'lucky' shot- I said it was a 'Hail Mary' shot. the nature of HW boxing is that, if you hit a man FLUSH, he sleeps. regardless of who he is.

Now check out a focused Lennox:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VO-vbBQU_ps

If you look real close, you can see Hasim sleep before he hits the deck...

THAT was a lucky shot..Rahman spanked Lennox like a bitch then got careless in the re

Tyson is in no way "my hereo" but you can not deny that Mike had no buisness being in the ring..

early on Mike wanted Lemmon and Manny said Lemmon was not ready and how Mike used to kick his ass in the gym as kids..
Holy was much bigger fight than gay ass Lemmon at the time

and for Bowe... IMO one of the dumbest moves in history.. Bowe would have dominated big knock kneed lemmon

[meetthefeebles]

THAT was a lucky shot..Rahman spanked Lennox like a bitch then got careless in the re

Tyson is in no way "my hereo" but you can not deny that Mike had no buisness being in the ring..

early on Mike wanted Lemmon and Manny said Lemmon was not ready and how Mike used to kick his ass in the gym as kids..
Holy was much bigger fight than gay ass Lemmon at the time

and for Bowe... IMO one of the dumbest moves in history.. Bowe would have dominated big knock kneed lemmon

Yeah, it was UNBELIEVABLY lucky for Lennox to sucker Hasim with the pawing left before ICING him with the quickest and most powerful right hand any HW has thrown in the last 15 years...

...what a fluke. Just like all the other HW's Lewis SPARKED the FUCK out with that very same right hand... :lol:

Sure, the Lennox- Tyson fight was a mismatch when it happened. So why did he pay Lennox off to 'side step' him when he was younger and Lewis was his mandatory? More luck, huh? :nono:

If Mike beat Lewis in the gym, why did he pay him off? It makes no sense- an easy win for the master in the gym awaited, surely? :dunno:

Bowe would have dominated Lennox? lolololololol. Like he did in Seoul in 1988? Go have a look at that fight. An AMMY Lennox KTFO Riddock Bowe. FACT.

Bowe SHIT himself rather than get SPARKED by LENNOX.

AGAIN- name 5 HW's in history to beat Lewis. Try me...

[LOK]

Yeah, it was UNBELIEVABLY lucky for Lennox to sucker Hasim with the pawing left before ICING him with the quickest and most powerful right hand any HW has thrown in the last 15 years...

...what a fluke. Just like all the other HW's Lewis SPARKED the FUCK out with that very same right hand... :lol:

Sure, the Lennox- Tyson fight was a mismatch when it happened. So why did he pay Lennox off to 'side step' him when he was younger and Lewis was his mandatory? More luck, huh? :nono:

If Mike beat Lewis in the gym, why did he pay him off? It makes no sense- an easy win for the master in the gym awaited, surely? :dunno:

Bowe would have dominated Lennox? lolololololol. Like he did in Seoul in 1988? Go have a look at that fight. An AMMY Lennox KTFO Riddock Bowe. FACT.

Bowe SHIT himself rather than get SPARKED by LENNOX.

AGAIN- name 5 HW's in history to beat Lewis. Try me...

you are forgeting that Mike stepped aside Lemmon to get to HOLY who was the REAL DEAl.. Lemmon was just some bitch boy..

saying Lemmon is not a top 5 heavy is not the same as head to head but even still

Prime Tyson
Prime Ali
prime Holmes
Prime Foreman
Prime Frazier
Prime norton
Prime Ellis
Prime McCall
Prime Rahman
Prime Zeljoy Mackerl
Prime Mercer (or old Mercer as we saw)
Prime Tyrell Biggs
Prime Shavers
Prime Moorer
Prime Wlad
Prime Herbie Hide
Prime Bowe
Prime Liston
Prime Jimmy Thunder

I really could keep going

[meetthefeebles]

you are forgeting that Mike stepped aside Lemmon to get to HOLY who was the REAL DEAl.. Lemmon was just some bitch boy..

saying Lemmon is not a top 5 heavy is not the same as head to head but even still

Prime Tyson
Prime Ali
prime Holmes
Prime Foreman
Prime Frazier
Prime norton
Prime Ellis
Prime McCall
Prime Rahman
Prime Zeljoy Mackerl
Prime Mercer (or old Mercer as we saw)
Prime Tyrell Biggs
Prime Shavers
Prime Moorer
Prime Wlad
Prime Herbie Hide
Prime Bowe
Prime Liston
Prime Jimmy Thunder

I really could keep going

JESUS CHRIST :eek:

I just saw someone really claim that a PRIME Herbie Hide could have beaten Lennox Lewis. :notallthere:

I'll ignore the fact that Holy was 'The Real Deal' after his wars with Bowe (yup, the same Bowe who chucked his title belt in the bin rather than face Lennox, and also the fact that, Eugine Williams aside, Lennox hammered Holy TWICE), and just concentrate on some the obscene NONSENSE you have just posted.

I swear Brother LOK, that is potential SIG material right there.

Tyrell Biggs indeed... :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

[meetthefeebles]

Fluke losses? Again, purely opinion. Some will argue that something happening twice, ain't fluke.

And immediately? I didn't know Lewis went right back after McCall. :rolleyes:

Wow. This is a REALLY bad post from a guy whose boxing knowledge should prevent him from so doing.

When McCall KO-ed Lewis, the whole HW division hit a state of shocked rejoycing. Don King et al basically ensured that Lewis became the most AVOIDED HW in the history of avoided HW's. Not a single titlest would go anywhere near him.

In fact, Lennox was awarded the No1 contended slot by the WBC after he beat Mercer and Morrison, before Don King paid a 'stand aside' fee to allow Tyson a shot at Sheldon. It took THREE years before a completely FUCKED McCall got back in the ring with Lennox. And this was only after Tyson VACATED the WBC title to avoid a fight with Lennox.

You know this Tam. To imply otherwise is completely disingenuous.

[LOK]

I could add

Tony Tucker
Seldon
rudduck
prime botha

[royyjonesjrp4pno1]

:lol:

REED KNOWS Kirk Johnson would OutBox Marciano...Where does He Rank???...

REED:cheer:
Well if thats the case then Lewis gotta be higher. Kirk Johnson was just a name when Lewis was fighting. When Marciano was fighting Johnson probably would have been a champion if he could outbox Marciano.

[LOK]

let me add a PRIMe Seldon

[Double L]

prime Jimmy Thunder? :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

now that is hate!!!!

[jaws1216]

remind us what L.O.K. stands for:lol:

[Tyler Durden]

you are forgeting that Mike stepped aside Lemmon to get to HOLY who was the REAL DEAl.. Lemmon was just some bitch boy..



Now Tyson paid lewis to get to Holy? :laughing:

[Joe King]

I don't know if Lennox's resume is Top 5, but I'd pick him to beat nearly every heavyweight in history, except for Ali and Holmes.

[Tyler Durden]

remind us what L.O.K. stands for:lol:

Lewis the Omnipotent King.

[jaws1216]

Lewis the Omnipotent King.

no, my brother was reminding me of an old boxing.com story with an LOK sig bet on Lewis/Tyson

[The Genius]

HOW do U Figure, JAWS??...

AFTER he Got Dropped HARD & Rose, the Ref ASKED Lennox to Walk Towards him...Lennox did on VERY Unsteady Legs...

Fight was STOPPED, END of Story...

Lewis-McCall I WAS NOT a Controversial Stoppage, if that's what U're Suggesting...


REED:cool:

Never call the Zab stoppage against Tszyu premature again.

[Ugotabe Kidding]

Getting KOed these days is different from getting KOed in 1920s because guys hit harder now. Knockdowns and KO losses happen, what matters is if you can come back from them or not

[LOK]

prime Jimmy Thunder? :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

now that is hate!!!!

dont hate on Jimmy too much, he holds one of if not the quickest KO ever! He could very well stop Lemmon in 1 on his best night

[dsimon3387]

I'd be hesitant to pick any heavyweight in history against Lewis. Maybe a prime Tyson. But an Ali or a Holmes? I wouldn't like their chances. Lewis is probably one of the hardest punchers we'll ever see. Just watch the Tua fight, having seen Tua's previous fights, to know that Lewis packs something special in that right hand of his - something not quite natural.

Still, for all the praise I've heaped on him, he was a stinky fighter with few exceptions. His war with Mercer was awesome and non-stinky, and his first victory over Holyfield was materful, but there were other fights of his, like his one with Tyson, where he just leaned on his opponent or held them everytime they got close. That always annoyed me about him. I think Steward, for better or for worse, encourages all his fighters to do that and ultimately, it could be doing for some a disservice. I mean. Is Taylor really so inept at fighting inside that he has to hold everytime his opponent is within a foot of him?

In Lewis's case, I think it was insurance against getting knocked out. And who wants to duke it out with Tua. But he used movement more than anything against Tua, and I honestly think if they'd traded, he would've floored Tua for the count.

The Tyson fight more than anything I thought was disgraceful on Lewis' part.

dsimon writes:

What the hell is wrong with you!!!! You need to hit the sauce or something.... Thats a decent post! :bears: :cheer: You slippin on me? :lol:


Seriously very good perspective on Lewis and Stewart's "safety first" strategy. I also agree regarding champs in the division. Lewis might be the ultimate winner because of his power. Lewis also was always good defensively wheh he was alert..... in both KO's he looked like his mind was elsewhere before the fight, but in the Brigg's fight for example, one can see how good he is defensively and how he made Briggs pay right away when Shannon went after him. Ditto for the Tua fight.

[dsimon3387]

Getting KOed these days is different from getting KOed in 1920s because guys hit harder now. Knockdowns and KO losses happen, what matters is if you can come back from them or not

dsimon writes:

BS. Hardest punch in the heavyweight division was probably a Joe Louis Right. And it remains so. Size is only a variable with punching power. There have been guys who were marginal heavies like Shavers who punched harder than big guys.

[dsimon3387]

HOW do U Figure, JAWS??...

AFTER he Got Dropped HARD & Rose, the Ref ASKED Lennox to Walk Towards him...Lennox did on VERY Unsteady Legs...

Fight was STOPPED, END of Story...

Lewis-McCall I WAS NOT a Controversial Stoppage, if that's what U're Suggesting...


REED:cool:

dsimon writes:

Reed I think your perspective on how we look at a great fighter is right on the money. I don't know if it is just that we both tend to like to write words, or look at history as more than just a straight line with a clock ticking away.... but indeed the dominance of Ali, Louis and Lewis has a lot to do with where the guys were in history. The way they fought also has a lot to do with their greatness.... Their style, so to speak.

For example, great as Jack Johnson was would he have made such an impact if he had a trainer like Manny Stewart making him consider safety first? No!! Johnson was an "infuriating Ethiopian" (true quote from Jack London) who taunted and was a sadist to his opponent. :lol: He made the rascists in the audience squirm, he didn't just win! And Louis during times of was when this nation needed to come together was the perfect type of champion for the times. Etc etc etc.

Greatness is more than punches and technique for sure. And ever since Hibernian downtrodden stevedores dared to beat up the Queen's heavies in merry old England, one measure of greatness that persists is the opportunity of a man to represent his people in that ring and to figuratively give the oppressor a proverbial black eye!

[mexican wedding shirt]

dsimon writes:

BS. Hardest punch in the heavyweight division was probably a Joe Louis Right. And it remains so. Size is only a variable with punching power. There have been guys who were marginal heavies like Shavers who punched harder than big guys.

Joe Louis was basically a large cruiserweight, and while he was an excellent puncher - crisp, compact, hard and accurate - he was not a monster puncher. Especially not by today's huge heavyweight standards.

People like Tyson, Shavers and Lewis all hit considerably harder with single shots.

[Ugotabe Kidding]

Joe Louis was basically a large cruiserweight, and while he was an excellent puncher - crisp, compact, hard and accurate - he was not a monster puncher. Especially not by today's huge heavyweight standards.

People like Tyson, Shavers and Lewis all hit considerably harder with single shots.

exactly correct :bears: The films don't tell you that but common sense should

[jaws1216]

dsimon writes:

BS. Hardest punch in the heavyweight division was probably a Joe Louis Right. And it remains so. Size is only a variable with punching power. There have been guys who were marginal heavies like Shavers who punched harder than big guys.

that is ridiculous. if size is only one variable we should let manny pacquiao fight Kelly Pavlik and just see who hits harder:dunno:

Joe Louis, in terms of force, isn't one of the 25 hardest punchers, but his accuracy and placement was very good

[Trplsec]

that is ridiculous. if size is only one variable we should let manny pacquiao fight Kelly Pavlik and just see who hits harder:dunno:

Joe Louis, in terms of force, isn't one of the 25 hardest punchers, but his accuracy and placement was very good

Exactly. Damn it's good to finally here some legitimate reasoning around here.

It's amazing that people think the influence of size on punching power ends at 200 lbs.

Fans argue all day that Fighter X didn't have the same punch at 140 pounds that he had at 135 pounds yet, when there's a 25-30 pound difference between heavyweights like Lewis and Louis, the weight doesn't matter because Joe had such amazing technique. Bull shit.

[dsimon3387]

dsimon writes:

Many people who were around Louis and guys like Shavers, etc said that Louis was the harder puncher, including Tyson BTW. So it is not my opinion, it is an opinion held by people who are a dying breed as time slips by..... people who were around long enough to see Louis and guys today. Now maybe others said the opposite :dunno: I don't know.

I didn't say size does not matter I said size is only one variable. It is a fact that some of the smaller heavies were some of the hardest punchers. For example, while Liston and Foreman were a good size and could crack, so could Shavers and Tyson who were smaller heavies. As a matter of fact some people still feel that Shavers was the hardest puncher in the heavies bar none.

Finally accuracy counts when deciding who is a harder puncher because punching straight means impacting the target faster and more accurately. We are not talking about hitting a bag, we are talking about delivering a punch in a fight.

[jaws1216]

dsimon writes:

Many people who were around Louis and guys like Shavers, etc said that Louis was the harder puncher, including Tyson BTW. So it is not my opinion, it is an opinion held by people who are a dying breed as time slips by..... people who were around long enough to see Louis and guys today. Now maybe others said the opposite :dunno: I don't know.

I didn't say size does not matter I said size is only one variable. It is a fact that some of the smaller heavies were some of the hardest punchers. For example, while Liston and Foreman were a good size and could crack, so could Shavers and Tyson who were smaller heavies. As a matter of fact some people still feel that Shavers was the hardest puncher in the heavies bar none.

Finally accuracy counts when deciding who is a harder puncher because punching straight means impacting the target faster and more accurately. We are not talking about hitting a bag, we are talking about delivering a punch in a fight.

this is one of the stupidest posts I have ever read. It looks like an exercise in identifying logical fallacies and unsound arguments, or a desperate retard's attempt at justifying themself.

I mean seriously, people who prop up Joe Louis as the hardest pucher ever are shamelessly retarded, that is all. There are the handicapped among us who think a good 200b guy hits harder than a good 250lb guy, and its simply because you guys suck at reasoning.

Tyson said fighter A hits harder? I'm sorry I don't remember Mike Tyson ever fighting either guy:dunno:

"Liston and Foreman were a good size and could crack, but so could SMALLER guys like Shavers and Tyson?"


Liston was 6' and anywhere from 205-215 during his prime.

Shavers was 6' and anywhere from 205-215 during his prime

Tyson was 5' 10" and anywhere from 215-220+ during his prime.

class is out.

[Joe King]

People have been getting KTFO since Cain KTFO and killed Abel. Size matters in KOs, and I doubt yesterdays' heavyweights could compete with today's heavyweights.

However, there are so many factors that go into a KO that we will never know an answer or should even try to find one.

[TKO]

Wlad has already lost to more "bums" than Lewis did, and avenged only one of them, after the guy suffered a detached retina and couldn't get licensed in the states.

Lewis also beat better opposition.

Wlad has a way to go before reaching Lewis's achievements.

The point I was trying to make was, just because you dominate a division doesnt make you an all time top 5.

[LOK]

a top 5 hw of all time would not go life and death with Zeljio mackovision, a guy who seriously was about to die before the fight

[dsimon3387]

this is one of the stupidest posts I have ever read. It looks like an exercise in identifying logical fallacies and unsound arguments, or a desperate retard's attempt at justifying themself.

I mean seriously, people who prop up Joe Louis as the hardest pucher ever are shamelessly retarded, that is all. There are the handicapped among us who think a good 200b guy hits harder than a good 250lb guy, and its simply because you guys suck at reasoning.

Tyson said fighter A hits harder? I'm sorry I don't remember Mike Tyson ever fighting either guy:dunno:

"Liston and Foreman were a good size and could crack, but so could SMALLER guys like Shavers and Tyson?"


Liston was 6' and anywhere from 205-215 during his prime.

Shavers was 6' and anywhere from 205-215 during his prime

Tyson was 5' 10" and anywhere from 215-220+ during his prime.

class is out.


Dsimon writes:

Lets start with the bottom. So weight is the only thing that makes one person bigger than another huh? So for example when Vlad was what 230 his last fight he was almost Tyson's size.... junior? Talk about retarded.

You saw me.... I weigh 240.... I guess I am pretty much a big heavyweight? If I walked in the ring Lewis would dwarf me yes? Weight is ONE measure of how big one is junior now you go back to class. Liston was a big stocky man, he would be bigger than Shavers in the ring, no matter what their respective weights were.

You also think weight is too important with respect to punching power. Its true that more mass equal's more force and mass is weight & density but speed is equally important and mechanics is even more important than weight or speed.

Lok's watermelon man can punch using his weight through a watermelon right? He probably hits with more weight than most boxers to do this. Does this make him a harder puncher junior? Think about it. Part of punching is the speed, the straightness, the dynamics of when the hand closes, the follow through... As a matter of fact punching is so complicated we could not build a robot that punches like a human being. I stand by my assertion.

Oh and..... Yes weight matters. But there is a difference between the gross weight of someone my wife's weight versus somoene twice her size. As compared to a difference of 50 pounds. And where the weight is distributed. If it is fat, bone density, muscle, it makes a difference which is why guys talk about somoene being big or strong regardless of weight. Mccline for example is a pussy but Mccall, or Rahman are considered "strong" weight is not the issue why.

[jaws1216]

Dsimon writes:

Lets start with the bottom. So weight is the only thing that makes one person bigger than another huh? So for example when Vlad was what 230 his last fight he was almost Tyson's size.... junior? Talk about retarded.

You saw me.... I weigh 240.... I guess I am pretty much a big heavyweight? If I walked in the ring Lewis would dwarf me yes? Weight is ONE measure of how big one is junior now you go back to class. Liston was a big stocky man, he would be bigger than Shavers in the ring, no matter what their respective weights were.

You also think weight is too important with respect to punching power. Its true that more mass equal's more force and mass is weight & density but speed is equally important and mechanics is even more important than weight or speed.

Lok's watermelon man can punch using his weight through a watermelon right? He probably hits with more weight than most boxers to do this. Does this make him a harder puncher junior? Think about it. Part of punching is the speed, the straightness, the dynamics of when the hand closes, the follow through... As a matter of fact punching is so complicated we could not build a robot that punches like a human being. I stand by my assertion.

Oh and..... Yes weight matters. But there is a difference between the gross weight of someone my wife's weight versus somoene twice her size. As compared to a difference of 50 pounds. And where the weight is distributed. If it is fat, bone density, muscle, it makes a difference which is why guys talk about somoene being big or strong regardless of weight. Mccline for example is a pussy but Mccall, or Rahman are considered "strong" weight is not the issue why.

Being big doesn't mean you punch hard, but bigger guys that punch hard, punch harder than smaller guys who also punch hard.

if 50 lbs doesn't matter, then lets let Kelly Pavlik and Jorge Arce fight, and see who hits harder.

You are the one that called Liston big and then Shavers and Tyson small.

Shavers and Liston ARE THE SAME FUCKING SIZE, thats why your point was unquestionably stupid.

I didn't even get into the fact that you said we need more people like "Tyson" who have seen both guys and can make an assessment. You do understand that Tyson has seen the same footage we all have, it isn't as if he's 75 years old as you seem to be incorrectly insinuating.

If that wasn't the insinuation then your logic was just pure filth, since we have all seen the footage of Louis compared to other heavies.

If you think a 200 lb Joe Louis hits harder than a 240 lb Lennox Lewis, then you are a fucking idiot. I'm sorry, but there's absolutely no logic that could make that statement true. There is a reason there are weight divisions, and there's a reason that physics exists.

The dynamics of delivering a punch are important, but you can not come here and pretend that sheer size is not relevant to the discussion. I don't care how many people come on here and try to tell me that Tito Trinidad won the DLH fight, those people are wrong. Likewise, for anyone who says Louis is the HARDEST puncher who ever lived, those people are equally wrong.

[mexican wedding shirt]

Tyson and Shavers are 2 people that can hit as hard as anyone in the heavyweight division, as hard or harder than significantly bigger men.


But they are TWO people in the history of heavyweight boxing. Both of them had freakish power.

There is absolutely no doubt at all that people like Lewis, 250 lb punchers hit MUCH harder than Louis, Marciano, Liston etc

Pavlik hits VERY hard at 160, but who do you think punches harder, Pavlik at 160 or David Haye at 200 lbs?

[Trplsec]

It's amazing that people continue to harp on mechanics as if Lennox Lewis didn't have beautiful technique on his fully extended and leveraged right cross.

It's not as if Lennox Lewis threw a shitty, chopping right hand that only hurt guys because of his weight. His right hand was deadly because, at 245 pounds and 6'5", he delivered it with fantastic form that allowed his size advantage to be realized.

In other words, sure Joe Louis had better technique than Lennox Lewis, but not 'better' enough to negate that huge size difference.

I think Felix Trindad threw a better left hook than Evander Holyfield. That being said, I'd much rather be hit by Tito's than Evander's.

[bam^^^]

top 5 all time no order

holmes
ali
foreman
tyson
lewis

[royyjonesjrp4pno1]

top 5 all time no order

holmes
ali
foreman
tyson
lewis
I would have the same list.

[jaws1216]

top 5 all time no order

holmes
ali
foreman
tyson
lewis

In terms of matchups historically, there may be an argument here, but for all the bashing of Joe Louis I do, he is no worse than a top 3 HW of all time with Ali and Holmes.

[LOK]

In terms of matchups historically, there may be an argument here, but for all the bashing of Joe Louis I do, he is no worse than a top 3 HW of all time with Ali and Holmes.

for real..


you can not IMO have Lewis in a top 5 but not Louis:doh:

[dsimon3387]

Being big doesn't mean you punch hard, but bigger guys that punch hard, punch harder than smaller guys who also punch hard.

if 50 lbs doesn't matter, then lets let Kelly Pavlik and Jorge Arce fight, and see who hits harder.

You are the one that called Liston big and then Shavers and Tyson small.

Shavers and Liston ARE THE SAME FUCKING SIZE, thats why your point was unquestionably stupid.

I didn't even get into the fact that you said we need more people like "Tyson" who have seen both guys and can make an assessment. You do understand that Tyson has seen the same footage we all have, it isn't as if he's 75 years old as you seem to be incorrectly insinuating.

If that wasn't the insinuation then your logic was just pure filth, since we have all seen the footage of Louis compared to other heavies.

If you think a 200 lb Joe Louis hits harder than a 240 lb Lennox Lewis, then you are a fucking idiot. I'm sorry, but there's absolutely no logic that could make that statement true. There is a reason there are weight divisions, and there's a reason that physics exists.

The dynamics of delivering a punch are important, but you can not come here and pretend that sheer size is not relevant to the discussion. I don't care how many people come on here and try to tell me that Tito Trinidad won the DLH fight, those people are wrong. Likewise, for anyone who says Louis is the HARDEST puncher who ever lived, those people are equally wrong.

dsimon writes:

Your not addressing my point. I am not talking about sheer size. What I said was weight is one aspect of size. People have bigger or more bone mass sometimes, more length, more wingspan on their frame.

When people get bigger there are more reasons why they could weigh more and not necessarily be bigger. Pavlik is indeed obviously bigger than Jorge, as a matter of fact weight in and of itself has very little to do with it.

It is relevant that people who have seen all the big punchers have a certain opinion, don't be aggogant that way. You can disagree with me and you can disagree with them but if people who have seen Louis fight and Shavers fight for example, and think Louis punches harder, they are not all necessarily idiots. I am not talking about Sugar, I mean trainers who worked with the guys involved.

Do you think that weight is the only factor in determining someone's relative size compared to another person? Thats our disagreement if you do. Again I weigh what Lewis did at the height of his career. Lewis is a much bigger person than I am. I guarantee that if I stood next to him you would see how much bigger he is than me. And while I have a few extra pounds, that is not the reason for the size discrepency.... He has bigger hands, bigger feet, a bigger head, a bigger frame. I have a bigger cock though which could be a big weight difference.

[LOK]

dsimon writes:

He has bigger hands, bigger feet, a bigger head, a bigger frame.

Bigger......

[mexican wedding shirt]

dsimon writes:

Your not addressing my point. I am not talking about sheer size. What I said was weight is one aspect of size. People have bigger or more bone mass sometimes, more length, more wingspan on their frame.

When people get bigger there are more reasons why they could weigh more and not necessarily be bigger. Pavlik is indeed obviously bigger than Jorge, as a matter of fact weight in and of itself has very little to do with it.

It is relevant that people who have seen all the big punchers have a certain opinion, don't be aggogant that way. You can disagree with me and you can disagree with them but if people who have seen Louis fight and Shavers fight for example, and think Louis punches harder, they are not all necessarily idiots. I am not talking about Sugar, I mean trainers who worked with the guys involved.

Do you think that weight is the only factor in determining someone's relative size compared to another person? Thats our disagreement if you do. Again I weigh what Lewis did at the height of his career. Lewis is a much bigger person than I am. I guarantee that if I stood next to him you would see how much bigger he is than me. And while I have a few extra pounds, that is not the reason for the size discrepency.... He has bigger hands, bigger feet, a bigger head, a bigger frame.

Do you think he also has a bigger, heavier penis?

[LOK]

Do you think he also has a bigger, heavier penis?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :eeeek:

[dsimon3387]

Tyson and Shavers are 2 people that can hit as hard as anyone in the heavyweight division, as hard or harder than significantly bigger men.


But they are TWO people in the history of heavyweight boxing. Both of them had freakish power.

There is absolutely no doubt at all that people like Lewis, 250 lb punchers hit MUCH harder than Louis, Marciano, Liston etc

Pavlik hits VERY hard at 160, but who do you think punches harder, Pavlik at 160 or David Haye at 200 lbs?

Dsimon writes:

Louis had that type of power. And if you watch his delivery he had speed and precision as well. Remember Mex when we talk about power of a shot delivered precision and accuracy are part of the equation. You act like Shavers and Tyson were the only exceptions. marciano did not punch that hard, he punched often BTW.

Also please don't misunderstand. I think Lewis punches very hard. Frankly he may punch harder than Louis for all any of us know. But many scribes think Louis was and is the harder puncher and I tend to agree.

[dsimon3387]

Bigger......

dsimon writes:

Man when I get a n erection I get dizzy from the blood drain. :lol:

[LOK]

remember someone here or maybe it was back at boxing or boxingtime, posted info on how and why Marciano could punch harder than a bullet?:lol:

[Trplsec]

remember someone here or maybe it was back at boxing or boxingtime, posted info on how and why Marciano could punch harder than a bullet?:lol:

That was BoxingTime and the poster was Richard Layne... He had test results from the 50's that proved Marciano hit harded than a missle.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

I used to love that guy. He stated once that Marciano threw punches non-stop so I posted a 35 second clip from the Archie Moore fight during which Marciano threw 2 punches. The guy wanted to kill me.

[LOK]

That was BoxingTime and the poster was Richard Layne... He had test results from the 50's that proved Marciano hit harded than a missle.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

I used to love that guy. He stated once that Marciano threw punches non-stop so I posted a 35 second clip from the Archie Moore fight during which Marciano threw 2 punches. The guy wanted to kill me.

:lol:

[dsimon3387]

remember someone here or maybe it was back at boxing or boxingtime, posted info on how and why Marciano could punch harder than a bullet?:lol:

dsimon writes:

:lol: Damn and Triple Sec had to call him on that shit. Sec should have said "why didn't Rocky just lay his mitts out when the plane hit the ground... that guy would have been at his door the next day.:lol:

[dsimon3387]

That was BoxingTime and the poster was Richard Layne... He had test results from the 50's that proved Marciano hit harded than a missle.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

I used to love that guy. He stated once that Marciano threw punches non-stop so I posted a 35 second clip from the Archie Moore fight during which Marciano threw 2 punches. The guy wanted to kill me.

dsimon writes:

What about those guys in Tae Kwon do that can kick a bullet out of the air.:eeeek:





:lol: :lol:

[LOK]

dsimon writes:

What about those guys in Tae Kwon do that can kick a bullet out of the air.:eeeek:





:lol: :lol:

:bears:

I love the stories like that