View Full Version : Fights where a fighter's stock rises despite losing
Arben
08-20-2008, 11:42 AM
Cotto vs. Mosley -- Mosley was doing really well in a fight where, coming into it, I actually thought he would get KO'ed. Not only was he not stopped, the fight was actually VERY competitive and he was a round or two away from winning a big upset.
Ishe Smith vs. Pawel Wolak -- This one was pretty recent and not a big fight or anything, but I never saw Wolak as anything more than a fun clubfighter. At a weight where even he has admitted he shouldn't be fighting at, he made Ishe work for a victory. I thought Wolak would get completely outclassed, because I thought Wolak had no class in the ring. I was wrong here.
Margarito vs. Cotto -- I've always been a hater on Cotto. The Mosley and Margarito fights are the only two that I actually picked him to win. Cotto's ring smarts are what impressed me. He fought a totally different fight than he normally does and showed that he knows how to react when he's hurt. Against Corley, he simply backed away as far as possible and didn't really protect himself well. Against Torres, he took 22 unanswered punches and showed no ability to clinch and not enough smarts to take a knee. Against Margarito, he held, didn't go straight backwards, and took a knee.
Lewis vs. Vitali -- Obvious reasons. No need to go in-depth.
We'll all have different answers because we all think differently of fighters before and after fights.
Mitchell Kane
08-20-2008, 11:48 AM
Marco Antonio Barrera after the first Erik Morales fight
Andrew Golota after the first Riddick Bowe fight
Ricardo Torres after the Miguel Cotto fight
REEDsART
08-20-2008, 11:52 AM
Bowe-Holyfield I...
Holyfield's Stock COULDN'T Have Been LOWER Coming N 2 this Fight...He'd STRUGGLED w/Foreman & Holmes, NEVER Beat Mike Tyson for his Title & Couldn't Shake the "Small Heavyweight" Tag that was Placed Upon him...
Bowe was a Young, Accomplished & BIG Heavyweight; just the Guy to RID the Boxing World of that PRETENDER, Evander Holyfield...
12 Rounds Later, REED was AMAZED @ the Level of HEART Holyfield Showed & Actually Felt BAD for Not Respecting him or his Reign UNTIL that Point...
Perhaps NO Fighter has Done MORE for his Perception &/or Legacy N a LOSS, than Holyfield Did N LOSING to Riddick Bowe...
REED:hammert:
whiskey
08-20-2008, 11:54 AM
There's probably quite a few that had controversial endings. It's as if the "stock rising" is there to make up for any perceived injustice.
Father of Muzse
08-20-2008, 04:26 PM
Castillo vs Corrales I
steve_dave
08-20-2008, 05:31 PM
Castillo vs Corrales I
Castillo vs. Mayweather 1 would fit too.
Jones-Tarver 1.
Tam Tam
08-20-2008, 05:32 PM
Any fight where the loser wins.
steve_dave
08-20-2008, 05:32 PM
Ohhhh I have a good one.
MAB-Morales 1.
panchyprsss
08-20-2008, 07:23 PM
For the losers in these fights their stock rose A LOT!
Gatti vs Ward
Castillo vs Corrales
Morales vs Barrera
Cotto vs Torres
Pacquiao vs Marquez
Vazquez vs Marquez
Double L
08-20-2008, 07:41 PM
laporte/sanchez
nelson/sanchez
one other guy who faced sanchez - can't remember his name...
Tam Tam
08-20-2008, 07:42 PM
laporte/sanchez
nelson/sanchez
one other guy who faced sanchez - can't remember his name...
Pat Ford.
lb 4 lb
08-20-2008, 08:43 PM
Cotto vs. Mosley -- Mosley was doing really well in a fight where, coming into it, I actually thought he would get KO'ed. Not only was he not stopped, the fight was actually VERY competitive and he was a round or two away from winning a big upset.
Ishe Smith vs. Pawel Wolak -- This one was pretty recent and not a big fight or anything, but I never saw Wolak as anything more than a fun clubfighter. At a weight where even he has admitted he shouldn't be fighting at, he made Ishe work for a victory. I thought Wolak would get completely outclassed, because I thought Wolak had no class in the ring. I was wrong here.
Here's the problem with the Cotto-Mosley fight. For one, to think Mosley would get KO'd is pretty dumb in of itself. He never showed he had deterorated that much. Also Mosley was a good bit further behind in that fight than a rd or 2. I'd say he was behind by 4.
As for poor ol Wolak, well the problem isn't that Wolak did so good, but that Ishe is a hell of a lot worse than maybe you realize. To be honest Ishe himself is nothing more than a club fighter. Ishe's a talented guy, but he almost never brings his talent to the ring. So much in fact that I'm not even sure he is talented. I'm just going off of what others say about him.
Double L
08-20-2008, 09:01 PM
ford too but there was another guy who gave sanchez a run for his oney - forget his name though....rubin castillo
Double L
08-20-2008, 09:05 PM
Here's the problem with the Cotto-Mosley fight. For one, to think Mosley would get KO'd is pretty dumb in of itself. He never showed he had deterorated that much. Also Mosley was a good bit further behind in that fight than a rd or 2. I'd say he was behind by 4.
As for poor ol Wolak, well the problem isn't that Wolak did so good, but that Ishe is a hell of a lot worse than maybe you realize. To be honest Ishe himself is nothing more than a club fighter. Ishe's a talented guy, but he almost never brings his talent to the ring. So much in fact that I'm not even sure he is talented. I'm just going off of what others say about him.
i view mosley/cotto as a razor thin win for cotto. 8 to 4? no fkn way.
Tam Tam
08-20-2008, 09:40 PM
I had Cotto v Mosley 116-112 as well.
DLH - Sturm.
His stock has fallen back down since then though
Double L
08-20-2008, 09:52 PM
jones jr vs glen johnson
huh? explain this one. rjj fans are the biggest spin doctors on the planet.....
lb 4 lb
08-20-2008, 11:45 PM
huh? explain this one. rjj fans are the biggest spin doctors on the planet.....Maybe he thinks Johnson lost that fight. :dunno:
Xplosive
08-20-2008, 11:54 PM
Ruddock after the Tyson fights.
Even though Mike beat the shit outta him both times, and outta the 19 rounds they fought, Ruddock only won about 3.
He hung tough both times, and hit Mike with some HELLACIOUS hooks that woulda knocked any current heavyweight old cold. But Tyson just ate them up, and at times smiled.
broadwayjoe
08-21-2008, 07:44 AM
Mugabi vs. Hagler
Witherspoon vs. Holmes
Duran vs. Hagler
Weaver vs. Holmes
Walcott vs. Louis
Conn vs. Louis
Tam Tam
08-21-2008, 08:04 AM
Mugabi vs. Hagler
Witherspoon vs. Holmes
Duran vs. Hagler
Weaver vs. Holmes
Walcott vs. Louis
Conn vs. Louis
You make an interesting point; 99% of Larry Holmes' opponents went up in stock post-fight. Save a Marvis Frazier or two :lol:
Paulie Vs Cotto. He was hitting Cotto all night he just couldn't hurt him, Cotto walked through the shots and beat the shit out of him. But Paulie showed a lot of heart in that fight.
broadwayjoe
08-21-2008, 09:01 AM
You make an interesting point; 99% of Larry Holmes' opponents went up in stock post-fight. Save a Marvis Frazier or two :lol:
Holmes liked easy title defenses, but sometimes they backfired on him when the opponent ended up being more difficult than expected...like Witherspoon and Weaver. And also Carl Williams & Bonecrusher Smith. I read once that prior to the Williams fight, Holmes watched the 1st round of Williams-Tillis, in which Williams was knocked down twice and then stopped the tape 'cause that's all he felt he needed to see.
Double L
08-21-2008, 12:18 PM
Holmes was/is over-rated as hell when you consider the opponents he went life and death with, and the many he nearly lost to. He was champion for years by the skin of his teeth.
REEDsART
08-21-2008, 12:49 PM
huh? explain this one. rjj fans are the biggest spin doctors on the planet.....
Uuuuh, Neil ISN'T an RJ Fan, Doub...
REED:mj:
Double L
08-21-2008, 12:53 PM
Uuuuh, Neil ISN'T an RJ Fan, Doub...
REED:mj:
nevertheless. how did his getting KTFO make his stock rise? especially after having been knocked out in his previous fight? i think he must have been being sarcastic.
Hatton after Hatton-Floyd
I like him much better after he got his ass kicked..
talking all that shit.. then he got whupped..
huh? explain this one. rjj fans are the biggest spin doctors on the planet.....
it certainly boosted his stock legacy wise. it showed he was CLEARLY nothing close to what he once was (as if it wasn't obvious years ago), and that he looked like an absolute corpse at light heavy around that time. it shows tarver got him @the right time and still took two tries to win. some seem to claim tarver beat jones jr @his best or close to, the johnson fight showed he had nada
Erratic
08-21-2008, 02:37 PM
At the time, I thought Tarver's stock went up way too high after his loss to Jones. I thought it was a very overrated performance by Tarver. Then Tarver won the rematch.
People seemed to think more highly of Castillo after his fights with Mayweather.
Foreman was taken more seriously in his second career after the fight with Holyfield.
Double L
08-21-2008, 03:26 PM
it certainly boosted his stock legacy wise. it showed he was CLEARLY nothing close to what he once was (as if it wasn't obvious years ago), and that he looked like an absolute corpse at light heavy around that time. it shows tarver got him @the right time and still took two tries to win. some seem to claim tarver beat jones jr @his best or close to, the johnson fight showed he had nada
i disagree. Johnson fought a very smart fight against RJJ and showed a tremendous chin. It's not like he didn't take a lot of shots from RJJ - he just wasn't imtimidated or hurt by them the way so many of the bums RJJ beat were. I'm not saying RJJ hadn't declined somewhat by the time he faced Johnson, but Johnson's approach of staying low, and staying close, moving his head and throwing a lot of punches, and his willingness to trade with RJJ was something RJJ hadn't dealt with hardly at all in his career. Johnson didn't allow RJJ to control the pace of the fight - that made a huge difference.
I think Johnson doesn't get enough credit for that win - all the talk is that RJJ was just shot. Shot fighters don't have the kind of hand-speed RJJ continues to demonstrate.
Mitchell Kane
08-21-2008, 03:37 PM
i disagree. Johnson fought a very smart fight against RJJ and showed a tremendous chin. It's not like he didn't take a lot of shots from RJJ - he just wasn't imtimidated or hurt by them the way so many of the bums RJJ beat were. I'm not saying RJJ hadn't declined somewhat by the time he faced Johnson, but Johnson's approach of staying low, and staying close, moving his head and throwing a lot of punches, and his willingness to trade with RJJ was something RJJ hadn't dealt with hardly at all in his career. Johnson didn't allow RJJ to control the pace of the fight - that made a huge difference.
I think Johnson doesn't get enough credit for that win - all the talk is that RJJ was just shot. Shot fighters don't have the kind of hand-speed RJJ continues to demonstrate.
Yeah, I don't think he was shot in that fight. He did take it relatively soon after the Tarver knockout and he was in against a style that was all wrong for him.
I think it's a similar case to Erik Morales and Manny Pacquiao. I don't think Morales was shot, but bad style for him at that stage.
Being diminished is diffferent from shot.
jones had been declining for years. he looked greatly dimished when I saw him live against gonzalez. and he looked really bad against harmon. his legs aren't nearly what they were and that was before he went up and back down from heavy.
panchyprsss
08-21-2008, 07:28 PM
ford too but there was another guy who gave sanchez a run for his oney - forget his name though....rubin castillo
Ruben Castillo? The same guy Laporte defeated in his first title defense and that before Sanchez, Alexis Arguello put to sleep? But Castillo lost an easy UD to Sanchez. Patrick Ford took Sanchez to hell, gave him a bleeding nose and lost by split decision.
Breeze
08-21-2008, 07:35 PM
Trinidad vs.Vargas
Free Ike
08-22-2008, 12:00 AM
Holmes was/is over-rated as hell when you consider the opponents he went life and death with, and the many he nearly lost to. He was champion for years by the skin of his teeth.
I wonder if you could know less about boxing. Larry Holmes jab was one of the greatest punches in boxing history. Funny, that almost every well known fighter in that era Norton,Frazier, Shavers, Ali for example ...all state that Holmes has never gotten his due. He was a great fighter. I honestly think, he'd have beaten a prime Ali and Foreman. Foreman admits that he never ever wanted a piece of holmes then or now. I think you should join a knitting site. You are out of your league here.
Floyd really shitted in his mouth
Tam Tam
08-22-2008, 12:06 AM
Ruben Castillo? The same guy Laporte defeated in his first title defense and that before Sanchez, Alexis Arguello put to sleep? But Castillo lost an easy UD to Sanchez. Patrick Ford took Sanchez to hell, gave him a bleeding nose and lost by split decision.
Castillo hardly lost 'an easy' UD to Sanchez. That was one of the toughest fights of Sal's career and he was in a few.
broadwayjoe
08-22-2008, 10:06 AM
Holmes was/is over-rated as hell when you consider the opponents he went life and death with, and the many he nearly lost to. He was champion for years by the skin of his teeth.
Hang on a second....
Holmes didn't have many close calls as champion. Weaver gave him some trouble, but Holmes eventually got him out of there. Shavers and Snipes knocked him down and had him in some trouble, but Holmes dominated both fights otherwise and was way ahead on the scorecards when he stopped both opponents. Witherspoon and Carl Williams both gave him good fights, but Holmes deserved the decision in both cases. Bonecrusher Smith did better than expected, but Holmes never looked in danger of losing.
Granted, Holmes' competition could have been better but I don't see where Holmes was "champion for years by the skin of his teeth" as you put it.
broadwayjoe
08-22-2008, 10:07 AM
Castillo hardly lost 'an easy' UD to Sanchez. That was one of the toughest fights of Sal's career and he was in a few.
Yep. Castillo was a good fighter, he just couldn't seem to win the big one.
Double L
08-22-2008, 10:22 AM
I wonder if you could know less about boxing. Larry Holmes jab was one of the greatest punches in boxing history. Funny, that almost every well known fighter in that era Norton,Frazier, Shavers, Ali for example ...all state that Holmes has never gotten his due. He was a great fighter. I honestly think, he'd have beaten a prime Ali and Foreman. Foreman admits that he never ever wanted a piece of holmes then or now. I think you should join a knitting site. You are out of your league here.
Ok. But he nearly loses to Witherspoon (some thought he lost), and was nearly knocked out by Snipes, and many people didn't even think he beat Norton.
Virtually all of his wins were by the skin of his teeth. He was not dominant in any sense of the word. And yet people act like he was somehow unbeatable.
You're the one who doesn't know what he's talking about. Why don't you disappear again. It saved us all the hassle of reading your dribble.
joony
08-22-2008, 10:29 AM
both castillo and laporte gave sanchez tough fights. so did that lanky african.
Double L
08-22-2008, 10:32 AM
both castillo and laporte gave sanchez tough fights. so did that lanky african.
thank you. anyone who doesn't think castillo gave a good account of himself against sanchez obviously didn't watch the fight. at one point in the mid rounds i think the announcers had him winning.
broadwayjoe
08-22-2008, 10:33 AM
Ok. But he nearly loses to Witherspoon (some thought he lost), and was nearly knocked out by Snipes, and many people didn't even think he beat Norton.
Virtually all of his wins were by the skin of his teeth. He was not dominant in any sense of the word. And yet people act like he was somehow unbeatable.
You're the one who doesn't know what he's talking about. Why don't you disappear again. It saved us all the hassle of reading your dribble.
Holmes made 20 title defenses. How many of them were close fights?
I still don't get where you get "Virtually all of his wins were by the skin of his teeth."
I'm not trying to be a dick, I just don't understand how you came to this conclusion.
broadwayjoe
08-22-2008, 10:41 AM
Ok. But he nearly loses to Witherspoon (some thought he lost), and was nearly knocked out by Snipes, and many people didn't even think he beat Norton.
Virtually all of his wins were by the skin of his teeth. He was not dominant in any sense of the word. And yet people act like he was somehow unbeatable.
You're the one who doesn't know what he's talking about. Why don't you disappear again. It saved us all the hassle of reading your dribble.
There is no shame in having a close fight with Norton. It's not like Norton was a bum. Hell...Ali had all he wanted (and then some) from Norton three different times.
Eaner v2.0
08-22-2008, 11:47 AM
Ok. But he nearly loses to Witherspoon (some thought he lost),
If I remember correctly Tim was a hard fighter to figure because he used a peek a boo style which Holmes had issues with. Besides that Tim wasn't some slouch either he was a damn good fighter at times
Double L
08-22-2008, 04:01 PM
No where have I said Holmes wasn't a good fighter. So I'm not taking anything away from his wins. But he wasn't the brilliant fighter that so many people seem to think he was.
He fought a lot of crappy competition, and the competition he fought that wasn't crappy, he nearly lost to.
Good fighter? Yes. Great and dominant fighter who was unbeatable? Not by a long shot.
Father of Muzse
08-22-2008, 04:31 PM
No where have I said Holmes wasn't a good fighter. So I'm not taking anything away from his wins. But he wasn't the brilliant fighter that so many people seem to think he was.
He fought a lot of crappy competition, and the competition he fought that wasn't crappy, he nearly lost to.
Good fighter? Yes. Great and dominant fighter who was unbeatable? Not by a long shot.
You contradict yourself within two sentences. Too damn funny.
Double L
08-22-2008, 04:35 PM
You contradict yourself within two sentences. Too damn funny.
No I don't. Apparently, you need to look up the word, "contradict." Because nowhere have I done such a thing in my post.
I can give him credit for his wins without considering him brilliant. It'd be stupid to suggest that I couldn't. And even dumber to imply that the two are mutually exclusive.
broadwayjoe
08-22-2008, 06:21 PM
No I don't. Apparently, you need to look up the word, "contradict." Because nowhere have I done such a thing in my post.
I can give him credit for his wins without considering him brilliant. It'd be stupid to suggest that I couldn't. And even dumber to imply that the two are mutually exclusive.
What about when you said this???
Virtually all of his wins were by the skin of his teeth.
That doesn't sound like you are giving Holmes credit for his wins. And like I asked before. Holmes made 20 defenses. How many of them did he win
"by the skin of his teeth"?? Be specific, please.
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