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slystaff
03-09-2010, 12:22 PM
Should Richard Steele have stopped the Chavez-Taylor fight?

Buddy Rydell
03-09-2010, 12:32 PM
I thought it was 4 seconds.

slystaff
03-09-2010, 12:33 PM
I thought it was 4 seconds.
You thought wrong.

Official time at the end of the fight was 2 Mins and 58 seconds of the 12th round.

Ugotabe Kidding
03-09-2010, 12:35 PM
I thought it was 4 seconds.

It was 4 seconds til the end when Steele made up his mind. The clock went two more seconds.

And Steele's ruling was correct. Taylor was in no condition to continue and the fight was not over, therefore it is referees job to stop the fight.

Buddy Rydell
03-09-2010, 12:39 PM
My bad.

He was horribly beaten though. He didn't answer Steele when Steele asked if he were ok, bottom line.

Hut*Hut
03-09-2010, 12:40 PM
I think there's a second angle to consider here beyond the fighters safety (which of course is paramount) - the fact that Chavez had done enough to practically incapacitate his opponent within the 36 minute fight limit. That being the case he'd done enough to have a W TKO next to his name. Conversely Taylor hadn't done enough to last the full 36 minutes.

Correct decision, IMO.

Buddy Rydell
03-09-2010, 12:40 PM
It was 4 seconds til the end when Steele made up his mind. The clock went two more seconds.

And Steele's ruling was correct. Taylor was in no condition to continue and the fight was not over, therefore it is referees job to stop the fight.

See, sly. I didn't think wrong. I'm just going from memory while you're going from Meldrick's book. :lol:

Buddy Rydell
03-09-2010, 12:42 PM
If a ref asks you something and you can't or don't answer after having had the living shit beat out of you, he can stop it whenever he wants. Steele probably didn't know what time it was, and the fighter's safety did come first. :dunno:

Irish 2002/2003
03-09-2010, 12:45 PM
Didn't Gene Pitney bring out a song about this?

Pitney feat Taylor..."And I was Only 2 Seconds From Glory, Baby".

slystaff
03-09-2010, 12:50 PM
For many years I was of the view that Steele was wrong to stop the fight...given the fact that both men were unbeaten, Taylor was winning the fight and there were less than 10 seconds left at that point and therefore Chavez probably wouldn't have landed even one more punch.

But...I've changed my mind recently.

Steele, being the Ref, was closer to both fighters and as such could see the punishment that taylor was receiving when the rest of us were wowed by taylor's flurries. Steele could see the blood and swelling up close...but more importantly...Steele's not keeping his eye on the clock or listening for teh 10 second warning.....and when Taylor got up from the canvas he didn't answer Steele's questions but rather looked away from Steele at his cornermen.

A Ref's primary job is to protect the fighters...and if you ask a fightr a question after a hard knock down after a hard fight and his face is a bloody swollen mess and he doesn't respond...you have no choice but to stop it.

Therefore..Steele made the right call......

Irish 2002/2003
03-09-2010, 12:53 PM
Steele was wrong. There is no way Chavez could have landed another meaningful punch. Taylor was badly beaten and Steele was probably under instructions to make sure that Chavez got the W anyways. What use was a victorious bashed-up Taylor to Don King? About half as much as a victorious undefeated Chavez.

Ugotabe Kidding
03-09-2010, 12:59 PM
The only thing worth criticizing would have been that Chavez had left the neutral corner during the count and Steele didn't notice that. That however happens often and in this case Steele had a reason to concentrate on Taylor alone that it shouldn't matter IMO

Hut*Hut
03-09-2010, 01:01 PM
Steele was wrong. There is no way Chavez could have landed another meaningful punch. Taylor was badly beaten and Steele was probably under instructions to make sure that Chavez got the W anyways. What use was a victorious bashed-up Taylor to Don King? About half as much as a victorious undefeated Chavez.

If you don't mind taking the time to answer, out of curiosity, how would you respond to the point I made, Irish?

Irish 2002/2003
03-09-2010, 02:02 PM
If you don't mind taking the time to answer, out of curiosity, how would you respond to the point I made, Irish?

I usually just make my own point, refresh the screen, and then bask in the glory of my point. I didn't know you had made one.





Seriously....your point is good, from a combat point of view, Taylor "winning" the fight was perverse. But those are also the rules, so I guess it works both ways.

In that Taylor was standing, was cogent and conscious....we can argue thus that he was not truly incapacitated. If he was, he never would have stood back up and looked at Steele.

Hut*Hut
03-09-2010, 02:25 PM
I usually just make my own point, refresh the screen, and then bask in the glory of my point. I didn't know you had made one.





Seriously....your point is good, from a combat point of view, Taylor "winning" the fight was perverse. But those are also the rules, so I guess it works both ways.

In that Taylor was standing, was cogent and conscious....we can argue thus that he was not truly incapacitated. If he was, he never would have stood back up and looked at Steele.

Well he was in no fit state to defend himself, standing or no. If it had happened at any other point in the fight, even 5-10s before then there would be ZERO debate about the stoppage.

Personally, I think fair's fair, Chavez had achieved what the rules of boxing say is the objective of he sport, within the 36 minutes available, he deserved the W.

Buddy Rydell
03-09-2010, 02:28 PM
If a ref thinks you're no longer able to defend yourself, he is right to stop it. Steele was up close and saw Taylor was bigtime screwed.

Taylor spent at least a few weeks in the hospital and was pissing pure blood afterwards. That doesn't have anything to do with Steele's choice to stop it, but Steele was in the closest position to determine the fighter's health and he saw a fighter messed up from a prolonged beating who wasn't answering back.

Xplosive
03-09-2010, 02:31 PM
Theres 4 sure things in life..... death, taxes, and that once every few months on FB someone will post a "Who really won Floyd-Castillo 1?" thread and "Should Chavez-Taylor been stopped?" thread.

Godfather
03-09-2010, 02:52 PM
2 seconds left, 1 second left, 0.5 seconds left it doesnt matter. If the fight was still going, it would be Horrific to rob chavez of that victory just because Chavez couldnt land another shot. Chavez beat that man. And the ref thought Taylor couldnt continue in the fight.

Trplsec
03-09-2010, 02:55 PM
Safety of the fighter my ass. This is the same exact Richard Steele that let Tommy Hearns continue when he was almost asleep after Iran Barkley starched him. Tommy honestly didn't even beat the count and had his mouthpiece hanging out and was completely gone yet Steele let it go. Hearns was still loopy several minutes afterwards.

That's my problem with Steele stopping Taylor-Chavez. No consistency.

However, the stoppage didn't change Meldrick's career. After that beating he was still going to struggle with guys like Brown and Aaron Davis. And he was still going to get drilled by Terry Norris. The beating took it's toll regardless of who got the win.

whiskey
03-09-2010, 06:23 PM
Theres 4 sure things in life..... death, taxes, and that once every few months on FB someone will post a "Who really won Floyd-Castillo 1?" thread and "Should Chavez-Taylor been stopped?" thread.

What's your opinion on a Super Heavyweight division?

slystaff
03-09-2010, 06:49 PM
What's your opinion on a Super Heavyweight division?
why? :bangh:

Erratic
03-09-2010, 08:37 PM
Safety of the fighter my ass. This is the same exact Richard Steele that let Tommy Hearns continue when he was almost asleep after Iran Barkley starched him. Tommy honestly didn't even beat the count and had his mouthpiece hanging out and was completely gone yet Steele let it go. Hearns was still loopy several minutes afterwards.

That's my problem with Steele stopping Taylor-Chavez. No consistency.

However, the stoppage didn't change Meldrick's career. After that beating he was still going to struggle with guys like Brown and Aaron Davis. And he was still going to get drilled by Terry Norris. The beating took it's toll regardless of who got the win.

Yep. Not only the physical beating, but the move up in weight. He said he had weight problems at 140 and the talent level was really deep around that time at 147. Win or lose against Chavez, or no Chavez fight at all, I see him always being one of those guys who would've lacked longevity at the top level, as good as he was.

Irish 2002/2003
03-09-2010, 08:58 PM
I think the lack of a really big punch hurt Meldrick a lot. If you are going to "Fight Philly" then having a punch helps.

slystaff
03-09-2010, 09:08 PM
I think the lack of a really big punch hurt Meldrick a lot. If you are going to "Fight Philly" then having a punch helps.
word.

Very intelligent post.

Irish 2002/2003
03-09-2010, 09:21 PM
word.

Very intelligent post.

He must the fastest stupid fighter ever:-

"I have all this handspeed. Fuck it, let's slug":bangh:

Buddy Rydell
03-10-2010, 08:11 AM
Safety of the fighter my ass. This is the same exact Richard Steele that let Tommy Hearns continue when he was almost asleep after Iran Barkley starched him. Tommy honestly didn't even beat the count and had his mouthpiece hanging out and was completely gone yet Steele let it go. Hearns was still loopy several minutes afterwards.

That's my problem with Steele stopping Taylor-Chavez. No consistency.

However, the stoppage didn't change Meldrick's career. After that beating he was still going to struggle with guys like Brown and Aaron Davis. And he was still going to get drilled by Terry Norris. The beating took it's toll regardless of who got the win.

The stoppage may not have changed Meldrick's career, but the beating sure did.

Still, sometimes a referee blows a call, and I would say that Steele did with the earlier Barkley-Hearns 1. Letting a guy take an unneeded beating after he goes down and can't respond is wrong. It doesn't matter what time it is. People should remember that the ref is not the timekeeper. The ref is the one who ensures fighters' safety and makes the tough call.

panchyprsss
03-10-2010, 09:01 AM
For many years I thought that Taylor was robbed and that Steele was under contract by Don King to make sure Chavez got protected to get a win. However, recently I have changed my mind. Steele did the right thing. He asked Taylor TWICE "Are you okay?" and Taylor did not answered and was looking away. Boxers and refs knows the rules. He had to stop the fight. Americans and Chavez haters (like I used to be) despised Steele for that decision, but in fact the guy did exactly what he was supposed to do under those circumstances.

Erratic
03-10-2010, 05:37 PM
He must the fastest stupid fighter ever:-

"I have all this handspeed. Fuck it, let's slug":bangh:

I think Judah might have that title.

Irish 2002/2003
03-10-2010, 07:38 PM
I think Judah might have that title.

No, that's:- "I have all this handspeed....don't plaaaaaay with maaaaaathcceeeesss"

mikE
03-10-2010, 07:43 PM
2 seconds left, 1 second left, 0.5 seconds left it doesnt matter. If the fight was still going, it would be Horrific to rob chavez of that victory just because Chavez couldnt land another shot. Chavez beat that man. And the ref thought Taylor couldnt continue in the fight.

I agree with this. But I also believe that a fighter shouldn't have to be able to continue if there is no more time left in the last round. He should only have to make it to his feet.

Buddy Rydell
03-10-2010, 08:18 PM
I agree with this. But I also believe that a fighter shouldn't have to be able to continue if there is no more time left in the last round. He should only have to make it to his feet.

Problem is, he wasn't saved by the bell because there was still time left. If you don't respond and the ref thinks you're done, it's your fault for not responding.

Irish 2002/2003
03-10-2010, 08:23 PM
If Meldrick was trapped on the ropes taking flush headshots with 2 seconds left in the fight, then fine, stop it. That's a good stoppage. Chavez, in position and with his feet set, might get off 10 damaging blows in 2 seconds, any of which could have fatally damaged the weakened Taylor.

But stopping it with 2 seconds left, with Chavez having to cover the distance involved, re-set, and start again....nah...I ain't buying it.

Godfather
03-11-2010, 12:39 AM
If Meldrick was trapped on the ropes taking flush headshots with 2 seconds left in the fight, then fine, stop it. That's a good stoppage. Chavez, in position and with his feet set, might get off 10 damaging blows in 2 seconds, any of which could have fatally damaged the weakened Taylor.

But stopping it with 2 seconds left, with Chavez having to cover the distance involved, re-set, and start again....nah...I ain't buying it.
Not fair to Chavez. Just because he has to travel distance to go after Taylor shouldnt take away from the fact that Taylor was not responding. Chavez beat him and it doesnt matter if he had to take a Bus to get to taylor. Allowing the fight to continue would be a robbery for Chavez.

cdogg187
03-12-2010, 01:51 AM
He didnt respond... fight over... this has been argued for 20 years... I still back Steele... I have seen stoppages A MILLION TIMES more questionable

cdogg187
03-12-2010, 01:52 AM
If Meldrick was trapped on the ropes taking flush headshots with 2 seconds left in the fight, then fine, stop it. That's a good stoppage. Chavez, in position and with his feet set, might get off 10 damaging blows in 2 seconds, any of which could have fatally damaged the weakened Taylor.

But stopping it with 2 seconds left, with Chavez having to cover the distance involved, re-set, and start again....nah...I ain't buying it.


ARE YOU OK? ARE YOU OK?

NO RESPONSE

Fight over... the time is completely irrelevant... rounds are scheduled for THREE minutes... not 2, not 2:56 or 2:58... THREE minutes

Trplsec
03-12-2010, 10:40 AM
ARE YOU OK? ARE YOU OK?

NO RESPONSE

Fight over... the time is completely irrelevant... rounds are scheduled for THREE minutes... not 2, not 2:56 or 2:58... THREE minutes

That's a fantastic point if Richard Steele practiced this same methodology in all the fights he worked. Again I point to him letting Hearns-Barkley 1 continue after Tommy barely wobbled back to his feet and was still in lala land.

If you give Hearns a chance to take a few more shots, the same luxury could have been afford to Meldrick who 1) was up much quicker 2) much steadier on his feet 3) and didn't look like he just woke up from a 20 hour hangover.

Inconsistency is my only issue with Steele and the stoppage.

Ugotabe Kidding
03-12-2010, 10:54 AM
That's a fantastic point if Richard Steele practiced this same methodology in all the fights he worked. Again I point to him letting Hearns-Barkley 1 continue after Tommy barely wobbled back to his feet and was still in lala land.

If you give Hearns a chance to take a few more shots, the same luxury could have been afford to Meldrick who 1) was up much quicker 2) much steadier on his feet 3) and didn't look like he just woke up from a 20 hour hangover.

Inconsistency is my only issue with Steele and the stoppage.

I don't really get this point of yours. No referee judges every situation exactly the same and every fight is different. For example based on fighter's styles a referee could allow more clinching than another time. Also when he decides about the stoppage, the beating a fighter has been taking naturally has an affect on what the ref decides to do. If a fighter goes down early, it is only logical to give him more chance to recover than to a guy who has been taking a terrible beating for several rounds.

furthermore, just maybe Steele learned something from the mistake he did in Hearns-barkley. Surely you can't expect a ref who lets a fight go too long so that one guy dies to do it every time to be consistent? Steele was correct, and he was one of the best refs ever

Trplsec
03-12-2010, 11:17 AM
I don't really get this point of yours. No referee judges every situation exactly the same and every fight is different. For example based on fighter's styles a referee could allow more clinching than another time. Also when he decides about the stoppage, the beating a fighter has been taking naturally has an affect on what the ref decides to do. If a fighter goes down early, it is only logical to give him more chance to recover than to a guy who has been taking a terrible beating for several rounds.

furthermore, just maybe Steele learned something from the mistake he did in Hearns-barkley. Surely you can't expect a ref who lets a fight go too long so that one guy dies to do it every time to be consistent? Steele was correct, and he was one of the best refs ever

Well, you don't get my point but you just nailed it. Steele had to be wrong in one of these situations. Either he stopped Meldrick too soon or he let Hearns go too long.

You can pick which was wrong, but one of them was a mistake by Steele. Maybe he did learn from the Hearn's mistake, but then it would be a mistake. And that, in a nutshell, is my only point.

Ugotabe Kidding
03-12-2010, 12:09 PM
Well, you don't get my point but you just nailed it. Steele had to be wrong in one of these situations. Either he stopped Meldrick too soon or he let Hearns go too long.

I disagree that one of these stoppages had to be wrong. It is not just about whether or not fighter can walk straight after the knockdown, everything that has happened so far should affect. Had Chavez knocked Taylor down with similar punch in the second round, Steele probably would have checked his condition a bit longer. Now that Taylor went down after 12 rounds of brutal battering and could not respond to Steele anymore, there was no question, the fight needed to be stopped

Trplsec
03-12-2010, 03:10 PM
I disagree that one of these stoppages had to be wrong. It is not just about whether or not fighter can walk straight after the knockdown, everything that has happened so far should affect. Had Chavez knocked Taylor down with similar punch in the second round, Steele probably would have checked his condition a bit longer. Now that Taylor went down after 12 rounds of brutal battering and could not respond to Steele anymore, there was no question, the fight needed to be stopped

So you're saying that allowing Hearns to continue despite his condition was OK because it was only the 2nd round and he really hadn't taken much of a beating to that point.

OK. We'll just have to disagree. In my opinion, regardless of the round or what has happened to that point, when a guy barely gets up and looks as badly as Hearns did, you stop it. If a guy clearly looks like he can't defend himself if allowed to continue, you stop it.

What I really find amazing is that you say Steele would have checked Meldrick's condition longer if the KD happened in the 2nd round. So in essence he would have given Meldrick longer to regain awareness. And some how that seems fair to do it in the 2nd while the fight is fairly even but not in the 12th when Meldrick clearly had a points advantage? Wow.

I guess I'm just a bit odd in my thoughts on this one.