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View Full Version : Who wins this round robin?



Destruction and Mayhem
04-10-2012, 03:51 PM
Each fighter has to fight each of the others twice.

Primes:

Joe Louis
Rocky Marciano
Joe Frazier
Evander Holyfield

Muzse
04-10-2012, 03:57 PM
I know who wouldn't win...Frazier. Marciano's the only guy Frazier could beat.

Louis probably wins. It's between him and Holyfield.

Irish 2002/2003
04-10-2012, 03:59 PM
Frazier, simply because he is tougher than Louis and Holyfield and bigger than Marciano, he'd have more left towards the end. He was never in an easy fight but there is no monster there to damage him. Oh, he could lose to any of those guys, sure, but they'd pay such a price that Frazier would be the last man standing when it was all said and done.

If the Super Six has shown us one thing its that selective timing and the avoiding of hard fights, or punishment in those fights, is as much a factor in winning a tournament as any talent or lack thereof.

Wins might add up but so does the punishment. Always remember, Ali beat the shit out of Chuvalo, but Chuvalo went home, Ali went to hospital with kidney damage.

Hut*Hut
04-10-2012, 04:07 PM
Those are 12 crazy fights. No idea who wins.

ILLUMINATI
04-10-2012, 04:07 PM
Frazier, simply because he is tougher than Louis and Holyfield and bigger than Marciano, he'd have more left towards the end. He was never in an easy fight but there is no monster there to damage him. Oh, he could lose to any of those guys, sure, but they'd pay such a price that Frazier would be the last man standing when it was all said and done.

If the Super Six has shown us one thing its that selective timing and the avoiding of hard fights, or punishment in those fights, is as much a factor in winning a tournament as any talent or lack thereof.

Wins might add up but so does the punishment. Always remember, Ali beat the shit out of Chuvalo, but Chuvalo went home, Ali went to hospital with kidney damage.


Are you talking about Taylor...because he was the only one involved in the super 6 that had taken serious damage before it started et. Pavlik fights. Everyone else was relatively FRESH.....and WARD won because he was the best boxer of the BUNCH...

whiskey
04-10-2012, 04:09 PM
Those are 12 crazy fights. No idea who wins.

Agreed. Even the fights that ended quickly would be exciting and violent for as long as they lasted.

Not sure who wins but i'd pretty confident Marciano is at the bottom.

Muzse
04-10-2012, 04:10 PM
Frazier, simply because he is tougher than Louis and Holyfield and bigger than Marciano, he'd have more left towards the end. He was never in an easy fight but there is no monster there to damage him. Oh, he could lose to any of those guys, sure, but they'd pay such a price that Frazier would be the last man standing when it was all said and done.

If the Super Six has shown us one thing its that selective timing and the avoiding of hard fights, or punishment in those fights, is as much a factor in winning a tournament as any talent or lack thereof.

Wins might add up but so does the punishment. Always remember, Ali beat the shit out of Chuvalo, but Chuvalo went home, Ali went to hospital with kidney damage.

Holyfield has no trouble with Frazier. Tyson was stronger, faster, hit harder and could KO you with either hand. Holyfield manhandled him.

The only thing Frazier does is keep coming forward to take the ass kicking Holyfield dishes out. Frazier is probably the most overrated heavyweight of all time.

steve_dave
04-10-2012, 04:12 PM
Holyfield has no trouble with Frazier. Tyson was stronger, faster, hit harder and could KO you with either hand. Holyfield manhandled him.

The only thing Frazier does is keep coming forward to take the ass kicking Holyfield dishes out. Frazier is probably the most overrated heavyweight of all time.

I think you're ignoring important intangibles when comparing Frazier to the '96 Tyson.

Muzse
04-10-2012, 04:15 PM
I think you're ignoring important intangibles when comparing Frazier to the '96 Tyson.


"Like I said before"

Joe comes forward to take the ass kicking Holyfield doles out. That's the only intangible. Mike wilted, Joe would be there the whole 12 or 15 taking a Tex Cobb type ass kicking.

Hut*Hut
04-10-2012, 04:16 PM
Frazier and Tyson were very different. Frazier fought inside, Tyson didn't.

