overrated greats

Discussion in 'General Boxing Discussion' started by Double L, Jun 6, 2014.

  1. Double L

    Double L Book Reader

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    As often as we may underrate all time greats (see other thread), we also over rate fighters, even when the consensus is they were great.

    So as with the other thread, the fighters we're talking about here are all time greats.

    But mind you, an all time great can still be overrated.

    I contend for example that Ali is overrated (even while recognizing that he was great).

    I think Aaron Pryor gets overrated as well (though I consider him to have been great).

    Who else? Which great fighters have had their achievements soured with hyperbole and hero worship?
     
  2. Neil

    Neil ABJECT COWARD

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    Couldn't u simply have bumped up your thread on hippity hop fighters?
     
  3. Xplosive

    Xplosive X-MOD Bad Motherfucker

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    Floyd & Pac are the first two that come to mind. Both all time great fighters, whom the mainstream thinks of as the two greatest of all time because they know fuck all about boxing.
     
  4. cdogg187

    cdogg187 GLADYS

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    Tony Zale and Rocky Graziano

    While the three fights between these two are justifiably the stuff of legend, the fact is that one was a Middleweight champ who fought everybody BUT the world's best middleweights (until Cerdan, who smashed him) and the other was a middleweight who built his record on Welterweights

    Graziano had a killer right hand and a lot of courage but he was not skilled, he didn't have a good chin and he has about zero wins over anyone good at 160, save 1-for-3 off of Zale

    Zale was not even close to being the best Middleweight of his era, even during his whole time as champ... He wanted no part of Jake LaMotta, Holman Williams, Silent Hairston and half a dozen other guys that were far better than anyone he fought against

    While he was defending against lesser contenders, Graziano was going life and death with Welterweights

    Joey Maxim is today regarded correctly as a good light heavyweight boxer, well-schooled, good jab, etc, who was fortunate enough to be the right color and have the right management to be "The Light Heavyweight Champion" of an era where numerous fighters (Charles, Moore, Marshall, Bivins, maybe even others) would have been favorites to beat him but could easily be frozen out for a long time... Nobody considers him a legend or great... He is considered what he was, a good fighter in a great era... For some reason, Zale has escaped this historical correcting despite being the early 40s middleweight equivalent. I'd have to assume the reason is Graziano. The fights are such a part of the sport's lore that its participants became elevated right along with it.
     
  5. cdogg187

    cdogg187 GLADYS

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    Bert Sugar included Rocky Graziano in his top 50 all-time

    Tells you all you need to know
     
  6. Slice N Dice

    Slice N Dice Big stiff idiot

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    Maxim borders on great IMO. Good solid champ with a couple of great wins over Robinson (yeah, yeah, we all know the circumstances) and Patterson
     
  7. cdogg187

    cdogg187 GLADYS

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    Contemporary accounts of the Patterson fight (an 8 rounder with a wet-behind-the-ears Floyd) vary but there seemed to be the appearance of a gift in Maxim's favor

    Furthermore, he did nothing but get the shit kicked out of him by Robinson and couldn't even take advantage when Robinson was practically having heat stroke the last few rounds... He won by essentially having more weight to sweat off and spending most of the fight on the defensive... I can't give a guy much credit for that... Frankly, Maxim got lucky
     
  8. Dog Jones

    Dog Jones WBC Silver Diamond Emeritus Champ

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    "I quit in the same fashion Sugar Ray Robinson did"

    - LeBron James after game 1 of the 2014 NBA Finals
     
  9. Erratic

    Erratic "Twinkle Toes" McJack

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    And he had Michael Spinks outside of his top 100.
     
  10. Erratic

    Erratic "Twinkle Toes" McJack

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    It's a little difficult to gauge "overrated" and "underrated" since it depends on whom is doing the rating. I guess you have to go in general.

    In general, I do agree with Aaron Pryor being overrated. The myths about him being ducked by Leonard and Duran annoy me. Which is why I put the Lennox Blackmoore fight on my YT channel when Pryor admits to turning down half a million to face Leonard (which was far more than Leonard ended up paying whom he ended up fighting at the time, Kalule and Bonds, and 10 times more than the $50k Pryor made against Cervantes). Naturally, someone comments "Leonard was scared of Pryor!!".

