Is there any doubt?

[Anthony]

That Griffen is Elite? He isnt the best in the world, but he can be competative and beat some of the top fighters in the world. Dana must be really proud of what he has done with this kid. Took a nobody from some TV show and made him into one of the best fighters on the scene. I am not really a huge Forrest fan, but he impresses me with every fight. That being said, i think Jackson might have taken him lightly, But with Jackson's skill, and experience, I didnt think Taken Forrest lightly would totally backfire on him.

[TKO]

Griffin hasn't got the silky skills but there is no doubt he is an elite fighter.

I actually like watching the guy I have done since his fight against that Bonner? guy on UFC 1.

[steve_dave]

He can hang with the best, that's for sure. Makes you wonder how good an "elite" light heavyweight in the UFC is though, IMO.

[TKO]

He can hang with the best, that's for sure. Makes you wonder how good an "elite" light heavyweight in the UFC is though, IMO.

Compared to....?

[mexican wedding shirt]

Griffin hasn't got the silky skills but there is no doubt he is an elite fighter.

I actually like watching the guy I have done since his fight against that Bonner? guy on UFC 1.

TKO - Griffin wasn't a fighter when UFC 1 happened. UFC 1 was ages ago, that was Royce Gracie time.

Godfather - I agree with you 100%. I didn't used to like Griffin for some reason, but I am warming to him now.

And like you, I think Rampage took him lightly. Rampage looked lethargic and disinterested, there is no doubt about it.

However, like you I also thought a not-at-the-top-of-his-game Rampage would still be too much for Forrest. Obviously not.

[TKO]

TKO - Griffin wasn't a fighter when UFC 1 happened. UFC 1 was ages ago, that was Royce Gracie time.

Godfather - I agree with you 100%. I didn't used to like Griffin for some reason, but I am warming to him now.

And like you, I think Rampage took him lightly. Rampage looked lethargic and disinterested, there is no doubt about it.

However, like you I also thought a not-at-the-top-of-his-game Rampage would still be too much for Forrest. Obviously not.

I was talking about TUF 1.

[Hanz]

For some reason, I'm interested in Griffin/Liddell. I just wonder if Liddell, if he can't land his big punch, can he go 5 full rounds with a guy 10 years younger and in better cardio shape? I say Griffin wins by decision.

[TFK]

Griffin is definitely at or near the top of the 205 Rankings. But he could beat Fedor and still people would shit on him, just because he's a TUF fighter.

I'd pick him to beat Liddell as well.

There are some great matchups at 205. Between Griffin, Rampage, Liddell, Wandy, Soak-a-Jew, Jardine, Machida, Evans and Shogun, UFC could do a great tournament throughout the next year or so. Plus if Anderson Silva and Rich Franklin stay at 205, that makes the division even more stacked.

TFK

[LOK]

I think he'd beat chuck

[Anthony]

I think he'd beat chuckI think i think that too

[steve_dave]

Compared to....?

Any other sport.

MMA is the easiest sport to get good at, really fast, in the world.

[jarhead]

Forrest Griffen is an Elite Fighter. Anyone that can be Shogun and Rampage is elite. And its not like he's landing a lucky punch like Serra. He came from TUF, sure. But he has improved and matuered as a fighter ten folds since then. Liddell has a punchers chance against Forrest, but Forrest is smart enough to get Liddell into the late rounds.

[*Z*]

Any other sport.

MMA is the easiest sport to get good at, really fast, in the world.


You should try it then. If it's so easy. A big tough guy like you should be champ in no time. LOL!

You just hate MMA, admit it.

[Bob N. Weave]

You should try it then. If it's so easy. A big tough guy like you should be champ in no time. LOL!

You just hate MMA, admit it.

He has no basis to back up his argument. Just ignore him.

[Azazel]

Let's not get ridiculous, MMA is still a new sport and quite easy to get through compared to other major sports, in a few years, if the popularity don't die, the caliber of athletes will be much higher.

[TKO]

While I don't think the MMA guys are as skillful as lets say, boxers.

I don't think anyone could do it. The guys that are new to MMA have been fighting in some form most of their lives.

I couldn't imagine just anyone being able to deal with a guy like Ricardo Almedias
jujitsu

[BigJohn619]

While I don't think the MMA guys are as skillful as lets say, boxers.

I don't think anyone could do it. The guys that are new to MMA have been fighting in some form most of their lives.

I couldn't imagine just anyone being able to deal with a guy like Ricardo Almedias
jujitsu

You mean the guy who lost to Cote the other day?
The guy who jumps guard in a UFC match? :lol:

[TKO]

You mean the guy who lost to Cote the other day?
The guy who jumps guard in a UFC match? :lol:

Yeah what are you laughing that he almost pulled off a submission in doing so, Ricardo's jujitsu is awesome - it's a shame he can't make it work in the cage

[BigJohn619]

Yeah what are you laughing that he almost pulled off a submission in doing so, Ricardo's jujitsu is awesome - it's a shame he can't make it work in the cage
I don't find jumping guard in the UFC very smart at all to be honest.
Almost doesnt count :nono:

[TKO]

I don't find jumping guard in the UFC very smart at all to be honest.
Almost doesnt count :nono:

It's high risk with a winning reward. How can that not count.

[LOK]

Forrest Griffen is an Elite Fighter. Anyone that can be Shogun and Rampage is elite. And its not like he's landing a lucky punch like Serra. He came from TUF, sure. But he has improved and matuered as a fighter ten folds since then. Liddell has a punchers chance against Forrest, but Forrest is smart enough to get Liddell into the late rounds.


if he can actually "BE" them... then he really is amazing

[BigJohn619]

It's high risk with a winning reward. How can that not count.
How many times has it actually worked in the UFC?

[TKO]

How many times has it actually worked in the UFC?

I don't know I haven't seen every fight :lol: The majority of the time these high risks moves do not actually work.

But an example is the flying heel hook that beat Silva - Silva was kicking that guy around the ring until the guy took a huge risk.

If Silva had blocked and or got out of the way then that guy would have looked pretty stupid and end up being grounded and pounded out.

[steve_dave]

You should try it then. If it's so easy. A big tough guy like you should be champ in no time. LOL!

You just hate MMA, admit it.

Who says I can do it?

But I would certainly win a title in MMA before I would win the World Series, Super Bowl, Stanley Cup or boxing championship. Lets be serious here.

These guys are not top level athletes, in comparison.

[steve_dave]

He has no basis to back up his argument. Just ignore him.

Sure I do.

[steve_dave]

Let's not get ridiculous, MMA is still a new sport and quite easy to get through compared to other major sports, in a few years, if the popularity don't die, the caliber of athletes will be much higher.

This is certainly a fair statement.

[TFK]

While I don't think the MMA guys are as skillful as lets say, boxers.




MMA fighters are much more skilled then boxers, it's not even close. There's just so much more involved in MMA then boxing.

TFK

[steve_dave]

MMA fighters are much more skilled then boxers, it's not even close. There's just so much more involved in MMA then boxing.

TFK

:lol:

[TFK]

:lol:


While you're here, why not sticky the July P4P thread?

TFK

[steve_dave]

While you're here, why not sticky the July P4P thread?

TFK

Done.

[mexican wedding shirt]

MMA fighters are much more skilled then boxers, it's not even close. There's just so much more involved in MMA then boxing.

TFK

Deary me :lol:

[Breeze]

He has elite fighter intangibilites like toughness, heart and resourcefulness.

I dont consider him elite at striking, grappling or any other skill however, average at best.

Somehow he combines his average at best skillset and elite intangibles and manages to have success with it.

[TFK]

He has elite fighter intangibilites like toughness, heart and resourcefulness.

I dont consider him elite at striking, grappling or any other skill however, average at best.

Somehow he combines his average at best skillset and elite intangibles and manages to have success with it.


With Forrest, the whole is greater then the sum of it's parts. And that makes him Elite.

TFK

[Anthony]

Deary me :lol:
I agree with him. MMA fighters can be more skilled than boxers. Someone Like Anderson Silva, or Fedor, or BJ are more skilled than any boxer. The amount of fighting styles they know is ridiculous. And combining all those styles together to win a fight is amazing. But of course, guys like Tank Abbot and Kimbo arent as skilled as boxers. But if you are well rounded in MMA, you definately have more skill than just a boxer.

[Gh77]

MMA fighters are much more skilled then boxers, it's not even close. There's just so much more involved in MMA then boxing.

TFK

MMA INOLVES more skills than boxing. Theoretically, it contains everything in boxing, kickboxing, wrestling, jujitsu, etc. so there are more skill sets used. However, there are few in the history of the sport that can actually use all or many of those skill sets well. There are many boxers that can use all or most boxing techniques very proficiently. Regardless of what some posters on this site say, techniques do advance over time, and boxing is a much older sport than MMA.

[Anthony]

MMA INOLVES more skills than boxing. Theoretically, it contains everything in boxing, kickboxing, wrestling, jujitsu, etc. so there are more skill sets used. However, there are few in the history of the sport that can actually use all or many of those skill sets well. There are many boxers that can use all or most boxing techniques very proficiently. Regardless of what some posters on this site say, techniques do advance over time, and boxing is a much older sport than MMA.
Boxing isnt older than Wrestling however

[mexican wedding shirt]

Godfather, no - what you're saying is they have more "skills" with an S. Obviously given the multi discipline nature of MMA.

But a world class boxer's skill in striking is so ludicrously highly tuned, there is no comparison.

Chuck Lidell has had a lot of success in MMA on the world stage, he is utterly unskilled compared to a good boxer.

[Hut*Hut]

MMA fighters are much more skilled then boxers, it's not even close. There's just so much more involved in MMA then boxing.

TFK

jack of all master of none. And its not like nothing is lost in the boxing department in translation to MMA. Infighting for instance is completely absent, which happens to probably be the most skill intensive part of boxing.

[Trplsec]

Skill is such a subjective term. But personally, I think the top MMA guys like Spider, Fedor and Penn are more skilled than top boxers.

Seriously, when you look at a guy like Penn who is a black belt in Jiu-Jitsu and strikes as well as most boxers, how can you not admire that 'skill'.

The sport has evolved. It's not the same sport that, in the early days, matched guys from different combat sports. You know longer see the sumo wrestler versus the kickboxer.

Today's MMA guys are becoming more and more diverse in their abilities. Fore example, the Jiu-Jitsu that helped a guy like Royce Gracie submit dudes that out weighed him by 50 or 60 pounds is no longer a limited practice. It's incorporated into most fighter's training.

Personally, I think that well-rounded MMA fighters are among the most 'skilled' athletes around.

[Trplsec]

jack of all master of none. And its not like nothing is lost in the boxing department in translation to MMA. Infighting for instance is completely absent, which happens to probably be the most skill intensive part of boxing.


That's nonsense.

First, how do you call a guy like BJ Penn 'a master of none'? The guy is among the most accomplished Jiu-Jitsu practicioners in the world. It's more like jack of all trades and master of a few.

Second, I would go out on a limb and say that muay thai boxing skills are as difficult and dangerous as boxing infighting. The idea of knees and elbows during clinches scares me more personally.

Likewise, the balance, leverage and limb positioning involved in grappling in an MMA fight requires more skill than meets the eyes.

[LOK]

I have trained in both MMA and boxing and I personally know guys at the top of the game in both..

I will say.. MMA is kinda more "bummy" to me..

guys can get decent or even good in MMA with good training..

guys that want to box.. a lot fail.. boxing is hard.. some guys just can't take it

[steve_dave]

The best boxers are better at boxing than the best Mixed Martial Artists are at MMA.

That's about as simple as I can put it.

The best boxers in the world, for the most part, are way more skilled.

[steve_dave]

Skill is such a subjective term. But personally, I think the top MMA guys like Spider, Fedor and Penn are more skilled than top boxers.

Seriously, when you look at a guy like Penn who is a black belt in Jiu-Jitsu and strikes as well as most boxers, how can you not admire that 'skill'.

The sport has evolved. It's not the same sport that, in the early days, matched guys from different combat sports. You know longer see the sumo wrestler versus the kickboxer.

Today's MMA guys are becoming more and more diverse in their abilities. Fore example, the Jiu-Jitsu that helped a guy like Royce Gracie submit dudes that out weighed him by 50 or 60 pounds is no longer a limited practice. It's incorporated into most fighter's training.

Personally, I think that well-rounded MMA fighters are among the most 'skilled' athletes around.

:lol::lol::atu:

[Trplsec]

:lol::lol::atu:


You're laughing but do you care to tell me what in Penn's punching technique is clearly inferior to most boxers?

Didn't think so.

[Trplsec]

The best boxers are better at boxing than the best Mixed Martial Artists are at MMA.

That's about as simple as I can put it.

The best boxers in the world, for the most part, are way more skilled.


Perhaps, but I would bet you this: Throw Anderson Silva in a boxing ring with any 185 pound boxer in the world and he would not embarass himself. Now throw that same boxer in an MMA cage with Silva and they get ridiculously owned in a hurry.

Now tell me who's more skilled?

[steve_dave]

Perhaps, but I would bet you this: Throw Anderson Silva in a boxing ring with any 185 pound boxer in the world and he would not embarass himself. Now throw that same boxer in an MMA cage with Silva and they get ridiculously owned in a hurry.

Now tell me who's more skilled?

How do you know Silva wouldn't embarrass himself? I think he would for sure.

[steve_dave]

You're laughing but do you care to tell me what in Penn's punching technique is clearly inferior to most boxers?

Didn't think so.

He's stiff and doesn't get full extension on his shots. Out-boxing Sherk, who is garbage, means nothing.

[steve_dave]

I would also like to note that Silva is one of two or three guys who is actually an elite level athlete in the UFC.

[Gh77]

The best boxers are better at boxing than the best Mixed Martial Artists are at MMA.

That's about as simple as I can put it.

The best boxers in the world, for the most part, are way more skilled.

This is what I was saying, but that doesn't make MMA a shitty sport, it's still very young...

[mexican wedding shirt]

:lol:

I like Penn, but he has very, very basic boxing, and that goes for actual punching technique and also boxing skill and ability.

He would get embarrassed in a boxing ring, so would silva.

Silva's overall athletic ability and striking by MMA standards are top notch, but his punching is nothing special at all compared to any boxer on the world stage.

[valdosta]

Some of Silva's biggest weapons are knee's,elbows and the thai clinch. As a straight up boxer? The guy would get owned against any top 10 guy at 175 or 200 depending on which he could make.

BTW-Anderson Silva has 2 boxing matches and is 1-1. If he thought he could have made it boxing he would have. I imagine getting KO'ed in 2 rounds in his first fight had him looking for a new job.

http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=152826&cat=boxer

[Trplsec]

:lol:

I like Penn, but he has very, very basic boxing, and that goes for actual punching technique and also boxing skill and ability.

He would get embarrassed in a boxing ring, so would silva.

Silva's overall athletic ability and striking by MMA standards are top notch, but his punching is nothing special at all compared to any boxer on the world stage.


I disagree. I think Silva's athletic ability and reflexes combined with fundamental boxing skill would allow him to perform well among average boxers at 185 pounds. I don't think he could best the Calzaghes or Dawsons of the world, but he wouldn't embarass himself.

On the other hand, do you doubt for a second the Joe Calzaghe would get owned quickly in an MMA ring with Silva?

Of the two choices, Calzaghe getting embarassed in an MMA cage is the far more likely to happen.

As far as Penn goes, I will go back to what I originally said, he strikes as well as most boxers his weight. He doesn't have the overall boxing ability but his strikes are fast, effective and sharp.

[valdosta]

Besides Anderson Silva failing in boxing here is another 1...

http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=256828&cat=boxer

Pulver's split decision was actually on ESPN. he should have lost. The funny thing is that was against a LOW level boxer. Some people need to get real. These MMA guys would get absolutely toyed with at the top level, are you kidding me.

[mexican wedding shirt]

I disagree. I think Silva's athletic ability and reflexes combined with fundamental boxing skill would allow him to perform well among average boxers at 185 pounds. I don't think he could best the Calzaghes or Dawsons of the world, but he wouldn't embarass himself.

On the other hand, do you doubt for a second the Joe Calzaghe would get owned quickly in an MMA ring with Silva?

Of the two choices, Calzaghe getting embarassed in an MMA cage is the far more likely to happen.

As far as Penn goes, I will go back to what I originally said, he strikes as well as most boxers his weight. He doesn't have the overall boxing ability but his strikes are fast, effective and sharp.

http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=152826&cat=boxer

[valdosta]

http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=152826&cat=boxer

I beat you to it :lol: look up a couple of posts.

[joony]

Besides Anderson Silva failing in boxing here is another 1...

http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=256828&cat=boxer

Pulver's split decision was actually on ESPN. he should have lost. The funny thing is that was against a LOW level boxer. Some people need to get real. These MMA guys would get absolutely toyed with at the top level, are you kidding me.

yea i saw that fight. he got dropped.

[Anthony]

Skill is Skill.

Put the top MMA Guy, (Fedor)
In with a prime (Lennox or Ali)

Let them fight using only thier skills. No weapons. No Low Blows, Illegal Tactics.

Lennox and ALi get beat Fedor has more skill than them. They may be more skilled in boxing. But thats just ONE skill. Elite MMA guys have MORE than ONE skill. Therefore, Elite MMA guys are more skilled in the Craft of fighting.

[Trplsec]

Skill is Skill.

Put the top MMA Guy, (Fedor)
In with a prime (Lennox or Ali)

Let them fight using only thier skills. No weapons. No Low Blows, Illegal Tactics.

Lennox and ALi get beat Fedor has more skill than them. They may be more skilled in boxing. But thats just ONE skill. Elite MMA guys have MORE than ONE skill. Therefore, Elite MMA guys are more skilled in the Craft of fighting.

And that's what everyone tends to overlook. A couple of guys have thrown out the boxing records of Pulver of Silva, but overlook the fact that any boxing skill they have is just a small piece of their overall fighting skill set.

I don't care about anyone's brief boxing history, I stand by what I said earlier.

The chances of Anderson Silva getting destroyed in a boxing ring is far smaller than the chance of Joe Calzaghe getting destroyed in an MMA cage.

I really don't know how anyone could argue that. I can easily see Anderson going 5 minutes with Calzaghe or Dawson in boxing ring, but I can't see either of those guys lasting 5 minutes in Anderson's world.

Anderson has been hit harder than either of those guys could tag him with boxing gloves, but neither of those guys has ever been twisted into a pretzel like Silva would mangle them.

Boxing purist have a difficult time with it, but MMA fighters are far more dangerous individuals than even the best boxers. Period.

[mexican wedding shirt]

I beat you to it :lol: look up a couple of posts.

:bears::mj:

[valdosta]

You can spin that shit anyway you want but the fact is Anderson Silva can't be a competitive boxer. He's already been KO'ed in 2 rounds by a fucking bum. So no, Silva isn't going to be competitive with any top echelon boxer. Get fucking real.

[Anthony]

You can spin that shit anyway you want but the fact is Anderson Silva can't be a competitive boxer. He's already been KO'ed in 2 rounds by a fucking bum. So no, Silva isn't going to be competitive with any top echelon boxer. Get fucking real.
But he is a more skilled fighter than a boxer. So Yes, Anderson Silva does have more skill than a boxer. Its quite simple really.

[valdosta]

But he is a more skilled fighter than a boxer. So Yes, Anderson Silva does have more skill than a boxer. Its quite simple really.

Not enough skill to be a top level boxer apparently. Quite simple really. he wasn't skilled enough to be a boxer so he went to MMA.

[Anthony]

Not enough skill to be a top level boxer apparently. Quite simple really. he wasn't skilled enough to be a boxer so he went to MMA.But boxing is one Skill Man. He has elite skills in several different Styles. MMA isnt a style. Anderson Silva is a much more skilled fighter than any top boxer right now. Yes, Boxers have more skills at BOXING. Thats it. Thats the only fighting style they have better than Silva. Now lets say Silva takes away their ability to box? What other skills will they fall back on? No matter what they are, Anderson Silva is Elite and more skilled in them.

So Yes, Anderson Silva is a much more skilled fighter than a boxer. Even the top boxer in the world.

[valdosta]

Preach it when Anderson Silva can actually beat a boxer worth a damn because the truth is....he can't. Forget top level boxers, he lost to a bum. :atu: If he was good enough to be a boxer he would be. Guess what? He's not.

[Anthony]

Preach it when Anderson Silva can actually beat a boxer worth a damn because the truth is....he can't. Forget top level boxers, he lost to a bum. :atu: If he was good enough to be a boxer he would be. Guess what? He's not.
Why do you keep talking about boxing? I am talking about fighting. Are seriously not understanding? Anderson Silva is a much more skilled FIGHTER than the top boxer in boxing. SIMPLE.

[valdosta]

Boxing skills are part of being a fighter. Period. The fact is he can't hang in boxing. If he could he would, considering top level boxers make more than him. It takes less skill and talent to be a mma fighter than boxer.

[Anthony]

Boxing skills are part of being a fighter. Period. The fact is he can't hang in boxing. If he could he would, considering top level boxers make more than him. It takes less skill and talent to be a mma fighter than boxer.This is where your understanding is lost. You keep talking about MMA and Boxing. What do those have to do with anything?

We are talking about a boxer and an Elite Fighter. Its simple. You put Fedor in a Room with Lennox Lewis, Prime for Prime, and Fedor wins. Fedor has more skills than Lewis.

This isnt about Boxing and MMA. Boxing has its bums and MMA have thier bums.

This is about Skills. Being The top FIGHTER in the world. Ali, Lewis, RJJ they were never considered the Top fighters in the world. NEVER. They were considered the top boxers.

Again, because i think you are a little slow. This is about Skills. Fedor, Silva, Penn, Courture, Jackson, Henderson, etc.

They have more SKILLS. They have all around fighting Skills. Fighting skills that take YEARS to master. I am not talking about Bums. You are obviously no fan of MMA, so look those guys up.

[valdosta]

Actually I know more about MMA than you. The fact is you get MMA guys who start later and who can make it because the fact is MMA fighters are less skilled and less talented. As I mentioned NONE of them could make it in boxing or else they would considering the pay level difference. it takes more skill to be at the top of the sport than mediocre at a bunch of them.

[valdosta]

BTW "Godfather" I would have to say you ae the slow 1. If you take a look at what I was debating it was the fact that a boxer wouldn't be as competitive at MMA, as an MMA fighter would be in boxing. For some reason you quoted my post about shit I wasn't even talking about. :notallthere: An MMA fighter in boxing isn't shit.

[mexican wedding shirt]

Godfather, you're getting this utterly wrong. Boxing is not "one skill" it's actually one "discipline". And within that disipline, there are many different skills that factor into being a good boxer.

Clearly Silva didn't have that much skill in boxing, otherwise he would probably be a top boxer now, enjoying the much higher purses than MMA.

World class boxers are more skilled than world class MMA fighters, it just so happens all their skills are focused on one discipline, rather than a few.

[Beyond the Grave]

In a streetfight an MMa fighter will always beat a boxer.

[TFK]

Saying boxing takes more skill then MMA, is like saying cooking steak takes more skill then cooking steak, lobster, chicken, fish, vegetables and dessert.

TFK

[mexican wedding shirt]

Saying boxing takes more skill then MMA, is like saying cooking steak takes more skill then cooking steak, lobster, chicken, fish, vegetables and dessert.

TFK

No. Actually saying boxing takes more skill than MMA is like saying it takes more skill to perfectly cook a cut of Kobe beef fillet steak with a perfect bearnaise sauce, than it does to cook a bigmac, fries, chicken nuggets, and coke.

[steve_dave]

BTW "Godfather" I would have to say you ae the slow 1. If you take a look at what I was debating it was the fact that a boxer wouldn't be as competitive at MMA, as an MMA fighter would be in boxing. For some reason you quoted my post about shit I wasn't even talking about. :notallthere: An MMA fighter in boxing isn't shit.

:lol: I was gonna say... Godfather really took it in a different direction.

[steve_dave]

No. Actually saying boxing takes more skill than MMA is like saying it takes more skill to perfectly cook a cut of Kobe beef fillet steak with a perfect bearnaise sauce, than it does to cook a bigmac, fries, chicken nuggets, and coke.

:bears: Truth.

[Breeze]

:lol::lol::atu:

Penn's boxing is actually pretty good. Freddy Roach has said as much. Roach said Penn's boxing is as good as any MMA fighter he's ever trained with.

I also think Jackson's boxing is very good for an MMA fighter. He's trained with Shane Mosley before

[steve_dave]

Penn's boxing is actually pretty good. Freddy Roach has said as much. Roach said Penn's boxing is as good as any MMA fighter he's ever trained with.

I also think Jackson's boxing is very good for an MMA fighter. He's trained with Shane Mosley before

Right, in comparison to other MMA fighters.

Jackson only throws one punch at a time, he's no amazing boxer.

[mexican wedding shirt]

Right, in comparison to other MMA fighters.

Jackson only throws one punch at a time, he's no amazing boxer.

Same as Penn, he has a very basic jab right hand, only better technique than other MMA fighters. He's not overly accurate or fast, no feints, no parries, no combos, not much punch variety. His hand techniques pale in comparison to a world class boxer.

[TFK]

No. Actually saying boxing takes more skill than MMA is like saying it takes more skill to perfectly cook a cut of Kobe beef fillet steak with a perfect bearnaise sauce, than it does to cook a bigmac, fries, chicken nuggets, and coke.


If you go into an MMA fight with Big Mac skills, you're not gonna last very long.


TFK

[steve_dave]

If you go into an MMA fight with Big Mac skills, you're not gonna last very long.


TFK

You basically described an MMA fighter as a top level boxer that can do a bunch of other stuff at an elite level. :lol:

[Breeze]

Same as Penn, he has a very basic jab right hand, only better technique than other MMA fighters. He's not overly accurate or fast, no feints, no parries, no combos, not much punch variety. His hand techniques pale in comparison to a world class boxer.

Well thats I'm pretty much saying, in comparison to other MMA fighters their boxing is pretty good.

Jackson actually does throw combinations (from what I saw in the Forrest fight) and he has some VERY good head movement. He threw jabs, right crosses, threw to the body and threw uppercuts. He even floored Forrest with an uppercut in the first round. I'd say his punch variety is adequate to good. I disagree that Jackson is not fast as well.

As far as parrying and feints I would agree, Jackson and Penn don't have that ability. I would also add in counterpunching. However is that fair? There are a lot of pro boxers I see who have limited punch variety (eg:Mickey Ward), or don't feint (eg:Juan Diaz) or parry (eg:Hatton), and these are world class guys (except for Ward). I don't think you can knock these guys for that when theres quite a few pro boxers don't do this well or do it all.

Penn does throw combos, just not often. Against Sherk whose standup is not good at all, all he had to do was just use the jab, which was enough. His combos are not as refined as a pro but he does throw them a lot better than average MMA guys.

[steve_dave]

Well thats I'm pretty much saying, in comparison to other MMA fighters their boxing is pretty good.

Jackson actually does throw combinations (from what I saw in the Forrest fight) and he has some VERY good head movement. He threw jabs, right crosses, threw to the body and threw uppercuts. He even floored Forrest with an uppercut in the first round. I'd say his punch variety is adequate to good. I disagree that Jackson is not fast as well.

As far as parrying and feints I would agree, Jackson and Penn don't have that ability. I would also add in counterpunching. However is that fair? There are a lot of pro boxers I see who have limited punch variety (eg:Mickey Ward), or don't feint (eg:Juan Diaz) or parry (eg:Hatton), and these are world class guys (except for Ward). I don't think you can knock these guys for that when theres quite a few pro boxers don't do this well or do it all.

Penn does throw combos, just not often. Against Sherk whose standup is not good at all, all he had to do was just use the jab, which was enough. His combos are not as refined as a pro but he does throw them a lot better than average MMA guys.

I didn't finish your post, but that's 100% wrong. The one thing I noticed about Jackson in that fight was how he was basically just a really crappy boxer when he was standing up, stiff neck and not throwing in combination.

[Breeze]

I didn't finish your post, but that's 100% wrong. The one thing I noticed about Jackson in that fight was how he was basically just a really crappy boxer when he was standing up, stiff neck and not throwing in combination.

Well, I'm going to try and watch the fight again to see if I missed something, because I saw Jackson throwing quite a few combinations in that fight.

Also can you clarify what you mean by "stiff neck"? Should he have been moving his neck in some way?

Your'e usually using your body (particularly your waist) to create head movement and slip punches, which was what Jackson was doing.

[Hitman]

the baddest man on the planet is no longer the heavyweight boxing champion, it is most likely the heavyweight MMA champion

[TFK]

You basically described an MMA fighter as a top level boxer that can do a bunch of other stuff at an elite level. :lol:


Not really, since boxing and MMA stand up are very different things.

TFK

[Anthony]

How does an Elite Boxer have more Skill than an Elite fighter? Even in simple Debate form, the fact the Fighter, knows more skills, even a bit of boxing, rules the Fighter has more skill. Which is basically the whole aregument.

99% of the MMA fighters arent on the same skill level of the top boxers out there. But that 1% has more skill. The amount of Dicipline, Training, Education, etc., learned is not comparible. You know whats coming in Boxing. The guy will either punch fast, punch hard, defend good, run, cover up, etc.

You never know what will come with a straight up fight. And to be elite in that aspect. To be elite in fighting? Thats unbelievable skill. Especially someone Like Fedor who doesnt lose.

[TFK]

How does an Elite Boxer have more Skill than an Elite fighter? Even in simple Debate form, the fact the Fighter, knows more skills, even a bit of boxing, rules the Fighter has more skill. Which is basically the whole aregument.

99% of the MMA fighters arent on the same skill level of the top boxers out there. But that 1% has more skill. The amount of Dicipline, Training, Education, etc., learned is not comparible. You know whats coming in Boxing. The guy will either punch fast, punch hard, defend good, run, cover up, etc.

You never know what will come with a straight up fight. And to be elite in that aspect. To be elite in fighting? Thats unbelievable skill. Especially someone Like Fedor who doesnt lose.



How many boxers out there are at an elite level? Not many.


TFK

[Azazel]

Saying that MMA artists are more skilled than boxing because it incorporate a wider range of discipline is like saying an handymen is more "skilled" than an engineer, a very simpleton way of seeing things. Of course they are more versatile than boxers but are far from boxers striking wise. And getting decent\good in a discipline doesn't take a lot of time, but getting elite in it requires a lifetime.

[Azazel]

Same as Penn, he has a very basic jab right hand, only better technique than other MMA fighters. He's not overly accurate or fast, no feints, no parries, no combos, not much punch variety. His hand techniques pale in comparison to a world class boxer.

Penn boxing is pretty shitty, that tells you how cluelles most MMA fans are regarding to boxing or others core discipline.

[Azazel]

In a streetfight an MMa fighter will always beat a boxer.

Considering that a steetfight is on concrete and not a soft surface made for grappling, that urban clothing hinders very much, and may very well make it impossible to use, kicks, knees, ju-jitsu,... well pretty much every skills apart punching (boxing) or to a lesser degree, wrestling, and that on a streetfight you are allowed to avoid a take down by hanging to something, I'd be pretty confident in picking the boxer the majority of the time.

[valdosta]

How many boxers out there are at an elite level? Not many.


TFK

Compared to MMA fighters every single guy, in every single division in the top 10 is elite.

[TFK]

Penn boxing is pretty shitty, that tells you how cluelles most MMA fans are regarding to boxing or others core discipline.


Penn's 'boxing' is much better then any top 10 boxer's 'MMA standup'.

TFK

[Azazel]

Penn's 'boxing' is much better then any top 10 boxer's 'MMA standup'.

TFK

Yeah, that's why MMA gyms primarly teach boxing ( and Muay Thai ) as stand up style and not the mysterious MMA standup that you keep talking about and are the only one to know what it's supposed to mean.

[TFK]

Yeah, that's why MMA gyms primarly teach boxing ( and Muay Thai ) as stand up style and not the mysterious MMA standup that you keep talking about and are the only one to know what it's supposed to mean.


If you can't see the difference between boxing and MMA standup, you're just not paying attention.

TFK

[mexican wedding shirt]

Saying that MMA artists are more skilled than boxing because it incorporate a wider range of discipline is like saying an handymen is more "skilled" than an engineer, a very simpleton way of seeing things. Of course they are more versatile than boxers but are far from boxers striking wise. And getting decent\good in a discipline doesn't take a lot of time, but getting elite in it requires a lifetime.

Exactly :bears:

Good analogy. It's not exactly hard to understand.

[Trplsec]

Saying that MMA artists are more skilled than boxing because it incorporate a wider range of discipline is like saying an handymen is more "skilled" than an engineer, a very simpleton way of seeing things. Of course they are more versatile than boxers but are far from boxers striking wise. And getting decent\good in a discipline doesn't take a lot of time, but getting elite in it requires a lifetime.

You act like MMA fighters are only average at every discipline. As I said previously, you take a guy like Penn that has decent boxing skills combined with being one of the most accomplished Jiu-Jitsu guys on the planet and you have an Engineer that is also a good handyman. Not just a handyman.

Godfather really summed it up though. Put Fedor in a room with any HW boxer alive and Fedor has them begging for mercy within 3 minutes. Now who would be the 'handyman' again in your analogy????

[LOK]

such a weird thing to compare..

but.. I agree that the BOXER is just all aroudn more polished..

the "ART" is there more..

Boxing has a LONG LONG history and guys that are top sometimes start at 6-7 years old..

slipping, parry, subtle defense as well as awesome punching offense.. boxing is just awesome

MMA guys like Chuck who KO people.. they do so not because of gloves... they do so because they are fighting wrestlers or brawlers who have no idea how to defend themselves..

[Anthony]

You act like MMA fighters are only average at every discipline. As I said previously, you take a guy like Penn that has decent boxing skills combined with being one of the most accomplished Jiu-Jitsu guys on the planet and you have an Engineer that is also a good handyman. Not just a handyman.

Godfather really summed it up though. Put Fedor in a room with any HW boxer alive and Fedor has them begging for mercy within 3 minutes. Now who would be the 'handyman' again in your analogy????
Exactly. These guys arent just some karate Kid wannabe's that have a yellow belt in Karate. They spend their whole Lives mastering the art of fighting. To be a black belt in Jiu-Jitsu is no easy accomplishment. Check out Rickson Gracie

[Anthony]

such a weird thing to compare..

but.. I agree that the BOXER is just all aroudn more polished..

the "ART" is there more..

Boxing has a LONG LONG history and guys that are top sometimes start at 6-7 years old..

slipping, parry, subtle defense as well as awesome punching offense.. boxing is just awesome

MMA guys like Chuck who KO people.. they do so not because of gloves... they do so because they are fighting wrestlers or brawlers who have no idea how to defend themselves..Dont compare liddel to someone like Fedor,penn, Silva, or Rickson

[Trplsec]

Exactly. These guys arent just some karate Kid wannabe's that have a yellow belt in Karate. They spend their whole Lives mastering the art of fighting. To be a black belt in Jiu-Jitsu is no easy accomplishment. Check out Rickson Gracie


No shit. Everyone is talking about Anderson Silva failing at boxing and then "settling" on MMA because it's easier. Bull shit. Silva chose MMA because his background is Muay Thai and JJ. He chose a sport that allowed him to utilize his training.

[LOK]

Dont compare liddel to someone like Fedor,penn, Silva, or Rickson


ok..

good point..

maybe guys like Fedor or Silva are up there with boxers... but I'm not sure... not yet anyway

[Anthony]

No shit. Everyone is talking about Anderson Silva failing at boxing and then "settling" on MMA because it's easier. Bull shit. Silva chose MMA because his background is Muay Thai and JJ. He chose a sport that allowed him to utilize his training.
And just because MMA doesnt get paid as much as boxing, doesnt make it easier. Its not easy to be elite in Martial Arts. There are way more All time greats in boxing than fighting.

[Anthony]

ok..

good point..

maybe guys like Fedor or Silva are up there with boxers... but I'm not sure... not yet anyway
Guys like Fedor and silva are passed boxers. They are passed Elite boxers. You name any boxer in history, and i got Fedor beating them in less than 3 minutes. And I LOVE boxing. But i have done BOTH and know the difference.

[LOK]

Guys like Fedor and silva are passed boxers. They are passed Elite boxers. You name any boxer in history, and i got Fedor beating them in less than 3 minutes. And I LOVE boxing. But i have done BOTH and know the difference.


lol

what do you m ean "beaating" ?? :laughing:

we are not talking about fighting no rules.. obviously the MMA guy holds advantage here..

I'm talking about just the level of skill and the "ART" of it.. Boxing is more more refined

[Anthony]

lol

what do you m ean "beaating" ?? :laughing:

we are not talking about fighting no rules.. obviously the MMA guy holds advantage here..

I'm talking about just the level of skill and the "ART" of it.. Boxing is more more refined
How is boxing more refined? Martial arts has been around for Hundreds of years.

[Trplsec]

What I love is that boxing fans (myself included) talk about the refinement, the technique, the subtle nuances of the sport. Yet ask most to name their favorite bout and it's almost unanimously a blood and guts brawl like Chico-Castillo or Gatti-Ward...

Let's be honest for half a second. Combat sports appeal to our blood lust. We like seeing who is the most dominant and who can inflict the most damage. We want to see devastation not pitter pat points decisions.

Sure it's neat to see a Pernell Whitaker avoid shots, but it's far more exciting to see a Mike Tyson render someone into a near vegetable state. We want to see who is the baddest dude.

MMA fighters are the 'badder' dudes.

[steve_dave]

What I love is that boxing fans (myself included) talk about the refinement, the technique, the subtle nuances of the sport. Yet ask most to name their favorite bout and it's almost unanimously a blood and guts brawl like Chico-Castillo or Gatti-Ward...

Let's be honest for half a second. Combat sports appeal to our blood lust. We like seeing who is the most dominant and who can inflict the most damage. We want to see devastation not pitter pat points decisions.

Sure it's neat to see a Pernell Whitaker avoid shots, but it's far more exciting to see a Mike Tyson render someone into a near vegetable state. We want to see who is the baddest dude.

MMA fighters are the 'badder' dudes.

Right, but many prefer Castillo/Corrales to Gatti/Ward because the skill level was much higher.

Also, how can you bring up two fights like that and come to the conclusion that MMA fighters are badder dudes?

[LOK]

How is boxing more refined? Martial arts has been around for Hundreds of years.


if you took ONE martial art and went through it's history.. ok..

when you take them and mix and match them.. you do not have the same pedigre..

I will say from personal experience.. I trained in martial arts since I was knee high to a grasshopper.. then into MMA some..

then I met a friend of a friend who was a pro boxer.. and his strikeing abilty, slipping, etc.. was just in another straospehere.. just awesome

[Trplsec]

Right, but many prefer Castillo/Corrales to Gatti/Ward because the skill level was much higher.

Also, how can you bring up two fights like that and come to the conclusion that MMA fighters are badder dudes?


Simple. Because as bad as those dudes were, they wouldn't last an MMA round with Urijah Faber....:lol:

If you think Gatti bled like a stuck pig in a boxing ring, let him catch a few Kenny Florian elbows and watch the river flow.

But the real point was directed at those that talk about loving the refined skill and technique of boxing. I was just calling bullshit.

[Trplsec]

if you took ONE martial art and went through it's history.. ok..

when you take them and mix and match them.. you do not have the same pedigre..

I will say from personal experience.. I trained in martial arts since I was knee high to a grasshopper.. then into MMA some..

then I met a friend of a friend who was a pro boxer.. and his strikeing abilty, slipping, etc.. was just in another straospehere.. just awesome


You'd say the exact same thing if you ever got tangled up with a Jiu-Jitsu blackbelt.. It's just awesome.

And by the way, a guy like BJ Penn isn't watering down any martial art. He is a JJ expert. It just so happens he also has other skills as well. That doesn't diminish his level of JJ.

[LOK]

You'd say the exact same thing if you ever got tangled up with a Jiu-Jitsu blackbelt.. It's just awesome.

And by the way, a guy like BJ Penn isn't watering down any martial art. He is a JJ expert. It just so happens he also has other skills as well. That doesn't diminish his level of JJ.


yeah.. you are prolly right.. good point..

I have worked with some excellent grapplers..

but for me.. in my own mind.. it's just not as impressive:dunno:

[mexican wedding shirt]

Right, but many prefer Castillo/Corrales to Gatti/Ward because the skill level was much higher.

Also, how can you bring up two fights like that and come to the conclusion that MMA fighters are badder dudes?

That's what I was thinking, you can't lump those 2 in the same sentence, and if you consider them similar, you simply don't know much about boxing.

Corrales - Castillo was more similar to Morales - Barrera 1 than Gatti - Ward.

I don't think Gatti - Ward is a great fight, it's a couple of notches above a club fight.

Corrales - Castillo was an inside fighting war, with a huge amount of skill on display. Same with Morales - Barrera 1, those 2 fights are not comparable in any way to gatti and ward staggering around the ring throwing haymakers at each other.

[Trplsec]

That's what I was thinking, you can't lump those 2 in the same sentence, and if you consider them similar, you simply don't know much about boxing.

Corrales - Castillo was more similar to Morales - Barrera 1 than Gatti - Ward.

I don't think Gatti - Ward is a great fight, it's a couple of notches above a club fight.

Corrales - Castillo was an inside fighting war, with a huge amount of skill on display. Same with Morales - Barrera 1, those 2 fights are not comparable in any way to gatti and ward staggering around the ring throwing haymakers at each other.

Oh really? So Castillo-Corrales was a great fight because of all the technique and skill on display? Or was it because of the ability to take punishment and keep coming. Or was it because they absolutely beat the shit out of each other?

On fight night there wasn't a mother fucker around saying "Wow, look at Castillo's footwork on the inside. Wow, look at how Corrales makes him miss with great defense."

The skill primarily on display was both guy's ability to get hit more and more with each passing round.

Call it what you want, but both fights are appealing because the combatants beat the living shit out of each other. And Castillo-Corrales isn't the better fight of the two because of their skill. It was the better fight because they battered each other to far greater degree.

[Anthony]

You'd say the exact same thing if you ever got tangled up with a Jiu-Jitsu blackbelt.. It's just awesome.

And by the way, a guy like BJ Penn isn't watering down any martial art. He is a JJ expert. It just so happens he also has other skills as well. That doesn't diminish his level of JJ.
Exactly, JJ is unbelievable. I have rolled with a Blue belt and his techique is ability was crazy. I would love to roll with a black belt on day. Its like wrestling with a spider. And the next thing you know, you are caught in some hold. :bears:

[Anthony]

Its claled Mixed Martial Arts because there is so many different styles that compete. Not because you know a mixture of different Martial Arts. You dont have to even know lots of styles. Look at Jackson. Or look at Gracie.

[Anthony]

Castillo and Carrales werent exactly Elite Skillful fighters. That fight was great because they stood still and slugged. There was no boxing in that fight.

[Breeze]

You act like MMA fighters are only average at every discipline. As I said previously, you take a guy like Penn that has decent boxing skills combined with being one of the most accomplished Jiu-Jitsu guys on the planet and you have an Engineer that is also a good handyman. Not just a handyman.

Godfather really summed it up though. Put Fedor in a room with any HW boxer alive and Fedor has them begging for mercy within 3 minutes. Now who would be the 'handyman' again in your analogy????

Excellent point BJ Penn is a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu world champion and to make it even more interesting he got his black belt in 3 years which is amazing considering it usually takes 5 years minimum. So I agree with your take that he is pretty much already an engineer who is a handyman as well.

[mexican wedding shirt]

Oh really? So Castillo-Corrales was a great fight because of all the technique and skill on display? Or was it because of the ability to take punishment and keep coming. Or was it because they absolutely beat the shit out of each other?

On fight night there wasn't a mother fucker around saying "Wow, look at Castillo's footwork on the inside. Wow, look at how Corrales makes him miss with great defense."

The skill primarily on display was both guy's ability to get hit more and more with each passing round.

Call it what you want, but both fights are appealing because the combatants beat the living shit out of each other. And Castillo-Corrales isn't the better fight of the two because of their skill. It was the better fight because they battered each other to far greater degree.

Corrales Vs Castillo was great because it had BOTH factors. It was extremely violent, and I love violence. But it was between 2 skilled attacking fighters, and I love skill too.

Violent yes, but this was supreme, high caliber violence. It was a brutal, back and forth battle where they beat the shit out of each other, BUT it was being dished out by 2 skilled fighting machines, with brilliant punching technique, accuracy, timing, variety etc.

Same guys for Morales and Barrera, AND Vazquez - Marquez. Ultra violent fights contested between skilled fighting machines.

If you can't see the difference between those fights and Gatti - Ward you're fucking insane, and should really stick to MMA. I'm not trying to be offensive, but it's true, if you can't see the difference.

[mexican wedding shirt]

Castillo and Carrales werent exactly Elite Skillful fighters. That fight was great because they stood still and slugged. There was no boxing in that fight.

You don't have to be up on your toes jabbing and potshotting to be skilled. Both corrales and castillo have excellent skill for attacking fighters, timing, accuracy, punch repertoire, feints etc. And punching technique, especially Corrales. His counter left hook is picture perfect, and is one of the best short range punchers I've ever seen.

They are both 100 times more skilled than Gatti and Ward. As are Morales, Barrera, Vazquez and Marquez.

[valdosta]

Castillo and Corrales were both excellent infighters. 1 more so because of talent (Corrales) and the other so because of tecnique (Castillo). I didn't realize there's no skill in infighting. Wow there's some ignorant shit posted in this thread. :doh:

[valdosta]

Oh and LOL at bringing a guy like Rickson gracie in this thread. yeah good idea don't compare him to Chuck lidell. I agree with that because the difference is Lidell actually fought elite fighters. Gracie "fought" trash. Like professional NBA team going against high Schoolers, yeah that's real impressive.

[Breeze]

^^
I can't stand Rickson Gracie, he is probably the most arrogant guy in all of combat sports including boxing.

Claims to be invincible but doesn't face the best fighters to prove it. I heard once that Bas Rutten challenged him publicly in the ring and he backed down.

[Anthony]

^^
I can't stand Rickson Gracie, he is probably the most arrogant guy in all of combat sports including boxing.

Claims to be invincible but doesn't face the best fighters to prove it. I heard once that Bas Rutten challenged him publicly in the ring and he backed down.
You should rent a Documentary called Choke. I think you will like it. You can see rickson's training. Its crazy shit. Comes off more likable as well.

[Breeze]

You should rent a Documentary called Choke. I think you will like it. You can see rickson's training. Its crazy shit. Comes off more likable as well.


Hmmm, thanks never heard of it. I'll try and see if I can get my hands on it.

[Anthony]

Hmmm, thanks never heard of it. I'll try and see if I can get my hands on it.If you cant, let me know, i will send you a copy

[mexican wedding shirt]

Castillo and Corrales were both excellent infighters. 1 more so because of talent (Corrales) and the other so because of tecnique (Castillo). I didn't realize there's no skill in infighting. Wow there's some ignorant shit posted in this thread. :doh:

I know. I mean FUCKING HELL, seriously, comparing Corrales and Castillo to Gatti and Ward is as ignorant as it gets. 2 of the best, most skilled/talented infighters of the modern era, compared to 2 popular, glorified club fighters in Gatti and Ward.

I actually gave Trplsec more credit than this, I'm surprised.

That's the sort of thing I expect from an MMA fan that is a complete boxing know-nothing.

[Anthony]

I know. I mean FUCKING HELL, seriously, comparing Corrales and Castillo to Gatti and Ward is as ignorant as it gets. 2 of the best, most skilled/talented infighters of the modern era, compared to 2 popular, glorified club fighters in Gatti and Ward.

I actually gave Trplsec more credit than this, I'm surprised.

That's the sort of thing I expect from an MMA fan that is a complete boxing know-nothing.
How was corrales a better in fighter than ward?

[Trplsec]

I know. I mean FUCKING HELL, seriously, comparing Corrales and Castillo to Gatti and Ward is as ignorant as it gets. 2 of the best, most skilled/talented infighters of the modern era, compared to 2 popular, glorified club fighters in Gatti and Ward.

I actually gave Trplsec more credit than this, I'm surprised.

That's the sort of thing I expect from an MMA fan that is a complete boxing know-nothing.

Again, you miss my point. I never compared the talent level of Ward-Gatti or Corrales-Castillo. What I stated was that boxing fans prefer brutal brawls over boxing contest.

I could have thrown out Hagler-Hearns or any great slugfest in history. It's not comparing the talent of the fighters. It's comparing the preference of brutality over beauty.

Period.

[steve_dave]

How was corrales a better in fighter than ward?

:bangh:

[Anthony]

:bangh:
What evidence showed that Corrales had better skills infighting than Ward?

[steve_dave]

What evidence showed that Corrales had better skills infighting than Ward?

:lol: Are you serious?


Other than the hook to the body, Chico was better at EVERYTHING on the inside. He threw shorter, tighter shots... with both hands. He hit harder and he beat better fighters. He had a great hook, great straight right hand, and he worked uppercuts in nicely too. Ward had one move, hook to the body. Chico threw punches with WAY more skill than Ward.

The evidence is on the films and on his record. Chico beat way better fighters

You don't honestly believe that Ward could compete with Castillo on the inside, do you?

Chico also won world titles in two weights fighting on the inside.

Again, are you serious?

[mexican wedding shirt]

:lol: Are you serious?


Other than the hook to the body, Chico was better at EVERYTHING on the inside. He threw shorter, tighter shots... with both hands. He hit harder and he beat better fighters. He had a great hook, great straight right hand, and he worked uppercuts in nicely too. Ward had one move, hook to the body. Chico threw punches with WAY more skill than Ward.

The evidence is on the films and on his record. Chico beat way better fighters

You don't honestly believe that Ward could compete with Castillo on the inside, do you?

Chico also won world titles in two weights fighting on the inside.

Again, are you serious?

I can't believe he even asked that. If one needs to ask that, it's maybe not even worth explaining, it should be absolutely obvious.

Corrales has shorter, crisper, faster shots, a larger array of punches, an incredible, devastating counter left hook that could put guys on their arses from 6 inches away. He also had much, much better timing and accuracy.

Basically his whole offensive and infighting game was leagues ahead of Ward's.

Ward had one good punch, a left hook to the body, that's it. Other than that Ward was average offensively.

The proof is in the pudding, Corrales beat world class fighters and won titles with his inside game - Ward didn't. Simple as that, they are not even comparable.

It's not like he was more successful than Ward because he has a better chin, or better stamina etc - quite simply he was a far more talented and skilled fighter.

And to answer the question directly...

What evidence showed that Corrales had better skills infighting than Ward?


Answer - the majority of Chico's fights.

[Anthony]

Diego beat world class fighters with his infighting? WHO???

He beat Casamayor boxing on the outside with a jab
He beat Frietas after Frietas got tired and Corrales caught him

The only good not great fighter he beat on the inside was castillo. And even that was questionable since he was given so much time to recover. He was still down twice and almost out.

What made corrales leagues above ward? The man was knocked out or on the floor against top opponents many times.

[Breeze]

If you cant, let me know, i will send you a copy

Thanks , I'll let you know if I cant get a copy.....

[steve_dave]

Diego beat world class fighters with his infighting? WHO???

He beat Casamayor boxing on the outside with a jab
He beat Frietas after Frietas got tired and Corrales caught him

The only good not great fighter he beat on the inside was castillo. And even that was questionable since he was given so much time to recover. He was still down twice and almost out.

What made corrales leagues above ward? The man was knocked out or on the floor against top opponents many times.

How about everyone he knocked out at 130?

I won't go back and forth with you on this. To steal a line from TFK, if you can't see that Corrales is a better, more dangerous in-fighter than MICKY WARD you haven't been paying attention.

[valdosta]

Mickey Ward couldn't even beat Antonio Diaz on the inside. :lol: There's a reason most guys tried to fight Corrales from a distance. The guy's power on the inside was sick. It didn't take much distance or anything else for his punches to fuck a guy up. The same can't be said about Mickey Ward.

[Anthony]

How about everyone he knocked out at 130?

I won't go back and forth with you on this. To steal a line from TFK, if you can't see that Corrales is a better, more dangerous in-fighter than MICKY WARD you haven't been paying attention.He may be better and more dangerous, but he isnt leagues above him. And who are these great fighters that Diego beat on the inside? I am still waiting for that.

[Anthony]

I just dont think Corrales was a great fighter. He had a weak chin, his defense was terrible. He didnt have many significant wins. He actually lost more big fights than he won. Corrales vs. Castillo was a slugfest. There was no boxing in that fight. Two guys put their heads down and slugged.

[valdosta]

Yeah beating Casamayor,Castillo and Freitas is no big deal. He was pretty mediocre. Wow, talk about ignorance. Actually I am starting to see why some people are MMA fans, they don't know shit about boxing.

[Anthony]

Yeah beating Casamayor,Castillo and Freitas is no big deal. He was pretty mediocre. Wow, talk about ignorance. Actually I am starting to see why some people are MMA fans, they don't know shit about boxing.
Out of those three, he only beat Castillo fighting on the inside. Also, he caught Frietas after frietas gassed from boxing his ears off. Lets also mention that Cassa beat him twice. Castillo also knocked his ass out in the second fight.

[steve_dave]

Sorry, this will make my head hurt. I'm out. :lol:

[valdosta]

Out of those three, he only beat Castillo fighting on the inside. Also, he caught Frietas after frietas gassed from boxing his ears off. Lets also mention that Cassa beat him twice. Castillo also knocked his ass out in the second fight.

You can mention whatever you want to but the fact is he has a win over Casamayor,Castillo and Freitas. Mickey Ward and Gatti have never beaten fighters as good as those. They got there ass whipped by that caliber of fighter. Did you even pay attention to the Freitas fight? Corrales did some good body work that helped Freitas get tired on the inside. Of course Freitas ran like hell and Corrales walked him down. Freitas wanted not part of an inside fight. You have any idea why that might have been? :notallthere: Corrales knocked guys the fuck out with punches that didn't travel far. This isn;t rocket science.

[Anthony]

You can mention whatever you want to but the fact is he has a win over Casamayor,Castillo and Freitas. Mickey Ward and Gatti have never beaten fighters as good as those. They got there ass whipped by that caliber of fighter. Did you even pay attention to the Freitas fight? Corrales did some good body work that helped Freitas get tired on the inside. Of course Freitas ran like hell and Corrales walked him down. Freitas wanted not part of an inside fight. You have any idea why that might have been? :notallthere: Corrales knocked guys the fuck out with punches that didn't travel far. This isn;t rocket science.
Fact: He didnt beat Freitas with Inside fighting
Fact: He didnt beat Casa with Inside fighting

other than Castillo what top level fighter did he beat with inside fighting? And even Castillo was beating his ass until he got 30 seconds to rest.

[jarhead]

These threads just make my stomach turn. They are two totally different sports. The boxing in MMA is sub-par at best. Boxers would lose in a streetfight to a MMA fighter. Sure. Great. Now everyone can go back and put there BJ Penn and Floyd Mayweather underroos back on and live in peace.

[valdosta]

Fact: He didnt beat Freitas with Inside fighting
Fact: He didnt beat Casa with Inside fighting

other than Castillo what top level fighter did he beat with inside fighting? And even Castillo was beating his ass until he got 30 seconds to rest.

Fact, he wore Freitas down with inside fighting and beat Castillo infighting. If you actually pay attention Castillo dropped Corrales when they were on the outside in the first fight BTW. Once again, these are A level fighters that Corrales won some and lost some to. What A level fighters did Gatti and Ward beat? Hell they got outbrawled by C level fighters. Corrales and Castillo both showed sfillfull infighting but you don't know boxing well enough to notice apparently.

[Anthony]

Fact, he wore Freitas down with inside fighting and beat Castillo infighting. If you actually pay attention Castillo dropped Corrales when they were on the outside in the first fight BTW. Once again, these are A level fighters that Corrales won some and lost some to. What A level fighters did Gatti and Ward beat? Hell they got outbrawled by C level fighters. Corrales and Castillo both showed sfillfull infighting but you don't know boxing well enough to notice apparently.
He didnt wear freitas down with no inside fighting. Freitas wore himself down. Thats not even a dispute. I am not saying that Corrales and Ward are on the same level. I am saying that thier infighting is not WORLDS apart.

Corralles isnt an all time great. He got a lucky break against castillo who had him beat. A 32 second breat won that fight. And IMO Freitas beat himself. If Freitas had anything in the tank, he would have won that fight. Freitas gassed and got beat. Diego didnt touch him until freitas slowed down.

[Trplsec]

He didnt wear freitas down with no inside fighting. Freitas wore himself down. Thats not even a dispute. I am not saying that Corrales and Ward are on the same level. I am saying that thier infighting is not WORLDS apart.

Corralles isnt an all time great. He got a lucky break against castillo who had him beat. A 32 second breat won that fight. And IMO Freitas beat himself. If Freitas had anything in the tank, he would have won that fight. Freitas gassed and got beat. Diego didnt touch him until freitas slowed down.

I'm not getting into the who's the best infighter debate, but anyone that calls Diego an "All Time Great" is giving him far too much credit because he's dead.

[Anthony]

I'm not getting into the who's the best infighter debate, but anyone that calls Diego an "All Time Great" is giving him far too much credit because he's dead.
I agree. He was far from an all time great.

[mexican wedding shirt]

:lol: at this thread.

Micky Ward is not as good an infighter as Corrales, all he has is a decent left hook to the body.

That's the main reason why Diego is a 2 weight champ and Mickey Ward has never even beaten a fighter the caliber of Manfredy, let alone Castillo, Freitas or Casamayor.

All of Chico's wins came from his world class inside game, apart from the Casamayor rematch, where he mainly fought at a distance.

Corrales had a much wider array of punches than Ward, better timing, better accuracy, faster hands, was better at getting into position, didn't need to set his feet to punch, and had far, far better punching technique - shorter, crisper, more compact punches.

It's like comparing Trinidad's technique to Mayorga, there is no comparison.

And anyone that doubts Corrales is a better infighter than Ward should really stop watching boxing, and move exclusively to MMA. Or maybe even wrestling.

[Anthony]

:lol: at this thread.

Micky Ward is not as good an infighter as Corrales, all he has is a decent left hook to the body.

That's the main reason why Diego is a 2 weight champ and Mickey Ward has never even beaten a fighter the caliber of Manfredy, let alone Castillo, Freitas or Casamayor.

All of Chico's wins came from his world class inside game, apart from the Casamayor rematch, where he mainly fought at a distance.

Corrales had a much wider array of punches than Ward, better timing, better accuracy, faster hands, was better at getting into position, didn't need to set his feet to punch, and had far, far better punching technique - shorter, crisper, more compact punches.

It's like comparing Trinidad's technique to Mayorga, there is no comparison.

And anyone that doubts Corrales is a better infighter than Ward should really stop watching boxing, and move exclusively to MMA. Or maybe even wrestling.
Nobody said he wasnt better, its just not worlds apart. And every win didnt come from infighting. His freitas win wasnt a result of in fighting.

And lets talk about his loses. How many fights did he lose with his infighting?

[Trplsec]

Nobody said he wasnt better, its just not worlds apart. And every win didnt come from infighting. His freitas win wasnt a result of in fighting.

And lets talk about his loses. How many fights did he lose with his infighting?


Well, the whole idea that the 'skill' demonstrated in Corrales-Castillo was far greater than Ward-Gatti is ridiculous. Neither fight was an example of boxing prowess on display.

They were blood and guts slugfest and there wasn't anyone jumping up and down about the "skill" being used. That's horseshit.

Combined, Castillo and Corrales are the better fighters in my opinion, but it is not on a completely different level than Gatti and Ward. Hell, Ward is a stretch naturally, but Gatti is every bit as accomplished as Corrales was.

[Anthony]

Well, the whole idea that the 'skill' demonstrated in Corrales-Castillo was far greater than Ward-Gatti is ridiculous. Neither fight was an example of boxing prowess on display.

They were blood and guts slugfest and there wasn't anyone jumping up and down about the "skill" being used. That's horseshit.

Combined, Castillo and Corrales are the better fighters in my opinion, but it is not on a completely different level than Gatti and Ward. Hell, Ward is a stretch naturally, but Gatti is every bit as accomplished as Corrales was.
Try telling these guys that. The only true skills demonstrated that night was the ability to take a beating by both men. they put their heads down and slugged.

[Trplsec]

Try telling these guys that. The only true skills demonstrated that night was the ability to take a beating by both men. they put their heads down and slugged.


Exactly. If taking punishment and bleeding is a skill, then I can no longer argue this..

:lol::lol:

[His_Royness]

You can spin that shit anyway you want but the fact is Anderson Silva can't be a competitive boxer. He's already been KO'ed in 2 rounds by a fucking bum. So no, Silva isn't going to be competitive with any top echelon boxer. Get fucking real.



While i agree that Silva would not be competitive in boxing, being KOed by a 19-2 guy in your first boxing match has happened to FAR better guys before and can't be really used as an argument.