Muzse
04-10-2012, 04:17 PM
Frazier and Tyson were very different. Frazier fought inside, Tyson didn't.

Tyson was a better fighter than Joe.

I can see Marciano and Frazier splitting their matches which are the only matches either guy wins.

Destruction and Mayhem
04-10-2012, 04:17 PM
Those are 12 crazy fights. No idea who wins.

word. Would have been a superb 4 way rivalry. Each fight woul dhave been a classic.

steve_dave
04-10-2012, 04:18 PM
"Like I said before"

Joe comes forward to take the ass kicking Holyfield doles out. That's the only intangible. Mike wilted, Joe would be there the whole 12 or 15 taking a Tex Cobb type ass kicking.

I'd pick Holyfield too, but I think Frazier would win a bunch of rounds. Even at his peak Holyfield liked to rest in there, usually by getting hit a lot. Frazier at his peak was an animal - shit, even by the time he fought Foreman he was 10 pounds over his best fighting weight. :stir:

steve_dave
04-10-2012, 04:18 PM
Tyson was a better fighter than Joe.

Not in 1996 I don't think.

Destruction and Mayhem
04-10-2012, 04:21 PM
Like Muzse, I tend to lean towards Louis, with Evander being my second pick.

Make no mistake though...all of the fights would be competitive.

Muzse
04-10-2012, 04:22 PM
Not in 1996 I don't think.


Holyfield most likely beats any version of Tyson. Tyson in his prime years would have a better shot but the bottom line is...Holyfield was always a straight puncher compared to Tyson...he'd always land first.

With that said, Holyfield wasn't in his prime either when he fought Tyson in '96. It's safe to say that both guys in their primes makes a hell of a fight and I'd still favor Holyfield.

Frazier doesn't beat either version of Evander.

steve_dave
04-10-2012, 04:22 PM
Like Muzse, I tend to lean towards Louis, with Evander being my second pick.

Make no mistake though...all of the fights would be competitive.

Yeah, there's no Tex Cobb like beating in the bunch.

steve_dave
04-10-2012, 04:25 PM
Holyfield most likely beats any version of Tyson. Tyson in his prime years would have a better shot but the bottom line is...Holyfield was always a straight puncher compared to Tyson...he'd always land first.

With that said, Holyfield wasn't in his prime either when he fought Tyson in '96. It's safe to say that both guys in their primes makes a hell of a fight and I'd still favor Holyfield.

Frazier doesn't beat either version of Evander.

Yep, no doubt Evander was on the other side of it when he beat Tyson. Personally, I think Frazier beats that Holyfield. Tyson didn't make him work, Frazier would... he wasn't able to maintain much of a pace.

Early 90s Holyfield against early 70s Frazier might be the best action matchup in heavyweight history.

Destruction and Mayhem
04-10-2012, 04:29 PM
Yep, no doubt Evander was on the other side of it when he beat Tyson. Personally, I think Frazier beats that Holyfield. Tyson didn't make him work, Frazier would... he wasn't able to maintain much of a pace.

Early 90s Holyfield against early 70s Frazier might be the best action matchup in heavyweight history.

I concur.

The Evander that beat Tyson beats Frazier though IMO.

Rainmaker
04-10-2012, 04:30 PM
Holyfield has no trouble with Frazier. Tyson was stronger, faster, hit harder and could KO you with either hand. Holyfield manhandled him.

The only thing Frazier does is keep coming forward to take the ass kicking Holyfield dishes out. Frazier is probably the most overrated heavyweight of all time.
Dwight Muhammed Qawi gave Holyfield a very tough fight.

steve_dave
04-10-2012, 04:34 PM
I concur.

The Evander that beat Tyson beats Frazier though IMO.

I don't see it. I can't think of any spurt fighters with questionable stamina and a lack of one punch power I'd pick over a peak Frazier.

REEDsART
04-10-2012, 04:35 PM
Holyfield...



REED:shadow:

Destruction and Mayhem
04-10-2012, 04:35 PM
Dwight Muhammed Qawi gave Holyfield a very tough fight.

Yeah but shit happens from time to time in boxing.