    When The Ring had their Top 80 Fighters of the last 80 Years (1922-2002), they had Pryor #35. Ahead of Michael Spinks (41), Roy Jones (44), Thomas Hearns (67), Wilfred Benitez (68). Yes, they had Pryor more than THIRTY spots ahead of Tommy Hearns.

    I agree with X in terms of the general public greatly overrating Manny and Floyd. Then again, you have idiots on the other side saying "Floyd is nothing, he's a runner, Manny is only good because he cheated, etc...".

    Mike Tyson gets overrated by the general public, but a lot of people underrate him as well.

    "If you weren't scared of Tyson, you would beat him". Yes, that is all it took. I mean it didn't take a beautifully fought bout by Buster Douglas (a talented but lazy guy), another well-fought, smart bout by Evander Holyfield (an ATG), and numerous jabs, right crosses, and uppercuts from a huge puncher in Lennox Lewis (an ATG) to beat Tyson.

    All you had to do was stand up to him and not show fear.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2014
  11. mikE

    mikE "Twinkle Toes" McJack

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    Ali and Duran, especially Duran.
     
  12. REEDsART

    REEDsART MATCHMAKER

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    The FACT is, Aaron Pryor was a HIGH Risk, LOW Reward Option for Leonard & Duran...

    As Faaaaaaaar Back as the Ammy's, Leonard JUMPED Weight Classes to Avoid Competing in the Same Division as Pryor...They had a History of Dropping EACH OTHER in Sparring, Even as Pros...Pryor Made MORE than a Million Dollars for the Arguello Fight, so 500K for Ray Leonard is Definitely LOW...

    Duran Moved from 135 to 147, Even as Pryor Competed @ '35 and '40...

    REED Would Stop Short of Saying Leonard & Duran were "Scared" of Pryor, but Not Facing Him was a BUSINESS Decision...Pryor's in the Grouping of Guys like Mike McCallum, Winky Wright, Vernon Forrest & Others who were BLATANLY Shunned & Frozen Out by their More Famous Contemporaries...

    Only Pryor was BETTER than McCallum, Wright, Forrest, in REED's Opinion...





    REED:hammert:
     
  13. Neil

    Neil ABJECT COWARD

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    mcCallum > pryor
     
  14. Xplosive

    Xplosive X-MOD Bad Motherfucker

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    The Hawk was a bad ass, but having said that, I'm pretty confident both Leonard and Duran would have knocked him out.

    Leonard was too big, too fast, too powerful, with too many tools for Pryor.

    And Duran is the one guy who Pryor's whirlwind style is NOT a winning formula against.

    Still, Aaron Pryor was an amazing fighter, and if he were around today, "Money" would be avoiding him like the plague.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2014
  15. Muzse

    Muzse "Twinkle Toes" McJack

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    Having Ali on the overrated list disqualifies Double from his own thread.

    Pick a top heavyweight in the 1970's and Ali beat pretty much each one with the exception of Larry Holmes (Holmes won his title from Norton in 1978 the year Ali retired the first time).

    If there every was a guy who didn't "duck and dodge" anyone it was Ali.

    Neither Floyd nor Manny are all-time greats in my book. Great fighters, yes. All-time no. There are plenty guys I couldn't see them beating from 130 to 140 let alone 147 and 154.

    Put Floyd and Manny in with the 2000 version of Oscar and Shane and I think both leave with L's on their records. Same goes for those guys at 135.
     
  16. Muzse

    Muzse "Twinkle Toes" McJack

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  17. Muzse

    Muzse "Twinkle Toes" McJack

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    Same can be said about the Gatti-Ward fights.
     
  18. Xplosive

    Xplosive X-MOD Bad Motherfucker

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    Floyd and Manny are BOTH overrated if you ask me. "However", they ARE all time greats, and both could compete in any era.

    But mainstream fans overrate them to an absurd level, simply because they don't know shit of any previous greats.
     

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