Tam

[mexican wedding shirt]

Abraham is the P4P hardest puncher in the sport

Tam, this is the strangest thing you've ever said.

He is not even the hardest puncher in his division, let alone pound for pound.

He has a couple of brutal KO'd over mediocre opposition, but when has he ever KO'd an elite fighter?

Look at what effect Pavlik's punches had on Miranda compared to Smurf's.

Would you also not think that the hardest puncher in the sport would be able to KO people 2 weight divisions below him?

Taylor and Kofi had both been KO'd at welterweight, yet they lasted the distance against Abraham.

Yet he is the hardest puncher in the sport, pound for pound? :dunno: :dunno:

[ElTerriblee]

For some reason I think Abraham was a bit busy with his broken jaw against Miranda. The last three guys he fought were unconscious before they hit the deck. How often do you see that in boxing today? I don´t know if he is the hardest puncher, but he has enough power in that lefthook to knock Pavlik out, just like Pavlik has enough to knock Abraham out. If you ask me who has the better chin, I´d say Abraham has never been knocked down, (even with a twice broken jaw), while Pavlik has tasted canvas a couple of times. Abraham has the better defense as well, Pavlik has the higher workrate, is more accurate and puts his punches together better. Honestly I don´t give a f*ck, who wins, as long as I don´t have to sit through years of Roy/Dariusz part II or wait till both are ancient like Calzaghe and Hopkins.

[Tam Tam]

Come on, Shirt...I thought you were a man of the world, exposed to a variety of cultures and patient with them all? If this is so, how can you explain your inability to understand german?

It was CLEARLY laid out to you in the 3rd or 4th round of this fight, that Abraham is the hardest puncher in the sport and was PROVEN only recently in Berlin when he recorded a ridiculous result on the punching machine. It should be in the guiness book of world records. What more can you want?

Fucking ignorant, Spanish hating idiot :nono:

[mexican wedding shirt]

Come on, Shirt...I thought you were a man of the world, exposed to a variety of cultures and patient with them all? If this is so, how can you explain your inability to understand german?

It was CLEARLY laid out to you in the 3rd or 4th round of this fight, that Abraham is the hardest puncher in the sport and was PROVEN only recently in Berlin when he recorded a ridiculous result on the punching machine. It should be in the guiness book of world records. What more can you want?

Fucking ignorant, Spanish hating idiot :nono:

Were you joking then? Did the Gerries claim in this broadcast that Smurf was the world's hardest puncher because of a machine? :lol:

[Tam Tam]

Were you joking then? Did the Gerries claim in this broadcast that Smurf was the world's hardest puncher because of a machine? :lol:
Yes, they did and I happen to believe that they did so with full disclosure and honesty. :nono: Why wouldn't they? :dunno:

[mexican wedding shirt]

:lol: :lol:

Those ruddy Gerries.

I usually steer clear of German broadcasts, they are just not my thing - depite my being a man of the world n' all.

However, I did watch this one and it was far, far worse than I remember.

Like a violent Eurovision song contest.

[jaws1216]

this has got to be a joke thread.

[steve_dave]

Damn Tam, I thought you were serious. I should have known better. :lol:

[mexican wedding shirt]

I thought he was serious too. If he had posted that statement alone, I probably would have taken it as sarcasm, but seeing as he followed it up with smurf would walk through pavlik is he fought a bit more, I thought he was serious.

[Tam Tam]

I'm dissapointed at how quickly you dismiss solid, empirical data as irrelevant.

[steve_dave]

I'm dissapointed at how quickly you dismiss solid, empirical data as irrelevant.


Check my sig. I don't.

[Tam Tam]

Check my sig. I don't.
Then you of all people should know how hard Abraham must have hit the machine in Berlin, if it even surpases rocket power from the 60's.

[steve_dave]

Then you of all people should know how hard Abraham must have hit the machine in Berlin, if it even surpases rocket power from the 60's.


That's fair.

[ElTerriblee]

Yeah, yeah Apollo Creed didn´t believe the machine either. :nono: :nono: :nono:

[mexican wedding shirt]

I'm dissapointed at how quickly you dismiss solid, empirical data as irrelevant.

I guess I just don't trust German engineering as much as some do.

[salaco]

Abraham is certainly among the biggest punchers, big enough to fight in spurts, take rounds off, and still produce brutal knockouts and break down his opponents. No way is Pavlik is leagues above him in terms of class.

[mexican wedding shirt]

Pavlik is leagues above him in terms of class and punching power.

If the smurf nuts up and signs to fight Kelly, you shall see.

[mexican wedding shirt]

Salaco - abraham looks like a puncher against bums.

Would you not have thought that one of the hardest puchers in the sport would have been able to put a dent in the two welterweights that he fought? Welterweights that had been KO'd at 147, no less.

The same as Freitas looked powerful destroying bums, but when he stepped up in class it was evident that his power was nothing extraordinary.

Who turned out to be the harder puncher when he fought Chico?

In fact, we bet on that fight :cool:

[KaukipRrr]

I was horrified to find out that Shannon Taylor went the distance with him, I mean what the fuck?...That was a sure and inevitably brutal KO, I still have trouble believing it.

[salaco]

Salaco - abraham looks like a puncher against bums.

Would you not have thought that one of the hardest puchers in the sport would have been able to put a dent in the two welterweights that he fought? Welterweights that had been KO'd at 147, no less.

The same as Freitas looked powerful destroying bums, but when he stepped up in class it was evident that his power was nothing extraordinary.

Who turned out to be the harder puncher when he fought Chico?

In fact, we bet on that fight :cool:

Well he rocked Miranda eveytime he threw a few punches, he KTFO Ikeke when there wasn't a long line of guys waiting to fight him, and in between the decison wins (did you see the taylor fight? taylor fought to survive, abraham fought bored), he has managed to knock out a selection of weak to solid (no more) middleweights...he's no julian jackson but his power is undeniable at middleweight

By the way, regarding Freitas, it wasn't his power which had me pick him, it was his (at that point) herky jerky unconventional style and faster hands

[mexican wedding shirt]

His power is good yes, but he doesn't hit as hard as pavlik, that's beyond debate.

I'd say he hits about as hard as taylor at middleweight.

Taylor obviously had the power to hurt Pavlik when he got careless, and thus - so does abraham.

But pavlik is the better fighter and harder puncher.

I'd be VERY surprised if smurf won.

[ArturoGatti]

His power is good yes, but he doesn't hit as hard as pavlik, that's beyond debate.

I'd say he hits about as hard as taylor at middleweight.

Taylor obviously had the power to hurt Pavlik when he got careless, and thus - so does abraham.

But pavlik is the better fighter and harder puncher.

I'd be VERY surprised if smurf won.I think Abraham has better power than Taylor. I haven't seen Taylor knock people out like Abraham has. and Arthur also seems to carry his power well into late rounds, which is always a big plus for any fighter, he has several late round knockouts. I have grown quite fond of the smurf over the past year.

[ArturoGatti]

btw, does anyone have a clip of aa's latest knockout?

[Xplosive]

The smurf wouldnt even beat Taylor, let alone Pavlik.

[ArturoGatti]

The smurf wouldnt even beat Taylor, let alone Pavlik.:nono:

[Xplosive]

:nono:

I'm serious. The smurf is gonna have to do more than feast on these no hopers than to convince me he could beat Taylor, or Pavlik. I wouldnt pick him over Taylor, but I'd give him a legit chance against Taylor. Against Pavlik I give him a small punchers' chance, thats it.

[ElTerriblee]

Does Hagler have a shot to beat Pavlik? What about SRR? Pavlik is hurt or kissing the canvas every other fight, but listening to MWS, you´d think he´s Willie Pep. :lol: :lol:

[Xplosive]

Does Hagler have a shot to beat Pavlik? What about SRR? Pavlik is hurt or kissing the canvas every other fight, but listening to MWS, you´d think he´s Willie Pep. :lol: :lol:

I dont remember anybody ever suggesting he could beat Hagler, or SRR, but guess what? The smurf is no Hagler or Robinson! Pavlik isnt a great(as of yet) but he is by far the best at 160 right now, and the smurf aint beating him IMO.

[mexican wedding shirt]

What a fucking ridiculous thing to say. Because I pick him over a mickey mouse titleholder, Abraham, you start insinuating that I would pick him over Hagler and SRR?

Well, no, I wouldn't pick pavlik against either of them if they were around at the same time.

Also, when did I ever act like pavlik is not hittable, or can't be hurt?

I already admitted that seeing as Taylor hurt pavlik, so could the smurf, so what are you talking about, I'm making him out to be Willie Pep?

[Tam Tam]

Honestly speaking, I think Abraham is a bigger puncher than Kelly Pavlik.

[mexican wedding shirt]

Honestly speaking, I think Abraham is a bigger puncher than Kelly Pavlik.

Based on what?

[Tam Tam]

What do you mean? Punching power has no base in factual grounds. Its like debating who's hits harder with a left hook. Al you can show is examples and state why.

ABraham knocks fools out with glancing shots and single blows and has done it right throughout his career. He just doesn't throw enough punches because he's defensive minded a lot of the time and has shit all stamina.

Pavlik is a better accumulation puncher, with big power of his own. His KO % is so high because he throws about 5 times as many punches as Abraham. Similar to the difference between a David Tua and a George Foreman. I think Tua hit harder, but was less of a fighter and less busy.

If there's anything he can do, its crack like a motherfucker. There's just no doubt about it, IMO. It's all guestimation anyway.

[mexican wedding shirt]

Well, he hit Taylor AND jantuah with some solid shots, and they didn't go anywhere. And they are welterweights.

His power is good, but nothing special, like taylor.

Pavlik's punches are brutal. Just look at the zertuche, miranda, and taylor fights, all in a row. He can PUNCH.

I'm not saying smurf can't hurt pavlik, he can, taylor managed to afterall. But he doesn't hit harder than Pavlik.

Smurf has only looked powerful against bums. Has he even stopped a world class fighter?

[Donnybrook]

What do you mean? Punching power has no base in factual grounds. Its like debating who's hits harder with a left hook. Al you can show is examples and state why.

ABraham knocks fools out with glancing shots and single blows and has done it right throughout his career. He just doesn't throw enough punches because he's defensive minded a lot of the time and has shit all stamina.

Pavlik is a better accumulation puncher, with big power of his own. His KO % is so high because he throws about 5 times as many punches as Abraham. Similar to the difference between a David Tua and a George Foreman. I think Tua hit harder, but was less of a fighter and less busy.

If there's anything he can do, its crack like a motherfucker. There's just no doubt about it, IMO. It's all guestimation anyway.

I can agree with that.

Pavlik's got heavy-handed, thudding power...and it's his workrate and accumulation with those heavy shots that ultimately break his opponents down, no doubt about it.

Pavlik's bombs are loose, casual, "dropped" relaxed shots that do damage you don't even realize is there - until it's too late. And they pile up.

Case in point are the Taylor fights - especially the first one; you can actually see Taylor's expressions and body reacting in little increments to those shots as early as the 2nd round. Happened with Miranda and Zertuche too, among others.

Abraham's got those quick, explosive, highly-torqued shots, especially that left hook and left uppercut....I would buy into the assessment that he has better single-shot power, though it's hard to 'argue' against Pavlik's right hand if it's fully extended and catches you clean.

The danger for Pavlik in this fight is actually going to be on the inside...he'd do well to keep Arthur at distance.

Peace.

[Tam Tam]

Well, he hit Taylor AND jantuah with some solid shots, and they didn't go anywhere. And they are welterweights.

His power is good, but nothing special, like taylor.

Pavlik's punches are brutal. Just look at the zertuche, miranda, and taylor fights, all in a row. He can PUNCH.

I'm not saying smurf can't hurt pavlik, he can, taylor managed to afterall. But he doesn't hit harder than Pavlik.

Smurf has only looked powerful against bums. Has he even stopped a world class fighter?
You keep holding onto those two fighters and ignore the other things he's done, like its the be-all and end-all. Plenty of big punchers haven't been able to get fighters out of there, when you'd expect them too. Performance, motivation...shit, there are litterally hundreds of factors which go into what makes a fight take the flow it does.

Pavlik's punches are brutal? Thats just your opinion, bro. Zerutuche is a can of lower quality than Abraham has been defending against. Gevor's loss to Abraham was uglier than all of those. Look how brutal that was!!!111 :doh:

Pavlik has stopped one world class fighter; Taylor. And he didnt come close to doing it when he hit him for 12 rounds in the rematch. Lets not act as if theire is some monumental difference in opponent quality. Take out Taylor and Pavlik and Abraham are the same guy resume wise, displaced by thousands of kilometers.

[mexican wedding shirt]

Zertuche is better than most of the cans Abraham faced. So is Zuniga.

And those 2 are not all I base it on, of course I know that even the best of pucnhers can't KO their opponents all the time.

But if Pavlik hit either Jantuah or Sharon with his right hand, they wouldn't still be standing.

Their only common opponent took smurf's punches a lot better than he did Kelly's.

Until smurf KO's a fringe world class fighter, even say - Miranda, his power is not as proven as Pavlik.

Freitas is a good comparison. People thought he was an absolutely monster puncher, but look at just how much less effective his punches were when he stepped up in class.

[Tam Tam]

Zertuche is better than most of the cans Abraham faced. So is Zuniga.Why, because they fought on TV all the time? Give me a break. Zuniga got trashed by Daniel Santos. Badly. Jantuah KOed Santos. SNAP. :slap:

And those 2 are not all I base it on, of course I know that even the best of pucnhers can't KO their opponents all the time.

But if Pavlik hit either Jantuah or Sharon with his right hand, they wouldn't still be standing.
More opinion. This is no different to my own argument, only I'm not making assumptions about what would happen.

Their only common opponent took smurf's punches a lot better than he did Kelly's.
Bingo. Thats what it comes down to. Your entire argument. ABraham had a busted fucking face and threw no punches and still managed to wobble and hurt Miranda every single time he landed. He never mounted a consistent assault. Pavlik did that for SEVEN ROUNDS and it took that long before Miranda finally cracked...and all we heard right after was how badly weight drained Miranda was blah blah blah.

It's not all black and white. Abraham didn't KO Miranda and Pavlik did.

Until smurf KO's a fringe world class fighter, even say - Miranda, his power is not as proven as Pavlik.
:nono: Proven? No. You can't "prove" power. I addressed that in the very first post.

Freitas is a good comparison. People thought he was an absolutely monster puncher, but look at just how much less effective his punches were when he stepped up in class.
:rolleyes:

[mexican wedding shirt]

Of course you can prove power. For example if you can KO or stop world class opponents, bam, you have power. Pavlik has proven he can do this, and Abraham hasn't.

Why are you rolling eyes at my Freitas analogy? It's true, his power looked formidable against cans, yet nothing special at world level. The same holds true with abraham.

And I am not just basing it on Pavlik KOing Miranda and Smurf not. That's part of it sure. I didn't see Miranda in any serious trouble by the way, when did all this Miranda getting rocked occur? He was stunned a couple of times, but not close to how fucked up he was against Pavlik.

I am also basing it on Pavlik KOing every top opponent he has faced, and their reaction to getting hit by his right hand.

[Tam Tam]

Alright, we've wasted enough time.

As you were, Jew boy.

[mexican wedding shirt]

Smurf fanboy :cool:

So who are you going to pick then, seriously, if the fight is signed?

[Tam Tam]

Pavlik, but depending on the line I may bet Abraham, because I think he has a realistic chance.

[mexican wedding shirt]

What are your reasons behind picking Pavlik? Are you picking him to outwork Smurf and decision him, or stop him?

[Tam Tam]

What are your reasons behind picking Pavlik? Are you picking him to outwork Smurf and decision him, or stop him?
Pavlik's range, length on his right hand in particular is good. He's busier than Abraham and I don't doubt he has the power to hurt him as well.

Arthur has looked far less interested and brave since the Miranda fight.

[mexican wedding shirt]

It could be quite boring, even though they are both punchers.

Abraham has that high guard, low punch output, somewhat negative style.

I have to say I don't see much difference pre and post Miranda though.

Pavlik's handspeed is very average for a middleweight, but for somehow people still find it difficult to get out of the way of his right hand. It's thrown straight, and it's LONG, and his timing and accuracy is excellent.

It also has enough force behind it to just bust through Smurf's guard I feel.

[Donnybrook]

It could be quite boring, even though they are both punchers.

Abraham has that high guard, low punch output, somewhat negative style.

I have to say I don't see much difference pre and post Miranda though.

Pavlik's handspeed is very average for a middleweight, but for somehow people still find it difficult to get out of the way of his right hand. It's thrown straight, and it's LONG, and his timing and accuracy is excellent.

It also has enough force behind it to just bust through Smurf's guard I feel.

That's because opponents consistently under-estimate his height, reach and the distance he can cover with his legs.

One of the main reasons I picked Pavlik over Taylor.

It's the same like with Cotto...he has that casual, methodical, "plodding" style and opponents think he is slow of hand and foot.

Pavlik IS slow...but the ground he can cover with his feet and arms is amazing.

Peace.

[Joe King]

How many common opponents do they have besides Miranda?

[dsimon3387]

Honestly speaking, I think Abraham is a bigger puncher than Kelly Pavlik.

dsimon writes:

Abraham is another Margarito. He languishes on the fringes of being taken seriously as a contender for the big prize. Yes it was impressive what he did against Miranda with his jaw but Miranda is just not that good.

You can't compare him to a top guy (Pavlik, Taylor) anymore than one can compare Margarito to Cotto and Floyd. The smurf should fight Taylor they need each other. I didn't consider this before but this would be a great fight for Taylor and for Abraham and would decide which one of them should remain in the running.

[dsimon3387]

You keep holding onto those two fighters and ignore the other things he's done, like its the be-all and end-all. Plenty of big punchers haven't been able to get fighters out of there, when you'd expect them too. Performance, motivation...shit, there are litterally hundreds of factors which go into what makes a fight take the flow it does.

Pavlik's punches are brutal? Thats just your opinion, bro. Zerutuche is a can of lower quality than Abraham has been defending against. Gevor's loss to Abraham was uglier than all of those. Look how brutal that was!!!111 :doh:

Pavlik has stopped one world class fighter; Taylor. And he didnt come close to doing it when he hit him for 12 rounds in the rematch. Lets not act as if theire is some monumental difference in opponent quality. Take out Taylor and Pavlik and Abraham are the same guy resume wise, displaced by thousands of kilometers.

dsimon writes:

Pavlik dominated Miranda also that counts. It might seem trivial but the addition of one world class guy makes all the difference in the world.

I do understand your critique is based on punching power exclusively but even in this respect Abraham is still an unknown until he fights up a level from his present comp. IMO this illustrates the point of why Taylor and Abraham is a great fight to be made.

[Mitchell Kane]

dsimon writes:

Abraham is another Margarito. He languishes on the fringes of being taken seriously as a contender for the big prize. Yes it was impressive what he did against Miranda with his jaw but Miranda is just not that good.

You can't compare him to a top guy (Pavlik, Taylor) anymore than one can compare Margarito to Cotto and Floyd. The smurf should fight Taylor they need each other. I didn't consider this before but this would be a great fight for Taylor and for Abraham and would decide which one of them should remain in the running.

Taylor appears to be in the same boat as Miranda, when it comes to weight.

They're both interested at competing higher than 160.

Also, Dibella has been pushing for a Taylor-Roy Jones Jr. fight in the fall (though Jones has also talked about fighting the winner of Woods-Tarver).

I'd prefer to see Abraham-Taylor because I think it proves more in re to Abraham, though the Miranda fight has the intrigue of their first fight and figures to be a more exciting fight...perhaps a very exciting fight.

I would mention one thing, however, regarding levels of opposition.

Pavlik's only been at that level for three fights. The two Taylor fights and Miranda.

Before that, he wasn't all that far along. He had only faced some moderate opponents like Zuniga, Zertuche, McKart (and was knocked down by both Zuniga and McKart).

The problem with the division is it just isn't very deep with world class talent. At least not that's been proven.

[ElTerriblee]

dsimon writes:

Pavlik dominated Miranda also that counts. It might seem trivial but the addition of one world class guy makes all the difference in the world.

Well Abraham turned pro three years after Kelly, so he still has some time to knock Jermain out and his resume will be equal to that of Kelly. Actually it would run deeper, but we´ll keep that to ourselves, not ruining the perceptions here. :lol:

The first guy Pavlik fought that wasn´t a career opponent was Zuniga in 2005, that was his 5th year as a pro and his 27th fight. Abraham doesn´t even have 27 fights yet, but I see Miranda, Eastman, Jantuah, Velazco, Gardner, Ikeke, Hamdan, Demers, Gevor.

Ah well you people thought Lacy would beat Calzaghe, and not because Calzaghe was 35 and looked poor in his previous fights, but because you actually thought Lacy was a better fighter, because he had beaten Omar Sheika, and Rubin Williams :laughing:

[His_Royness]

Zertuche is better than most of the cans Abraham faced. So is Zuniga.

And those 2 are not all I base it on, of course I know that even the best of pucnhers can't KO their opponents all the time.

But if Pavlik hit either Jantuah or Sharon with his right hand, they wouldn't still be standing.

Their only common opponent took smurf's punches a lot better than he did Kelly's.

Until smurf KO's a fringe world class fighter, even say - Miranda, his power is not as proven as Pavlik.

Freitas is a good comparison. People thought he was an absolutely monster puncher, but look at just how much less effective his punches were when he stepped up in class.



gnihihihi:atu:

[Free Ike]

Pavlik is leagues above him in terms of class and punching power.

If the smurf nuts up and signs to fight Kelly, you shall see.

:atu::atu:Abraham is one of the worst title holders in history. He is on par with William Joppy, a ton of defenses against a bunch of who who the fuck is thats?

People forget that he was stopped, tko'd by the skilless hack Edison Miranda. He was stopped and he was not allowed to quit even though he begged to quit.

I do not thonk Pavlik is very good but he is a few solid classes above Abraham and he would stop AA. I don't predict kayos usually but Pavlik has about a 95% chance of a brutal kayo.

[meetthefeebles]

:atu::atu:Abraham is one of the worst title holders in history. He is on par with William Joppy, a ton of defenses against a bunch of who who the fuck is thats?

People forget that he was stopped, tko'd by the skilless hack Edison Miranda. He was stopped and he was not allowed to quit even though he begged to quit.

I do not thonk Pavlik is very good but he is a few solid classes above Abraham and he would stop AA. I don't predict kayos usually but Pavlik has about a 95% chance of a brutal kayo.

Lies...

MTF

[ArturoGatti]

Lies...

MTF
Let's just say he has a better chance of ko'ing AA than that drug smuggler had against Amir Khan. :kidcool:

[meetthefeebles]

Let's just say he has a better chance of ko'ing AA than that drug smuggler had against Amir Khan. :kidcool:

Is this an attempt to be amusing Gatti? :dunno:

Of course Pavlik has a chance to KO Abraham, he's the fucking champion of the world! Quite what Amir Khan has to do with this obvious fact is beyond me...

MTF

[ArturoGatti]

Is this an attempt to be amusing Gatti? :dunno:

Of course Pavlik has a chance to KO Abraham, he's the fucking champion of the world! Quite what Amir Khan has to do with this obvious fact is beyond me...

MTF
yes.:partie: