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View Full Version : Do you think Pac uses PEDs?



r o o s t e r
12-26-2009, 02:35 AM
do you think pac uses performance enhancing drugs?

i think he probably does. there were a number of ways to respond to floyd's drug test requirement: agree to the tests; agree to the tests and plan a libel action at the same time; agree to the tests and respond with more requirements of your own at the negotiating table; agree to the tests but still make the same complaints in the media that they've been making, which'd still make floyd like a scared asshole while securing the fight nonetheless; .... but instead they chose to quit the fight. the pac camp knew that refusing the tests would be a huge public relations black-eye, that it'd sully the reputation of the world's most popular boxer and prevent the fight-of-the-century from happening, but for some reason they felt committed to doing it, felt they just couldn't agree to the tests.

if pac really does react badly to taking blood, does it really hit him so bad that's he's willing to tarnish his reputation to avoid it? or if he wanted to make an ethical stand and make floyd look like an asshole for introducing extra stipulations, he would have achieved this better if he'd complained about how silly the tests were while still going ahead and agreeing to them.

it's far from certain, but it looks more likely that he's using the drugs rather than not.

of course, he's still a great great boxer, and a great great credit to the sport (more than can be said for floyd). i guess he's got a choice - stop the drugs, do the test, go into the fight unroided and (probably) lose to floyd, thus causing people to question your entire career; or stay on the drugs, beat some other people and protect at least some of the pacman aura, ready for your post-boxing political career. it's not a surprise he chose the second.

whether floyd's an asshole or not, whether this was an unfair thing to ask for or not, it looks like pac's probably been using performance enhancers.

Hanz
12-26-2009, 02:45 AM
Isn't it bad enough that these stupid midget boxers are actually making a mockery of the sport itself by implementing all these whacked stipulations? Here's how it goes: 50-50 purse split, fight signed for March 13, fight to be fought at 147. No catch weight bullsh*t. Let the motherf*ckers train, let them get their pre fight drug testing, let them FIGHT, and then get their post fight drug testing, and everybody gets paid, everybody is happy and everybody can move on with their lives!
What the f*ck else is necessary? Nothing! This ain't f*cking politics.

Fighter
12-26-2009, 02:46 AM
I'll believe he is using PED's when it is PROVEN with facts, otherwise...

He doesn't object to testing, but he does object with INTERFERING with his training. In other words, he doesn't want to give blood samples 48 hours prior to the fight. To him, giving blood is like having sex before a fight, it WEAKENS you.

It is the Mayweather camp who chose to QUIT the fight by failing to COMPROMISE on the testing. Never mind the Commission, never mind other organizations, never mind it will still be random but not after 48 hours before the fight, never mind Pacquaio is agreeing to blood analysis immediately AFTER the fight, It's Olympic, my way or no fight.

I think Floyd is more worried about aura of invencibility than Pacquaio is judging from the body of work in the past few years.

r o o s t e r
12-26-2009, 02:51 AM
floyd and his team are assholes and cowards, for sure. but if pac's not on PEDs, he could have quite easily made them look like assholes and cowards by agreeing to their tests and still gone to the media to complain like they have done. in fact he would have made them look like assholes and cowards even better by doing that, by agreeing to the fight and complaining at the same time.

r o o s t e r
12-26-2009, 02:53 AM
I think Floyd is more worried about aura of invencibility than Pacquaio is judging from the body of work in the past few years.

certainly: when it comes to a question of character between floyd and he, pac wins hands-down. pac's a credit to the sport, while floyd's often a disgrace. but pac's still probably on PEDs.

mikE
12-26-2009, 02:53 AM
I'll believe he is using PED's when it is PROVEN with facts, otherwise...

He doesn't object to testing, but he does object with INTERFERING with his training. In other words, he doesn't want to give blood samples 48 hours prior to the fight. To him, giving blood is like having sex before a fight, it WEAKENS you.

It is the Mayweather camp who chose to QUIT the fight by failing to COMPROMISE on the testing. Never mind the Commission, never mind other organizations, never mind it will still be random but not after 48 hours before the fight, never mind Pacquaio is agreeing to blood analysis immediately AFTER the fight, It's Olympic, my way or no fight.

I think Floyd is more worried about aura of invencibility than Pacquaio is judging from the body of work in the past few years.

Do you feel this is a legitimate reason? Seems like we would have heard this bullshit excuse from an Olympian by now, don't you think?

r o o s t e r
12-26-2009, 02:57 AM
Do you feel this is a legitimate reason? Seems like we would have heard this bullshit excuse from an Olympian by now, don't you think?

sounds to me like another good point

Fighter
12-26-2009, 03:01 AM
Do you feel this is a legitimate reason? Seems like we would have heard this bullshit excuse from an Olympian by now, don't you think?

Whether it is legitimate to me,you or an Olympian carries little weight. Some people believed eating certain foods at certain times was/is a sin against God and detrimental to your health. True or not, that's what they believed.

From the 24-7 show, Pacquaio had the tattoos and blood work well BEFORE the weighin in his KO'S of Hatton and Cotto. It is CONSISTENT to what he believes.

r o o s t e r
12-26-2009, 03:03 AM
Whether it is legitimate to me,you or an Olympian carries little weight. Some people believed eating certain foods at certain times was/is a sin against God and detrimental to your health. True or not, that's what they believed.

From the 24-7 show, Pacquaio had the tattoos and blood work well BEFORE the weighin in his KO'S of Hatton and Cotto. It is CONSISTENT to what he believes.

dunno; seems unlikely that pac's camp would let him jeopardise this megafight and his reputation over this little foible he has, without being able to talk him round.

mikE
12-26-2009, 03:07 AM
Whether it is legitimate to me,you or an Olympian carries little weight. Some people believed eating certain foods at certain times was/is a sin against God and detrimental to your health. True or not, that's what they believed.

From the 24-7 show, Pacquaio had the tattoos and blood work well BEFORE the weighin in his KO'S of Hatton and Cotto. It is CONSISTENT to what he believes.

I'll take that as a no.

When boxing changes its rules to require olympic style testing, are you suggesting that you believe Pacquiao would quit boxing rather than endure such a detrimental requirement?

Btw, you don't know that it is consistent with his beliefs because he never expressed this belief before. Why would he have? Only after 3 days of trying to come up with an excuse that will justify his refusal did we hear of this excuse. Am I wrong on this point?

Fighter
12-26-2009, 03:19 AM
I'll take that as a no.

When boxing changes its rules to require olympic style testing, are you suggesting that you believe Pacquiao would quit boxing rather than endure such a detrimental requirement?

Btw, you don't know that it is consistent with his beliefs because he never expressed this belief before. Why would he have? Only after 3 days of trying to come up with an excuse that will justify his refusal did we hear of this excuse. Am I wrong on this point?

What you say is an excuse, he says it's an interference. The CONSISTENCY is still there because it does not contradict his past actions.

Boxing never had a problem before? When Roy Jones, Mosley, Chavez Jr, Mayorga, Tommy Morrison, Pernell Whitaker tested positive "boxing" didn't change to Olympic testing?

At this point, I'm very confortable with letting a court of LAW decide...

Ron King 702
12-26-2009, 03:29 AM
I'll take that as a no.

When boxing changes its rules to require olympic style testing, are you suggesting that you believe Pacquiao would quit boxing rather than endure such a detrimental requirement?

Btw, you don't know that it is consistent with his beliefs because he never expressed this belief before. Why would he have? Only after 3 days of trying to come up with an excuse that will justify his refusal did we hear of this excuse. Am I wrong on this point?

good

Haymaker
12-26-2009, 03:30 AM
how is getting some blood or urine taken "interference" from a training camp? It only takes a minute. And like everybody's saying, if Pac is so afraid of needles, how comes he never complained about a blood test before and how comes that he got a couple of tattoos? And by refusing, he looks like a cheater. Makes ME wonder (and a lot of people) if he is clean for real.

Fighter
12-26-2009, 03:41 AM
how is getting some blood or urine taken "interference" from a training camp? It only takes a minute. And like everybody's saying, if Pac is so afraid of needles, how comes he never complained about a blood test before and how comes that he got a couple of tattoos? And by refusing, he looks like a cheater. Makes ME wonder (and a lot of people) if he is clean for real.

Whether blood analysis is an interference to me personally, NO. Do I think sex the day before a fight weakens a fighter and is an interference? YES. According to Manny the two are one and the SAME.

Again, the blood work was never done right before a fight, which in this case he would be open for it if he agreed.

Pacman is obviously NOT afraid of needles, at least from the footage I've seen.

The Mayweathers and GBP could have WONDERED too. They could have COMPROMISED. They could have restrained going overboard with their ALLEGATIONS.

Even when he was campaigning at 130, he would come in above 140 fight night. He has not gaining a lot weight since moving up. It's becoming STRONGER and not losing SPEED that is objectionable to the Mayweathers and GBP.

jaws1216
12-26-2009, 04:07 AM
floyd and his team are assholes and cowards, for sure. but if pac's not on PEDs, he could have quite easily made them look like assholes and cowards by agreeing to their tests and still gone to the media to complain like they have done. in fact he would have made them look like assholes and cowards even better by doing that, by agreeing to the fight and complaining at the same time.

it would be a non-story if he accepted the terms and objected for the reasons he's objecting for. This is just a bitch move by the mayweathers

3OG
12-26-2009, 04:58 AM
Yes sir! What else is standing between him signing for a 25million $ Check?!?!:nono:

r o o s t e r
12-26-2009, 05:23 AM
it would be a non-story if he accepted the terms and objected for the reasons he's objecting for. This is just a bitch move by the mayweathers

it'd be a story i reckon. if manny's camp had complained, it would have made the boxing press, and people'd be talking about on the messageboards. stipulations are always news, especially about this megafight, and especially if they show what a bitch floyd is.

Roll With The Punches
12-26-2009, 06:36 AM
PEDquaio

KaukipRrr
12-26-2009, 07:55 AM
Das da one, Roost, das da one,.. good posting,.. I agree it's all good and well to hate Fraud, it's therapeutically healthy infact, he's been one of boxing's biggest predators for quite some time, but the priorities here are a bit twisted for so called 'boxing fans', they want to 'replace' Fraud with another tool of aggressive and de-regulated capitalism?... presented as an 'amazing' super-human athlete that we, and I quote "get to marvel in the brilliance of" "7 divisions! greatest of all-time!",...and his reputation couldn't get any better, it's a dream come true, from the perspective of anyone in Pacquiao's team, or ofcourse, his resident fans here, who dont want the party to ever, ever end :lol:.. But there was one particular fighter, who couldn't be gagged on the negotiation table due to his own drawing power, and he's very conscientious of losing, so he puts in an ethically sound safety clause, and in an instant has blown this other filthy revenue generator to shit,.. and Im happy about that,.. it's why Arum is bucking around screaming like a psychotic brumby that's been caught in a snare, Fraud did this to protect himself from an opponent buzzing with performance enhancers, but it just so happens that there could be a refreshing influence of an overdue reform of stringent testing in this sport as a result of it,.. I dont expect Manny's future opponents to turn down by far and away a career high purse by requesting what Fraud 'dared' to request though, they aren't in the same financial position as him, so I'm glad the handlers of Pacquiao's "juicy exhibitions" didn't see this coming, they met perhaps the only fighter in boxing who could do this to them, that cat is out of the bag,.. when this, could have gone on forever.

Bruce
12-26-2009, 08:30 AM
it doesn't mean it already suggests you're on PEDs when you wouldn't want to do what the Mayweathers wanted you to do. that's what really the Mayweathers wanted to happen, cast doubt on Pacquiao. They're already having success to some degree it makes me puke. they have twisted intentions to boot.

if you have been following the news, what pacquiao is offering is pretty much sensible: he can give blood anytime before the fight but not within 48 hours before the fight; and right after the fight. it's really simple, he agrees to be tested (this is already extraordinary in the first place, and beyond what is required), but he'd like to have some flexibility his way. Floyd Sr simply is not a thinking animal, and wouldn't want to budge, for no sensible reason. my conclusion, they are simply scared of Pac. Even if I were Pacquiao I'd want to give those uneducated fools some lesson and wouldn't get myself bullied.

Baron
12-26-2009, 10:20 AM
The "Give the Mayweathers a lesson" angle cracks me up big time. As if any sane person would penalize themselves of over 25M USD just to give a "lesson". If you believe that, I've got a case of 3 dollar bills here worth 3 million, I'll sell it to you for 100K.

I don't know if Pac uses PED, but the way he acts right now and the fact that he called the fight off because of the tests isn't a way to clear out the doubts...

I'm very disappointed... Hopefully this is all a big publicity stunt to make sure this fight is even bigger than it already is.

mexican wedding shirt
12-26-2009, 11:25 AM
There should be a don't know option :kidcool:

r o o s t e r
12-26-2009, 12:31 PM
There should be a don't know option :kidcool:

wellll it's a "what do you think?" poll. if you had to guess, what'd you say?

mexican wedding shirt
12-26-2009, 01:16 PM
wellll it's a "what do you think?" poll. if you had to guess, what'd you say?

Even though I admit there is a huge possibility that he IS using HGH, I would have to vote no. Simply because there is no evidence, apart from some superb performances.

He shocked everyone when he moved straight from flyweight to 122, and fucked up ledwaba, then moved to featherweight and FUCKED Barrera up in brutal, 1 sided fashion. Do you also think he was using HGH then?

The Genius
12-26-2009, 07:18 PM
I voted yes but then I think all professional athletes are on PEDs.

They use whatever they can until testing catches up then they move on to the next thing. It's a reality of professional sports.

KaukipRrr
12-26-2009, 07:29 PM
I voted yes but then I think all professional athletes are on PEDs.

They use whatever they can until testing catches up then they move on to the next thing. It's a reality of professional sports.

Pedquiao fears he's behind the ball I guess.

Neil
12-26-2009, 07:35 PM
Floyd Sr simply is not a thinking animal, and wouldn't want to budge, for no sensible reason. my conclusion, they are simply scared of Pac. Even if I were Pacquiao I'd want to give those uneducated fools some lesson and wouldn't get myself bullied.

what does mayweather sr have to do with anything? he is his son's promoter, trainer, or adviser. he has no say so in fight negotiations.

ILLUMINATI
12-26-2009, 07:37 PM
NO......


but he isn't to sure...

Beyond the Grave
12-26-2009, 07:54 PM
As of now NO


And I'm glad he's standing his ground.He did nothing wrong and should not do that excessive test.FLOYD IS NOT IN CHARGE OF BOXING!!!!!

Punk
12-26-2009, 09:57 PM
As of now NO


And I'm glad he's standing his ground.He did nothing wrong and should not do that excessive test.FLOYD IS NOT IN CHARGE OF BOXING!!!!!

Totally agree.

mikE
12-26-2009, 10:17 PM
As of now NO


And I'm glad he's standing his ground.He did nothing wrong and should not do that excessive test.FLOYD IS NOT IN CHARGE OF BOXING!!!!!


Olympians around the world unite. No more excessive tests!!!

Ron King 702
12-26-2009, 10:53 PM
I voted yes but then I think all professional athletes are on PEDs.

They use whatever they can until testing catches up then they move on to the next thing. It's a reality of professional sports.


:bears::bears:

LOK
12-27-2009, 01:12 AM
no doubt about it

Erratic
12-27-2009, 01:14 AM
I voted yes but then I think all professional athletes are on PEDs.

They use whatever they can until testing catches up then they move on to the next thing. It's a reality of professional sports.

I agree of the most part. I won't say "all", just a lot more than we would like to think. I don't know why anyone in this day and age actually gets shocked when an athlete gets caught.

Especially in boxing with their lax testing. Flip Homansky was in the NSAC for over twenty years and he basically admitted, "if you're not sloppy, the commission won't catch you".

Hanz
12-27-2009, 01:24 AM
They do random drug testing in Tennis now. They passed a new law in the ATP where basically no matter where you are in the world, somebody can just show up and take a drug test right there on the spot. If you skip the test, you're banned for a year.

KaukipRrr
12-27-2009, 02:17 AM
Olympians around the world unite. No more excessive tests!!!

Yeah, pretty much, boxing always sets a tremendous precedent to other sports.

If they back down from the most rigorous and advanced drug testing apparatus I hope Fraud gets killed in the ring, and Pacqiuao dies of an overdose not long afterwards. That'd be what alot of these WWE equivalent fans around here deserve. Any real boxing fan should not be happy with vile corruption to not only slide by, but progressively get more and more flagrant,... it's like a serial killer,.. starts off with a pleasurable little stabbing ritual,..and in the end it's mutilating, decapitating limbs and drinking the blood of it's victims because nobody stopped it earlier.

The world economic meltdown is another nice little example of like-minded weeds.

Fighter
12-27-2009, 02:51 AM
Yeah, pretty much, boxing always sets a tremendous precedent to other sports.

If they back down from the most rigorous and advanced drug testing apparatus I hope Fraud gets killed in the ring, and Pacqiuao dies of an overdose not long afterwards. That'd be what alot of these WWE equivalent fans around here deserve. Any real boxing fan should not be happy with vile corruption to not only slide by, but progressively get more and more flagrant,... it's like a serial killer,.. starts off with a pleasurable little stabbing ritual,..and in the end it's mutilating, decapitating limbs and drinking the blood of it's victims because nobody stopped it earlier.

The world economic meltdown is another nice little example of like-minded weeds.

Aaah the sheer POSITIVISM overflowing...

Barristan
12-27-2009, 03:20 AM
Aaah the sheer POSITIVISM overflowing...
Thats not a word you dumb cocksucker

Barristan
12-27-2009, 03:22 AM
Well it looks like Fightbeat has spoken. We as a forum community have decided that Pedquioa is a cheater on PED's.

Fighter
12-27-2009, 03:36 AM
Thats not a word you dumb cocksucker

Damn, Are you sure? I've done a spellcheck and everything...

But you caught the jist of it, right?? right?

Erratic
12-27-2009, 03:55 AM
Positivism is a word according to the online Webster dictionary.


Yeah, pretty much, boxing always sets a tremendous precedent to other sports.

If they back down from the most rigorous and advanced drug testing apparatus I hope Fraud gets killed in the ring, and Pacqiuao dies of an overdose not long afterwards. That'd be what alot of these WWE equivalent fans around here deserve. Any real boxing fan should not be happy with vile corruption to not only slide by, but progressively get more and more flagrant,... it's like a serial killer,.. starts off with a pleasurable little stabbing ritual,..and in the end it's mutilating, decapitating limbs and drinking the blood of it's victims because nobody stopped it earlier.

The world economic meltdown is another nice little example of like-minded weeds.

You again with your morbid fascinations with serial killers and sociopathy.

Here's a page you might enjoy.

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/index.html

Barristan
12-27-2009, 04:05 AM
Damn, Are you sure? I've done a spellcheck and everything...

But you caught the jist of it, right?? right?

I was wrong as Eratic confirmed its a word :doh:

Fighter
12-27-2009, 04:24 AM
I was wrong as Eratic confirmed its a word :doh:

Don't hit yourself over the head because of it. Perfectly fine. Keep SLUGGING.

Barristan
12-27-2009, 04:55 AM
Don't hit yourself over the head because of it. Perfectly fine. Keep SLUGGING.

:kidcool:

KaukipRrr
12-27-2009, 09:07 AM
Positivism is a word according to the online Webster dictionary.



You again with your morbid fascinations with serial killers and sociopathy.

Here's a page you might enjoy.

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/index.html

:lol::crafty: You know I'm down with that already, and in my above post you'll know what I mean,.. 'progressively more savage' these capitalist arseholes are on the same spectrum you know.

Ah, incidentally,.. one of the better stories on that site,.. if you haven't read the article on Westley Allan Dodd,..I highly recommend, it's a 'cleaner, harder blow' to the mind, you strict counter-puncher.

royyjonesjrp4pno1
12-27-2009, 09:24 AM
They do random drug testing in Tennis now. They passed a new law in the ATP where basically no matter where you are in the world, somebody can just show up and take a drug test right there on the spot. If you skip the test, you're banned for a year.
Lucky for Manny P and Salty Shane that these rules are not in boxing.

Double L
12-28-2009, 05:30 PM
Everyone needs to quit quoting the $25MM as the cost of not having the fight. It's closer to $10MM when you consider what Pacquiao stands to make against the likes of Maligianni.

meetthefeebles
12-29-2009, 09:08 AM
I don't know if Manny is on PED's or not, and nor does anyone else here for that matter.

But what I do know is that there remains a fundamental principle of a person being innocent until proven guilty and it never ceases to amaze me just how quickly this principle can evaporate in the minds of even the most intelligent people.

The process by which a person is 'tried' in boxing might be deeply flawed. I'm not a doctor and so I wouldn't know just how flawed it is, but what I do know is that if there are better ways of testing for PED's then it is for the sanctioning bodies and/or boxing commissions to decide how best to improve it. If they so decide, then a boxer is under an instant obligation to undertake the new procedures. Until then, they are under precisely NO obligation to do anything more than is required by the rules, because SURELY that is why we have sanctioning bodies, commissions and arbiration bodies :dunno:

Manny has handled this whole business really, really badly and created a tidalwave of negativity for himself as a result. It may be that he has done so because he is on PED's and so has a lot to lose by accepting these tests. Equally possible, however, is that the whole business has just sprung out of nowhere and that Arum, roache and Manny have been taken by surprise by everything and failed to respond well. Only Manny, Roache and Pac know the truth.

What is absolutely true, however, is that Roger and Floyd Mayweather is not, and should never be, in a position to impose upon Manny or anyone else for that matter, a series of tests way over and above that which is imposed by any of the bodies and organisations who impliment and oversee PED testing as a fundamental part of their administrative role.

In these circumstances, Manny and his team are prefectly entitled to tell them to go fuck themselves until such a time that the rules are changed by an official body. And in doing so, they do not 'prove' their guilt or anything else. They are excerising their right to retain due process. And they have that right, along with every other boxer in the world. Until they undergo and fail the mechanisms of due process, Manny remains innocent of any wrongdoing.

MTF :fightme:

Irish 2002/2003
12-29-2009, 10:54 AM
I don't know if Manny is on PED's or not, and nor does anyone else here for that matter.

But what I do know is that there remains a fundamental principle of a person being innocent until proven guilty and it never ceases to amaze me just how quickly this principle can evaporate in the minds of even the most intelligent people.

The process by which a person is 'tried' in boxing might be deeply flawed. I'm not a doctor and so I wouldn't know just how flawed it is, but what I do know is that if there are better ways of testing for PED's then it is for the sanctioning bodies and/or boxing commissions to decide how best to improve it. If they so decide, then a boxer is under an instant obligation to undertake the new procedures. Until then, they are under precisely NO obligation to do anything more than is required by the rules, because SURELY that is why we have sanctioning bodies, commissions and arbiration bodies :dunno:

Manny has handled this whole business really, really badly and created a tidalwave of negativity for himself as a result. It may be that he has done so because he is on PED's and so has a lot to lose by accepting these tests. Equally possible, however, is that the whole business has just sprung out of nowhere and that Arum, roache and Manny have been taken by surprise by everything and failed to respond well. Only Manny, Roache and Pac know the truth.

What is absolutely true, however, is that Roger and Floyd Mayweather is not, and should never be, in a position to impose upon Manny or anyone else for that matter, a series of tests way over and above that which is imposed by any of the bodies and organisations who impliment and oversee PED testing as a fundamental part of their administrative role.

In these circumstances, Manny and his team are prefectly entitled to tell them to go fuck themselves until such a time that the rules are changed by an official body. And in doing so, they do not 'prove' their guilt or anything else. They are excerising their right to retain due process. And they have that right, along with every other boxer in the world. Until they undergo and fail the mechanisms of due process, Manny remains innocent of any wrongdoing.

MTF :fightme:

Its what I have been saying all along.

Whats even better is that they are now saying that the new tests could be faulty, so why should Floyd pay $500.000 for ever test passed.

If the new tests are possibly flawed, why all the furore over having them introduced here and now?

mexican wedding shirt
12-29-2009, 11:52 AM
I don't know if Manny is on PED's or not, and nor does anyone else here for that matter.

But what I do know is that there remains a fundamental principle of a person being innocent until proven guilty and it never ceases to amaze me just how quickly this principle can evaporate in the minds of even the most intelligent people.

The process by which a person is 'tried' in boxing might be deeply flawed. I'm not a doctor and so I wouldn't know just how flawed it is, but what I do know is that if there are better ways of testing for PED's then it is for the sanctioning bodies and/or boxing commissions to decide how best to improve it. If they so decide, then a boxer is under an instant obligation to undertake the new procedures. Until then, they are under precisely NO obligation to do anything more than is required by the rules, because SURELY that is why we have sanctioning bodies, commissions and arbiration bodies :dunno:

Manny has handled this whole business really, really badly and created a tidalwave of negativity for himself as a result. It may be that he has done so because he is on PED's and so has a lot to lose by accepting these tests. Equally possible, however, is that the whole business has just sprung out of nowhere and that Arum, roache and Manny have been taken by surprise by everything and failed to respond well. Only Manny, Roache and Pac know the truth.

What is absolutely true, however, is that Roger and Floyd Mayweather is not, and should never be, in a position to impose upon Manny or anyone else for that matter, a series of tests way over and above that which is imposed by any of the bodies and organisations who impliment and oversee PED testing as a fundamental part of their administrative role.

In these circumstances, Manny and his team are prefectly entitled to tell them to go fuck themselves until such a time that the rules are changed by an official body. And in doing so, they do not 'prove' their guilt or anything else. They are excerising their right to retain due process. And they have that right, along with every other boxer in the world. Until they undergo and fail the mechanisms of due process, Manny remains innocent of any wrongdoing.

MTF :fightme:

I totally agree with your whole post, including the bolded part.

Which is a real shame, because as you correctly pick up on, he's under no obligation to undergo the most extreme testing in boxing history, especially with no history of steroids.

He could and should have simply said "No, I'll follow the NSAC's procedures, just like for every other fight I've had". They've aroused more suspicion by the absurd way they've handled it, and stupid excuses etc.

Free Ike
12-29-2009, 11:56 AM
Probably, Yes.

mikE
12-29-2009, 12:04 PM
Everyone needs to quit quoting the $25MM as the cost of not having the fight. It's closer to $10MM when you consider what Pacquiao stands to make against the likes of Maligianni.

I don't think Manny makes $15 million for Malignaggiish fights. I'd guess closer to $3 million, maybe $5 million. Do you or anyone else know? You may be right because of the Phillipines monopoly, but I don't see Pacq being in the Tyson DLH category.

Irish 2002/2003
12-29-2009, 12:32 PM
I don't think Manny makes $15 million for Malignaggiish fights. I'd guess closer to $3 million, maybe $5 million. Do you or anyone else know? You may be right because of the Phillipines monopoly, but I don't see Pacq being in the Tyson DLH category.

You get nothing for mythical match-ups:nono:

Ropadope
12-29-2009, 03:35 PM
If Pac is afraid of needles, he could just have someone punch him in the nose and collect blood that way.

Outlander
12-29-2009, 04:58 PM
From one thread, quoting Victor Conte...


According to him,"Traditional testing in boxing, it’s basically worthless other than the detection of some types of stimulant, before and after a fight."
From yet another Pac thread, quoting RJJ..


GL: Do you see anything in Pacquiao that would lead you to feel suspicious?

RJ: "No. The kid is strong, he came up in weight and brought his stregth. Nowadays the testing is good enough, they got it to where you can't even take over the counter products. I can testify to that. The testing is very good right now and there's nothing he could really do that they can't find. Why make Pacquiao take the test and not anybody else?"
And from this thread...



What is absolutely true, however, is that Roger and Floyd Mayweather is not, and should never be, in a position to impose upon Manny or anyone else for that matter, a series of tests way over and above that which is imposed by any of the bodies and organisations who impliment and oversee PED testing as a fundamental part of their administrative role.



So let me get this straight. The existing tests in boxing, according to head drug cheat Victor Conte (who would know since his clients have beat these tests forever) are completely useless in detecting anything of note as long as the person being tested cycles down before the known test date.

Everyone knows this anyway. In fact, to me it is totally obvious that this is the reason the tests AREN'T updated. For you people who keep citing the fact that these tests are not changed as some sort of defense for the quality of the tests... wake up. They are not changed because there are too many fighters who are using PEDs, and all the way up the chain to managers, "nutritionists", promoters, etc., there is FAR too much money at stake to wreck this train. Why would any of them lobby for better testing?

And the existing tests are so good, hey? So good that RJJ even notes they pick up OTC products. Uhh.... last time I checked, false positives on these tests were a measure of how SHITTY the test is... not how GOOD it is. That is like claiming a police test for gunpowder residue on the hands also comes back positive if there was chewing gum present, and then touting how "in depth" the test is. So now we know that the current boxing tests couldn't catch confessed roider Shane Mosley, but they nailed Roy Jones for taking sudafed.

So if you are one of the fighters who doesn't do much in the area of PEDs.. and can fight at a high level without them.. what remedy do you have for others who juice to high heaven? If Floyd protested the various state commission testing processes, do you think he'd get them changed by March 13? How about by March 13, 2020? Nope.

So he does what many here are criticizing (which baffles me). He knows he can't possibly get the rules changed, hell it may not even be to HIS advantage if he plans to get back on the stuff for a later fight! So he does the one thing he can do - he uses the leverage of $$$$$ and tries to get this in for ONE fight. This is at least possible.

So for MTF... should Pac and Freddie Roach have been able to IMPOSE their demands for arbitrary catchweights on fighters like Miguel Cotto? Aren't weigh ins part of the "fundamental role" of these various organizations? But yet Pac gets to go in and threaten no fight if he doesn't get some goofy catchweight, right? And why? Because he knows Cotto will probably not want to pass up the $$$$.

This is using leverage to coerce an agreement between willing parties, and it happens every damn time two big fighters negotiate. EVERY time. So please explain to me what is SO much different and morally unacceptable about it THIS time? Pac isn't forced to agree. He can pass on the fight. What he doesn't like about this particular condition is that the repercussions of refusal are much more significant than, say, refusing a certain purse split or a certain catch weight or a certain ring size.

Pac got fucked by someone in a position to expose him, and he got fucked hard. He also reacted in such an absurd and extreme fashion that he further exposed himself. While there is always a very, very slim chance that Pac is clean and is somehow so bizarrely and uncharacteristically offended by having a few blood tests, if that were true you would expect him to come back to the table and negotiate a bit. Limit the number of random tests. Ask for an extra point on the split if he complies. This is what you would expect of someone who were either clean or at least clean enough that they could pass a few well-placed random tests leading up to the fight.

But Pac ain't clean, and he ain't clean enough to even conduct a training camp without the juice, so he will never agree, no matter how many millions he stands to lose, and no matter what effect it may have on his possibly all-time great career. I am sorry, but what sane person would do that to themselves if they were going to pass the tests anyway? This is so obvious it is hardly worth discussing.

REEDsART
12-29-2009, 05:12 PM
From one thread, quoting Victor Conte...
From yet another Pac thread, quoting RJJ..
And from this thread...


So let me get this straight. The existing tests in boxing, according to head drug cheat Victor Conte (who would know since his clients have beat these tests forever) are completely useless in detecting anything of note as long as the person being tested cycles down before the known test date.

Everyone knows this anyway. In fact, to me it is totally obvious that this is the reason the tests AREN'T updated. For you people who keep citing the fact that these tests are not changed as some sort of defense for the quality of the tests... wake up. They are not changed because there are too many fighters who are using PEDs, and all the way up the chain to managers, "nutritionists", promoters, etc., there is FAR too much money at stake to wreck this train. Why would any of them lobby for better testing?

And the existing tests are so good, hey? So good that RJJ even notes they pick up OTC products. Uhh.... last time I checked, false positives on these tests were a measure of how SHITTY the test is... not how GOOD it is. That is like claiming a police test for gunpowder residue on the hands also comes back positive if there was chewing gum present, and then touting how "in depth" the test is. So now we know that the current boxing tests couldn't catch confessed roider Shane Mosley, but they nailed Roy Jones for taking sudafed.

So if you are one of the fighters who doesn't do much in the area of PEDs.. and can fight at a high level without them.. what remedy do you have for others who juice to high heaven? If Floyd protested the various state commission testing processes, do you think he'd get them changed by March 13? How about by March 13, 2020? Nope.

So he does what many here are criticizing (which baffles me). He knows he can't possibly get the rules changed, hell it may not even be to HIS advantage if he plans to get back on the stuff for a later fight! So he does the one thing he can do - he uses the leverage of $$$$$ and tries to get this in for ONE fight. This is at least possible.

So for MTF... should Pac and Freddie Roach have been able to IMPOSE their demands for arbitrary catchweights on fighters like Miguel Cotto? Aren't weigh ins part of the "fundamental role" of these various organizations? But yet Pac gets to go in and threaten no fight if he doesn't get some goofy catchweight, right? And why? Because he knows Cotto will probably not want to pass up the $$$$.

This is using leverage to coerce an agreement between willing parties, and it happens every damn time two big fighters negotiate. EVERY time. So please explain to me what is SO much different and morally unacceptable about it THIS time? Pac isn't forced to agree. He can pass on the fight. What he doesn't like about this particular condition is that the repercussions of refusal are much more significant than, say, refusing a certain purse split or a certain catch weight or a certain ring size.

Pac got fucked by someone in a position to expose him, and he got fucked hard. He also reacted in such an absurd and extreme fashion that he further exposed himself. While there is always a very, very slim chance that Pac is clean and is somehow so bizarrely and uncharacteristically offended by having a few blood tests, if that were true you would expect him to come back to the table and negotiate a bit. Limit the number of random tests. Ask for an extra point on the split if he complies. This is what you would expect of someone who were either clean or at least clean enough that they could pass a few well-placed random tests leading up to the fight.

But Pac ain't clean, and he ain't clean enough to even conduct a training camp without the juice, so he will never agree, no matter how many millions he stands to lose, and no matter what effect it may have on his possibly all-time great career. I am sorry, but what sane person would do that to themselves if they were going to pass the tests anyway? This is so obvious it is hardly worth discussing.
WOW!!!...Excellent, EXCELLENT Post...REED Doesn't Expect ANY Pac Sac Swinger to Come within 10 Feet of ADDRESSING this Post...Well Done...


REED:hammert:

Haymaker
12-29-2009, 05:21 PM
From one thread, quoting Victor Conte...
From yet another Pac thread, quoting RJJ..
And from this thread...


So let me get this straight. The existing tests in boxing, according to head drug cheat Victor Conte (who would know since his clients have beat these tests forever) are completely useless in detecting anything of note as long as the person being tested cycles down before the known test date.

Everyone knows this anyway. In fact, to me it is totally obvious that this is the reason the tests AREN'T updated. For you people who keep citing the fact that these tests are not changed as some sort of defense for the quality of the tests... wake up. They are not changed because there are too many fighters who are using PEDs, and all the way up the chain to managers, "nutritionists", promoters, etc., there is FAR too much money at stake to wreck this train. Why would any of them lobby for better testing?

And the existing tests are so good, hey? So good that RJJ even notes they pick up OTC products. Uhh.... last time I checked, false positives on these tests were a measure of how SHITTY the test is... not how GOOD it is. That is like claiming a police test for gunpowder residue on the hands also comes back positive if there was chewing gum present, and then touting how "in depth" the test is. So now we know that the current boxing tests couldn't catch confessed roider Shane Mosley, but they nailed Roy Jones for taking sudafed.

So if you are one of the fighters who doesn't do much in the area of PEDs.. and can fight at a high level without them.. what remedy do you have for others who juice to high heaven? If Floyd protested the various state commission testing processes, do you think he'd get them changed by March 13? How about by March 13, 2020? Nope.

So he does what many here are criticizing (which baffles me). He knows he can't possibly get the rules changed, hell it may not even be to HIS advantage if he plans to get back on the stuff for a later fight! So he does the one thing he can do - he uses the leverage of $$$$$ and tries to get this in for ONE fight. This is at least possible.

So for MTF... should Pac and Freddie Roach have been able to IMPOSE their demands for arbitrary catchweights on fighters like Miguel Cotto? Aren't weigh ins part of the "fundamental role" of these various organizations? But yet Pac gets to go in and threaten no fight if he doesn't get some goofy catchweight, right? And why? Because he knows Cotto will probably not want to pass up the $$$$.

This is using leverage to coerce an agreement between willing parties, and it happens every damn time two big fighters negotiate. EVERY time. So please explain to me what is SO much different and morally unacceptable about it THIS time? Pac isn't forced to agree. He can pass on the fight. What he doesn't like about this particular condition is that the repercussions of refusal are much more significant than, say, refusing a certain purse split or a certain catch weight or a certain ring size.

Pac got fucked by someone in a position to expose him, and he got fucked hard. He also reacted in such an absurd and extreme fashion that he further exposed himself. While there is always a very, very slim chance that Pac is clean and is somehow so bizarrely and uncharacteristically offended by having a few blood tests, if that were true you would expect him to come back to the table and negotiate a bit. Limit the number of random tests. Ask for an extra point on the split if he complies. This is what you would expect of someone who were either clean or at least clean enough that they could pass a few well-placed random tests leading up to the fight.

But Pac ain't clean, and he ain't clean enough to even conduct a training camp without the juice, so he will never agree, no matter how many millions he stands to lose, and no matter what effect it may have on his possibly all-time great career. I am sorry, but what sane person would do that to themselves if they were going to pass the tests anyway? This is so obvious it is hardly worth discussing.

:bears:

dude, you should write for the homepage

Hex-One
12-29-2009, 05:23 PM
:bears:

dude, you should write for the homepage
Agreed he's good!

Hex-One
12-29-2009, 05:25 PM
From one thread, quoting Victor Conte...
From yet another Pac thread, quoting RJJ..
And from this thread...


So let me get this straight. The existing tests in boxing, according to head drug cheat Victor Conte (who would know since his clients have beat these tests forever) are completely useless in detecting anything of note as long as the person being tested cycles down before the known test date.

Everyone knows this anyway. In fact, to me it is totally obvious that this is the reason the tests AREN'T updated. For you people who keep citing the fact that these tests are not changed as some sort of defense for the quality of the tests... wake up. They are not changed because there are too many fighters who are using PEDs, and all the way up the chain to managers, "nutritionists", promoters, etc., there is FAR too much money at stake to wreck this train. Why would any of them lobby for better testing?

And the existing tests are so good, hey? So good that RJJ even notes they pick up OTC products. Uhh.... last time I checked, false positives on these tests were a measure of how SHITTY the test is... not how GOOD it is. That is like claiming a police test for gunpowder residue on the hands also comes back positive if there was chewing gum present, and then touting how "in depth" the test is. So now we know that the current boxing tests couldn't catch confessed roider Shane Mosley, but they nailed Roy Jones for taking sudafed.

So if you are one of the fighters who doesn't do much in the area of PEDs.. and can fight at a high level without them.. what remedy do you have for others who juice to high heaven? If Floyd protested the various state commission testing processes, do you think he'd get them changed by March 13? How about by March 13, 2020? Nope.

So he does what many here are criticizing (which baffles me). He knows he can't possibly get the rules changed, hell it may not even be to HIS advantage if he plans to get back on the stuff for a later fight! So he does the one thing he can do - he uses the leverage of $$$$$ and tries to get this in for ONE fight. This is at least possible.

So for MTF... should Pac and Freddie Roach have been able to IMPOSE their demands for arbitrary catchweights on fighters like Miguel Cotto? Aren't weigh ins part of the "fundamental role" of these various organizations? But yet Pac gets to go in and threaten no fight if he doesn't get some goofy catchweight, right? And why? Because he knows Cotto will probably not want to pass up the $$$$.

This is using leverage to coerce an agreement between willing parties, and it happens every damn time two big fighters negotiate. EVERY time. So please explain to me what is SO much different and morally unacceptable about it THIS time? Pac isn't forced to agree. He can pass on the fight. What he doesn't like about this particular condition is that the repercussions of refusal are much more significant than, say, refusing a certain purse split or a certain catch weight or a certain ring size.

Pac got fucked by someone in a position to expose him, and he got fucked hard. He also reacted in such an absurd and extreme fashion that he further exposed himself. While there is always a very, very slim chance that Pac is clean and is somehow so bizarrely and uncharacteristically offended by having a few blood tests, if that were true you would expect him to come back to the table and negotiate a bit. Limit the number of random tests. Ask for an extra point on the split if he complies. This is what you would expect of someone who were either clean or at least clean enough that they could pass a few well-placed random tests leading up to the fight.

But Pac ain't clean, and he ain't clean enough to even conduct a training camp without the juice, so he will never agree, no matter how many millions he stands to lose, and no matter what effect it may have on his possibly all-time great career. I am sorry, but what sane person would do that to themselves if they were going to pass the tests anyway? This is so obvious it is hardly worth discussing.


Damn this is good stuff! EXCELLENT!

Hex-One
12-29-2009, 05:35 PM
Everyone fled the scene after Outlander's post! :lol:

LOK
12-29-2009, 06:14 PM
But Pac ain't clean, and he ain't clean enough to even conduct a training camp without the juice, so he will never agree, no matter how many millions he stands to lose, and no matter what effect it may have on his possibly all-time great career. I am sorry, but what sane person would do that to themselves if they were going to pass the tests anyway? This is so obvious it is hardly worth discussing.

this sums it up:bears::bears:

if you are clean.. taking tests is not a big deal

Hex-One
12-29-2009, 06:18 PM
this sums it up:bears::bears:

if you are clean.. taking tests is not a big deal
Exactly!

REEDsART
12-29-2009, 06:35 PM
:bears:

dude, you should write for the homepage
agREED...REED & Others have Approached him about it...


REED:hammert:

Double L
12-29-2009, 06:36 PM
Suppose Pacquiao agrees to the tests, is clean, and loses the fight.

The same people who are questioning Pacquiao now will question him then.

In that sense, you can see why Pacquiao is very angry, regardless of how he plans to deal with the situation. Whether or not PBF is acting within his rights by making the demand, there's no doubt that Pacquiao and his repuation will suffer, and potentially, to no fault of his own.

mexican wedding shirt
12-29-2009, 06:39 PM
That's true.

Assume that Pacquiao IS clean.

Say he ends up agreeing to the tests, and loses a decision to Mayweather. Say he doesn't look great too, and is clearly outboxed.

To some, it's the expected result, but for others even that turn of events would create some doubt, as if he must have been roiding all along, and without roids he's nothing special

I said it about the day after this story emerged, that Pacquiao is pretty much in a lose lose situation.

salaco
12-29-2009, 06:39 PM
From one thread, quoting Victor Conte...
From yet another Pac thread, quoting RJJ..
And from this thread...


So let me get this straight. The existing tests in boxing, according to head drug cheat Victor Conte (who would know since his clients have beat these tests forever) are completely useless in detecting anything of note as long as the person being tested cycles down before the known test date.

Everyone knows this anyway. In fact, to me it is totally obvious that this is the reason the tests AREN'T updated. For you people who keep citing the fact that these tests are not changed as some sort of defense for the quality of the tests... wake up. They are not changed because there are too many fighters who are using PEDs, and all the way up the chain to managers, "nutritionists", promoters, etc., there is FAR too much money at stake to wreck this train. Why would any of them lobby for better testing?

And the existing tests are so good, hey? So good that RJJ even notes they pick up OTC products. Uhh.... last time I checked, false positives on these tests were a measure of how SHITTY the test is... not how GOOD it is. That is like claiming a police test for gunpowder residue on the hands also comes back positive if there was chewing gum present, and then touting how "in depth" the test is. So now we know that the current boxing tests couldn't catch confessed roider Shane Mosley, but they nailed Roy Jones for taking sudafed.

So if you are one of the fighters who doesn't do much in the area of PEDs.. and can fight at a high level without them.. what remedy do you have for others who juice to high heaven? If Floyd protested the various state commission testing processes, do you think he'd get them changed by March 13? How about by March 13, 2020? Nope.

So he does what many here are criticizing (which baffles me). He knows he can't possibly get the rules changed, hell it may not even be to HIS advantage if he plans to get back on the stuff for a later fight! So he does the one thing he can do - he uses the leverage of $$$$$ and tries to get this in for ONE fight. This is at least possible.

So for MTF... should Pac and Freddie Roach have been able to IMPOSE their demands for arbitrary catchweights on fighters like Miguel Cotto? Aren't weigh ins part of the "fundamental role" of these various organizations? But yet Pac gets to go in and threaten no fight if he doesn't get some goofy catchweight, right? And why? Because he knows Cotto will probably not want to pass up the $$$$.

This is using leverage to coerce an agreement between willing parties, and it happens every damn time two big fighters negotiate. EVERY time. So please explain to me what is SO much different and morally unacceptable about it THIS time? Pac isn't forced to agree. He can pass on the fight. What he doesn't like about this particular condition is that the repercussions of refusal are much more significant than, say, refusing a certain purse split or a certain catch weight or a certain ring size.

Pac got fucked by someone in a position to expose him, and he got fucked hard. He also reacted in such an absurd and extreme fashion that he further exposed himself. While there is always a very, very slim chance that Pac is clean and is somehow so bizarrely and uncharacteristically offended by having a few blood tests, if that were true you would expect him to come back to the table and negotiate a bit. Limit the number of random tests. Ask for an extra point on the split if he complies. This is what you would expect of someone who were either clean or at least clean enough that they could pass a few well-placed random tests leading up to the fight.

But Pac ain't clean, and he ain't clean enough to even conduct a training camp without the juice, so he will never agree, no matter how many millions he stands to lose, and no matter what effect it may have on his possibly all-time great career. I am sorry, but what sane person would do that to themselves if they were going to pass the tests anyway? This is so obvious it is hardly worth discussing.

That basically sums up the skeptic argument as outlined in several threads in the last few days. Hard to see how this could be mistaken for Pac-bashing or floyd-nuthugging.

REEDsART
12-29-2009, 06:48 PM
Suppose Pacquiao agrees to the tests, is clean, and loses the fight.

The same people who are questioning Pacquiao now will question him then.

In that sense, you can see why Pacquiao is very angry, regardless of how he plans to deal with the situation. Whether or not PBF is acting within his rights by making the demand, there's no doubt that Pacquiao and his repuation will suffer, and potentially, to no fault of his own.Bullshit...

Considering WHO the Opponent Is, @ WORST, Pac would Lose by DECISION, which is what Most Boxing Fans EXPECT Anyways...The ONLY Way Pac would B Questioned Post-Fight is if he was DESTROYED by Floyd in the Early Rounds, which is an IMPOSSIBILITY Given Floyd's Manner of Fighting....

Pac SHOULDN'T Win the Fight, WOULDN'T B Favored to Win the Fight AND Would REGAIN just about All of his Steadily DECLINING Credibility by Simply Taking & PASSING Random Tests....

It's a WIN-WIN Scenario for him, Long Term...

REED:hammert:

Double L
12-29-2009, 06:51 PM
Bullshit...

Considering WHO the Opponent Is, @ WORST, Pac would Lose by DECISION, which is what Most Boxing Fans EXPECT Anyways...The ONLY Way Pac would B Questioned Post-Fight is if he was DESTROYED by Floyd in the Early Rounds, which is an IMPOSSIBILITY Given Floyd's Manner of Fighting....

Pac SHOULDN'T Win the Fight, WOULDN'T B Favored to Win the Fight AND Would REGAIN just about All of his Steadily DECLINING Credibility by Simply Taking & PASSING Random Tests....

It's a WIN-WIN Scenario for him, Long Term...

REED:hammert:

I'm not sure how you can make that claim when Pacquiao was already suspected of using PEDs, even before PBF made his demands.

mexican wedding shirt
12-29-2009, 06:52 PM
Bullshit...

Considering WHO the Opponent Is, @ WORST, Pac would Lose by DECISION, which is what Most Boxing Fans EXPECT Anyways...The ONLY Way Pac would B Questioned Post-Fight is if he was DESTROYED by Floyd in the Early Rounds, which is an IMPOSSIBILITY Given Floyd's Manner of Fighting....

Pac SHOULDN'T Win the Fight, WOULDN'T B Favored to Win the Fight AND Would REGAIN just about All of his Steadily DECLINING Credibility by Simply Taking & PASSING Random Tests....

It's a WIN-WIN Scenario for him, Long Term...

REED:hammert:

I disagree, the same people that are labelling him guilty now (well not all of them, but many of them) would no doubt see the suspicious side of him losing to Floyd, especially if it was in 1 sided fashion.

That's one of the thoughts that occured to me after this story broke. He really is in a lose lose situation. Well, not really, because if he agrees to the tests and WINS, then he'll look extra good, not if he agrees and loses though.

You know what people are like anyway REED. People like drama and accusations etc.

If Pacquiao agrees to these tests and loses to Floyd, I have absolutely no doubt there'll be a plethora of people saying "See, I told you! He was obviously on the roids before!".

Hex-One
12-29-2009, 06:53 PM
Bullshit...

Considering WHO the Opponent Is, @ WORST, Pac would Lose by DECISION, which is what Most Boxing Fans EXPECT Anyways...The ONLY Way Pac would B Questioned Post-Fight is if he was DESTROYED by Floyd in the Early Rounds, which is an IMPOSSIBILITY Given Floyd's Manner of Fighting....

Pac SHOULDN'T Win the Fight, WOULDN'T B Favored to Win the Fight AND Would REGAIN just about All of his Steadily DECLINING Credibility by Simply Taking & PASSING Random Tests....

It's a WIN-WIN Scenario for him, Long Term...

REED:hammert:


Agreed! :hammert:

REEDsART
12-29-2009, 06:58 PM
That's true.

Assume that Pacquiao IS clean.

Say he ends up agreeing to the tests, and loses a decision to Mayweather. Say he doesn't look great too, and is clearly outboxed.

To some, it's the expected result, but for others even that turn of events would create some doubt, as if he must have been roiding all along, and without roids he's nothing special

I said it about the day after this story emerged, that Pacquiao is pretty much in a lose lose situation.
BULLSHIT, Brother Mex...

U just agREED w/REED the Other Day about Pac's Rep ONLY Being Harmed if he was an EARLY KO Victim of Floyd's...Floyd Mayweather IS NOT a "Puncher"...Floyd Mayweather DOES NOT Go for the Kill when he has a Hurt Opponent in Front of Him...Floyd Mayweather IS NOT an "Aggressive" Fighter, Per Se...So the Idea of him KO'ing Pac is COMICAL....

Pac was FAVORED to LOSE by Decision PRIOR to All of this so HOW Could a Decision Loss HURT him Now???...Seriously Man, You PAC Lovers R Bending Over BACKWARDS, Contorting Yourselfs in EVERY POSSIBLE Fashion, just to Make this BENEFICIAL For Pac...All the While, THE SIMPLEST, EASIEST Way to "Deal" w/this is by TAKING & PASSING Random Drug Testing...@ THIS Point, if Pac TRUELY IS Clean, he'd SWALLOW his Fucking Pride & Put an END to what HAS to B the WORST Week of his Prizefighting Life...w/Out Question, Pacquiao WINS by PASSING Random Drug Testing, Even if the Floyd Fight DOESN'T Go as he Hopes....

Outlander's Post is THE Most SPOT-ON Piece that's Been on this Site...& REED has even had a Slightly HEATED Exchange w/Him about Floyd in the Past, so he's CLEARLY IMPARTIAL Here....

Time to WAKE UP, Brother...

REED:hammert:

mexican wedding shirt
12-29-2009, 07:04 PM
I swear it's true.

Of course many people expect him to lose by decision, and even those who do, well like I said people like drama don't they?

Boxing fans aren't the most even minded, logical bunch either. I think a lot of boxing fans are actually pretty sharp compared to other sports fans, but they are quick to judge, and knee jerk reactions are rife in boxing.

I have no doubt at all that even a clear decision loss would be (somewhat) detrimental to Pacquiao, in that just losing clearly would be some indication that he must have been on roids before, to look so unbeatable.

If he wins obviously he wins, there's not much anyone can say other than "He must be still roiding" :lol: - but I think it would take at least a very close decision loss for people NOT to say "See I told you, he was on roids before".

REEDsART
12-29-2009, 07:11 PM
I disagree, the same people that are labelling him guilty now (well not all of them, but many of them) would no doubt see the suspicious side of him losing to Floyd, especially if it was in 1 sided fashion.

That's one of the thoughts that occured to me after this story broke. He really is in a lose lose situation. Well, not really, because if he agrees to the tests and WINS, then he'll look extra good, not if he agrees and loses though.

You know what people are like anyway REED. People like drama and accusations etc.

If Pacquiao agrees to these tests and loses to Floyd, I have absolutely no doubt there'll be a plethora of people saying "See, I told you! He was obviously on the roids before!".
If Pac Takes & PASSES Random Testing, THE ONLY Way he Comes Out Looking BAD is if Floyd STOPS him Early...But the Thing is, Floyd Mayweather HASN'T had a KO EARLIER than the 6th Round Since PRIOR to the Year 2000...

He AIN'T KO'ing Manny Pacquiao OR Manny PEDquiao...



REED:nono:

REEDsART
12-29-2009, 07:14 PM
I'm not sure how you can make that claim when Pacquiao was already suspected of using PEDs, even before PBF made his demands.
So NOW YOU'RE Playing the "He was ALREADY Suspected" Card, yet U're PISSY about Floyd CALLING him On It???...Is there a MORE OPENLY BIASED Poster @ Fightbeat???....



REED:lol:

mexican wedding shirt
12-29-2009, 07:16 PM
From one thread, quoting Victor Conte...
From yet another Pac thread, quoting RJJ..
And from this thread...


So let me get this straight. The existing tests in boxing, according to head drug cheat Victor Conte (who would know since his clients have beat these tests forever) are completely useless in detecting anything of note as long as the person being tested cycles down before the known test date.

Everyone knows this anyway. In fact, to me it is totally obvious that this is the reason the tests AREN'T updated. For you people who keep citing the fact that these tests are not changed as some sort of defense for the quality of the tests... wake up. They are not changed because there are too many fighters who are using PEDs, and all the way up the chain to managers, "nutritionists", promoters, etc., there is FAR too much money at stake to wreck this train. Why would any of them lobby for better testing?

And the existing tests are so good, hey? So good that RJJ even notes they pick up OTC products. Uhh.... last time I checked, false positives on these tests were a measure of how SHITTY the test is... not how GOOD it is. That is like claiming a police test for gunpowder residue on the hands also comes back positive if there was chewing gum present, and then touting how "in depth" the test is. So now we know that the current boxing tests couldn't catch confessed roider Shane Mosley, but they nailed Roy Jones for taking sudafed.

So if you are one of the fighters who doesn't do much in the area of PEDs.. and can fight at a high level without them.. what remedy do you have for others who juice to high heaven? If Floyd protested the various state commission testing processes, do you think he'd get them changed by March 13? How about by March 13, 2020? Nope.

So he does what many here are criticizing (which baffles me). He knows he can't possibly get the rules changed, hell it may not even be to HIS advantage if he plans to get back on the stuff for a later fight! So he does the one thing he can do - he uses the leverage of $$$$$ and tries to get this in for ONE fight. This is at least possible.

So for MTF... should Pac and Freddie Roach have been able to IMPOSE their demands for arbitrary catchweights on fighters like Miguel Cotto? Aren't weigh ins part of the "fundamental role" of these various organizations? But yet Pac gets to go in and threaten no fight if he doesn't get some goofy catchweight, right? And why? Because he knows Cotto will probably not want to pass up the $$$$.

This is using leverage to coerce an agreement between willing parties, and it happens every damn time two big fighters negotiate. EVERY time. So please explain to me what is SO much different and morally unacceptable about it THIS time? Pac isn't forced to agree. He can pass on the fight. What he doesn't like about this particular condition is that the repercussions of refusal are much more significant than, say, refusing a certain purse split or a certain catch weight or a certain ring size.

Pac got fucked by someone in a position to expose him, and he got fucked hard. He also reacted in such an absurd and extreme fashion that he further exposed himself. While there is always a very, very slim chance that Pac is clean and is somehow so bizarrely and uncharacteristically offended by having a few blood tests, if that were true you would expect him to come back to the table and negotiate a bit. Limit the number of random tests. Ask for an extra point on the split if he complies. This is what you would expect of someone who were either clean or at least clean enough that they could pass a few well-placed random tests leading up to the fight.

But Pac ain't clean, and he ain't clean enough to even conduct a training camp without the juice, so he will never agree, no matter how many millions he stands to lose, and no matter what effect it may have on his possibly all-time great career. I am sorry, but what sane person would do that to themselves if they were going to pass the tests anyway? This is so obvious it is hardly worth discussing.

:lol::lol: at the first point.

And to the second point, you don't know that. And that's the most important part of any of this speculation. We don't know if he is roiding or not. All I know is however shoddy the existing boxing tests are, some fighters still fail them, including a fighter that was trained by Roach - Toney. And those same tests, Pacquiao has never failed.

I also know that his name has never been linked to steroids.

He is innocent until proven guilty, and although he MAY well be juicing his balls off, I can fully understand why he might refuse even being completely innocent.

To be honest the one thing that makes me suspicious are the bullshit excuses, which I find far more suspicious that an outright refusal.

Suspicion is one thing, facts are another, and so far we only have some suspicion and hunches. The facts are Manny is officially roid free until proven otherwise.

mexican wedding shirt
12-29-2009, 07:18 PM
If Pac Takes & PASSES Random Testing, THE ONLY Way he Comes Out Looking BAD is if Floyd STOPS him Early...But the Thing is, Floyd Mayweather HASN'T had a KO EARLIER than the 6th Round Since PRIOR to the Year 2000...

He AIN'T KO'ing Manny Pacquiao OR Manny PEDquiao...



REED:nono:

I agree it's extremely unlikely Floyd KO's him, unless Manny somehow gets incredibly wild and reckless.

But I would be almost certain that a plethora of people on message boards and the odd scribe would use even a somewhat 1 sided decision loss as ammo that Pacquiao was roiding before.

meetthefeebles
12-30-2009, 08:20 AM
So let me get this straight. The existing tests in boxing, according to head drug cheat Victor Conte (who would know since his clients have beat these tests forever) are completely useless in detecting anything of note as long as the person being tested cycles down before the known test date.

The day we have to take the word of Victor Conte, arguably the most notorious liar in sports history, as gospel for anything is a sad day indeed, frankly. And if he was that much of a brilliant cheat, he wouldn't have been busted, would he? Anyway, what does Conte know about Manny? Was he involved directly? Does he know something we don't?


Everyone knows this anyway. In fact, to me it is totally obvious that this is the reason the tests AREN'T updated. For you people who keep citing the fact that these tests are not changed as some sort of defense for the quality of the tests... wake up. They are not changed because there are too many fighters who are using PEDs, and all the way up the chain to managers, "nutritionists", promoters, etc., there is FAR too much money at stake to wreck this train. Why would any of them lobby for better testing?

How do you know any of this? The answer, of course, is that you do not. You are speculating from a cynical point of view. No-one here knows if this is correct or otherwise. Indeed, you might well be right. But you cannot possibly know that you are and to state the position as one of fact is complete bullshit.


And the existing tests are so good, hey? So good that RJJ even notes they pick up OTC products. Uhh.... last time I checked, false positives on these tests were a measure of how SHITTY the test is... not how GOOD it is. That is like claiming a police test for gunpowder residue on the hands also comes back positive if there was chewing gum present, and then touting how "in depth" the test is. So now we know that the current boxing tests couldn't catch confessed roider Shane Mosley, but they nailed Roy Jones for taking sudafed.

If the present tests can be improved, they should be improved. I made that much clear in my previous post.


So if you are one of the fighters who doesn't do much in the area of PEDs.. and can fight at a high level without them.. what remedy do you have for others who juice to high heaven? If Floyd protested the various state commission testing processes, do you think he'd get them changed by March 13? How about by March 13, 2020? Nope.

Why wait until NOW to start the anti-PED lobbying, then? Why not do so five years ago when it became 'clear' to Floyd (or whoever else) that he was clean and that everyone else he was fighting (as you claim) was not? Why has Floyd, the apparent moral crusador in this instance, said almost NOTHING about PED's in his entire career but has decided NOW to unleash a shit-storm months before a super-fight he has, in principle, agreed to undertake?


So he does what many here are criticizing (which baffles me). He knows he can't possibly get the rules changed, hell it may not even be to HIS advantage if he plans to get back on the stuff for a later fight! So he does the one thing he can do - he uses the leverage of $$$$$ and tries to get this in for ONE fight. This is at least possible.

But if he had lobbied for this change years ago, as suggested above, he might well have gotten what he wanted. But then again, as you now admit, he himself might also be on the PED's, so instead his prior silence stems from self-preservation and this shit-storm, of his creation, has nothing to do with changing the tests, cleaning up the sport or levelling the playing fields. Oh no. It's about little old Floyd playing the current system for his own advantage. Well excuse me for not rushing to arms in support. In fact, if what you suggest is true, Mayweather is as big and culpable a cheat as you claim Manny is.


So for MTF... should Pac and Freddie Roach have been able to IMPOSE their demands for arbitrary catchweights on fighters like Miguel Cotto? Aren't weigh ins part of the "fundamental role" of these various organizations? But yet Pac gets to go in and threaten no fight if he doesn't get some goofy catchweight, right? And why? Because he knows Cotto will probably not want to pass up the $$$$.

No, Cotto should have fought at 147. I said so at the time, in fact, and have said so again since the fight. My position on this has been made very clear elsewhere- I hate catchweights.


This is using leverage to coerce an agreement between willing parties, and it happens every damn time two big fighters negotiate. EVERY time. So please explain to me what is SO much different and morally unacceptable about it THIS time? Pac isn't forced to agree. He can pass on the fight. What he doesn't like about this particular condition is that the repercussions of refusal are much more significant than, say, refusing a certain purse split or a certain catch weight or a certain ring size.

You are damn right the repercussions are great. Mayweather has reduced the negotiating, in public no less, to the lowest possible denominator. And don't let anyone think it wasn't deliberate, because it was. Mayweather Sr has been preparing this little stunt for quite some time, dropping little PED related quotes and accusations against Pac for months and months and months, waiting for the time to unleash the shit cloud.

You answer your own question. Refusing a fight because of a ring size, or a couple of pounds in weight and so on has no real or lasting personal affect on a fighter and his reputation. Drug related shit sticks, however, and the Mayweather's KNOW it. Take a look around at how you, REED and a variety of other intelligent, knowledgeable boxing supporters have already found Manny guilty and are moving onto sentencing. Based on what, exactly? His refusal to take tests set not by any ruling body or sanctioning organisation but by Roger and Floyd Mayweather?

What the fuck is the point in having sanctioning bodies and commissions if it is not THEY who are the arbitrators of such things? Is it not their responsibility to create the PROCEDURES, RULES and MECHANISMS which HAVE to be adhered to?


Pac got fucked by someone in a position to expose him, and he got fucked hard. He also reacted in such an absurd and extreme fashion that he further exposed himself. While there is always a very, very slim chance that Pac is clean and is somehow so bizarrely and uncharacteristically offended by having a few blood tests, if that were true you would expect him to come back to the table and negotiate a bit. Limit the number of random tests. Ask for an extra point on the split if he complies. This is what you would expect of someone who were either clean or at least clean enough that they could pass a few well-placed random tests leading up to the fight.

I already agreed that Manny has dealt with this VERY badly. I also already agreed that it is perfectly possible that this reaction could be because he has been taking PED's.


But Pac ain't clean

To be honest, this is the only pertinent part of your post and I could easily have simply responded directly to this, because this is clearly your starting point and it this which is deeply flawed. You have absolutely no idea whether or not Manny is clean. No-one here does. The only people who know this are Manny, Roache and Arum. You have no proof of any kind to make this kind of assertion and, were you to publish such an assertion, you would be legally liable for defamation and could be sued into the next century for it. This is a FACT and about the only fact that anyone here has.

Your entire post founds upon an assertion you are in absolutely no position to make and this is why your post is complete speculation and no more than that.

MTF

mexican wedding shirt
12-30-2009, 08:28 AM
The day we have to take the word of Victor Conte, arguably the most notorious liar in sports history, as gospel for anything is a sad day indeed, frankly. And if he was that much of a brilliant cheat, he wouldn't have been busted, would he? Anyway, what does Conte know about Manny? Was he involved directly? Does he know something we don't?



How do you know any of this? The answer, of course, is that you do not. You are speculating from a cynical point of view. No-one here knows if this is correct or otherwise. Indeed, you might well be right. But you cannot possibly know that you are and to state the position as one of fact is complete bullshit.



If the present tests can be improved, they should be improved. I made that much clear in my previous post.



Why wait until NOW to start the anti-PED lobbying, then? Why not do so five years ago when it became 'clear' to Floyd (or whoever else) that he was clean and that everyone else he was fighting (as you claim) was not? Why has Floyd, the apparent moral crusador in this instance, said almost NOTHING about PED's in his entire career but has decided NOW to unleash a shit-storm months before a super-fight he has, in principle, agreed to undertake?



But if he had lobbied for this change years ago, as suggested above, he might well have gotten what he wanted. But then again, as you now admit, he himself might also be on the PED's, so instead his prior silence stems from self-preservation and this shit-storm, of his creation, has nothing to do with changing the tests, cleaning up the sport or levelling the playing fields. Oh no. It's about little old Floyd playing the current system for his own advantage. Well excuse me for not rushing to arms in support. In fact, if what you suggest is true, Mayweather is as big and culpable a cheat as you claim Manny is.



No, Cotto should have fought at 147. I said so at the time, in fact, and have said so again since the fight. My position on this has been made very clear elsewhere- I hate catchweights.



You are damn right the repercussions are great. Mayweather has reduced the negotiating, in public no less, to the lowest possible denominator. And don't let anyone think it wasn't deliberate, because it was. Mayweather Sr has been preparing this little stunt for quite some time, dropping little PED related quotes and accusations against Pac for months and months and months, waiting for the time to unleash the shit cloud.

You answer your own question. Refusing a fight because of a ring size, or a couple of pounds in weight and so on has no real or lasting personal affect on a fighter and his reputation. Drug related shit sticks, however, and the Mayweather's KNOW it. Take a look around at how you, REED and a variety of other intelligent, knowledgeable boxing supporters have already found Manny guilty and are moving onto sentencing. Based on what, exactly? His refusal to take tests set not by any ruling body or sanctioning organisation but by Roger and Floyd Mayweather?

What the fuck is the point in having sanctioning bodies and commissions if it is not THEY who are the arbitrators of such things? Is it not their responsibility to create the PROCEDURES, RULES and MECHANISMS which HAVE to be adhered to?



I already agreed that Manny has dealt with this VERY badly. I also already agreed that it is perfectly possible that this reaction could be because he has been taking PED's.



To be honest, this is the only pertinent part of your post and I could easily have simply responded directly to this, because this is clearly your starting point and it this which is deeply flawed. You have absolutely no idea whether or not Manny is clean. No-one here does. The only people who know this are Manny, Roache and Arum. You have no proof of any kind to make this kind of assertion and, were you to publish such an assertion, you would be legally liable for defamation and could be sued into the next century for it. This is a FACT and about the only fact that anyone here has.

Your entire post founds upon an assertion you are in absolutely no position to make and this is why your post is complete speculation and no more than that.

MTF

Brilliant post.

Just like everybody elses, Outlander's post is pure speculation and assumption. People were fawning over it because it was nicely written, but ultimately it's just as speculative, just as assuming, and no more factual than anyone else's.

The important facts in this case are that Manny has never failed a drug test or been linked to steroids in any tangible way, and that Floyd has never requested testing approaching this level before to any of his opponents.

I also agree that Team Manny have dealt with it extremely badly, and made themselves look more guilty than they possibly are.

The Genius
12-30-2009, 08:37 AM
So we're taking the word of VICTOR CONTE as gospel now? The guy is as dirty as they come but because it supports the arguement you want to pass him off as an 'expert'?

Outlander's post was on point as usual but it suffers from assumption. I agree that Pac has handled this about as badly as he possibly could but there is NO evidence to say he's on PEDs. NONE.

I think he is (I think all top boxers/athletes are) but no one can categorically state that he is. He has never tested positive in multiple tests.

Anyone saying that Pac's wins now have to have an asterisk? Mark one next to every professional fighter that has fought at the top level and never tested positive. Think that's a stretch? Why? Isn't that exactly what's happening with Manny now?

No evidence but a guilty verdict nonetheless. Just be prepared to use the same rationale across the board.

meetthefeebles
12-30-2009, 08:45 AM
So we're taking the word of VICTOR CONTE as gospel now? The guy is as dirty as they come but because it supports the arguement you want to pass him off as an 'expert'?

Outlander's post was on point as usual but it suffers from assumption. I agree that Pac has handled this about as badly as he possibly could but there is NO evidence to say he's on PEDs. NONE.

I think he is (I think all top boxers/athletes are) but no one can categorically state that he is. He has never tested positive in multiple tests.

Anyone saying that Pac's wins now have to have an asterisk? Mark one next to every professional fighter that has fought at the top level and never tested positive. Think that's a stretch? Why? Isn't that exactly what's happening with Manny now?

No evidence but a guilty verdict nonetheless. Just be prepared to use the same rationale across the board.

Agreed, and I find the bolded part especially sad.

What does it say about our sport and those who follow it most passionately that the most phenominally successful, watchable and likeable fighter of many a year has become convicted of cheating in the minds of a majority (according to the poll in this thread) on the basis of, well, nothing bar a refusal to accept a contractual demand from another fighter?

It's almost as if people are actively willing Manny to be a cheat, instead of presuming his innocence (as any rational person in a rational society with any pretence to a 'rule of law' ought to) until such a time as his guilt is proven.

MTF :dunno:

mexican wedding shirt
12-30-2009, 08:45 AM
So we're taking the word of VICTOR CONTE as gospel now? The guy is as dirty as they come but because it supports the arguement you want to pass him off as an 'expert'?

Outlander's post was on point as usual but it suffers from assumption. I agree that Pac has handled this about as badly as he possibly could but there is NO evidence to say he's on PEDs. NONE.

I think he is (I think all top boxers/athletes are) but no one can categorically state that he is. He has never tested positive in multiple tests.

Anyone saying that Pac's wins now have to have an asterisk? Mark one next to every professional fighter that has fought at the top level and never tested positive. Think that's a stretch? Why? Isn't that exactly what's happening with Manny now?

No evidence but a guilty verdict nonetheless. Just be prepared to use the same rationale across the board.

:bears:

Bang on. You're starting to give Aussie posters a good name Genius :kidcool:

mexican wedding shirt
12-30-2009, 08:49 AM
Agreed, and I find the bolded part especially sad.

What does it say about our sport and those who follow it most passionately that the most phenominally successful, watchable and likeable fighter of many a year has become convicted of cheating in the minds of a majority (according to the poll in this thread) on the basis of, well, nothing bar a refusal to accept a contractual demand from another fighter?

It's almost as if people are actively willing Manny to be a cheat, instead of presuming his innocence (as any rational person in a rational society with any pretence to a 'rule of law' ought to) until such a time as his guilt is proven.

MTF :dunno:

Unfortunately it's part of the make-up of boxing fans, these sort of knee jerk reactions, and unfair, fickle, presumptive nature.

It's why I can't understand why REED was arguing with me that nobody would still be accusing Manny of roiding if he were to agree to these tests and clearly lose to Floyd.

There's absolutely no doubt there would be a huge amount of people, probably the odd scribe included, citing a clear loss to Floyd as further "evidence" that Manny was roided up to the eyeballs before. That's just what boxing is like, just like when someone loses they are "exposed".

And that's exactly why I said before that Pacman is in a lose lose situation to some extent.

The Genius
12-30-2009, 09:03 AM
There's absolutely no doubt there would be a huge amount of people, probably the odd scribe included, citing a clear loss to Floyd as further "evidence" that Manny was roided up to the eyeballs before. That's just what boxing is like, just like when someone loses they are "exposed".


It will definitely happen. Floyd will beat Manny and it won't be close. I personally think Floyd will give Manny the Ricky Hatton treatment. KO mid rounds. 7 or 8 I think.

After it, people will say it was because Pac wasn't able to roid.

mexican wedding shirt
12-30-2009, 09:30 AM
Genius, where as I disagree with you on the outcome (I'm picking Manny by decision, but of course I know Floyd might win) - you KNOW it, that there's no doubt what we say would happen if Manny did lose clearly to Floyd, whether by KO or decision. That's exactly what many, many people would say.

Just curious though, what makes you think Floyd is going to KO Manny, and why are you so sure Floyd wins?

Floyd couldn't even KO chinny Judah.

I can see Floyd winning a VERY safety first decision, but opening up enough to KO Manny? Who has an excellent chin? I can't see it.

The Genius
12-30-2009, 09:43 AM
Genius, where as I disagree with you on the outcome (I'm picking Manny by decision, but of course I know Floyd might win) - you KNOW it, that there's no doubt what we say would happen if Manny did lose clearly to Floyd, whether by KO or decision. That's exactly what many, many people would say.

Just curious though, what makes you think Floyd is going to KO Manny, and why are you so sure Floyd wins?

Floyd couldn't even KO chinny Judah.

I can see Floyd winning a VERY safety first decision, but opening up enough to KO Manny? Who has an excellent chin? I can't see it.

I'm not sure. It's a feeling I've had about this matchup for a long time. I think that while Manny has been able to confuse he last few opponents with angles, he's going to have a really hard time hitting Floyd. Judah is chinny but Hatton isn't/wasn't and Floyd iced him. I think FM had more trouble with Judah's speed then anything else.

I just see Pac getting caught throwing an awkward punch and at least knocked down. Floyd's speed has diminished, but he's faster than Pac's last few opponents and with the possible exception of Cotto, he's bigger too.

Pac will get overaggressive (possibly due to FM going for a safety first stinker) and FM will catch him cold. I don't believe that May doesn't have KO power, I just think he doesn't sit down on his punches often enough to do the job.

mexican wedding shirt
12-30-2009, 09:55 AM
You cite Judah's speed as troubling Floyd, Manny is even faster than Judah, especially the 147 pound Judah that Floyd fought.

There's no doubt Manny's speed and being a southpaw is going to trouble Floyd a lot.

And while Floyd has slowed down, you're right, he is significantly quicker than Pacquiao's last 3 opponents. He is also much rangier than Hatton and Cotto.

There's no doubt Floyd is going to be able to catch Pacquiao.

But it's going to be with potshots.

You know I agree Floyd is not feather fisted, it's just that his safety first style doesn't really lend itself to KO's.

But he is not a puncher either. Hatton literally RAN into that punch, was already tired etc too. It was an impressive KO, but you have to look at Floyd's whole career to judge his power.

And given how safety first he was even against MARQUEZ for fucks sake, can you really imagine him taking any risks or commiting to shots against a super quick, powerful beast like Pacquiao?

I could be wrong, but I just can't see it. Just like I find it hard to see Pacquiao KOing Floyd. A KO either way seems unlikely for the simple fact that Floyd is so fucking cautious and boring.

Plus there is an absolutely huge difference between Pacquiao's defense and Hatton's defense. Pacquaio's all round defense and head movement has improved tremendously, and even when he gets a bit wild, he never RUNS into shots like Hatton does.

The Genius
12-30-2009, 10:00 AM
You cite Judah's speed as troubling Floyd, Manny is even faster than Judah, especially the 147 pound Judah that Floyd fought.

There's no doubt Manny's speed and being a southpaw is going to trouble Floyd a lot.

And while Floyd has slowed down, you're right, he is significantly quicker than Pacquiao's last 3 opponents. He is also much rangier than Hatton and Cotto.

There's no doubt Floyd is going to be able to catch Pacquiao.

But it's going to be with potshots.

You know I agree Floyd is not feather fisted, it's just that his safety first style doesn't really lend itself to KO's.

But he is not a puncher either. Hatton literally RAN into that punch, was already tired etc too. It was an impressive KO, but you have to look at Floyd's whole career to judge his power.

And given how safety first he was even against MARQUEZ for fucks sake, can you really imagine him taking any risks or commiting to shots against a super quick, powerful beast like Pacquiao?

I could be wrong, but I just can't see it. Just like I find it hard to see Pacquiao KOing Floyd. A KO either way seems unlikely for the simple fact that Floyd is so fucking cautious and boring.

Plus there is an absolutely huge difference between Pacquiao's defense and Hatton's defense. Pacquaio's all round defense and head movement has improved tremendously, and even when he gets a bit wild, he never RUNS into shots like Hatton does.

I hope we'll get to see who's right. Like I said, I've just had a feeling about this fight. I think FM will make it look easy.

EDIT: Hatton ran into that shot because he was frustrated by Floyd's style. I think Pac will do the same thing albeit not a stupidly as Hatton. One hard potshot could be all it takes. It depends on the timing. Floyd has the speed and counterpunching ability to capitalise on mistakes. Both guys will have to box a perfect fight, I just think Floyd has more chance of doing that than Manny.

mexican wedding shirt
12-30-2009, 11:20 AM
Funnily enough Hut Hut has the same "feeling" about the fight as you.

I sure as fuck hope you're both wrong :kidcool:

Thinking about it logically, I can't see it. Floyd is too cautious, Pacquiao is too tough.

And while Floyd is the hardest to hit fighter in boxing, don't forget Pacquiao is perhaps the fastest, hardest and most unpredictable puncher in boxing.

Unless Floyd pulls a Dirrell, he is getting hit by Pacman.

Double L
12-30-2009, 12:29 PM
Funnily enough Hut Hut has the same "feeling" about the fight as you.

I sure as fuck hope you're both wrong :kidcool:

Thinking about it logically, I can't see it. Floyd is too cautious, Pacquiao is too tough.

And while Floyd is the hardest to hit fighter in boxing, don't forget Pacquiao is perhaps the fastest, hardest and most unpredictable puncher in boxing.

Unless Floyd pulls a Dirrell, he is getting hit by Pacman.

Dirrell gets hit plenty. Plus, you forgot to mention that Pacquiao, besides being a hard, fast and unpredictable puncher, is the best combination puncher in the sport. Everything he does is in combination. That will be key against Mayweather.

LOK
12-30-2009, 12:44 PM
I already have a bet on this fight that Floyd KO's Pac

mexican wedding shirt
12-30-2009, 12:53 PM
Dirrell gets hit plenty. Plus, you forgot to mention that Pacquiao, besides being a hard, fast and unpredictable puncher, is the best combination puncher in the sport. Everything he does is in combination. That will be key against Mayweather.


I guess I didn't clarify my point well enough.

I know Dirrell gets hit plenty, it's not like any fighter that fights like Dirrell is impossible to hit.

But with Floyd's excellent defense, would you not agree that he would be even harder to hit if he were to run as much as Dirrell?

And I agree, Flid is going to find it pretty difficult once Pacquiao closes in on him, to shoulder roll flurries of hard, fast shots coming from different angles.

IMDAZED
12-30-2009, 12:56 PM
Nice lil quote from the Daily News Today:

This isn't some issue that just came about. It has been a part of the contract negotiations for weeks. According to a source familiar with the talks, Pacquiao's representatives asked what penalties Pacquiao would face if he tested dirty, and also if a dirty test result could be kept secret so that the integrity of the fight wouldn't be ruined in the public eye.

mexican wedding shirt
12-30-2009, 01:17 PM
Kenneth, is this source familiar to the talks the same guy that told you that Hollywood is a hotbed for roids?

Also, is Floyd going to require Matthew Hatton to undergo the same Olympic style testing?

IMDAZED
12-30-2009, 01:33 PM
Kenneth, is this source familiar to the talks the same guy that told you that Hollywood is a hotbed for roids?

Also, is Floyd going to require Matthew Hatton to undergo the same Olympic style testing?

It's Tim Smith in the Daily News.

Hex-One
12-30-2009, 04:17 PM
Pacman should just agree to the test and go and try to KNOCK PBF THE FUCK OUT. If he aint got shit to hide why not go along with it? Can you imagine how great it will be for Pac to pass all the tests and beat PBF?


I would think all the Pacman fans would agree with this then rather to have him accused of using PED's everyday. WTF???

Alabama_Man
12-30-2009, 04:20 PM
Pacman should just agree to the test and go and try to KNOCK PBF THE FUCK OUT. If he aint got shit to hide why not go along with it? Can you imagine how great it will be for Pac to pass all the tests and beat PBF?


I would think all the Pacman fans would agree with this then rather to have him accused of using PED's everyday. WTF???

You do realize you are vilifying an innocent man, right?

Hex-One
12-30-2009, 04:23 PM
You do realize you are vilifying an innocent man, right?

:lol:

Alabama_Man
12-30-2009, 04:24 PM
:lol:

Oscar Dela Hoya and Leonard Ellerbe were counting on people like you.

Hex-One
12-30-2009, 04:33 PM
Oscar Dela Hoya and Leonard Ellerbe were counting on people like you.

Ughhhh can you stop being so damn dramatic? :lol:

Alabama_Man
12-30-2009, 04:57 PM
Ughhhh can you stop being so damn dramatic? :lol:

Oscar and Leonard want to give you a big hug for supporting their smear campaign.

Erratic
12-30-2009, 08:39 PM
Kenneth, is this source familiar to the talks the same guy that told you that Hollywood is a hotbed for roids?


I've heard things like that too.

Makes sense, the entertainment industry is so obsessed with looks.

Erratic
12-30-2009, 09:24 PM
Freddie Roach interview

http://www.doghouseboxing.com/DHB/Tyler123009.htm

KaukipRrr
12-30-2009, 10:53 PM
Freddie Roach interview

http://www.doghouseboxing.com/DHB/Tyler123009.htm

He's a fake piece of shit who's feeling the pressure,.. he's in on it, and he knows it, only the gag money against non-draw fighters is keeping things afloat.

Irish 2002/2003
12-31-2009, 12:27 AM
He's a fake piece of shit who's feeling the pressure,.. he's in on it, and he knows it, only the gag money against non-draw fighters is keeping things afloat.

Do you remember what I said about Freddie Roach??

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12-31-2009, 10:45 AM
It's Tim Smith in the Daily News.

I know who Tim Smith is. I'm talking about the "source".

KaukipRrr
12-31-2009, 10:51 AM
Do you remember what I said about Freddie Roach??

Yes, you praised him impeccably :pray:.

r o o s t e r
12-31-2009, 11:30 PM
Freddie Roach interview

http://www.doghouseboxing.com/DHB/Tyler123009.htm

no wonder roach got irritated: this guy seems to need more practice at conducting interviews.