Fights where the outcome woulda been different if the guy was prime.

[Xplosive]

I did this thread a long time ago, and am bringing it back. List some fights of guys who beat past primed fighters, who they wouldnt have beaten had the opponent been prime. I'll start:

RJ-Tarver & Johnson: Prime Jones woulda had some difficulty with Tarver I'll admit, but woulda beaten him convincingly. Johnson on the other hand, woulda been a VERY easy fight for a prime Jones. A young Roy woulda beaten the living shit outta Glenn, similar to the way he did Sosa.

Tszyu-Hatton: Prime Tszyu KO's Hatton, and I'm hardly a Tszyu fan. Hell, even the old Tszyu gave Hatton a tough fight, in a fight where Ricky was allowed to CHEAT. Make it the 99-00 version of Tszyu, and put em on neutral turf where Ricky isnt allowed to blatantly hump, and Hatton doesnt see past round 8.

Tyson-Lewis: Many will disagree with this, and I cant really argue with anyone who thinks that Lummox beats Mike on his best day, but I respectfully disagree. The pre-prison Tyson KO's Lewis. He'd be too quick for Lummox to hold off, eventually Mike would get inside and explode something big, and Lewis goes to sleep. I dare not even mention Tyson-Williams, its too obvious what a prime Mike woulda done to Danny.

Hopkins-Calzaghe: The Hopkins of 6 years ago would have completely outboxed Joe.

Mancini-Haugen: A prime Mancini woulda beaten Haugen.

Johnston-Lazcano: Prime Stevie boxes rings around Laz.

Holmes-Holy: Prime Larry would have beaten Evander by clear decision.

Foreman-Morrison: This one is a given. 70's Foreman crushes Tommy like a bug. And for that matter, 70's Foreman stops Holy.

These are only some...do you agree with mine? And also, list some others.

[Mitchell Kane]

I actually think Holyfield-Tyson is more of a case of this than Lewis-Tyson, but that's just my opinion.

[LOK]

I did this thread a long time ago, and am bringing it back. List some fights of guys who beat past primed fighters, who they wouldnt have beaten had the opponent been prime. I'll start:

RJ-Tarver & Johnson: Prime Jones woulda had some difficulty with Tarver I'll admit, but woulda beaten him convincingly. Johnson on the other hand, woulda been a VERY easy fight for a prime Jones. A young Roy woulda beaten the living shit outta Glenn, similar to the way he did Sosa.

Tszyu-Hatton: Prime Tszyu KO's Hatton, and I'm hardly a Tszyu fan. Hell, even the old Tszyu gave Hatton a tough fight, in a fight where Ricky was allowed to CHEAT. Make it the 99-00 version of Tszyu, and put em on neutral turf where Ricky isnt allowed to blatantly hump, and Hatton doesnt see past round 8.

Tyson-Lewis: Many will disagree with this, and I cant really argue with anyone who thinks that Lummox beats Mike on his best day, but I respectfully disagree. The pre-prison Tyson KO's Lewis. He'd be too quick for Lummox to hold off, eventually Mike would get inside and explode something big, and Lewis goes to sleep. I dare not even mention Tyson-Williams, its too obvious what a prime Mike woulda done to Danny.

Hopkins-Calzaghe: The Hopkins of 6 years ago would have completely outboxed Joe.

Mancini-Haugen: A prime Mancini woulda beaten Haugen.

Johnston-Lazcano: Prime Stevie boxes rings around Laz.

Holmes-Holy: Prime Larry would have beaten Evander by clear decision.

Foreman-Morrison: This one is a given. 70's Foreman crushes Tommy like a bug. And for that matter, 70's Foreman stops Holy.

These are only some...do you agree with mine? And also, list some others.


good list!

I'd like to say Chavez-DLH.. but who knows?

the rest of yours I agree with...

basically all of Ali's last fights as well..

[Xplosive]

good list!

I'd like to say Chavez-DLH.. but who knows?

the rest of yours I agree with...

basically all of Ali's last fights as well..

I agree with DLH-Chavez. A prime JC woulda gave Oscar a late round beating.

Also Chavez-Tszyu. No way does Kostya handle a prime Chavez.

[TKO]

Most of Tysons defeats but I would agree with those mentioned above.

Of course Im going to say Dela V Floyd.

[REEDsART]

ANY Fight that Aaron Pryor LOST...


REED:mj:

[Xplosive]

ANY Fight that Aaron Pryor LOST...


REED:mj:

Yeah I think its safe to say that Bobby Joe Young wouldnt have beaten a prime Pryor.

[Arben]

As dumb as this may seem to most...and on some days, I think it's dumb too...but I often feel that a Prime DLH beats Floyd.

Good list.

[steve_dave]

As dumb as this may seem to most...and on some days, I think it's dumb too...but I often feel that a Prime DLH beats Floyd.

Good list.

Nothing dumb about that at all.

[Mitchell Kane]

As dumb as this may seem to most...and on some days, I think it's dumb too...but I often feel that a Prime DLH beats Floyd.

Good list.

I'm curious, what weight are you thinking about for DLH's prime?

At or below welterweight?

[Double L]

I did this thread a long time ago, and am bringing it back. List some fights of guys who beat past primed fighters, who they wouldnt have beaten had the opponent been prime. I'll start:

RJ-Tarver & Johnson: Prime Jones woulda had some difficulty with Tarver I'll admit, but woulda beaten him convincingly. Johnson on the other hand, woulda been a VERY easy fight for a prime Jones. A young Roy woulda beaten the living shit outta Glenn, similar to the way he did Sosa.

Tszyu-Hatton: Prime Tszyu KO's Hatton, and I'm hardly a Tszyu fan. Hell, even the old Tszyu gave Hatton a tough fight, in a fight where Ricky was allowed to CHEAT. Make it the 99-00 version of Tszyu, and put em on neutral turf where Ricky isnt allowed to blatantly hump, and Hatton doesnt see past round 8.

Tyson-Lewis: Many will disagree with this, and I cant really argue with anyone who thinks that Lummox beats Mike on his best day, but I respectfully disagree. The pre-prison Tyson KO's Lewis. He'd be too quick for Lummox to hold off, eventually Mike would get inside and explode something big, and Lewis goes to sleep. I dare not even mention Tyson-Williams, its too obvious what a prime Mike woulda done to Danny.

Hopkins-Calzaghe: The Hopkins of 6 years ago would have completely outboxed Joe.

Mancini-Haugen: A prime Mancini woulda beaten Haugen.

Johnston-Lazcano: Prime Stevie boxes rings around Laz.

Holmes-Holy: Prime Larry would have beaten Evander by clear decision.

Foreman-Morrison: This one is a given. 70's Foreman crushes Tommy like a bug. And for that matter, 70's Foreman stops Holy.

These are only some...do you agree with mine? And also, list some others.


good topic........

[Xplosive]

I'd also like to add.... Leonard-Norris and Curry-Norris. Terry was one helluva fighter dont get me wrong, but Leonard & Curry in thier respective primes were a level ahead of him, and woulda stopped Norris on thier best days, especially Leonard!

How bout Julian Jackson & Verno Philips? Theres no doubt at all, had Philips faced a prime Jackson, he'd be just another brutal KO victim of The Hawk.

[Xplosive]

As dumb as this may seem to most...and on some days, I think it's dumb too...but I often feel that a Prime DLH beats Floyd.

Good list.

I think at 147 a prime DLH could have beaten Floyd. But at 135 & 140 I'd pick Floyd in another close decision.

[Mitchell Kane]

Pacquiao-Morales II and III. :stir: :lol:

[*Z*]

Pacquiao-Morales II and III. :stir: :lol:

Morales-Raheem? Morales-Diaz?

[Tam Tam]

Any fight where my favorite fighter lost.

[Hanz]

Prime DLH woulda murdered Pretty Boy. Even a shot DLH was a big task for the tip tapper.

[Erratic]

Muhammad Ali-Earnie Shavers: Prime Ali wouldn't have needed a gift.

Pernell Whitaker-Felix Trinidad: Whitaker was better at lower weight classes than 147, but I feel the Whitaker of 93-94 wins a close decision over Whitaker. Tito always would have given Whitaker a tough fight though.

Roberto Duran-Vinny Pazienza

[Erratic]

What about an early 00s version of Shane Mosley against Miguel Cotto?

[Xplosive]

What about an early 00s version of Shane Mosley against Miguel Cotto?

Yup. Thats another. Today's version of Shane was able to win 4-5 rounds against Cotto, and get him in trouble late. I definitely think that the 00-01 Shane beats today's Cotto convincingly. And that Mosley would beat the shit outta Margarito.

[Neil]

Of course Im going to say Dela V Floyd.

I agree against a prime mayweather at super feather, delahoya gets stopped

[LATIN KING]

a prime Mosley never beat the shit ouf of anybody as good as Cotto.

the best he did was clearly beat DLH but far from an ass whipping

I only saw a prime Mosley destroy scrubs never an elite fighter.

[Tam Tam]

Yup. Thats another. Today's version of Shane was able to win 4-5 rounds against Cotto, and get him in trouble late. I definitely think that the 00-01 Shane beats today's Cotto convincingly. And that Mosley would beat the shit outta Margarito.
Cotto was never in anything close to trouble in that fight and he won no more than four rounds. Two of which Cotto was more than happy to give away by playing with Shane.

Mosley looked lost in that fight. Something that had absolutely nothing to do with age and a hell of alot to do with Miguel Cotto's strength and body punching.

[Xplosive]

Cotto was never in anything close to trouble in that fight and he won no more than four rounds. Two of which Cotto was more than happy to give away by playing with Shane.

Mosley looked lost in that fight. Something that had absolutely nothing to do with age and a hell of alot to do with Miguel Cotto's strength and body punching.

Gotta disagree with you. Some of it DID have to with Cotto, but alot had to do with age. Cotto was actually beating Shane to the punch, and looking faster. Granted, Cotto is quick, but he wouldnt have beaten a prime Shane to the punch like that IMO. Prime Mosley would have been a whole lot more active, woulda put together more combinations, and would have been harder for Cotto to hit. Dont get me wrong, Cotto still gives a prime Shane hell, but I think Mosley on his best way is a bit too quick for Cotto. In my humble opinion.

[valdosta]

Mosley looked old as hell against Cotto. Slower than normal and ponderous. I'd pick a prime Mosley to beat Cotto in a heartbeat. As it was Mosley won 4-5 rounds.

[Tam Tam]

Gotta disagree with you. Some of it DID have to with Cotto, but alot had to do with age. Cotto was actually beating Shane to the punch, and looking faster. Granted, Cotto is quick, but he wouldnt have beaten a prime Shane to the punch like that IMO. Prime Mosley would have been a whole lot more active, woulda put together more combinations, and would have been harder for Cotto to hit. Dont get me wrong, Cotto still gives a prime Shane hell, but I think Mosley on his best way is a bit too quick for Cotto. In my humble opinion.
I don't neccessarily think Cotto was beating Shane to the punch, in as muh as he was just getting off first and he made a conscious effort early in the fight to counter Mosley's jab. It was Miguel's timing more than anything, which once again exposed Shane's lack of true orthodox boxing technique.

I always viewed Shane as a skilled brawler. A guy who's speed was completely masking of the fact that he did not rely on a jab, a counter punch or movement to take full advantage of his gifts. He was an offensive fighter, with massive holes in his defense, bled from sloppy offensive technique. Given the right opponents, I believe those mistakes are going to be made when he was 25 or 35.

Shane was never a hard man to find and one thing he never took well, is a body shot and nobody has thrown them like Cotto in the past 20 years.

[ElTerriblee]

Both of :mj: ´czewskis losses.

[broadwayjoe]

Any fight where my favorite fighter lost.

agREED.

[Xplosive]

I don't neccessarily think Cotto was beating Shane to the punch, in as muh as he was just getting off first and he made a conscious effort early in the fight to counter Mosley's jab. It was Miguel's timing more than anything, which once again exposed Shane's lack of true orthodox boxing technique.

I always viewed Shane as a skilled brawler. A guy who's speed was completely masking of the fact that he did not rely on a jab, a counter punch or movement to take full advantage of his gifts. He was an offensive fighter, with massive holes in his defense, bled from sloppy offensive technique. Given the right opponents, I believe those mistakes are going to be made when he was 25 or 35.

Shane was never a hard man to find and one thing he never took well, is a body shot and nobody has thrown them like Cotto in the past 20 years.

I agree that Shane has always been a skilled brawler with speed. But its speed that was always his main asset, and its declined in recent years. Its not hard to do the math. An over the hill Shane was able to legitmately win 4 rounds against Cotto, its only stands to reason that a prime Mosley could have done better. It wouldnt have been as easy for Cotto to time a prime Shane, and with his jab I could see a prime Shane having the speed to counter over it with right hands. Prime Mosley beats Cotto by 7-5, or 8-4 decision, in my mind.

[broadwayjoe]

There are so many fights that fit in this topic...but here are some off the top of my head.

Holmes - ALi: Holmes was a great heavy, but a Prime Ali was the greatest heavy ever. Ali by decision in a good fight.
Berbick - Ali: Berbick is lucky to win a round before being stopped.
Norton - LeDoux: Official result was a draw, rather than a loss, but Norton would have killed LeDoux a few years earlier.
Frazier - Cummings: See Norton-LeDoux
Curry & Norris - Leonard: Norris was a good fighter, but not quite in the league of these two.
Camacho - Leonard: This fight would never happen with Leonard in his prime
Hatton - Tzysu: A prime Tzysu chops up Hatton.
Spinks - Holmes: A prime Holmes crushes Spinks without too much difficulty.
Tzysu - Chavez: Much more competitive than many would think, but Chavez gets the win.
Williams & McBride - Tyson: Tyson handles these two with ease, but he loses to Lewis and Holyfield in more competitive fights.
Tyson - Thomas: Don't know if Pinky gets the win, but a fight against a Prime Thomas would have been much more difficult for Tyson than the one that actually took place.
Qawi - Saad Muhammed: This fight would have been a war, but I would take Saad in his prime.
Norris - Mugabi: A prime "Beast" cracks Norris' China Chin.
Taylor - Hopkins: Prime Hopkins by a mile
Tarver/Johnson - Jones: Jones in a tough one against Tarver and with ease against Johnson

Sanders/Purity/Brewster vs. Klitschko - Oh, wait...Wlad was in his prime for those fights.:lol:

Also...

Toney, Byrd, Ruiz, etc... - Holyfield
Cooney - Lyle/Norton
Calzaghe - Hopkins
Mayweather - DLH
DLH - Whitaker
Trinidad - Whitaker
Stacy - Napoles
All of Aaron Pryor's losses
Laing - Duran
Hilton - Benitez
Marciano - Louis
Marciano - Charles

[LOK]

Prime DLH woulda murdered Pretty Boy. Even a shot DLH was a big task for the tip tapper.


lol big task?

Floyd clearly won and even stunned DLH.. who was much BIGGER

a prime DLH and Prime Floyd.. I think Floyd schools him

[Xplosive]

There are so many fights that fit in this topic...but here are some off the top of my head.

Holmes - ALi: Holmes was a great heavy, but a Prime Ali was the greatest heavy ever. Ali by decision in a good fight.
Berbick - Ali: Berbick is lucky to win a round before being stopped.
Norton - LeDoux: Official result was a draw, rather than a loss, but Norton would have killed LeDoux a few years earlier.
Frazier - Cummings: See Norton-LeDoux
Curry & Norris - Leonard: Norris was a good fighter, but not quite in the league of these two.
Camacho - Leonard: This fight would never happen with Leonard in his prime
Hatton - Tzysu: A prime Tzysu chops up Hatton.
Spinks - Holmes: A prime Holmes crushes Spinks without too much difficulty.
Tzysu - Chavez: Much more competitive than many would think, but Chavez gets the win.
Williams & McBride - Tyson: Tyson handles these two with ease, but he loses to Lewis and Holyfield in more competitive fights.
Tyson - Thomas: Don't know if Pinky gets the win, but a fight against a Prime Thomas would have been much more difficult for Tyson than the one that actually took place.
Qawi - Saad Muhammed: This fight would have been a war, but I would take Saad in his prime.
Norris - Mugabi: A prime "Beast" cracks Norris' China Chin.
Taylor - Hopkins: Prime Hopkins by a mile
Tarver/Johnson - Jones: Jones in a tough one against Tarver and with ease against Johnson

Sanders/Purity/Brewster vs. Klitschko - Oh, wait...Wlad was in his prime for those fights.:lol:

Also...

Toney, Byrd, Ruiz, etc... - Holyfield
Cooney - Lyle/Norton
Calzaghe - Hopkins
Mayweather - DLH
DLH - Whitaker
Trinidad - Whitaker
Stacy - Napoles
All of Aaron Pryor's losses
Laing - Duran
Hilton - Benitez
Marciano - Louis
Marciano - Charles

I would take Qawi over any Saad.

[broadwayjoe]

I would take Qawi over any Saad.

I like Qawi, but I think he gets a tad overrated sometimes. Saad was a better fighter earlier in his career than he was from the Qawi fights and after.

[Xplosive]

Adding a couple to the list:

Vargas-Mayorga: Prime Vargas would've handled Mayorga convincingly.

Hatton-Philips: I think a motivated late 90's Philips woulda knocked Ricky out. Hell, the 40 year old Philips had Hatton wobbled at one point.

Ouma-Bundrage: I dunno what the hell happened to Kassim, he burnt out so quickly. A few years ago he woulda handled K9 with ease.

Chavez-Randall: Prime Julio woulda stopped Randall late.

Vargas-Quartey: I think a more active, and younger Ike would have beaten Vargas, though not easily.

Johnston-Harris: Prime Stevie would've done a number on Viv. He also would've outboxed Edner Cherry very easily.

Lewis-Vitali: Lummox won the fight anyway, but a younger Lewis in better shape woulda destroyed the Tinman within 3 rounds and left no doubt.

Bowe-Golota: Golota had the tools to always give Bowe trouble, but I think the 92 Bowe would have eventually overwhelmed Golota and knocked him out.

Holy-Toney: I love James, but he would NOT have beaten a prime Holy at heavyweight.

[Xplosive]

I like Qawi, but I think he gets a tad overrated sometimes. Saad was a better fighter earlier in his career than he was from the Qawi fights and after.

True, but I think Qawi always had the chin to handle Saad's heat, and his strength and workrate would always be too much for Saad. Of course, we'll never know for sure.

Also, Qawi isnt overrated. He's hardly even talked about. Perhaps if you compare him to Frazier you're overrating him, but he was still one helluva fighter.

[broadwayjoe]

True, but I think Qawi always had the chin to handle Saad's heat, and his strength and workrate would always be too much for Saad. Of course, we'll never know for sure.

Also, Qawi isnt overrated. He's hardly even talked about. Perhaps if you compare him to Frazier you're overrating him, but he was still one helluva fighter.

I don't know about that. Marvin Johnson had the same kind of strength and workrate that Qawi did and Saad took care of him twice. And Saad had ridiculous stamina in the championship rounds.

Like you said, we'll never know, but I do know Saad was a much better and tougher fighter earlier in his career than he was at the time of Qawi fights and after and it certainly isn't a stretch to see Saad's performance improve significantly if the fight took place while he was still at his best.

[Xplosive]

I don't know about that. Marvin Johnson had the same kind of strength and workrate that Qawi did and Saad took care of him twice. And Saad had ridiculous stamina in the championship rounds.

Like you said, we'll never know, but I do know Saad was a much better and tougher fighter earlier in his career than he was at the time of Qawi fights and after and it certainly isn't a stretch to see Saad's performance improve significantly if the fight took place while he was still at his best.

Marvin Johnson didnt have Qawi's chin though.

[Jake]

Vargas-Mayorga: Prime Vargas would've handled Mayorga convincingly.

Chavez-Randall: Prime Julio woulda stopped Randall late.

Holy-Toney: I love James, but he would NOT have beaten a prime Holy at heavyweight.
I don't necessarily agree or disagree with any of these, but in each fight, you can make a case where the victor was no closer to his prime than the loser. Randall's the only dicey one - but even he was fairly deep into his career by the time he fought Chavez, just that he was a well-kept secret.

[broadwayjoe]

Marvin Johnson didnt have Qawi's chin though.

True, but Johnson was not exactly a cream puff, either. Qawi's chin might allow him to survive where Johnson was stopped, but I don't see him outtoughing a prime Saad down the stretch. I think Saad's deteriorating physical skills made Qawi look like more of a monster than he really was. Don't forget...right after the Qawi fights, Saad was stoppped in 3 by a light-hitting journeyman in Eric Winbush, who had a total of 3 stoppage wins heading into the Saad fight.

[D MAN]

Vargas-Quartey: I think a more active, and younger Ike would have beaten Vargas, though not easily.



Disagree

Both guys were PRIME for this fight, and Vargas boxed the shit out of Quartey.

[Mitchell Kane]

Disagree

Both guys were PRIME for this fight, and Vargas boxed the shit out of Quartey.

I don't know, the fight was at 154 and Quartey had become very inactive after the Lopez fight.

I'm not sure it changes the outcome, or that Quartey was that far removed from his prime, but I wouldn't say he was in it.

[Mitchell Kane]

I don't necessarily agree or disagree with any of these, but in each fight, you can make a case where the victor was no closer to his prime than the loser. Randall's the only dicey one - but even he was fairly deep into his career by the time he fought Chavez, just that he was a well-kept secret.

I think Toney-Holyfield at heavyweight may depend on when you think both started taking steroids and whether they'd both be allowed to take them for their mythical match-up.:lol:

For this exercise, though, perhaps you could just take their cruiserweight versions.

[Xplosive]

Disagree

Both guys were PRIME for this fight, and Vargas boxed the shit out of Quartey.

Look at the Quartey from the Vargas fight, the Quartey of the mid 90's and tell me there the same fighter. There not.

Watch the Quartey that KO'd Espana. THATS a prime Quartey.

[whiskey]

Look at the Quartey from the Vargas fight, the Quartey of the mid 90's and tell me there the same fighter. There not.

Watch the Quartey that KO'd Espana. THATS a prime Quartey.

That Quartey was fighting Espana, not Vargas. Also it was at 147.

[Xplosive]

I don't necessarily agree or disagree with any of these, but in each fight, you can make a case where the victor was no closer to his prime than the loser. Randall's the only dicey one - but even he was fairly deep into his career by the time he fought Chavez, just that he was a well-kept secret.

Toney was past it as well, but James' prime was at 160-168. Had he moved up to heavy, or even cruiser in his prime, I cant see him beating a prime Holy.

As for Vargas-Mayorga, Vargas was ALOT more past his prime than Mayorga. Mayorga's prime ended in 2004 when Tito beat his ass. Nando's prime ended in 2000 when Tito beat his ass. I think the first Mosley fight took ALL the rest outta Vargas, cause in the Mosley rematch he was COMPLETELY shot.

Take the 00 Vargas vs the 03 Mayorga, and I'll take Nando by clear decision.

And it COULD be argued that Randall on the night he beat Chavez ALWAYS gives Julio hell, but I'd take the Chavez that beat Taylor, and Mayweather to grind down Randall and either stop him, or win a UD.

[Xplosive]

Heres some fights where the results WOULDNT change if the guy was prime:

Mosley-Vargas: Even though Vargas was more past it then Shane, even at thier respective primes I'd still pick Mosley. He would have ALWAYS had a big handspeed edge on Vargas, and it would have been the differance.

Lewis-Holy: As much as I hate Lummox, he'd be style problem for even a prime Evander. Maybe a prime Holy beats him, but I think Lummox still beats him by close decision.

Tyson-Holmes: ALOT of people will disagree with this one, but I dont care. Tyson KO's even a prime Holmes, it would just take longer. Snipes, and Shavers had Holmes almost out in his prime, but those guys werent the finishers Tyson was. I say Tyson KO's a prime Holmes in 7-8 rounds, but I'm sure many will disagree.

DLH-Vargas: Even though Vargas was past it when DLH beat him, Oscar was slightly past it himself. Prime for prime, Goldie still wins.

Jones-Hill: Virgil was past it, but it wouldnt have mattered. Roy easily beats him at any point in Hill's career.

Others?

[Tam Tam]

That Quartey was fighting Espana, not Vargas. Also it was at 147.

Your second statement is kind of the point, Scotch.

[Xplosive]

I dont think it was the weight that hurt Quartey against Vargas, it was in the inactivity.

[Joe King]

Shane looked gassed during the middle rounds but he came on strong and Cotto was the one looking faded in last few rounds.

[Tam Tam]

I dont think it was the weight that hurt Quartey against Vargas, it was in the inactivity.
Considering tht Quartey was a fighter who's strength was almost as important as his jab, I'd say it played a huge role in the fight.

[Octopus]

Hilarious out of all the picks for Hopkins over Calzaghe:lol:

[Xplosive]

Hilarious out of all the picks for Hopkins over Calzaghe:lol:

And whats so hilarious about it? Joe beat a 43 year old, semi-retired Hopkins... and though he won it clearly, Hopkins did have some success. Whats so hilarious to suggest that an active, younger Hopkins of 7 years ago beats Joe?

Prime Hopkins owns Joe.

I'm sure after Calz beats RJ, they'll be people saying that Joe beats a prime Roy as well. Which would be hilarious.

[Bob N. Weave]

Heres some fights where the results WOULDNT change if the guy was prime:

Mosley-Vargas: Even though Vargas was more past it then Shane, even at thier respective primes I'd still pick Mosley. He would have ALWAYS had a big handspeed edge on Vargas, and it would have been the differance.

Lewis-Holy: As much as I hate Lummox, he'd be style problem for even a prime Evander. Maybe a prime Holy beats him, but I think Lummox still beats him by close decision.

Tyson-Holmes: ALOT of people will disagree with this one, but I dont care. Tyson KO's even a prime Holmes, it would just take longer. Snipes, and Shavers had Holmes almost out in his prime, but those guys werent the finishers Tyson was. I say Tyson KO's a prime Holmes in 7-8 rounds, but I'm sure many will disagree.

DLH-Vargas: Even though Vargas was past it when DLH beat him, Oscar was slightly past it himself. Prime for prime, Goldie still wins.

Jones-Hill: Virgil was past it, but it wouldnt have mattered. Roy easily beats him at any point in Hill's career.

Others?

Fuck no. A prime Tyson couldn't beat weak ass Douglas.

[Octopus]

And whats so hilarious about it? Joe beat a 43 year old, semi-retired Hopkins... and though he won it clearly, Hopkins did have some success. Whats so hilarious to suggest that an active, younger Hopkins of 7 years ago beats Joe?

Prime Hopkins owns Joe.

I'm sure after Calz beats RJ, they'll be people saying that Joe beats a prime Roy as well. Which would be hilarious.

You also forget that Calzaghe was old and past HIS PRIME himself! Oh I forgot,now that Bhop actually lost to him,he was definatley "Too Old" and "Semi Retired":crying:

Boxing fans at their best right their:lol:

Calzaghe has never been close to ever losing a fight. Sure his comp was never that great for the early part of his career. But Calzaghe would of fucked any version of Hopkins up. You also seem to forget that Hopkins was trying to quit like a bitch,not once but twice in their fight. Oh that's right,he was "43" and "Semi Retired":old:

It's ridiculous how many boxing fans still underrate just how great Calzaghe really is.

[The Genius]

I think Holmes beats Tyson prime for prime.

[Pascals Wager]

Any fight where my favorite fighter lost.

Kinda what it comes down to in a lot of cases...

[Tam Tam]

You also forget that Calzaghe was old and past HIS PRIME himself! Oh I forgot,now that Bhop actually lost to him,he was definatley "Too Old" and "Semi Retired":crying:

Boxing fans at their best right their:lol:

Calzaghe has never been close to ever losing a fight. Sure his comp was never that great for the early part of his career. But Calzaghe would of fucked any version of Hopkins up. You also seem to forget that Hopkins was trying to quit like a bitch,not once but twice in their fight. Oh that's right,he was "43" and "Semi Retired":old:

It's ridiculous how many boxing fans still underrate just how great Calzaghe really is.
Im not sure if this is a deliberate attempt to sound like a fool, but just in case its not; do you understand how foolish you sound right here?

Calzaghe didn't even fuck the final version of Bernard Hopkins up, so what grounds is there to believe he'd do even better with a physically superior Hopkins?

And plenty will argue that not only did Calzaghe come close to losing this fight (or that he DID lose it), but the argument for Robin Reid is also a popular one. Perhaps some revision onthese topics are neccessary before we move forward.

[Mitchell Kane]

Where is Calzaghe-Hopkins Prime vs. Prime happening...at super middleweight or light heavyweight?

[Tam Tam]

Where is Calzaghe-Hopkins Prime vs. Prime happening...at super middleweight or light heavyweight?
Perhaps the statement should be along the lines of "more prime vs more prime", otherwise the details of this contest and the process of actually manouvering each combatant into the ring would prove most difficult.

[KaukipRrr]

And whats so hilarious about it? Joe beat a 43 year old, semi-retired Hopkins... and though he won it clearly, Hopkins did have some success. Whats so hilarious to suggest that an active, younger Hopkins of 7 years ago beats Joe?

Prime Hopkins owns Joe.

I'm sure after Calz beats RJ, they'll be people saying that Joe beats a prime Roy as well. Which would be hilarious.

True Roy haters would maybe say as such,..but even Calzaghe admits that a peak Roy was his superior.

But in regards to the extremely overrated Bernard "Greater than Marvin Hagler" Hopkins, if he was more 'active' in fights, he would in turn leave himself more 'open'..for counter punches, which would be a DREAM COME TRUE to all who fight him these days..........as it is, this 'version', backs up for entire fights, and when his opponent HAS TO LEAD to MAKE THE FIGHT, he or she MUST walk in to the fringe of his timing and clinching range, over and over again... Hopkins can fight into his 50's with this cowardly conservative style, he's an overrated piece of eye searing, spoiling shit, who only ever 'stalked' or 'pressured' real middleweights his entire career, if he fights again, hopefully his opponent, stands completely still, so the referee motions Hopkins to come in and fight or face disqualification :crafty:.

[Xplosive]

Where is Calzaghe-Hopkins Prime vs. Prime happening...at super middleweight or light heavyweight?

If Hopkins had moved up and fought Joe at 168 in 2002.

[KaukipRrr]

If Hopkins had moved up and fought Joe at 168 in 2002.

It's funny that he had that very oppurtunity,.. but what happenned?..:boohoo:

I wonder why not only does it seem that Americans cannot bare Hopkins losing, and in thier minds, think that Hopkins is undefeated since Roy,.. but he is also granted immunity for ducking crucial fights aswell, despite being the most reknown withdrawing, hostage holding, fight sabotaging, low-balling arsehole, whoever probably lived when it comes to negotiations.

[Attraction]

judah vs junior

bradley vs junior

[Xplosive]

judah vs junior

bradley vs junior

:laughing::laughing::laughing:

[TheBoxingFan]

William Joppy vs. Roberto Duran

Macho Camacho vs. Sugar Ray

[Erratic]

What about Marco Antonio Barrera-Juan Manuel Marquez?

Both guys were up there in years when they fought. Barrera had more wear-and-tear on him, and the fight was close.

I think the fight always would've been a very close decision. What if they had fought around 2002 or so?

[Joe King]

I think Holmes beats Tyson prime for prime.

Shit. Holmes was winning 3-0 before being KTFO.

[lb 4 lb]

I don't neccessarily think Cotto was beating Shane to the punch, in as muh as he was just getting off first and he made a conscious effort early in the fight to counter Mosley's jab. It was Miguel's timing more than anything, which once again exposed Shane's lack of true orthodox boxing technique.

I always viewed Shane as a skilled brawler. A guy who's speed was completely masking of the fact that he did not rely on a jab, a counter punch or movement to take full advantage of his gifts. He was an offensive fighter, with massive holes in his defense, bled from sloppy offensive technique. Given the right opponents, I believe those mistakes are going to be made when he was 25 or 35.

Shane was never a hard man to find and one thing he never took well, is a body shot and nobody has thrown them like Cotto in the past 20 years.
I agree with everything you said. Only thing I have doubt about is the fact that Shane doesn't take body shots well. First of all, who does? Second of all I don't recall him ever being dropped by one and only hurt for sure by one.

[Mitchell Kane]

I agree with everything you said. Only thing I have doubt about is the fact that Shane doesn't take body shots well. First of all, who does? Second of all I don't recall him ever being dropped by one and only hurt for sure by one.

Vernon Forrest hurt him to the body...which he blamed on hernia surgery.

[Neil]

What about Marco Antonio Barrera-Juan Manuel Marquez?

Both guys were up there in years when they fought. Barrera had more wear-and-tear on him, and the fight was close.

I think the fight always would've been a very close decision. What if they had fought around 2002 or so?

marquez has slipped a lot from about 6 or 7 years ago. i think he was always naturally bigger and a sharper puncher than barrera.

[Tam Tam]

Agreed. But he wasn't quicker and nor did he fight with a better motor. I think those are the only two reasons Barrera lost to Marquez, even if the fight is always going to be razor thin.

[Alabama_Man]

Montell Griffen - Roy Jones Jr. II

[lb 4 lb]

Vernon Forrest hurt him to the body...which he blamed on hernia surgery.Everyone knows this, however, screaming out in pain once in over 40 fights from a well placed body shot doesn't mean the guy can't take it to the body.

To go by that logic we could surmise that since Forrest also dropped Shane in that fight, that Shane can't take it to the chin either.

[Explosivo]

I haven't read a single post,...so I am not being led here.


1. Rocky Marciano vs. Joe Louis--Joe would have butchered Rock "prime for prime".

2. Aaron Pryor vs. Antonio Cervantes--This may be an unpopular pick,...but Cervantes in his prime would have outpointed Pryor ,...imho.

3. Terry Norris vs. SR Leonard--Ray would have taken his ass out inside of seven rounds "prime for prime".

4. Larry Holmes vs. Muhammad Ali--Total decision fight here....with Ali the clear winner "prime for prime".

5. SR Leonard vs. Marvin Hagler--I still thought he won close,....but "prime for prime" at middleweight, Marvin stops him late.

6. Michael Spinks vs. Larry Holmes-- Holmes was definitely on the downside, yet we all thought that he wouldn't have to worry 'bout Michael.
"prime for prime"....Larry administers a PAINFUL boxing lesson, en route to a PAINFUL late round TKO.

7. Oscar De La Hoya vs. Julio Cesar Chavez--Four years prior to their 1997 fight, prime for prime JCC would have raped him.

8. Antonio Tarver vs. Roy Jones-- The weight gain/loss hampered him along with his disinterest and his age.
"Prime for Prime" Roy Jones plays with, and destroys this guy like he is nothing.

All I can think of at this moment:stir:

[Tam Tam]

I haven't read a single post,...so I am not being led here.


1. Rocky Marciano vs. Joe Louis--Joe would have butchered Rock "prime for prime".

2. Aaron Pryor vs. Antonio Cervantes--This may be an unpopular pick,...but Cervantes in his prime would have outpointed Pryor ,...imho.

3. Terry Norris vs. SR Leonard--Ray would have taken his ass out inside of seven rounds "prime for prime".

4. Larry Holmes vs. Muhammad Ali--Total decision fight here....with Ali the clear winner "prime for prime".

5. SR Leonard vs. Marvin Hagler--I still thought he won close,....but "prime for prime" at middleweight, Marvin stops him late.

6. Michael Spinks vs. Larry Holmes-- Holmes was definitely on the downside, yet we all thought that he wouldn't have to worry 'bout Michael.
"prime for prime"....Larry administers a PAINFUL boxing lesson, en route to a PAINFUL late round TKO.

7. Oscar De La Hoya vs. Julio Cesar Chavez--Four years prior to their 1997 fight, prime for prime JCC would have raped him.

8. Antonio Tarver vs. Roy Jones-- The weight gain/loss hampered him along with his disinterest and his age.
"Prime for Prime" Roy Jones plays with, and destroys this guy like he is nothing.

All I can think of at this moment:stir:

De La Hoya beats the 1993 version of Chavez bad.

[Explosivo]

De La Hoya beats the 1993 version of Chavez bad.


I have to respectfully disagree with you there.

Hell, JCC gave him hell in '98.

And I was wrong.....ODLH beat JCC in '96, not '97.

Chavez at his prime would have beaten the living HELL out of DLH at any weight between 130 and 140

[Tam Tam]

I have to respectfully disagree with you there.

Hell, JCC gave him hell in '98.

And I was wrong.....ODLH beat JCC in '96, not '97.

Chavez at his prime would have beaten the living HELL out of DLH at any weight between 130 and 140
He gave Oscar trouble in 1998 because Oscar fought a stupid fight, unlike the first time they got together.

Chavez was very much on his way down in 1993 and would be beaten three times over the next year.

And yes, Chavez probably would have beaten Oscar between 130 and 140, but not in 1993 he wouldn't have. Besides Chavez wasn't prime @ 140 anyway.

[Explosivo]

He gave Oscar trouble in 1998 because Oscar fought a stupid fight, unlike the first time they got together.

Chavez was very much on his way down in 1993 and would be beaten three times over the next year.

And yes, Chavez probably would have beaten Oscar between 130 and 140, but not in 1993 he wouldn't have. Besides Chavez wasn't prime @ 140 anyway.

I will agree with you on that. Good post.:bears:

[Xplosive]

Shit. Holmes was winning 3-0 before being KTFO.

:laughing::laughing:The hell he was!

[Erratic]

DLH probably would've always given Chavez a good fight, although I have serious doubts he'd win. I'd make Chavez the slight favorite.

Where do we match them up? The 1995 DLH at 135 against the 1987 Chavez? Or DLH in 1996/97 at 140 versus the Chavez of the late 80s/early 90s at 140?

As Tam said earlier, Chavez wasn't quite the same at 140 as he was in lower weight classes. He probably peaked in the Rosario fight @ 135. By the time DLH had his last fight @ 140 against MAGO, he had gotten more experience and was also probably more comfortable at the weight than he was @ 135.

[Erratic]

I don't think prime Holmes or prime Foreman loses to Holyfield.

[joony]

I don't think prime Holmes or prime Foreman loses to Holyfield.

not sure about foreman.

i'd pick holmes to beat holyfield on points.

[joony]

duran beats benitez at 140 or 147
morales beats david diaz in a similar fashion to when he beat famosito
tyson clocks lewis in 5
hopkins beats the SHIT outta taylor
hopkins beats calzaghe clearly
ray leonard KTFOs terry norris in a brutal fashion