Muzse
04-10-2012, 04:39 PM
Dwight Muhammed Qawi gave Holyfield a very tough fight.


In Evander's 10th pro fight...a 15 round fight at that.

Ugotabe Kidding
04-10-2012, 04:40 PM
Lewis and Holy would beat the two others. Between them, I guess I'd give the edge to Holy but with no certainity

steve_dave
04-10-2012, 04:41 PM
In Evander's 10th pro fight...a 15 round fight at that.

Holyfield was matched tough right away. I remember watching his pro debut on tape a decade or so ago... was a war.

Destruction and Mayhem
04-10-2012, 04:43 PM
Lewis and Holy would beat the two others. Between them, I guess I'd give the edge to Holy but with no certainity

No....Louis.

REEDsART
04-10-2012, 04:43 PM
Dwight Muhammed Qawi gave Holyfield a very tough fight.
Their 1st Bout was Holyfield's 8th Pro Fight & 1st 15 Rounder...He Couldn't have Been More Green..."However", in the RE a Couple Years Later, Holyfield Wiped his Ass w/Qawi...




REED:fightme:

steve_dave
04-10-2012, 04:44 PM
It was Holyfield's 12th fight. :nono:

Destruction and Mayhem
04-10-2012, 04:45 PM
Their 1st Bout was Holyfield's 8th Pro Fight & 1st 15 Rounder...He Couldn't have Been More Green..."However", in the RE a Couple Years Later, Holyfield Wiped his Ass w/Qawi...



REED:fightme:

........And flushed him down the toilet.

REEDsART
04-10-2012, 04:51 PM
I don't see it. I can't think of any spurt fighters with questionable stamina and a lack of one punch power I'd pick over a peak Frazier.
By the Time Ali Fought Frazier, he was a "Spurt Fighter" Who LACKED "One Punch Power"....He Beat Frazier TWICE...



REED:dancingBaby:

REEDsART
04-10-2012, 04:53 PM
It was Holyfield's 12th fight. :nono:REED's Bad...

Still, Beating Qawi in a Toe to Toe Slugfest, 12 Fights Deeeeeeeeep, is QUITE a Feat...



REED:cheer:

steve_dave
04-10-2012, 05:01 PM
By the Time Ali Fought Frazier, he was a "Spurt Fighter" Who LACKED "One Punch Power"....He Beat Frazier TWICE...



REED:dancingBaby:

But Frazier beat him in the big one, before Joe had been brutally knocked out by Foreman.

Just don't see it.

steve_dave
04-10-2012, 05:02 PM
REED's Bad...

Still, Beating Qawi in a Toe to Toe Slugfest, 12 Fights Deeeeeeeeep, is QUITE a Feat...



REED:cheer:

No doubt. Qawi was a short little badass.

REEDsART
04-10-2012, 05:45 PM
But Frazier beat him in the big one, before Joe had been brutally knocked out by Foreman.

Just don't see it.
Holyfield was a BUSIER Fighter than the Version of Ali that Frazier Fought...Probably Hit a Tad HARDER as Well...

"The Big One" Took ALOT Out of Frazier...Dude was in the Hospital for like a MONTH or So....Holyfield would B the Bigger, Taller & Likely the STRONGER Man...Frazier was Essentially a 1 Armed Fighter...

Holyfield was GREAT @ the 2 Armed SHOVE; the Same One Foreman Effectively Used to Keep Frazier @ a Distance...It'd B a GREAT Fight, but Holyfield BEATS Frazier 7-8 Out of 10 Times...




REED:fightme:

whiskey
04-10-2012, 06:00 PM
Holyfield was GREAT @ the 2 Armed SHOVE; the Same One Foreman Effectively Used to Keep Frazier @ a Distance...It'd B a GREAT Fight, but Holyfield BEATS Frazier 7-8 Out of 10 Times...



AgREED. I've always favored Holyfield in this matchup but it would be a tremendous battle. Nothing one sided about it.

cdogg187
04-10-2012, 07:56 PM
Calling Holyfield/Frazier a one-sided fight is insane

Irish 2002/2003
04-10-2012, 10:43 PM
Are you talking about Taylor...because he was the only one involved in the super 6 that had taken serious damage before it started et. Pavlik fights. Everyone else was relatively FRESH.....and WARD won because he was the best boxer of the BUNCH...

Ward won because he minimized the punishment he took throughout, for various reasons. Froch was in a war with Kessler, who then pulled out. Taylor went into the tournament damaged and soon pulled out. Dirrell couldn't hack it or got brain-damaged whatever, he pulled out. It was won by the guy who took the least punishment- for whatever reasons- his style, talent, fighting Allan Green and not Glen Johnson, whatever.

Punishment adds up just as fast as wins, and sometimes faster.

Irish 2002/2003
04-10-2012, 10:51 PM
Frazier and Tyson were very different. Frazier fought inside, Tyson didn't.

Frazier wouldn't stop hitting Evander. The question wasn't who would win between in a fight, Frazier vs Holyfield. The question was who would win the tournament, and the winner of the tournament is Frazier, because Evander would find God or find a hole in his heart or lose too much salts or lose the contact number of the guy at Balco or whatever.

In a round-robin, Frazier wins, because Frazier is a hard bastard and of the 4 guys named, he's probably naturally the biggest guys.

Evander may well beat him, but Evander probably can't beat Marciano and Frazier without the damage catching up and he has a Bert Cooper moment with Joe Louis, except Joe Louis finishes him. That's how I see it playing out. Or Holy could fight Marciano, stop him on cuts but only after Marciano breaks Holyfields palate bone and depresses his left orbital eye-socket. Holyfield could well slice and dice Marciano but Evander always got caught and Marciano always hurt whoever he hit. Holyfields career is littered with injuries, delays, medical scares etc.

Free Ike
04-11-2012, 01:50 AM
I'd favor Frazier or the Bastard Maker. The one guy who would have no chance is JOE Louis. He was a tiny skilless bum and wouldn't have a belt today if he fought. The guy had no skill at all and a bad chin.Rocco was skilless but tough and durable unlike Louis who developed his legacy on part time fighters, bums or men smaller. Louis would never beat any of them ever. He would never go 15 with any of them. hE LOSES BY KAYO and is out in the first round.

REEDsART
04-11-2012, 02:42 AM
Frazier wouldn't stop hitting Evander. The question wasn't who would win between in a fight, Frazier vs Holyfield. The question was who would win the tournament, and the winner of the tournament is Frazier, because Evander would find God or find a hole in his heart or lose too much salts or lose the contact number of the guy at Balco or whatever.

In a round-robin, Frazier wins, because Frazier is a hard bastard and of the 4 guys named, he's probably naturally the biggest guys.

Evander may well beat him, but Evander probably can't beat Marciano and Frazier without the damage catching up and he has a Bert Cooper moment with Joe Louis, except Joe Louis finishes him. That's how I see it playing out. Or Holy could fight Marciano, stop him on cuts but only after Marciano breaks Holyfields palate bone and depresses his left orbital eye-socket. Holyfield could well slice and dice Marciano but Evander always got caught and Marciano always hurt whoever he hit. Holyfields career is littered with injuries, delays, medical scares etc.
Frazier Could just as Easily have an "Oscar Bonavena Moment"....



REED:cheer:

Hut*Hut
04-11-2012, 05:10 AM
I'd favor Frazier or the Bastard Maker. The one guy who would have no chance is JOE Louis. He was a tiny skilless bum and wouldn't have a belt today if he fought. The guy had no skill at all and a bad chin.Rocco was skilless but tough.....

Stop saying things just to shock Ike, we're all big boys here.

REEDsART
04-11-2012, 06:01 AM
Stop saying things just to shock Ike, we're all big boys here.
Sadly, that's All SHITS & GIGGLES is Good For...Aside from Shock Value, he's Got a Big Bag of NATHAN...



REED:limp:

Free Ike
04-11-2012, 10:50 AM
Stop saying things just to shock Ike, we're all big boys here.

There is tape on Joe Louis. If you think he was good, you need to find a new sport. He was awful, slow, chinny, uncoordinated just shitty. Put down the Ring Magazine and think for yourself. To me, heavyweight boxing , especially in the mythical sense like this thread, begins in the Ali era. Any good fighter from the 70's would thrash Joe Louis. There isn't a single good heavyweight that i'D PICK lOUIS OVER. The guy's resume was awful. LOUIS would NOT even beat WLAD Pussy. He'd lose 1000 out of 1000.He might beat Ruiz. He'd lose to Mercer and Bowe level guys.Frankly, the heavyweight era should be divided into the black and white and then the "modern." Marciano was bad too. I would fear for the lives of Marciano and Louis if they fought a prime Tyson, even Frazier. Death would be likely.

Irish 2002/2003
04-11-2012, 01:02 PM
Frazier Could just as Easily have an "Oscar Bonavena Moment"....



REED:cheer:

I said that continuously about Frazier in a fight with Vitali Klitschko, but nobody seemed interested. Frazier got hurt by everyone but, bar Foreman, he put it on everybody he ever fought. They all paid a price.

Pascals Wager
04-11-2012, 03:22 PM
Frazier beats Holy-Conditioning.
Overall, I'd say Louis or Frazier. Marciano last.

Irish 2002/2003
04-11-2012, 06:01 PM
Frazier beats Holy-Conditioning.
Overall, I'd say Louis or Frazier. Marciano last.

Yeah, Marciano has too many hail-mary moments in his career for my liking, hard to see him getting the lucky breaks often enough in a round robin to win it.

I liken Frazier to a bigger version of Marciano with a few differences, I actually think Marciano did a few things better- he may have been a bit harder to hit, his crouch might top Joe's head-movement thing, and he might have been a bit more two-fisted. Not enough to beat Joe two times out of two though.

REEDsART
04-11-2012, 10:53 PM
I said that continuously about Frazier in a fight with Vitali Klitschko, but nobody seemed interested. Frazier got hurt by everyone but, bar Foreman, he put it on everybody he ever fought. They all paid a price.
What, if Anything, Does that have to Do w/REED Or the Topic @ Hand???...

REED Thinks MORE of Frazier than Most Guys in this Thread Do...But the Thing is, Holyfield was CONSIDERABLY TALLER (About the Same Height as Ali & Foreman), had a GREAT Chin, would B Right Around the Same WEIGHT as Frazier & Would Conceivably B STRONGER...Not to Mention More MOBILE, More ATHLETIC, a Better COMBINATION Puncher, More SKILLED, etc....

Like Holyfield, Joe Frazier WAS NOT a "Big" Heavyweight, Per Se...If U Could Manage to PUSH Frazier Back &/or OFFSET his Left Hook (to SOME Degree), MORE than Half of the Battle was ALREADY Won...Holyfield was QUITE Capable of Mid-Fight Adjustments (The ENTIRETY of Tyson-Holyfield I was a Testament to Evander's Ability to ADJUST & Be SMART, yet Aggressive)...He Could Certainly MINIMIZE the Number of Left Hooks he Ate from Frazier...Even as he Whipped Tyson's Ass, Holy was Cognizant of GRABBING Mike's Arms....Not to Mention the "Cagey" Use of the Headbutts...

It's Funny, Guys like Doub Portray Human SPONGES like Margarita as "Subtle Scientists", but Evander Holyfield Actually WAS one...Obviously, Foreman was the Absolute WORST Matchup for Frazier, Stylistically...But REED Thinks Holyfield just Might MATCHUP w/Frazier Better than Even Ali Did....


REED:34:

KaukipRrr
04-12-2012, 08:55 AM
Yeah, Marciano has too many hail-mary moments in his career for my liking, hard to see him getting the lucky breaks often enough in a round robin to win it.

I liken Frazier to a bigger version of Marciano with a few differences, I actually think Marciano did a few things better- he may have been a bit harder to hit, his crouch might top Joe's head-movement thing, and he might have been a bit more two-fisted. Not enough to beat Joe two times out of two though.

We will rar rar rar RAR RAR RAR RAR! RAR!! RAR!!! RAAAAAAAAAAAAR!!!!

Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay!!! *clap* *clap* *clap* *clap* *clap* *clap*

Irish for prez yo :crafty: