Holyfield/Tyson/Lewis/Bowe - How would you rate them...

[broadwayjoe]

Holyfield/Tyson/Lewis/Bowe.

How would you rate them...

1. Against each other in terms of careers? Which one would you rate first, second, third & fourth? Things to consider - who had the best resume? Who was most dominant? Who did best head to head among them?

2. In all-time heavy rankings. Which of them make the Top 10 all time? How do they rate against the other Top Heavies?

[TFK]

1. Lewis
2. Holyfield
3. Tyson
4. Bowe


TFK

[Andrew]

1. Lewis
2. Holyfield
3. Tyson
4. Bowe


TFK

Cosign.

[Mitchell Kane]

A well though out answer to this could take a long time, so my first response is Bowe third and Holyfield fourth, in a round robin format, because I'm not sure, prime for prime, if Holyfield was better than any of them or could beat them heads up.

[Arben]

I don't think the list is meant as a head to head kind of ranking.

I'm with TFK, although there might be a case for interchanging Lewis and Holyfield.

[broadwayjoe]

I don't think the list is meant as a head to head kind of ranking.

I'm with TFK, although there might be a case for interchanging Lewis and Holyfield.

Yep. I wasn't thinking of it as a head-to-head only thing. But that should be part of the equation. And only the head-to-head that actually happened, rather than introducing Mythical Matchup head-to-head.

[Mitchell Kane]

Yep. I wasn't thinking of it as a head-to-head only thing. But that should be part of the equation. And only the head-to-head that actually happened, rather than introducing Mythical Matchup head-to-head.

That's a little biased against Tyson, given when his prime was and when he fought Holyfield and Lewis. He's really not from the era of Bowe and Lewis, and really not even with Holyfield. Tyson's prime was before any of them made their mark in the division.

[Neil]

That's a little biased against Tyson, given when his prime was and when he fought Holyfield and Lewis. He's really not from the era of Bowe and Lewis, and really not even with Holyfield. Tyson's prime was before any of them made their mark in the division.

fair is relative. holyfields prime was in a different division. head to head holyfield beat two of the three and nearly beat the third

[broadwayjoe]

That's a little biased against Tyson, given when his prime was and when he fought Holyfield and Lewis. He's really not from the era of Bowe and Lewis, and really not even with Holyfield. Tyson's prime was before any of them made their mark in the division.

It's not biased...it's rating figthers based on the facts only. It's too easy to say that "So-and-so would have beat so-and-so if the fight happened at this time". Are you one of those folks who believe Tyson's prime conveniently ended around the time of his first loss??

Tyson was still a young man and a good fighter at the time Holyfield became a heavy contender and when Holy won the title. And he held titles and was a major factor in the division after he was released from prison.

And to be fair...Tyson was a huge favorite over Holy going into their first fight. Hell...Tyson was criticized for waiting until Holy looked to be totally washed up before making that fight.

[TFK]

I don't think the list is meant as a head to head kind of ranking.

I'm with TFK, although there might be a case for interchanging Lewis and Holyfield.

I put Lewis above Holyfield because Lewis never embarassed himself at the end of his career like Holyfield continues to do. We were asked to judge them by their careers, which means their entire careers, not just the highpoints.

Lewis beat every fighter he ever faced, and didn't tarnish his legacy by fighting too long like the other 3 have.

TFK

[Mitchell Kane]

fair is relative. holyfields prime was in a different division. head to head holyfield beat two of the three and nearly beat the third

I thought the discussion was just about their careers heavyweights, since I wouldn't put any of them in the top 10 if we're not talking about that division.

Head to head, Lewis has wins over all three. :lol:

[LOK]

Holy
Tyson
Bowe
Lewis

In my eyes.. Lewis HAS to be at the bottom as he was one of the worst champs ever


Holy and Mike.. it's hard to say

Mike was the youngest EVER to become HW champ and totally dominated when he was very young. People forget that leading up to the spinks fight..most media thought Spinks was too good..

Holy was a cruiser so it's impressive that he came up and beat many top heavys.. his wars with Bowe were awesome plus he DOMINATED Tyson.. even though Tyson was done already.. still impressive

Bowe IMO had the most talent but the least drive and determination

Lewis.. although I never liked him.. have to admit he had the tools to be great but never really became great.. fought a lot of bums and looked bad doing so.. really LOST to old ass Ray mercer, plus got knocked out COLD by Rahman and mccall..

[Mitchell Kane]

Holy
Tyson
Bowe
Lewis

In my eyes.. Lewis HAS to be at the bottom as he was one of the worst champs ever


Holy and Mike.. it's hard to say

Mike was the youngest EVER to become HW champ and totally dominated when he was very young. People forget that leading up to the spinks fight..most media thought Spinks was too good..

Holy was a cruiser so it's impressive that he came up and beat many top heavys.. his wars with Bowe were awesome plus he DOMINATED Tyson.. even though Tyson was done already.. still impressive

Bowe IMO had the most talent but the least drive and determination

Lewis.. although I never liked him.. have to admit he had the tools to be great but never really became great.. fought a lot of bums and looked bad doing so.. really LOST to old ass Ray mercer, plus got knocked out COLD by Rahman and mccall..

In a topic with Bowe and Lewis, and it's Lewis who fought a lot of bums?

Very balanced take.

[Nobleart]

1. Lewis
2. Holyfield
3. Tyson
4. Bowe


TFK


That's how I have it.

[Nobleart]

Holy
Tyson
Bowe
Lewis

In my eyes.. Lewis HAS to be at the bottom as he was one of the worst champs ever


Holy and Mike.. it's hard to say

Mike was the youngest EVER to become HW champ and totally dominated when he was very young. People forget that leading up to the spinks fight..most media thought Spinks was too good..

Holy was a cruiser so it's impressive that he came up and beat many top heavys.. his wars with Bowe were awesome plus he DOMINATED Tyson.. even though Tyson was done already.. still impressive

Bowe IMO had the most talent but the least drive and determination

Lewis.. although I never liked him.. have to admit he had the tools to be great but never really became great.. fought a lot of bums and looked bad doing so.. really LOST to old ass Ray mercer, plus got knocked out COLD by Rahman and mccall..


:lol:



I love you LOK.

[LOK]

In a topic with Bowe and Lewis, and it's Lewis who fought a lot of bums?

Very balanced take.


Bowe fought some bums no doubt.. but he put them out in style for the most part

Lemmon with life and death with several bums (mohawk).. etc..

[broadwayjoe]

In a topic with Bowe and Lewis, and it's Lewis who fought a lot of bums?

Very balanced take.
LOK's hate for Lewis is legendary...second only to Esk.:lol:

[Neil]

bowe's career and potential greatness were ruined by the two H's. hunger and holyfield.

[Erratic]

Bowe fought some bums no doubt.. but he put them out in style for the most part

Lemmon with life and death with several bums (mohawk).. etc..

Bowe had more trouble with Herbie "I fell down 47 times" Hide and an aging Tony Tubbs then Lemmon did with Mohawk.

[Mitchell Kane]

bowe's career and potential greatness were ruined by the two H's. hunger and holyfield.

Well, he was a big fighter that was pretty well developed at fighting on the inside against smaller fighters...but he also got hit a lot with that style.

I thought the Holyfield rematch was very close, he could have well won all three fights (or at least not lost any of them), but I agree that the accumulated punishment he took in those fights really took their toll on him.

Holyfield was not only tremendous strong physically and mentally, but he also proved to be more adaptable, an under-rated reason why he was able to last as long as he did. The difference between the fighter he was when he first moved up and where he finished (as a champion) aren't nearly the same versions.

[whiskey]

You mix and match them various ways. No matter how you do it Bowe has to be last though.

[Pascals Wager]

1. Lewis
2. Holyfield
3. Tyson
4. Bowe


TFK

seems about right to me.

[steve_dave]

1. Lewis
2. Holyfield
3. Tyson
4. Bowe


TFK

Yep

[Free Ike]

Lewis
Holyfield
Tyson





















Bowe.

[Pascals Wager]

Lewis
Holyfield
Tyson





















Bowe.

Yeah-More to the point.

[Inside Whiskey's sister 24/7]

Holyfield
Lewis
Tyson
Bowe

[whiskey]

Holyfield
Lewis
Tyson
Bowe

Just had to be different, didn't you?

[Inside Whiskey's sister 24/7]

Just had to be different, didn't you?

yes....

[whiskey]

yes....

Next you're going to get tattoos and nipple piercings. :nono:

[Inside Whiskey's sister 24/7]

Next you're going to get tattoos and nipple piercings. :nono:

:nono:

‘If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn’t thinking.’ -The pimp of the Bulge..

[whiskey]

:nono:

‘If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn’t thinking.’ -The pimp of the Bulge..

Fine, you just better not come home with a nose ring and a mohawk. :warning:

[LOK]

you guys gotta be kidding with Lemmon in number one! I mean.. come on!!!

I honestly don't believe anyone here thinks Lemmon is the greatest..

[Tam Tam]

Career:

1. Holyfield
2. Lewis
3. Tyson
4. Bowe

Head-to-head
1. Lewis
2. Tyson
3. Holyfield
4. Bowe

[D MAN]

Head to Head:

Lewis
Bowe
Holyfield
Tyson

Lewis beat all that he faced, with moderate to no difficulty
Bowe arguably beat Holyfield three times
Holyfield beat Tyson, although it was a bit dirty
Tyson beat none that he faced, not even close


Career greatness:

Lewis
Tyson
Holyfield
Bowe

Lewis is top 10 all time for sure
Tyson has a legacy that can never be forgotten
Holyfield is a legend of the 90's
Bowe was badass but didn't captivate or have any period of sustained dominance

[meetthefeebles]

Lewis
Holyfield
Tyson
Bowe

Lewis is definitely a top ten HW of all time IMHO. He beat everyone there was for him to beat (and who was willing to fight him) and he avenged both of his defeats in decisive fashion. Bowe threw his belt in the bin to avoid getting his ass handed to him again by Lewis, Tyson paid Lewis off to stay out of his way until he had no realistic options left but to take his beating (and his huge payday) and Holy was beaten twice; the first time decisively and the second time close but clear.

Holyfield is a boxing legend, no doubt, and history will judge him very kindly IMHO. His upset wins over Tyson were incredibly impressive, even if Mike was by then faded, and he had tremendous courage and heart, as well as outstanding durability for such a small HW. I wish he'd fucking pack it all in now though...doh:

Tyson is difficult to judge, because his 'prime', as it was, lasted very briefly and to be honest he lost every fight he had with these other guys. He was still the 'baddest man on the planet' at one stage, though, and even though he was probably overrated a little at the time, he has become a little underrated now.

Bowe was shit.

MTF

[REEDsART]

1st of All, Riddick Bowe DOESN'T Belong N this Discussion...Him & EVERYBODY ELSE KNEW that his Chance to Carve His OWN Niche was by Facing Lennox Lewis...

Bowe Called Lennox Names, DISSED him N Interviews, but NEVER had the Cashews to Actually FIGHT Lennox & Redeem his KO Olympic Loss...REED Will REFRAIN from Questioning Bowe's Manhood, but it's APPARENT that he NEVER Wanted to Fight Lennox Lewis Again...

2nd, Mike Tyson had More of an IMPACT than ANY of the Other Listed Fighters...By Faaaaaaaaaar....N a Historical Context, Impact CAN'T B Overlooked...Dempsey & Louis R PRIME Examples...NEITHER of them Fought the Absolute BEST Guys Possible, yet they're BOTH Penciled N on Most All-Time Heavy Lists...

N Terms of ACCOMPLISHMENTS, Holyfield is 1st...He was UNDISPUTED @ 2 Weights...& his Resume is BETTER than the Rest...If we're JUST Ranking them as Heavy's, Lennox Probably Gets the Knod...

Greatness

Holy (Unless his Crusier Exploits DON'T Count)
Lennox
Tyson
Bowe


Head to Head

Tyson
Lennox
Bowe
Holy


REED:lol:

[Xplosive]

Career:

1. Holy
2. Lewis
3. Tyson
4. Bowe

In terms of actual talent, and prime-for-prime who beats who:

1. Tyson
2. Lewis
3. Bowe
4. Holy

[steve_dave]

When you factor in this decade there's no f'n way Holyfield has had a better, or greater career than Lewis. Please.

[dsimon3387]

Dsimon writes:

I never thought much of Bowe. But it gets interesting because if you compare a cerain way, in terms of talent and ability at the top of their game, then Bowe and Razor Ruddock and Tyson all have the characteristic of being potentially a lot stronger than their career would indicate. And Bowe did have his moments... like when he beat up the bald cuban girlyman who pissed him off.

On the extreme opposite is Holyfield, a guy who managed to be competative with Bowe and beat Tyson.... Holyfield was in fact an overachiever as compared to the first group above.

Lewis maximized his talent which was considerable. How talented was Lewis? well one could argue that only his fear made the fights with Holy even close and Lewis won those fights easily. Basically Lewis was a talented heavy weight who won his fights, usually safely, though what he did to Ruddock and Golota for example was impressive.

So the facts apply to different circumstances with these guys. What makes the order possible is how and what conditions apply to when these guys met in the ring. Other's have covered those condition thoroughly. Lewis dominated the most guys, Bowe the least. The only thing remaining to the order is special circumstances:

a) Bowe. None really, I look at Razor Ruddock and Bowe similarly.

b) Holyfield. None really. Did the most with what he had.

c) Lewis. One of the best to grace the ring. Fought all comers. A little inconsistant at times but otherwise a great heavyweight.

d) Tyson. Tyson's dominance in the division was unprecedented. Amazingly Tyson was not a big heavyweight. Tyson did not beat his opponents, he destroyed them. At his peak the rest of the division could not be competative with Tyson. Even When Douglas beat him he almost got Ko'ed doing it. Nobody could even last with Tyson, accept if they were a big heavyweight and then they could survive the fight at best.

A lot of people thought that at his best, Tyson may have been the most dominant heavyweight ever. I think it is possible. His speed, his power in both hands and his ring knowledge made him, at his best the heavyweight to beat.... period.

Here is my order accordingly:

1) Tyson
A tie
1) Lewis

2) Holyfield

3) Bowe
A tie
3) Ruddock

[REEDsART]

When you factor in this decade there's no f'n way Holyfield has had a better, or greater career than Lewis. Please.
So the Fact that Holy is 97 & STILL Active DIMINISHES his Accomplishments???:dunno:

UNDISPUTED @ 2 Weights, UNDEFEATED & the G.O.A.T. @ 1 of those Weights...Multiple Time Heavyweight Champion...BETTER Resume...

REED would Most Certainly Pick Lennox OVER Holy Head to Head (8 Out of 10 Times), but N Terms of GREATNESS, Holy's Done More...



REED:hammert:

[steve_dave]

So the Fact that Holy is 97 & STILL Active DIMINISHES his Accomplishments???:dunno:

UNDISPUTED @ 2 Weights, UNDEFEATED & the G.O.A.T. @ 1 of those Weights...Multiple Time Heavyweight Champion...BETTER Resume...

REED would Most Certainly Pick Lennox OVER Holy Head to Head (8 Out of 10 Times), but N Terms of GREATNESS, Holy's Done More...



REED:hammert:

G.O.A.T by default at cruiser. Holyfield is easily the least accomplished "GOAT" at any weight, ever.

He was heavyweight champion twice, just like Lewis.

And he has been pissing on his legacy for 10 years.

Holy at cruiser probably shouldn't be a part of this debate, but I guess when you factor that in he's pretty close with Lewis.

[dsimon3387]

dsimon writes:

The thing is that people forget so fast. It amazes me. Ali was the last heavyweight as dominant when he was on top as Tyson. Lewis was a legitimate great but was never as dominant. AS a matter of fact relationship wise Ali: Holmes is in many ways analogous to Tyson: Lewis.

History is such that now people are saying that Holmes is as good as Ali... and that is true! But socially Ali and Tyson were dominant in a way that few heavyweights were. And n both instances Homes and Lewis, the proverbial father was killed (Freudian analogy).... Tyson and Ali were dismantled by their protage'

My point is that people can get on this forum now and somehow diminish Tyson's impact...

To which I say: There is no way when Tyson was on top that anyone would think twice about saying he was the most unbeatable champ in history... Unlike with Lewis the older guys who had seen some of the greats were often of the opinion that Tyson was the best. If Lewis had come before Tyson I doubt anyone would have thought he would beat Mike at Mike's prime.

[steve_dave]

dsimon writes:

The thing is that people forget so fast. It amazes me. Ali was the last heavyweight as dominant when he was on top as Tyson. Lewis was a legitimate great but was never as dominant. AS a matter of fact relationship wise Ali: Holmes is in many ways analogous to Tyson: Lewis.

History is such that now people are saying that Holmes is as good as Ali... and that is true! But socially Ali and Tyson were dominant in a way that few heavyweights were. And n both instances Homes and Lewis, the proverbial father was killed (Freudian analogy).... Tyson and Ali were dismantled by their protage'

My point is that people can get on this forum now and somehow diminish Tyson's impact...

Impact and what you have actually done in the ring are two separate things, D.

As it unfolded, Lewis ended up being way more "unbeatable" than Tyson.

[dsimon3387]

Impact and what you have actually done in the ring are two separate things, D.

As it unfolded, Lewis ended up being way more "unbeatable" than Tyson.

dsimon writes:

Not necessarily. We have heavyweight champions who are unbeaten, athletic prodigies, boxers and punchers. Dominance at the top is a measure of what guy when he was at his best was the best.

Lewis was not more unbeatable than Tyson, he was more consistant and a great fighter. If you took the period when they were on top and compared them most people would assume Tyson would win.

I say this as a fan of Lewis. Lewis was dominant in other ways and yes he was a great champ.

[Xplosive]

Tyson was become so underrated its pathetic! I hope in years to come when the heavyweight division gets more and more shitty people start to appreciate how special Tyson was.

[steve_dave]

dsimon writes:

Not necessarily. We have heavyweight champions who are unbeaten, athletic prodigies, boxers and punchers. Dominance at the top is a measure of what guy when he was at his best was the best.

Lewis was not more unbeatable than Tyson, he was more consistant and a great fighter. If you took the period when they were on top and compared them most people would assume Tyson would win.

I say this as a fan of Lewis. Lewis was dominant in other ways and yes he was a great champ.

Right, that's fair for sure. I wouldn't disagree that most would pick Tyson over Lewis at their respective peaks.

Looking back at their careers, however, one guy beat everyone he ever fought and it wasn't Tyson.

[steve_dave]

Tyson was become so underrated its pathetic! I hope in years to come when the heavyweight division gets more and more shitty people start to appreciate how special Tyson was.

I appreciate Tyson. I re-watch my old Tyson library all the time. He was awesome.

I simply see things too clearly and without bias, I guess. :lol:

[Mitchell Kane]

Tyson was become so underrated its pathetic! I hope in years to come when the heavyweight division gets more and more shitty people start to appreciate how special Tyson was.

Agreed. It seems like it's rarely even given much consideration that he didn't fight for four years during what would have been near-prime years in his mid to late 20's.

I think Teddy Atlas deserves a great deal of credit for the diminishment of Tyson.

[Octopus]

bowe's career and potential greatness were ruined by the two H's. hunger and holyfield.


It's Hamburgers and Holyfield:nono:

[steve_dave]

Agreed. It seems like it's rarely even given much consideration that he didn't fight for four years during what would have been near-prime years in his mid to late 20's.

I think Teddy Atlas deserves a great deal of credit for the diminishment of Tyson.

I think the Douglas loss has a lot to do with that. If he was undefeated when they locked him up I think you would see way more "what ifs"

[steve_dave]

It's Hamburgers and Holyfield:nono:

Bowe preferred seafood.

[Inside Whiskey's sister 24/7]

Prime for Prime who beats who?? :dunno:


I always thought that a prime Tyson would KO Lewis TFO
.....but still get pummeled by Holyfield...

so Prime vs. Prime...

Tyson beat Lewis...
Bowe beat Holy
Lewis beat Bowe
Holyfield beat Tyson...


QUESTION....when was LENNOX LEWIS prime??? The mid-late 90's...or 2000's when he beat HOLY/TYSON/GRANT/TUA..etc...




IMO the 2000's LEWIS would have a better chance at beating PRIME Holyfield/Tyson....he seem to be steadier on his feet..a bit heavy..and didn't move as much as the younger LL...

[steve_dave]

Prime for Prime who beats who?? :dunno:


I always thought that a prime Tyson would KO Lewis TFO
.....but still get pummeled by Holyfield...

so Prime vs. Prime...

Tyson beat Lewis...
Bowe beat Holy
Lewis beat Bowe
Holyfield beat Tyson...


QUESTION....when was LENNOX LEWIS prime??? The mid-late 90's...or 2000's when he beat HOLY/TYSON/GRANT/TUA..etc...




IMO the 2000's LEWIS would have a better chance at beating PRIME Holyfield/Tyson....he seem to be steadier on his feet..a bit heavy..and didn't move as much as the younger LL...

Lewis was so good for so long that it's hard to say... but I would say he peaked around 1997 or 98.

[Mitchell Kane]

Prime for Prime who beats who?? :dunno:


I always thought that a prime Tyson would KO Lewis TFO
.....but still get pummeled by Holyfield...

so Prime vs. Prime...

Tyson beat Lewis...
Bowe beat Holy
Lewis beat Bowe
Holyfield beat Tyson...


QUESTION....when was LENNOX LEWIS prime??? The mid-late 90's...or 2000's when he beat HOLY/TYSON/GRANT/TUA..etc...




IMO the 2000's LEWIS would have a better chance at beating PRIME Holyfield/Tyson....he seem to be steadier on his feet..a bit heavy..and didn't move as much as the younger LL...

Holyfield, who slugged it out with Foreman, went to war Cooper (in which he was knocked down), and beaten in a slugfest by Bowe (in which he was knocked down), would have pummeled a prime Tyson?

I think Holyfield, pre-Steward during his first heavyweight championship run, would've been over-powered and knocked out by Tyson.

[steve_dave]

Holyfield, who slugged it out with Foreman, went to war Cooper (in which he was knocked down), and beaten in a slugfest by Bowe (in which he was knocked down), would have pummeled a prime Tyson?

I think Holyfield, pre-Steward during his first heavyweight championship run, would've been over-powered and knocked out by Tyson.

Yeah, he came in A LOT lighter back then too. If memory serves, he came in at 205 for the first Bowe fight. By the time he fought Tyson he was closer to 220.

Holyfield was too tough for his own good at the beginning of his heavyweight reign and he benefited from beating an easy champion and a pretty sub-par group of contenders before losing to Bowe.

[Mitchell Kane]

Yeah, he came in A LOT lighter back then too. If memory serves, he came in at 205 for the first Bowe fight. By the time he fought Tyson he was closer to 220.

Holyfield was too tough for his own good at the beginning of his heavyweight reign and he benefited from beating an easy champion and a pretty sub-par group of contenders before losing to Bowe.

Yeah. I think it's under-estimated how much he changed after that first Bowe defeat, when he brought in Manny Steward and bulked up for the Stewart and Bowe rematches.

Holyfield actually started using some of the same tactics Lewis and Klitschko are criticised for. :lol:

[steve_dave]

Yeah. I think it's under-estimated how much he changed after that first Bowe defeat, when he brought in Manny Steward and bulked up for the Stewart and Bowe rematches.

Holyfield actually started using some of the same tactics Lewis and Klitschko are criticised for. :lol:

Holyfield's game plan for the first Tyson fight was not legal, that's for sure. :lol:

But I agree with you 100%. I've always had a ton of respect for the way he handled the Bowe rematch. That was his only fight with Steward, right?

Until Lewis lost to Rahman, Manny had an AMAZING track record in heavyweight title fights. He was also on the winning side of both McCall/Lewis fights.

[Mitchell Kane]

Holyfield's game plan for the first Tyson fight was not legal, that's for sure. :lol:

But I agree with you 100%. I've always had a ton of respect for the way he handled the Bowe rematch. That was his only fight with Steward, right?

Until Lewis lost to Rahman, Manny had an AMAZING track record in heavyweight title fights. He was also on the winning side of both McCall/Lewis fights.

The Bowe fight and the Alex Stewart rematch.

Atlas ended getting most of the credit for Michael Moorer but I sorta consider him more of Steward's heavyweight champion as well.:lol:

[REEDsART]

G.O.A.T by default at cruiser. Holyfield is easily the least accomplished "GOAT" at any weight, ever.

He was heavyweight champion twice, just like Lewis.

And he has been pissing on his legacy for 10 years.

Holy at cruiser probably shouldn't be a part of this debate, but I guess when you factor that in he's pretty close with Lewis.
By "Default"???:dunno:

Guys like Carlos DeLeon, Al Cole & Vassily Jirov had LENGTHY Reigns @ Crusier...Is Calzaghe @ Supermiddle Any More of an Accomplished GOAT than Holy @ Crusier???...:dunno:...BETTER Fighters than Calzaghe Campaigned @ 168 (Roy, Toney, Leonard, Hearns), yet he Gets GOAT Status Based on his LONGEVITY...

MOST Great Fighters Piss on their Legacies, So to Speak, but it's NOT Held Against Them...Ali LOST 3 of his Last 4 Fights, yet NOBODY Cares...Sugar Ray Robinson & Joe Louis Went Out N LESS than Stellar Fashion...Ray Leonard was DESTROYED by Hector Camacho of All People...

REED Doesn't Think Holy's (Or Any Other Fighters) Past Prime Exploits Should B Held AGAINST him...

Sure, it SUCKS that he's Still STUBBORN Enough to Think he's Relevant, but that has NO Bearing on what he's ALREADY Accomplished...

REED:hammert:

[steve_dave]

The Bowe fight and the Alex Stewart rematch.

Hmm, don't remember that. To be honest with you, along with the Oquendo fight, I think Holyfield/Stewart II is the only Holyfield fight I haven't seen. I have his entire career somewhere in my closet, is it worth a watch?

[steve_dave]

By "Default"???:dunno:

Guys like Carlos DeLeon, Al Cole & Vassily Jirov had LENGTHY Reigns @ Crusier...Is Calzaghe @ Supermiddle Any More of an Accomplished GOAT than Holy @ Crusier???...:dunno:...BETTER Fighters than Calzaghe Campaigned @ 168 (Roy, Toney, Leonard, Hearns), yet he Gets GOAT Status Based on his LONGEVITY...

MOST Great Fighters Piss on their Legacies, So to Speak, but it's NOT Held Against Them...Ali LOST 3 of his Last 4 Fights, yet NOBODY Cares...Sugar Ray Robinson & Joe Louis Went Out N LESS than Stellar Fashion...Ray Leonard was DESTROYED by Hector Camacho of All People...

REED Doesn't Think Holy's (Or Any Other Fighters) Past Prime Exploits Should B Held AGAINST him...

Sure, it SUCKS that he's Still STUBBORN Enough to Think he's Relevant, but that has NO Bearing on what he's ALREADY Accomplished...

REED:hammert:

I know what you're saying, REED, and I don't necessarily disagree - but Holyfield has taken shitting on your legacy to a whole new level. It's getting to the point where he's been shit for almost as long as he was good. :lol:

[Mitchell Kane]

Hmm, don't remember that. To be honest with you, along with the Oquendo fight, I think Holyfield/Stewart II is the only Holyfield fight I haven't seen. I have his entire career somewhere in my closet, is it worth a watch?

Not really. :lol:

At least for entertainment value. In that sense, it's somewhat unwatchable, to be honest.

A bit like the Holmes fight.

But in terms of seeing him change, it's worth watching.

[steve_dave]

Not really. :lol:

Somewhat unwatchable, to be honest.

A bit like the Holmes fight.

Thanks. :lol:

I my favorite part of Holyfield/Holmes is the pre-fight intros. Buffer introduces Holmes as a former champ with 15 defenses, and Larry walks right up to the mic and yells "TWENTY"

[steve_dave]

Not really. :lol:

At least for entertainment value. In that sense, it's somewhat unwatchable, to be honest.

A bit like the Holmes fight.

But in terms of seeing him change, it's worth watching.

Caught your edit, thanks.

[Mitchell Kane]

Thanks. :lol:

I my favorite part of Holyfield/Holmes is the pre-fight intros. Buffer introduces Holmes as a former champ with 15 defenses, and Larry walks right up to the mic and yells "TWENTY"

That was easier to watch than him throwing up. :lol:

[steve_dave]

That was easier to watch than him throwing up. :lol:

Holmes was pretty f'n competitive that night too.

[REEDsART]

Agreed. It seems like it's rarely even given much consideration that he didn't fight for four years during what would have been near-prime years in his mid to late 20's.

I think Teddy Atlas deserves a great deal of credit for the diminishment of Tyson.
agREED...

REED Actually LIKES Teddy Atlas & Considering their History, REED DOESN'T Blame Atlas 1 Bit for LOATHING Tyson as he Does, but the FACT Is, Teddy has Done EVERYTHING N his Power to UNDERMINE All that Tyson has Done...

Teddy Even Go's Sooooo Far as to CRITICIZE Cus D'Amato N the Process...

Teddy's Generally "FAIR but Firm", but when it Comes to Tyson, Atlas is INCAPABLE of Being Objective...



REED:mj:

[Mitchell Kane]

agREED...

REED Actually LIKES Teddy Atlas & Considering their History, REED DOESN'T Blame Atlas 1 Bit for LOATHING Tyson as he Does, but the FACT Is, Teddy has Done EVERYTHING N his Power to UNDERMINE All that Tyson has Done...

Teddy Even Go's Sooooo Far as to CRITICIZE Cus D'Amato N the Process...

Teddy's Generally "FAIR but Firm", but when it Comes to Tyson, Atlas is INCAPABLE of Being Objective...



REED:mj:

Yeah, and then he picks him to beat Lewis.:lol:

I never quite understood it.

But he's certainly become the accepted narrator of Tyson's career.

[Erratic]

Yeah, and then he picks him to beat Lewis.:lol:

I never quite understood it.

But he's certainly become the accepted narrator of Tyson's career.

I remember Teddy actually picking Lewis to beat Tyson, but it seemed as if he thought Tyson would win. He kept talking throughout this program about how Lewis could get knocked out if he did this and did that.

Then when it came time to pick a prediction, his reasoning for picking Lewis had nothing to do with tactics or boxing. It was "I believe good will happen for the good of the sport" or some shit.

I don't blame Atlas for disliking Tyson, but Atlas is annoying anyway.

And an overrated trainer and "motivator".

[Mitchell Kane]

I remember Teddy actually picking Lewis to beat Tyson, but it seemed as if he thought Tyson would win. He kept talking throughout this program about how Lewis could get knocked out if he did this and did that.

Then when it came time to pick a prediction, his reasoning for picking Lewis had nothing to do with tactics or boxing. It was "I believe good will happen for the good of the sport" or some shit.

I don't blame Atlas for disliking Tyson, but Atlas is annoying anyway.

And an overrated trainer and "motivator".

Well, I may be wrong, but from what I remember, he changed his pick during the week of the fight.

[dsimon3387]

Right, that's fair for sure. I wouldn't disagree that most would pick Tyson over Lewis at their respective peaks.

Looking back at their careers, however, one guy beat everyone he ever fought and it wasn't Tyson.

dsimon writes:

Yes one way to look at the analysis is that measure. Lewis deserves a lot of props for that achievment.

What is nice is that people are realizing how good Lewis is now. Lewis never got respect when he was at the top of the division and he damn well deserved respect.

[dsimon3387]

Holyfield, who slugged it out with Foreman, went to war Cooper (in which he was knocked down), and beaten in a slugfest by Bowe (in which he was knocked down), would have pummeled a prime Tyson?

I think Holyfield, pre-Steward during his first heavyweight championship run, would've been over-powered and knocked out by Tyson.

dsimon writes:

Agreed. Holy was strong and game but Tyson's hand speed was phenominal back then.

[dsimon3387]

The Bowe fight and the Alex Stewart rematch.

Atlas ended getting most of the credit for Michael Moorer but I sorta consider him more of Steward's heavyweight champion as well.:lol:

dsimon writes:

Fuck yeah! :cheer: Moore was the top dog at Kronk Gym for a long time. And he was considered the atchetype of the michigan style represented by Kronk... a fighters fighter and Manny had a lot to do with that.

[broadwayjoe]

Dsimon writes:

I never thought much of Bowe. But it gets interesting because if you compare a cerain way, in terms of talent and ability at the top of their game, then Bowe and Razor Ruddock and Tyson all have the characteristic of being potentially a lot stronger than their career would indicate. And Bowe did have his moments... like when he beat up the bald cuban girlyman who pissed him off.

en the extreme opposite is Holyfield, a guy who managed to be compettive with Bowe and beat Tyson.... Holyfield was in fact an overachiever as compared to the first group above.

Lewis maximized his talent which was considerable. How talented was Lewis? well one could argue that only his fear made the fights with Holy even close and Lewis won those fights easily. Basically Lewis was a talented heavy weight who won his fights, usually safely, though what he did to Ruddock and Golota for example was impressive.

So the facts apply to different circumstances with these guys. What makes the order possible is how and what conditions apply to when these guys met in the ring. Other's have covered those condition thoroughly. Lewis dominated the most guys, Bowe the least. The only thing remaining to the order is special circumstances:

a) Bowe. None really, I look at Razor Ruddock and Bowe similarly.

b) Holyfield. None really. Did the most with what he had.

c) Lewis. One of the best to grace the ring. Fought all comers. A little inconsistant at times but otherwise a great heavyweight.

d) Tyson. Tyson's dominance in the division was unprecedented. Amazingly Tyson was not a big heavyweight. Tyson did not beat his opponents, he destroyed them. At his peak the rest of the division could not be competative with Tyson. Even When Douglas beat him he almost got Ko'ed doing it. Nobody could even last with Tyson, accept if they were a big heavyweight and then they could survive the fight at best.

A lot of people thought that at his best, Tyson may have been the most dominant heavyweight ever. I think it is possible. His speed, his power in both hands and his ring knowledge made him, at his best the heavyweight to beat.... period.

Here is my order accordingly:

1) Tyson
A tie
1) Lewis

2) Holyfield

3) Bowe
A tie
3) Ruddock

Ruddock?? What did he ever do in his career that you want to shoe-horn him into this topic except get his ass kicked by Tyson and Lewis? Bowe was a much better fighter than Ruddock and going 2-1 (and the loss was close) against Holyfield is miles ahead of anything Ruddock ever accomplished.

[Xplosive]

Ruddock?? What did he ever do in his career that you want to shoe-horn him into this topic except get his ass kicked by Tyson and Lewis? Bowe was a much better fighter than Ruddock and going 2-1 (and the loss was close) against Holyfield is miles ahead of anything Ruddock ever accomplished.

I agree that accomplished wise Bowe shits on Ruddock. And Bowe was a better fighter.

Stylewise however, I think Ruddock would have been a tough fight for Bowe. Ive always felt that way.

Bowe's power wasnt on the level of Tyson, or Lewis. Add that to the fact that Bowe was a sucker for left hooks, and Ruddock's was murderous.

Razor would have been a VERY dangerous fight for Bowe IMO.

[Erratic]

Well, I may be wrong, but from what I remember, he changed his pick during the week of the fight.

I think Atlas also changed his pick for Mayweather-De La Hoya.

[Erratic]

I agree that accomplished wise Bowe shits on Ruddock. And Bowe was a better fighter.

Stylewise however, I think Ruddock would have been a tough fight for Bowe. Ive always felt that way.

Bowe's power wasnt on the level of Tyson, or Lewis. Add that to the fact that Bowe was a sucker for left hooks, and Ruddock's was murderous.

Razor would have been a VERY dangerous fight for Bowe IMO.

I'd say most punchers would be very dangerous for Bowe. Bowe seemed to have a good chin, but didn't face a lot of big punchers. The biggest punchers he did face, Golota and Hide, hurt him numerous times.

Maybe that played a role in him or his management, not facing Lewis.

[Tam Tam]

Bowe's biggest problem is that all those good fighters would hit Riddick with whatever they threw. Riddick's chin was good, but not great and when he ate shots, he took them flush and in high numbers. It's no suprise he ended up with brain damage.

You don't beat punchers by letting them hit you with their best shots.

[Free Ike]

Bowe's biggest problem is that all those good fighters would hit Riddick with whatever they threw. Riddick's chin was good, but not great and when he ate shots, he took them flush and in high numbers. It's no suprise he ended up with brain damage.

You don't beat punchers by letting them hit you with their best shots.
I agree with this. I never saw what people saw in Bowe. His defense was putrid. He was a very tough guy. He also had an ego in the ring. He was lazy. I never saw the skill set people saw. He would give up his considerable height and reach and lay on the inside. He had coordination for his size, but he was in the limelight much longer than he deserved with his putrid level of opposition.

[Xplosive]

Bowe's biggest problem is that all those good fighters would hit Riddick with whatever they threw. Riddick's chin was good, but not great and when he ate shots, he took them flush and in high numbers. It's no suprise he ended up with brain damage.

You don't beat punchers by letting them hit you with their best shots.

Agreed. Him taking flush shots like that from Lewis, or Tyson would have been suicide. But then again, Bowe had the punch to ice Lewis also. The differance is, at least Lummox attempted to avoid punches. Bowe never did.

Tyson would have KO'd Bowe w/no doubt. It woulda been a war, but Tyson was the bigger puncher with the better chin, AND better handspeed and defense. Bowe wouldnt see past round 6 with Tyson.

[joony]

although i would favor tyson over bowe, tyson has never fought anyone as good as bowe and won.

i would've favored bowe to knock lewis out had they fought when the match was first talked about.

i hate holyfield but he is the best of this list.

[Rainmaker]

The most obvious list:

1. Lewis
2. Holyfield
3. Tyson
4. Bowe

[Xplosive]

although i would favor tyson over bowe, tyson has never fought anyone as good as bowe and won.

i would've favored bowe to knock lewis out had they fought when the match was first talked about.

i hate holyfield but he is the best of this list.

Tyson's overall resume is better than Bowe's. Outside of Holy, who the hell did Bowe beat?

He got a disputed decision over Tony Tubbs. The same Tubbs that Tyson obliterated in 2 rounds.

Tyson's wins over Ruddock, Bruno, Biggs, Thomas, Tucker, and Spinks BLOW AWAY Bowe's resume if you take out Holy.

And the opposite is also true. Bowe never faced anyone like Tyson. Holy didnt bring Tyson's firepower, and handspeed to the table.

Tyson from 86-89 was a great fighter.

Bowe was a great fighter for ONE night.

Not to mention.... Bowe was scared of Tyson.

[Free Ike]

Tyson's overall resume is better than Bowe's. Outside of Holy, who the hell did Bowe beat?

He got a disputed decision over Tony Tubbs. The same Tubbs that Tyson obliterated in 2 rounds.

And the opposite is also true. Bowe never faced anyone like Tyson. Holy didnt bring Tyson's firepower, and handspeed to the table.

Tyson from 86-89 was a great fighter.

Bowe was a great fighter for ONE night.

Not to mention.... Bowe was scared of Tyson.

He was also terrified of Lennox Lewis. His ducking of Lewis was the single most cowardly act in Boxing history outside of the ring.
I think Joony's contention that Bowe would kayo Lewis is ridiculous. He must have missed theGold medal match in the amies. Lewis made Bowe quit. Lewis had Bowe beat before they ever met which is why Bowe refused to fight him even though he agreed to fight the winner of Lewis/Ruddock.

[Xplosive]

He was also terrified of Lennox Lewis. His ducking of Lewis was the single most cowardly act in Boxing history outside of the ring.
I think Joony's contention that Bowe would kayo Lewis is ridiculous. He must have missed theGold medal match in the amies. Lewis made Bowe quit. Lewis had Bowe beat before they ever met which is why Bowe refused to fight him even though he agreed to fight the winner of Lewis/Ruddock.

Lewis was pretty inconsistent early in his career. I think Bowe at his best would beat the Lewis that fought Bruno.

However, the Lewis that beat Ruddock KO's any Bowe in the mid rounds.

I dont think Bowe was all that scared of Lewis. If he was, he wouldnt have gotten in his face after the first Holy fight. If Bowe ever got in Tyson's face like that, Mike would have Mitch Green'd him.

So I dont think Bowe was scared of Lewis. But perhaps Rock Newman was scared of Lewis, and didnt let Bowe fight him.

[Erratic]

I agree with this. I never saw what people saw in Bowe. His defense was putrid. He was a very tough guy. He also had an ego in the ring. He was lazy. I never saw the skill set people saw. He would give up his considerable height and reach and lay on the inside. He had coordination for his size, but he was in the limelight much longer than he deserved with his putrid level of opposition.

Well, I did think he was pretty talented and had good abilities. He had a very good workrate and inside skills. His uppercut was terrific and his stamina was good. He was going strong after 12 in the rematch with Holyfield, even when he didn't train like he should've and carrying 11 extra pounds in his stomach (compared to the first fight).

As what has been said, his problem (inside the ring) was his lack of defense. And as you said, he'd give up his reach and height and lay on the inside.

As was the case for other taller fighters such as Corrales and Margarito, I think that's where he excelled. He was better up close than at range. His defense seemed better up close. I saw him get hit so often from the outside or mid-range, more so than laying on the inside.

[Erratic]

Lewis was pretty inconsistent early in his career. I think Bowe at his best would beat the Lewis that fought Bruno.

However, the Lewis that beat Ruddock KO's any Bowe in the mid rounds.

I dont think Bowe was all that scared of Lewis. If he was, he wouldnt have gotten in his face after the first Holy fight. If Bowe ever got in Tyson's face like that, Mike would have Mitch Green'd him.

So I dont think Bowe was scared of Lewis. But perhaps Rock Newman was scared of Lewis, and didnt let Bowe fight him.

I think Rock Newman wanted Riddick Bowe to make easy money on HBO against guys like Michael Dokes, Jesse Ferguson, and a supposedly soft touch in a rematch with Evander Holyfield.

I don't think Bowe himself was scared. I rarely do when it comes to fighters.

[Xplosive]

I think Rock Newman wanted Riddick Bowe to make easy money on HBO against guys like Michael Dokes, Jesse Ferguson, and a supposedly soft touch in a rematch with Evander Holyfield.

I don't think Bowe himself was scared. I rarely do when it comes to fighters.

Agreed. Bowe was probably the first fighter to milk an HBO contract. Newman wanted him having no parts of Lewis, and if Tyson didnt go to jail, Newman woulda probably avoided Mike also.

Bowe cant be compared to Tyson because Mike pretty much cleaned out the entire division in the late 80's. He was consistent in his short prime.

Bowe was never consistent.

[Mitchell Kane]

I think Rock Newman wanted Riddick Bowe to make easy money on HBO against guys like Michael Dokes, Jesse Ferguson, and a supposedly soft touch in a rematch with Evander Holyfield.

I don't think Bowe himself was scared. I rarely do when it comes to fighters.

I think Rock Newman also liked his status when Bowe was the champion, going on world tours and what not.

Also, it's not like he would've fought Ferguson had Mercer not laid an egg against him in the Garden.

[Neil]

wow, now bowe quit against lewis in their am fight. the truth gets lost along the way over the years. that was a joke of a stoppage, and in no way did bowe quit.

[Free Ike]

Lewis was pretty inconsistent early in his career. I think Bowe at his best would beat the Lewis that fought Bruno.

However, the Lewis that beat Ruddock KO's any Bowe in the mid rounds.

I dont think Bowe was all that scared of Lewis. If he was, he wouldnt have gotten in his face after the first Holy fight. If Bowe ever got in Tyson's face like that, Mike would have Mitch Green'd him.

So I dont think Bowe was scared of Lewis. But perhaps Rock Newman was scared of Lewis, and didnt let Bowe fight him.
Ridiculous. He did with security around and on tv. It speaks volumes that he refused to fight him. You must have missed the Godl medal match. In the ring, Lewis made Bowe quit like a dog. Bowe got Dq'd and he looked like a kid who was told not to pass notes. He wanted out bad. Btw, the Lewis that beat Rudduock WAS the guy Bowe was going to face.

[Xplosive]

Ridiculous. He did with security around and on tv. It speaks volumes that he refused to fight him. You must have missed the Godl medal match. In the ring, Lewis made Bowe quit like a dog. Bowe got Dq'd and he looked like a kid who was told not to pass notes. He wanted out bad. Btw, the Lewis that beat Rudduock WAS the guy Bowe was going to face.

I know what happened in the Gold Medal match. But its like Bowe got in Lummox's face with security in between them. He and Lummox were practically nose-to-nose. If Lummox had swung on him, security wouldnt have time to break it. I mean, its not like we're talking middleweights here. These are two 6'5", 240 pound men. Security would have had HELL breaking them lose if a real fight broke out, and alot of security coulda gotten hurt.

Bowe probably knew Lewis' personality though. He's not the type to swing first, unless Bowe hit him first(which he wouldnt have done).

Like I said... if that was Tyson instead, Bowe woulda never done it. Security or no security. Cause we all know Mike didnt give a fuck... he woulda swung on Bowe right then.

[joony]

He was also terrified of Lennox Lewis. His ducking of Lewis was the single most cowardly act in Boxing history outside of the ring.
I think Joony's contention that Bowe would kayo Lewis is ridiculous. He must have missed theGold medal match in the amies. Lewis made Bowe quit. Lewis had Bowe beat before they ever met which is why Bowe refused to fight him even though he agreed to fight the winner of Lewis/Ruddock.

i watched the bowe-lewis fight here in seoul when i lived here.

lewis was a much more experienced amateur by the time they fought. bowe just a kid.

lewis lost to ruddock and biggs in amateurs, but he proved be better than both in the pro ranks didnt he? how is it ridiculous to say that bowe wouldnt have fared better in the pro ranks?

like Xplosive said, lewis was inconsistent early in his career. he took more risks considering he was capable of being KOed early in his career, which made him more watchable than when he soon hooked up w/ steward, the same guy who trained mccall when he stopped lewis in 2.

[Free Ike]

I know what happened in the Gold Medal match. But its like Bowe got in Lummox's face with security in between them. He and Lummox were practically nose-to-nose. If Lummox had swung on him, security wouldnt have time to break it. I mean, its not like we're talking middleweights here. These are two 6'5", 240 pound men. Security would have had HELL breaking them lose if a real fight broke out, and alot of security coulda gotten hurt.

Bowe probably knew Lewis' personality though. He's not the type to swing first, unless Bowe hit him first(which he wouldnt have done).

Like I said... if that was Tyson instead, Bowe woulda never done it. Security or no security. Cause we all know Mike didnt give a fuck... he woulda swung on Bowe right then.
Ridiculous. How about promising to fight Lewis and then not doing it. Bowe knew Lewis would laugh at it and he did. Lewis just said he was going to knock him out. I disagree. Bowe would have sat on his stool. Bowe just decided to not put up a pretense and decided to sit on his stool before they fought.

[joony]

Tyson's overall resume is better than Bowe's. Outside of Holy, who the hell did Bowe beat?

He got a disputed decision over Tony Tubbs. The same Tubbs that Tyson obliterated in 2 rounds.

Tyson's wins over Ruddock, Bruno, Biggs, Thomas, Tucker, and Spinks BLOW AWAY Bowe's resume if you take out Holy.

And the opposite is also true. Bowe never faced anyone like Tyson. Holy didnt bring Tyson's firepower, and handspeed to the table.

Tyson from 86-89 was a great fighter.

Bowe was a great fighter for ONE night.

Not to mention.... Bowe was scared of Tyson.

tyson had a better resume, yes.

tubbs took bowe to school, but so what? a young tyson went through hell against that clincher james tillis.

either way, yea tyson probably beats bowe, but there isn't a single win that tyson has had (maybe w/ an exception of the Spinks win) that matches bowe's first win over holyfield.

[Free Ike]

tyson had a better resume, yes.

tubbs took bowe to school, but so what? a young tyson went through hell against that clincher james tillis.

either way, yea tyson probably beats bowe, but there isn't a single win that tyson has had (maybe w/ an exception of the Spinks win) that matches bowe's first win over holyfield.

Went through Hell, lol. He won 8 out of 10 rounds at worst.

[joony]

Went through Hell, lol. He won 8 out of 10 rounds at worst.

he looked fatigued towards the end and looked sloppy as fuck.

but why am i even taking your input into consideration. i'll take my opinion over your's any day of the week.

[steve_dave]

he looked fatigued towards the end and looked sloppy as fuck.

but why am i even taking your input into consideration. i'll take my opinion over your's any day of the week.

That's unfortunate.

[meetthefeebles]

Bowe was shit scared of Lennox Lewis, absolutely and without question. Lest we forget that rather than fight Lewis, as promised, he threw his belt in a BIN live on TV to advoid making good on his promise.

To suggest otherwise is to fly in the face of clear, undisputable FACT. If Bowe thought he could beat Lennox, he would have fought him. Instead, he vacated the HW championship of the world...:shit:

Tyson has become underrated, no question about that, but NO version of Tyson beats Lewis; absolutely none. Tyson's run as 'baddest man on the planet' came courtesy of beating a whole pile of mooks- NO version of Mike has beaten ANY fighter of the calibre of Lennox. Moreover, Lennox is too smart, savvy and BIG for Mike to beat- even a 1987-88 version of Tyson spends tweleve straight rounds eating Lennox's left jab on his way to a wide UD.

Mike was a boxing BULLY- he won most of his fights before his opponents got into the ring, and played on his opponents fear to beat the shit out fo them. Lewis was NEVER frightened of Tyson or anyone else, and when you stand up to Mike and didnt let him intimidate you, you had every chance. The first man to really try it was Douglas; a game but limited HW by any standards, and certainly nowhere NEAR Lewis in terms of skill, ability or anything else worth comapring.

And lest we forget the fact that Mike paid Lewis a whole pile of cash to sidestep him when it looked like he finally had no choice but to get into a ring with him. Instead of fighting Lewis, Mike fought a 'washed up Holyfield' expecting to find a man way past his best after the wars with Bowe. Ooops...:lol:

If you include Holy's reign at CW, then his career is better than Lewis's; just. But you only have to look at the shocking state of the HW division now to see just how good Lewis was at HW. Without him, that division is an absolute desert.

MTF

[dsimon3387]

Ruddock?? What did he ever do in his career that you want to shoe-horn him into this topic except get his ass kicked by Tyson and Lewis? Bowe was a much better fighter than Ruddock and going 2-1 (and the loss was close) against Holyfield is miles ahead of anything Ruddock ever accomplished.

dsimon writes:

See this is the shit that makes me crazy! When Rucock was coming up people thought as highly of him as Bowe and his record is about as impressive. He fought Tyson tough twice and Bowe fought holy tough a few times. Bowe chickened out and Ruddoc got beat by Lewis.

Everybody forgets that RR was a highly regarded fighter... Thats a fact, and he was about as good as Bowe was, which was why I brought him into the mix.

[Free Ike]

Bowe was shit scared of Lennox Lewis, absolutely and without question. Lest we forget that rather than fight Lewis, as promised, he threw his belt in a BIN live on TV to advoid making good on his promise.

To suggest otherwise is to fly in the face of clear, undisputable FACT. If Bowe thought he could beat Lennox, he would have fought him. Instead, he vacated the HW championship of the world...:shit:

Tyson has become underrated, no question about that, but NO version of Tyson beats Lewis; absolutely none. Tyson's run as 'baddest man on the planet' came courtesy of beating a whole pile of mooks- NO version of Mike has beaten ANY fighter of the calibre of Lennox. Moreover, Lennox is too smart, savvy and BIG for Mike to beat- even a 1987-88 version of Tyson spends tweleve straight rounds eating Lennox's left jab on his way to a wide UD.

Mike was a boxing BULLY- he won most of his fights before his opponents got into the ring, and played on his opponents fear to beat the shit out fo them. Lewis was NEVER frightened of Tyson or anyone else, and when you stand up to Mike and didnt let him intimidate you, you had every chance. The first man to really try it was Douglas; a game but limited HW by any standards, and certainly nowhere NEAR Lewis in terms of skill, ability or anything else worth comapring.

And lest we forget the fact that Mike paid Lewis a whole pile of cash to sidestep him when it looked like he finally had no choice but to get into a ring with him. Instead of fighting Lewis, Mike fought a 'washed up Holyfield' expecting to find a man way past his best after the wars with Bowe. Ooops...:lol:

If you include Holy's reign at CW, then his career is better than Lewis's; just. But you only have to look at the shocking state of the HW division now to see just how good Lewis was at HW. Without him, that division is an absolute desert.

MTF

This is simplistic. I don't want to overrate Mike's level of comp but he did murder people. His reputation as a bully is overrated. Bruno stood up to him. Others did as well. He just took them out. Douglas did it successful. What is weird is people say Tyson was a bully. Douglas beat the ever loving shit out of him and Tyson still kept coming. His prime was going to be short either way. I think a prime Mike may have beaten Lewis but I'd bet on Lewis.

[Xplosive]

This is simplistic. I don't want to overrate Mike's level of comp but he did murder people. His reputation as a bully is overrated. Bruno stood up to him. Others did as well. He just took them out. Douglas did it successful. What is weird is people say Tyson was a bully. Douglas beat the ever loving shit out of him and Tyson still kept coming. His prime was going to be short either way. I think a prime Mike may have beaten Lewis but I'd bet on Lewis.

Exactly. A bully is Mayorga, or Golota. Tyson had somewhat of a bully mentality, but combined it with SERIOUS power, speed, skill, and raw talent. I laugh when people act like ALL it took to beat Tyson is to stand up to him. If that was the case, Ruddock woulda beaten him both times, cause Razor wasnt intimidated by Mike in the LEAST bit. Tyson still beat the holy hell outta him twice.

Mike wasnt nearly as much of a dog as people think. He had heart. Not heart on the level of a Holyfield, or Corrales, but he was no bitch. He gets a pass for blatantly quitting against Williams, and McBride when he was an old, pathetic man. He also never made any excuses after his losses.

[meetthefeebles]

This is simplistic. I don't want to overrate Mike's level of comp but he did murder people. His reputation as a bully is overrated. Bruno stood up to him. Others did as well. He just took them out. Douglas did it successful. What is weird is people say Tyson was a bully. Douglas beat the ever loving shit out of him and Tyson still kept coming. His prime was going to be short either way. I think a prime Mike may have beaten Lewis but I'd bet on Lewis.

Agreed, Mike did murder people, but he murdered people who just weren't all that good.

Bruno? Come on. Frank was a big punch bag with a glass chin. Big hearted and a decent puncher, sure, but no more or less than that. Look at the second Tyson-Bruno fight; Frank was literally SHITTINg himself during the ringwalk, hence the quick, brutal stoppage.

I'm not saying that Mike wasn't couragous- he kept coming at Lewis until he could come no more as well as against Buster- but his wins came when he could intimidate people OUT of the ring before he went INTO the ring. When that failed (Holy, Buster, Lennox, some moolies late on), he lost.

Nor am I saying that Mike wasn't a GREAT HW, because he was. A top ten HW IMHO, at his best for sure.

However, I repeat- NO version of Mike beats Lewis. Lewis would have done to Mike what he did to Tua; shut him out by playing a safety first, 'hide behind a jab for 12 rounds' game. Mike was too small to get around Lennox's huge reach and size advantage. Prime or no.

MTF

[Xplosive]

Agreed, Mike did murder people, but he murdered people who just weren't all that good.

Bruno? Come on. Frank was a big punch bag with a glass chin. Big hearted and a decent puncher, sure, but no more or less than that. Look at the second Tyson-Bruno fight; Frank was literally SHITTINg himself during the ringwalk, hence the quick, brutal stoppage.

I'm not saying that Mike wasn't couragous- he kept coming at Lewis until he could come no more as well as against Buster- but his wins came when he could intimidate people OUT of the ring before he went INTO the ring. When that failed (Holy, Buster, Lennox, some moolies late on), he lost.

Nor am I saying that Mike wasn't a GREAT HW, because he was. A top ten HW IMHO, at his best for sure.

However, I repeat- NO version of Mike beats Lewis. Lewis would have done to Mike what he did to Tua; shut him out by playing a safety first, 'hide behind a jab for 12 rounds' game. Mike was too small to get around Lennox's huge reach and size advantage. Prime or no.

MTF

Well thats your opinion, and I respect it, but its a flat out INSULT to compare a young Tyson to that slob Tua. Tyson was lightyears quicker on his feet than Tua, and with better handspeed and jab. He'd have more success getting inside.

I'd pick the 88 Tyson over Lewis, but I admit... Lewis would have had a better chance at beating a prime Mike than Bowe would have had.

[meetthefeebles]

Well thats your opinion, and I respect it, but its a flat out INSULT to compare a young Tyson to that slob Tua. Tyson was lightyears quicker on his feet than Tua, and with better handspeed. He'd have more success getting inside.

I'd pick the 88 Tyson over Lewis, but I admit... Lewis would have had a better chance at beating a prime Mike than Bowe would have had.

I agree that he would have had more success inside than Tua did, and I agree that Tua is a class or two (at least) below a prime Mike, but the comparison is relevant because of the size and respective strengths (namely KO power).

When Tua fought Lennox many felt that his power would cause Lennox a lot of bother. Lennox neutralised it by using his superior reach, skills and jab. IMHO he would have done the same to Mike.

Because Mike never fought Lennox closer to his prime, when he has the chance, and instead PAID Lennox money to go away for a bit, these discussions will continue forever and a day, but the relevant facts are that:

1. Mike's 'prime' came courtesy of a lot of wins against averaage or slightly better than average opponents.

2. Mike lost every fight against the 'name' fighters of his generation that he faced.

3. Mike paid Lewis to go away rather than fight him so he could take a big money fight against Holy, who was presumed shot to pieces after the Bowe fights.

4. When Mike finally got round to fighting Lennox, who was by that time past his prime also, he lost brutally.

I'd pick Mike to beat Bowe and Holy in his prime, no worries, but he would not have beaten Lennox. He'd have a chance, in his prime, sure, but he would not have beaten him. If he thought himself that he could, why did he wait until both men were past their best to finally get round to taking the chance?

MTF

[Mitchell Kane]

Tyson was much better at getting inside and closing distance than Tua was, and his handspeed was far superior, and his punch variety was greater.

I don't really see the comparison beyond some of the obvious physical ones (like height/reach) and power.

[Neil]

the accomplishments of lewis get greater and greater.

this 88 olympic final was where he allegedly made bowe quit, and where bowe was disqualified. :lol: makes you wonder if some folk actually saw the bout.

[Xplosive]

Tyson was much better at getting inside and closing distance than Tua was, and his handspeed was far superior, and his punch variety was greater.

I don't really see the comparison beyond some of the obvious physical ones (like height/reach)

Tyson's power was better than Tua's as well. Tua never KO'd anyone with a proven chin.

Tyson fought alot of durable guys, and completely destroyed them.

[Neil]

tyson was a lot better than the best version of tua.

nevermind that tua had gained at least 20lbs and sat on his ranking fighting no hopers for 3 years prior to finally cashing out vs lewis. a worthless comparison

[Mitchell Kane]

Tyson's power was better than Tua's as well. Tua never KO'd anyone with a proven chin.

Tyson fought alot of durable guys, and completely destroyed them.

I think Tyson's speed and shiftiness would've really disrupted Lewis. His height would've been difficult to deal with.

Lewis was comfortable when he could dictate with his jab. He just wouldn't have been able to do that against Tyson like he did with Tua.

[dsimon3387]

Tyson was much better at getting inside and closing distance than Tua was, and his handspeed was far superior, and his punch variety was greater.

I don't really see the comparison beyond some of the obvious physical ones (like height/reach) and power.

dsimon writes:

You beat me to it brother. :bears:

yet the comparison to Tua is quite natural. Again: people were saying how Tua was the next Tyson, yada yada yada.

here is the one big difference. Tyson's attack was not dependent on reach or size. Tua's attack was hindered by his relative size and strength. In his prime Tyson never was neutralized by an opponent's size or reach. The best an opponent could do was last with Mike.

I think Lewis was big and skilled enough that he could be an interesting opponent for a prime Mike Tyson.

[LOK]

Tyson at his best and Lennox at his.. it's a mismatch.

Tyson KO's him

I mean.. you guys are talking about a guy who got STRETCHED by Rahman.. by one right hand..

Tyson at least when whupped it took a LOT..

Lennox has been stoppped by Rahman and Mcall..

what people talk about Tyson *his power*.. IMO it really wasn't that that made him great.. it was his speed..
Tyson's speed was RIDICULOUS in his prime.. head movement and handspeed.. he would get inside and stop Lemmon like a bum

[KaukipRrr]

Medusa Lewis, is by far and away the superior fighter, and is infact the greatest of all-time, little Mohammed Ali wouldn't stand a chance with his 1-2 clinch against a monster like Lewis with his eye splittin' pole vault jab,..

Medusa, and EASILY..

Tyson is dead last in this cluster.

[Free Ike]

the accomplishments of lewis get greater and greater.

this 88 olympic final was where he allegedly made bowe quit, and where bowe was disqualified. :lol: makes you wonder if some folk actually saw the bout.

I said he was dq'd. He was told by the ref if he lowered his head again that was it. Bowe lowered his head and then acted like he didn't give two shits that he was dq'd. At least comprehend the posts when you are stalking, tiny tim.

[joony]

lewis wasn't quick enough nor was his punches fluid enough to beat a young tyson. tyson would've fucked him up w/ an over right hand and knocked him out cold.

[LOK]

lewis wasn't quick enough nor was his punches fluid enough to beat a young tyson. tyson would've fucked him up w/ an over right hand and knocked him out cold.

:bears:

[broadwayjoe]

Dsimon writes:

Tyson did not beat his opponents, he destroyed them. At his peak the rest of the division could not be competative with Tyson. Even When Douglas beat him he almost got Ko'ed doing it. Nobody could even last with Tyson, accept if they were a big heavyweight and then they could survive the fight at best.


I would say that Douglas "almost getting KOed" against Tyson is a bit of an exaggeration.

[LOK]

I would say that Douglas "almost getting KOed" against Tyson is a bit of an exaggeration.


I wouldn't remember Don trying to get a immediate rematch as when watched on tape Douglas was down for like 14 seconds

[broadwayjoe]

I wouldn't remember Don trying to get a immediate rematch as when watched on tape Douglas was down for like 14 seconds

You're right...the ref should have stopped the fight when Douglas struggled to get to his feet and looked glazed as he (barely) stood in front of the ref with his mouthpiece in backwards. Oh, wait...that wasn't Douglas. Douglas was the one who appeared clear-headed as he followed the ref's count, got up in time and didn't look in danger of being stopped.

[steve_dave]

Douglas got up when he was supposed to based on the ref's count. And Douglas never looked like he was about to be stopped. He wasn't the one struggling to get up and putting his mouthpiece in backwards.

Yeah, HBO crushed the long count myth during their replay of the fight one week later.

[broadwayjoe]

I wouldn't remember Don trying to get a immediate rematch as when watched on tape Douglas was down for like 14 seconds

Douglas got up when he was supposed to based on the ref's count. And Douglas never looked like he was about to be stopped. He wasn't the one struggling to get up and putting his mouthpiece in backwards.

[Hanz]

lewis wasn't quick enough nor was his punches fluid enough to beat a young tyson. tyson would've fucked him up w/ an over right hand and knocked him out cold.

Lewis would've eaten the midget's asshole alive! You wanna talk about Lewis' punches not being fluid enough or quick enough? Go watch what he did to Ruddock and Golota! That sh*t came from nowhere, knocking these 240lb f*ckers on their asses with lightning right hands over the top. Tyson was a bitch, he was scared to sh*t of Lewis, he knew he had no shot. Not today nor in his prime. Lewis was just much too big, too strong, too much reach, too much power, too much everything.
AND he wasn't intimidated by Tyson like all those other pretenders Tyson beat up on. There's a reason Tyson ducked him for like 8 years.
Tyson's got no shot. Good little man don't beat good big man.

[Mitchell Kane]

Lewis would've eaten the midget's asshole alive! You wanna talk about Lewis' punches not being fluid enough or quick enough? Go watch what he did to Ruddock and Golota! That sh*t came from nowhere, knocking these 240lb f*ckers on their asses with lightning right hands over the top. Tyson was a bitch, he was scared to sh*t of Lewis, he knew he had no shot. Not today nor in his prime. Lewis was just much too big, too strong, too much reach, too much power, too much everything.
AND he wasn't intimidated by Tyson like all those other pretenders Tyson beat up on. There's a reason Tyson ducked him for like 8 years.
Tyson's got no shot. Good little man don't beat good big man.

Ruddock and Golota were bigger targets and slower.

They don't prove much in this discussion.

[Hanz]

Ruddock and Golota were bigger targets and slower.

They don't prove much in this discussion.

F*ck you on about? Tyson's head is as big as Ruddock's. And that's what Lewis blew to Kingdom Come with 1 f*cking shot. Lewis would kill the little man. Much too big, much too good. Tyson doesn't have the chin to keep trying to get inside. He'd get tagged hard and would lose his confidence and get scared when he sees this big motherf*cker ain't intimidated.

[Mitchell Kane]

F*ck you on about? Tyson's head is as big as Ruddock's. And that's what Lewis blew to Kingdom Come with 1 f*cking shot. Lewis would kill the little man. Much too big, much too good. Tyson doesn't have the chin to keep trying to get inside. He'd get tagged hard and would lose his confidence and get scared when he sees this big motherf*cker ain't intimidated.

Yes, Lewis knocks out Tyson because of head size.

[REEDsART]

F*ck you on about? Tyson's head is as big as Ruddock's. And that's what Lewis blew to Kingdom Come with 1 f*cking shot. Lewis would kill the little man. Much too big, much too good. Tyson doesn't have the chin to keep trying to get inside. He'd get tagged hard and would lose his confidence and get scared when he sees this big motherf*cker ain't intimidated.Fuck YOU on About???...

The GHOST of Tyson Past Took an 8 Round PUMMELING from Lennox Lewis...Mike had about 3 Minutes Worth of "Stamina", then it was ALL Lennox...

Yet Tyson KEPT Trying to Get Inside...

Mike Tyson had a VERY GOOD Chin, Hanzy...Perhaps even GREAT...Shit, Lennox Lewis BROKE his Hand by Repeatedly Going Upside Tyson's Head w/It...& Again, that was the Decrepid SHELL of Mike Tyson...

PRIME Mike had GREAT Head Movement, GREAT Footwork, a HIGH Guard & 1 Helluva Chin...

To Say Tyson "Doesn't Have the Chin to Keep Trying to Get Inside" is COMPLETELY False...



REED:kidcool:

[LOK]

Fuck YOU on About???...

The GHOST of Tyson Past Took an 8 Round PUMMELING from Lennox Lewis...Mike had about 3 Minutes Worth of "Stamina", then it was ALL Lennox...

Yet Tyson KEPT Trying to Get Inside...

Mike Tyson had a VERY GOOD Chin, Hanzy...Perhaps even GREAT...Shit, Lennox Lewis BROKE his Hand by Repeatedly Going Upside Tyson's Head w/It...& Again, that was the Decrepid SHELL of Mike Tyson...

PRIME Mike had GREAT Head Movement, GREAT Footwork, a HIGH Guard & 1 Helluva Chin...

To Say Tyson "Doesn't Have the Chin to Keep Trying to Get Inside" is COMPLETELY False...



REED:kidcool:


Hanzy loves Lemmon that's all...

he's been on his cock since he first saw LEnny..

he talks about Lemmon stretching Golata.. what about Lemmon getting STRETCHED by Rahman? :lol:

a old washed up on drugs Mike got stopped by Lemmon.. but you didn't see Mike go out with one shot like Lemmon did via Rahman at a time when Manny said (the break for the movie actually did him good.. he is in the best shape ever)

or when Manny said "NO HW can LAST 8 rounds with Lennox) and then Zeljin Macrovision went 12 with him argueablly winning!

[Ugotabe Kidding]

Hanzy loves Lemmon that's all...

he's been on his cock since he first saw LEnny..

he talks about Lemmon stretching Golata.. what about Lemmon getting STRETCHED by Rahman? :lol:

a old washed up on drugs Mike got stopped by Lemmon.. but you didn't see Mike go out with one shot like Lemmon did via Rahman at a time when Manny said (the break for the movie actually did him good.. he is in the best shape ever)

or when Manny said "NO HW can LAST 8 rounds with Lennox) and then Zeljin Macrovision went 12 with him argueablly winning!

What about the gift decision Tyson received against Bonecrusher Smith?

[REEDsART]

What about the gift decision Tyson received against Bonecrusher Smith?Huh???:dunno:

Bonecrusher HELD Tyson Close Enough to IMPREGNATE him, but Other than that, it was ALL Tyson...

REED:kidcool:

[LOK]

Huh???:dunno:

Bonecrusher HELD Tyson Close Enough to IMPREGNATE him, but Other than that, it was ALL Tyson...

REED:kidcool:


:lol: for real..

I mean.. should he have got a dec because he rubbed his gentials on tyson for 12 rounds?

[LOK]

Hanzy is just mad cuz Lemmon is kinda gay and Tyson is a 14 inch cock waving porn star

[Ugotabe Kidding]

Huh???:dunno:

Bonecrusher HELD Tyson Close Enough to IMPREGNATE him, but Other than that, it was ALL Tyson...

REED:kidcool:

I scored the fight in favor of Smith. He effectively took away tyson's infighting and then nearly murdered him in the last round

[REEDsART]

I scored the fight in favor of Smith. He effectively took away tyson's infighting and then nearly murdered him in the last round
Unless U Score Fights Based on a Compu-Box CLINCH Count, there's Absolutely NO WAY U Could've Scored that Fight for Bonecrusher...There were MORE Clinches than a John Ruiz Instructional Video N that Bout...

Granted, that was Perhaps THE Most BORING Tyson Fight N HISTORY, but Mike CLEARLY Won it...

Perhaps your Attempt @ SARCASM Isn't Coming Across???...



REED:dunno:

[Tam Tam]

Huh???:dunno:

Bonecrusher HELD Tyson Close Enough to IMPREGNATE him, but Other than that, it was ALL Tyson...

REED:kidcool:

I thought it was sarcasm, because only a blind moron would think Mavrovic did anything but get his ass kicked for twelve rounds by Lewis.

[steve_dave]

I thought it was sarcasm, because only a blind moron would think Mavrovic did anything but get his ass kicked for twelve rounds by Lewis.

Exactly

[Free Ike]

Exactly

Just to latch on to you and Tam's comments, I actually missed the Lewis v. ZM fight. Lok said he thought it was close. I had never heard anyone else say it, but I bought the fight. One, ZM won 1 or 2 rounds at best. Two, Lewis was not knocked down like LOK said. Three, it was a top 10 worst fight ever.


I bought it because of LOk. That fucker owes me money,lol.

[Azazel]

I would say that Douglas "almost getting KOed" against Tyson is a bit of an exaggeration.

Eh, no its not, Douglas was less than 1 second remove from a ko loss, at 9 he was still on his knees, that not called perfectly following the count, he just barely beat it. Douglas won, no need to change the truth for it to suit your agenda.


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[steve_dave]

Eh, no its not, Douglas was less than 1 second remove from a ko loss, at 9 he was still on his knees, that not called perfectly following the count, he just barely beat it. Douglas won, no need to change the truth for it to suit your agenda.


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Complete bull. I haven't watched your video, but Buster was obviously following the count. From about 6 on, if memory serves, he was looking directly at the ref.

[steve_dave]

Eh, no its not, Douglas was less than 1 second remove from a ko loss, at 9 he was still on his knees, that not called perfectly following the count, he just barely beat it. Douglas won, no need to change the truth for it to suit your agenda.


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OK, I watched. What does that video prove?

[Mitchell Kane]

OK, I watched. What does that video prove?

That their trips to and from the canvas were pretty much simultaneous when seen together.

The retort to that is Douglas was aware of the count and probably could have moved a little faster had the count been quicker. You can see Douglas hit the canvas with this glove after he went down.

He wasn't in as bad a shape as Tyson was, plus the bell rang right afterwards.

[steve_dave]

That their trips to and from the canvas were pretty much simultaneous.

The retort to that is Douglas was aware of the count and probably could have moved a little faster had the count been quicker. You can see Douglas hit the canvas with this glove after he went down.

He wasn't nearly in as bad a shape as Tyson was.

Right, Buster was WAY more together. There's no debate.

[Azazel]

Complete bull. I haven't watched your video, but Buster was obviously following the count. From about 6 on, if memory serves, he was looking directly at the ref.

Well, maybe you should, you dont get up at 9 and a half when you are
''obviously following the count''

[Tam Tam]

OK, I watched. What does that video prove?

It proves that Douglas was nearly KOed....something that shouldn't need to be 're'-proved.

[Azazel]

It proves that Douglas was nearly KOed....something that shouldn't need to be 're'-proved.

Exactly, no doubt that Douglas won unless you are some kind of Tyson apologist, but the Tyson haters are no better when they claim that Douglas timed the count perfectly, unless he s a perfect retard, you dont only barely beat the count on purpose, when doing so, you are supposed to get up at about 8

[Free Ike]

What the fuck are you guys arguing about. Douglas was almost kayoed but he was aware enough to get up at the referee's count. That is what you are supposed to do. He beat the count and then Tyson's ass.

[Hanz]

Fuck YOU on About???...

The GHOST of Tyson Past Took an 8 Round PUMMELING from Lennox Lewis...Mike had about 3 Minutes Worth of "Stamina", then it was ALL Lennox...

Yet Tyson KEPT Trying to Get Inside...

Mike Tyson had a VERY GOOD Chin, Hanzy...Perhaps even GREAT...Shit, Lennox Lewis BROKE his Hand by Repeatedly Going Upside Tyson's Head w/It...& Again, that was the Decrepid SHELL of Mike Tyson...

PRIME Mike had GREAT Head Movement, GREAT Footwork, a HIGH Guard & 1 Helluva Chin...

To Say Tyson "Doesn't Have the Chin to Keep Trying to Get Inside" is COMPLETELY False...



REED:kidcool:

Lennox was just teeing off on the motherf*cker cause it was so easy, he didn't even have to do anything other than tip tap. Why do you think Manny was so pissed at Lewis in the corner? Slapping him and yelling "Get this motherf*cker outta here!"
Lennox was toying with the guy for 8 rounds. If Lewis wanted that fight to be over, Tyson would've been laying in a pool of his own blood before the 5th round. Lewis f*cked around for 4 rounds for no reason whatsoever, tip tapping and sh*t. Everybody knows it. You know it too.
Lennox had absolutely no desire to kill the little guy so quickly. He wanted to make it long and painful so Tyson would remember that day for the rest of his life.

[Hanz]

:lol: for real..

I mean.. should he have got a dec because he rubbed his gentials on tyson for 12 rounds?

Mike Tyson scared opponents into submission. He was an intimidator. When he couldn't scare guys, he didn't look tough at all. Like Buster coming at him and ripping the f*cker up!
Tyson's like Federer. They win cause they already got the opponent beat mentally. Then one guy comes along and puts them in their place and soon, more guys are less afraid and start nailing these motherf*ckers!
Douglas raped that ass. If Tony Tucker wasn't so scared, he'd have given Tyson a mother of a fight. Hell even a single Tucker uppercut actually lifted Tyson off the canvas in the first round. Tucker didn't do anything for the rest of the fight cause he was too scared.

[Hanz]

What the fuck are you guys arguing about. Douglas was almost kayoed but he was aware enough to get up at the referee's count. That is what you are supposed to do. He beat the count and then Tyson's ass.

Exactly. He knocked Tyson's ass into next week. LOK is still in denial over this. He don't wanna admit that Tyson got his ass beat up. It was a fair and square beating. Buster smashed him up from the first round all the way to the end. And Buster doesn't punch even 1/3 as hard as Lennox did. LOL!

[Tam Tam]

What the fuck are you guys arguing about. Douglas was almost kayoed but he was aware enough to get up at the referee's count. That is what you are supposed to do. He beat the count and then Tyson's ass.
No doubt. I didn't say or argue otherwise.

[Hanz]

:atu: F*cking Tyson lovers still in denial!

[broadwayjoe]

Eh, no its not, Douglas was less than 1 second remove from a ko loss, at 9 he was still on his knees, that not called perfectly following the count, he just barely beat it. Douglas won, no need to change the truth for it to suit your agenda.


<object height="344" width="425">

<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/gHcbFUTIslI&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" height="344" width="425"></object> My agenda is the truth. What is yours? There's no doubt that Douglas was far more aware than Tyson.

[dsimon3387]

Hanzy is just mad cuz Lemmon is kinda gay and Tyson is a 14 inch cock waving porn star

dsimon writes:

you guys are killing me. you reed and Mitchell. Thanks for the cheer boys its been a rough night. I need it and you guys have all brought a smile to my face. I mean it thank you

And yes it is all true. Tyson's handspeed and footspeed was phenominal, as was his head movement which he studied from the greats. Also... Tyson was smart as shit. That often gets overlooked.

And finally if winnign fights meant fucking your oponnent by rubbing against him then boinecrusher won something.... :popcorn:

[dsimon3387]

It proves that Douglas was nearly KOed....something that shouldn't need to be 're'-proved.

dsimon writes:

And that is what I said BTW... :crying: Joe thinks my intention was to denigrate Douglas far from it, as far as I am concerned Douglas fought one of the best fights in heavyweight history that night... Its like he went into a heavyweight supermarket and bought Ali's jab, Sugar Ray's combo punching, Holyfield's and Marceiano's tenacity and ability to flurry, and put it all together!

My point was that even in defeat Tyson almost managed to a KO. And he did almost Ko Buster... thats no slight on Douglas.

[Hanz]

dsimon writes:

you guys are killing me. you reed and Mitchell. Thanks for the cheer boys its been a rough night. I need it and you guys have all brought a smile to my face. I mean it thank you

And yes it is all true. Tyson's handspeed and footspeed was phenominal, as was his head movement which he studied from the greats. Also... Tyson was smart as shit. That often gets overlooked.

And finally if winnign fights meant fucking your oponnent by rubbing against him then boinecrusher won something.... :popcorn:

Yeah, he better have good handspeed and footspeed if he's gonna be contending with his little ass against the big bad Lennox. Lennox would've mauled him. 6'5, 250 84" reach vs 5'10 215 71" reach. What the f*ck do you think Tyson's gonna try and do against this guy? Lewis would drive his ass back into the ropes everytime, let out some feroicious hooks and right hands and Tyson would be begging like a bitch. He was always scared sh*t of Lennox. Something happened in their sparring match in Catskill in their teens that made Tyson scared of this dude. Tyson paid 4 mill and dropped a belt to avoid this guy in 96. And he tried ducking him some more in 2000 onward till there was no way out. Even in the walk to the ring in their 2002 fight, Tyson was blinking and looking at the ground. Scared sh*t! He ain't no brave warrior. A guy stands up to him and suddenly he gets scared, he becomes unsure of himself. Typical bully.
He tried bullcharging Lennox. Lennox just throws him into the ropes and slams some uppercuts. Tyson tries to get under Lennox, Lennox does a quick half step back and tears up Tyson's gums with a vicious uppercut. That was it for Tyson after that shot. He didn't wanna feel no more leather from Lewis. Emotionally, he quit the fight there.
Lennox via KO. Tyson the overrated bum beater. He scared guys, making his work easier. Guys who brought it made him look like f*ckin' sh*t. Buster Douglas brought it and KHTFO!
Typical Tyson bitches still wanna cry foul with the long count.:lol:

[steve_dave]

No doubt. I didn't say or argue otherwise.

Me neither, to be honest. I won't deny that Douglas was almost stopped.

[LOK]

Just to latch on to you and Tam's comments, I actually missed the Lewis v. ZM fight. Lok said he thought it was close. I had never heard anyone else say it, but I bought the fight. One, ZM won 1 or 2 rounds at best. Two, Lewis was not knocked down like LOK said. Three, it was a top 10 worst fight ever.


I bought it because of LOk. That fucker owes me money,lol.


:lol:

LOL!!!

I love this forum!:laughing:

Ike.. admit it.. Lemmon with "life and death" with Macrovision..

and what especially makes it great to me is that right before this fight is when Manny announced to the world that "NO Heavy could last 8 rounds with Lennox"

on top of that Zeljin almost died leading up to this fight and shortly after wasted away to about 98lbs.. he had some serious diesese and still managed to not only last 8.. but last the distance and win some rounds!!

[LOK]

Yeah, he better have good handspeed and footspeed if he's gonna be contending with his little ass against the big bad Lennox. Lennox would've mauled him. 6'5, 250 84" reach vs 5'10 215 71" reach. What the f*ck do you think Tyson's gonna try and do against this guy? Lewis would drive his ass back into the ropes everytime, let out some feroicious hooks and right hands and Tyson would be begging like a bitch. He was always scared sh*t of Lennox. Something happened in their sparring match in Catskill in their teens that made Tyson scared of this dude. Tyson paid 4 mill and dropped a belt to avoid this guy in 96. And he tried ducking him some more in 2000 onward till there was no way out. Even in the walk to the ring in their 2002 fight, Tyson was blinking and looking at the ground. Scared sh*t! He ain't no brave warrior. A guy stands up to him and suddenly he gets scared, he becomes unsure of himself. Typical bully.
He tried bullcharging Lennox. Lennox just throws him into the ropes and slams some uppercuts. Tyson tries to get under Lennox, Lennox does a quick half step back and tears up Tyson's gums with a vicious uppercut. That was it for Tyson after that shot. He didn't wanna feel no more leather from Lewis. Emotionally, he quit the fight there.
Lennox via KO. Tyson the overrated bum beater. He scared guys, making his work easier. Guys who brought it made him look like f*ckin' sh*t. Buster Douglas brought it and KHTFO!
Typical Tyson bitches still wanna cry foul with the long count.:lol:

typical lemmon cock riding

Fact is.. Lemmon's gay ass didn't want nothing to do with Mike untl he knew he was on drugs and could not fight.. Mike was not even santioned to fight anywhere else... lol.. he was in no shape to fight
it really has nothing to do with Lennox and I give him ZERO credit for that win

[Hanz]

typical lemmon cock riding

Fact is.. Lemmon's gay ass didn't want nothing to do with Mike untl he knew he was on drugs and could not fight.. Mike was not even santioned to fight anywhere else... lol.. he was in no shape to fight
it really has nothing to do with Lennox and I give him ZERO credit for that win

Yeah? And you were on here night and day talking sh*t about the supremacy of Tyson and how awesome and great he was and how he was gonna tear Lewis up.
Don't try to backtrack on that sh*t now LOK baby. It's all documented and everybody read it.
Then you came on here 2 days later after you found some guts to face the board and gave Lewis all the credit for the win.
THEN 7 days later you went back to your usual tirade of Lewis insults again showing your lack of balls and humility and making up BS excuses for your superhero lord Iron Mike.
Tyson ducked Lewis for YEARS!!!! And we saw why.:laughing: B*tch did everything avoid the fight.
Tyson likes bums like Etienne and Seldon who just fall down for him quickly and easily. That's all his career is. Just about every PPV fight he ever had resulted in the crowd booing or throwing sh*t at him as he left the ring. The story of his career.
It was funny, his last professional fight against McBride. Tyson loses and as he walks to the exit, he gets a beer cup thrown in his head. How fitting an exit for a guy who RIPPED OFF the public for every cent they had. NOBODY fought more handpicked set ups and bums than Mike Tyson did. I always laughed at people who got pissed at being ripped off after paying for a crappy Tyson fight.:lol:

[dsimon3387]

Yeah? And you were on here night and day talking sh*t about the supremacy of Tyson and how awesome and great he was and how he was gonna tear Lewis up.
Don't try to backtrack on that sh*t now LOK baby. It's all documented and everybody read it.
Then you came on here 2 days later after you found some guts to face the board and gave Lewis all the credit for the win.
THEN 7 days later you went back to your usual tirade of Lewis insults again showing your lack of balls and humility and making up BS excuses for your superhero lord Iron Mike.
Tyson ducked Lewis for YEARS!!!! And we saw why.:laughing: B*tch did everything avoid the fight.
Tyson likes bums like Etienne and Seldon who just fall down for him quickly and easily. That's all his career is. Just about every PPV fight he ever had resulted in the crowd booing or throwing sh*t at him as he left the ring. The story of his career.
It was funny, his last professional fight against McBride. Tyson loses and as he walks to the exit, he gets a beer cup thrown in his head. How fitting an exit for a guy who RIPPED OFF the public for every cent they had. NOBODY fought more handpicked set ups and bums than Mike Tyson did. I always laughed at people who got pissed at being ripped off after paying for a crappy Tyson fight.:lol:

dsimon writes:

YOu and Lok are both right. You Meetthefeebleminded, etc in one camp. BUt you both seriously make good points.

As I see it Tyson would have every reason to be scared of Lewis. Lewis was bigger and could use his skills just as Tyson could use his.... i.e. deliberately. Both guys fought smart and with more deliberation than most of the other bunch... which is what made them special imo. Bowe for example, was one dimensional, so was Ruddock... they were good but one dimensional. So way Holyfield. Most guys were actually.

Both Tyson and Lewis imo were different in that they were deliberate and conscious of developing a style and strategy. With Lewis this was not obvious but a lot of smart people thought so much. Bottom line is that both guys were a cut above.

[meetthefeebles]

dsimon writes:

YOu and Lok are both right. You Meetthefeebleminded, etc in one camp. BUt you both seriously make good points.



You are thin ice, old man. Very thin ice...

MTF :lol:

[LOK]

Yeah? And you were on here night and day talking sh*t about the supremacy of Tyson and how awesome and great he was and how he was gonna tear Lewis up.
Don't try to backtrack on that sh*t now LOK baby. It's all documented and everybody read it.
Then you came on here 2 days later after you found some guts to face the board and gave Lewis all the credit for the win.
THEN 7 days later you went back to your usual tirade of Lewis insults again showing your lack of balls and humility and making up BS excuses for your superhero lord Iron Mike.
Tyson ducked Lewis for YEARS!!!! And we saw why.:laughing: B*tch did everything avoid the fight.
Tyson likes bums like Etienne and Seldon who just fall down for him quickly and easily. That's all his career is. Just about every PPV fight he ever had resulted in the crowd booing or throwing sh*t at him as he left the ring. The story of his career.
It was funny, his last professional fight against McBride. Tyson loses and as he walks to the exit, he gets a beer cup thrown in his head. How fitting an exit for a guy who RIPPED OFF the public for every cent they had. NOBODY fought more handpicked set ups and bums than Mike Tyson did. I always laughed at people who got pissed at being ripped off after paying for a crappy Tyson fight.:lol:

whatever cock rider

Lemmon fought Mike when multiple docs and commisioners said Mike shoudl not be fighting.. his drugs were too strong..

and come on.. I was gone for 7 days? :atu: you must be crazy..

Lemmon fought more bums than Mike and looked worse doing it.. PLUS he was STRETCHED TWICE:lol:

[Hanz]

whatever cock rider

Lemmon fought Mike when multiple docs and commisioners said Mike shoudl not be fighting.. his drugs were too strong..

and come on.. I was gone for 7 days? :atu: you must be crazy..

Lemmon fought more bums than Mike and looked worse doing it.. PLUS he was STRETCHED TWICE:lol:

Nobody ever said nothin' about Tyson being on drugs. That's all a horde of sh*t that his dickhead fans wanna ride with. The only thing Tyson was suffering from was a case of low biorhythms which happens when you're about to sh*t your pants which is what he was doing when he was staring up at big bad Lennox.
Lennox raped your pussy hero like a bitch! Facts are facts. Your lover got his asshole eaten alive!!! :laughing:
Tyson is the biggest bumbeater in history. Notice how awesome he looks when he's beating up scared bums like Julius Francis and Clifford Etienne and Bruce Seldon? Bitch got no guts. He don't want none of the real men like Commander Vander and Lethal Lennox!!!! :crafty:

[meetthefeebles]

Nobody ever said nothin' about Tyson being on drugs. That's all a horde of sh*t that his dickhead fans wanna ride with. The only thing Tyson was suffering from was a case of low biorhythms which happens when you're about to sh*t your pants which is what he was doing when he was staring up at big bad Lennox.
Lennox raped your pussy hero like a bitch! Facts are facts. Your lover got his asshole eaten alive!!! :laughing:
Tyson is the biggest bumbeater in history. Notice how awesome he looks when he's beating up scared bums like Julius Francis and Clifford Etienne and Bruce Seldon? Bitch got no guts. He don't want none of the real men like Commander Vander and Lethal Lennox!!!! :crafty:

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind whatsoever that Tyson was scared of Lennox Lewis. The fact that he paid Lennox off to fight the 'washed up' version of Holyfield puts paid to any possible argument to the contrary as conclusively as Riddick Bowe tossing his belt into a rubbish bin.

MTF

[Hanz]

Tyson's win over Seldon was one of the biggest disgraces in the history of boxing in ppv world title fights. His ear bite of holyfield ranks the highest and damaged the sport's rep beyond repair. The Norris fight was also crap. The Ruddock I fight was another case of corruption in the sport with a paid off referee. Most of his fights saw the crowd throwing sh*t at Tyson or booing Tyson when he left the ring almost everytime. Cause he was a con-man, taking advantage of the public by ripping them off time and again.
The people who 'enjoyed' his fights the most are the ones who watched it through a black box on ppv like I did and never had to pay a cent to see his crappy ass fights. F*ck would anybody in their right mind wanna be shelling out for a Tyson fight? :notallthere:
Look at the history of how many people were pissed about being ripped off after paying for a Tyson fight. :laughing:
Makes you feel good when you see a joke bum fight for free and feel even better when you know some assholes out there paid $50-60 for that sh*t.

[Hanz]

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind whatsoever that Tyson was scared of Lennox Lewis. The fact that he paid Lennox off to fight the 'washed up' version of Holyfield puts paid to any possible argument to the contrary as conclusively as Riddick Bowe tossing his belt into a rubbish bin.

MTF

Tyson tried to sabotage the fight in the pre-fight press conference, charging Lewis' podium like he wanted to fight Lennox right there and then later saying it was Lennox's fault for what happened.:lol: What a bitch! Typical small man complex.

[LOK]

You lemmon lovers are funny..

Tyson is hardly "my hereo" :lol:

LOL!!!

That said..

it is not tyson fans making shit up about drugs.. tha is fact

[Hanz]

You lemmon lovers are funny..

Tyson is hardly "my hereo" :lol:

LOL!!!

That said..

it is not tyson fans making shit up about drugs.. tha is fact

Tyson is your gay lover!!! No matter what sh*t he did in his life, LOK will always be there condoning it all and laughing his ass off yelling "GO MIKE GO!!!!!!!!!!'
You LIVE through Mike Tyson. He's your inspiration in life. You want to be the WHITE TYSON!!!! You even try to bob/weave like him in the watermelon video except with only 1/50 the power and speed of Iron Mike.
I hope your son watches Tyson videos and starts talking like him. Would be funny to hear your son say to you "I'll f*ck you till you love me, Dad!":lol:

[LOK]

Tyson is your gay lover!!! No matter what sh*t he did in his life, LOK will always be there condoning it all and laughing his ass off yelling "GO MIKE GO!!!!!!!!!!'
You LIVE through Mike Tyson. He's your inspiration in life. You want to be the WHITE TYSON!!!! You even try to bob/weave like him in the watermelon video except with only 1/50 the power and speed of Iron Mike.
I hope your son watches Tyson videos and starts talking like him. Would be funny to hear your son say to you "I'll f*ck you till you love me, Dad!":lol:


lol

you have issues Hanzy

seriously..

I am not all that big a tyson fan for real..

but I think if comparing hiim and Lemmon.. Tyson is the greater fighter

[REEDsART]

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind whatsoever that Tyson was scared of Lennox Lewis. The fact that he paid Lennox off to fight the 'washed up' version of Holyfield puts paid to any possible argument to the contrary as conclusively as Riddick Bowe tossing his belt into a rubbish bin.

MTF
Mr. Feebles...

CLEARLY, Tyson was RELUCTANT to Face Lennox, but SCARED is a Strong Word...

Keep N Mind, Mike was Only a Year or So REMOVED from Prison...& he had Faced McNeely, Mathis, Bruno & Seldon...

Lennox would have Been a DRASTIC Step Up from that Level of Competition, Obviously...A Step that Tyson, Still Shaking 3 Years of Ringrust, Wasn't Ready for...

N the Case of Bowe, he Entered a 4 Fighter Tournament KNOWING the 2 Winners were Scheduled to Face Each Other...THEN, Bowe Backed Out...

Different Scenarios...
REED:hammert:

[LOK]

Mr. Feebles...

CLEARLY, Tyson was RELUCTANT to Face Lennox, but SCARED is a Strong Word...

Keep N Mind, Mike was Only a Year or So REMOVED from Prison...& he had Faced McNeely, Mathis, Bruno & Seldon...

Lennox would have Been a DRASTIC Step Up from that Level of Competition, Obviously...A Step that Tyson, Still Shaking 3 Years of Ringrust, Wasn't Ready for...

N the Case of Bowe, he Entered a 4 Fighter Tournament KNOWING the 2 Winners were Scheduled to Face Each Other...THEN, Bowe Backed Out...

Different Scenarios...
REED:hammert:


MTF and Hanzy want LEmmon's little ass cock in their mouths!

[Hanz]

lol

you have issues Hanzy

seriously..

I am not all that big a tyson fan for real..

but I think if comparing hiim and Lemmon.. Tyson is the greater fighter

:lol: How could you not have been a Tyson fan? Everybody was a Tyson fan. Even me!

[Hanz]

MTF and Hanzy want LEmmon's little ass cock in their mouths!

We posted that naked pic of Tyson on here. Dude had like 4" at most.

[LOK]

:lol: How could you not have been a Tyson fan? Everybody was a Tyson fan. Even me!


I was and am a fan..

but he was not my hereo nor my "gay lover" :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

you act as if it really effected me that he lost.. :lol:

I'm more of a Lemmon hater than Tyson fan probably

[LOK]

We posted that naked pic of Tyson on here. Dude had like 4" at most.


lol

are you saying Bama and his 4.6 was bigger than Mighty Mike?

I thought they said Mike was 14"?

[Hanz]

Mr. Feebles...

CLEARLY, Tyson was RELUCTANT to Face Lennox, but SCARED is a Strong Word...

Keep N Mind, Mike was Only a Year or So REMOVED from Prison...& he had Faced McNeely, Mathis, Bruno & Seldon...

Lennox would have Been a DRASTIC Step Up from that Level of Competition, Obviously...A Step that Tyson, Still Shaking 3 Years of Ringrust, Wasn't Ready for...

N the Case of Bowe, he Entered a 4 Fighter Tournament KNOWING the 2 Winners were Scheduled to Face Each Other...THEN, Bowe Backed Out...

Different Scenarios...
REED:hammert:

BS!!! Lennox looked like sh*t against Mercer and Tyson STILL didn't want that fight. Tyson was the champ, he was the top guy around, the guy to beat. When you're the champ and have beaten 2 champions in Bruno and Seldon, that means you go fight the toughest comp out there and defend your titles. Tyson bitched out plain as day. Paid 4 mill to duck Lennox and dropped his WBC belt too.
Bitch move!!!! Only in boxing can you be a bitch WHILE holding a title. Can't do that sh*t in most other sports. A team can't duck another team, a tennis player can't duck another tennis player.
Only in boxing does it happen regularly which is why the sport is so laughable. Back in the day, fighters used to FIGHT! Like Muhammad Ali!!!!
Not that sh*t Tyson did most of his career, taking safe easy fights ala Julio Cesar Chavez Jr. Tyson's post prison career was a complete joke, pretty much put the integrity of the sport straight in the gutter.

[Hanz]

lol

are you saying Bama and his 4.6 was bigger than Mighty Mike?

I thought they said Mike was 14"?

You saw the pic yourself. 14" my ass! 4" is more like it.

[LOK]

Lennox quit cuz he was gay.. that's sad


The British Boxing legend Lennox Lewis will not return to the ring, because he does not want to end up like his idol Muhammad Ali, who suffered harsh knockouts after his return. Lewis pulled out in 2003 after a fight with Vitali Klitschko, and went into official retirement in 2004. Recently, he has had offers to return worth 40 million dollars, but he said that watching Ali, he has learned to pull out whilst he is healthy.
“I became a boxer because I wanted to be just like Muhammad Ali.”
“But what I learnt from him was not to fight on too long. I saw him go on too long and suffer as a result.”
“And the reason I retired when I did, and why I won't fight again, is because I don't want the same to happen to me” said Lewis for GQ magazine.
During his career, the world champion fought allegations that he was a homosexual, but is now married and has children.
“When people started coming up to me asking if I was gay it really bugged me"

[Hanz]

I was and am a fan..

but he was not my hereo nor my "gay lover" :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

you act as if it really effected me that he lost.. :lol:

I'm more of a Lemmon hater than Tyson fan probably

Ok then, eliminate Lewis from the discussion. Prime Mike Tyson, undisputed heavyweight champ in 1988. Was he your gay lover or not? Did you care if he won or lost? Did his loss to Buster upset you? Did you try to watch all his fights live?

[Hanz]

Lennox quit cuz he was gay.. that's sad


The British Boxing legend Lennox Lewis will not return to the ring, because he does not want to end up like his idol Muhammad Ali, who suffered harsh knockouts after his return. Lewis pulled out in 2003 after a fight with Vitali Klitschko, and went into official retirement in 2004. Recently, he has had offers to return worth 40 million dollars, but he said that watching Ali, he has learned to pull out whilst he is healthy.
“I became a boxer because I wanted to be just like Muhammad Ali.”
“But what I learnt from him was not to fight on too long. I saw him go on too long and suffer as a result.”
“And the reason I retired when I did, and why I won't fight again, is because I don't want the same to happen to me” said Lewis for GQ magazine.
During his career, the world champion fought allegations that he was a homosexual, but is now married and has children.
“When people started coming up to me asking if I was gay it really bugged me"

Tyson got f*ckin' raped by a queer!!!! :lol: :laughing:

[LOK]

Ok then, eliminate Lewis from the discussion. Prime Mike Tyson, undisputed heavyweight champ in 1988. Was he your gay lover or not? Did you care if he won or lost? Did his loss to Buster upset you? Did you try to watch all his fights live?


lol

he was not my gay lover

I was kinda suprised at the lost to douglas..in hindsight though.. he had it coming.. he wasn't even training and he was partying all the time.. I can't say it really "upset" me:lol:

I do think young Mike brought an excitment to the game that has probably not been there since..

[LOK]

You saw the pic yourself. 14" my ass! 4" is more like it.


he was not aroused was he?

[Hanz]

he was not aroused was he?

4" cocks don't erect up to 14" in length when aroused, LOK.:lol:

[LOK]

4" cocks don't erect up to 14" in length when aroused, LOK.:lol:


:lol:

[LOK]

really this should be Tyson-Holy-Bowe.. and whoever else but not Lennox

I think he'll be looked back on as one of the worst guys to ever hold the title..

[dsimon3387]

You are thin ice, old man. Very thin ice...

MTF :lol:
dsimon writes:

I could not resist. :lol:

[Free Ike]

really this should be Tyson-Holy-Bowe.. and whoever else but not Lennox

I think he'll be looked back on as one of the worst guys to ever hold the title..

Lol. I think this statement is as much a lock as your average prediction. No just no.