Don´t think I´ve seen this one done specifically before, so... Cassius Clay was 29-0 (21) and his last five fights were: * KO7 Zora Foley * Pts15 Ernie Terrell * TKO3 Cleveland Williams * TKO12 Karl Mildenburger * KO3 Brian London Mike Tyson was 32-0 (28) and previous five victories: * TKO7 Tyrell Biggs * Pts12 Tony Tucker * TKO6 Pinklon Thomas * Pts12 James ´Bonecrusher´ Smith * KO2 Trevor Berbick Clay: 210lb - 6´3” - 78” Tyson : 215lb - 5´10” - 71” 12 rounds. Who wins and Why?
Ali defense at that point pretty much exclusively consisted on foot movement and pulling his head back. Against a guy as fast on his feet as tyson, and with so much power, this spell trouble. Ali has a chance, but my money would be on tyson
Ali ceased being "Cassius Clay" After the first Liston fight. That aside...I'd pick Ali. Tyson would have been very dangerous indeed but I think Ali outlasts him and stops him over 15 and gets a close decision over 12.
Ali is GREATER in terms of achievements than Tyson, but I've felt for some time that he did have flaws that a young Mike could capitalize on.
The two BEST heavyweights of all time as far as I'm concerned. Sly is correct, he was Ali by 67, not Clay. And Ali wins. Mike gives him a lot of problems for awhile, but Ali was tough enough - both physically and mentally, to handle the immense Tyson storm. He takes Mike into deep waters and drowns him. Ali TKO 12.
H highly unlikely though that Tyson could have soaked up the same punishment that Frazier had received up to that point to be in a position to hurt Ali that late in the fight. Tyson had a better chin than Frazier but Frazier could handle sustained punishment better than Tyson.
Frazier also had better stamina than Tyson. One of the VERY FEW things Frazier had over Tyson. For what it's worth.... Mike doesn't think he'd beat Ali. He says he'd lose without hesitation. Does he say that purely out of respect? Perhaps, but I think he truly doesn't believe he had the tools to beat Ali.
Why would Tyson think this? At the time, Clay was just a champion with fast hands and fast mouth: it would be 7 more years before he developed a mythical aura around him. On the flip-side, Clay watching tapes of Tyson from 1987 would definately get his attention - for one thing, he had trouble hitting down and the fast bob-and-weave style would pose him problems as with Ken Norton´s cross-armed ´crab´ style.
It's always been a weird one for me, this match-up. Obviously it is THE dream fight to end all dream fights, but I always thought if one guy was to win it would be in a dominant fashion. Ali would have to do it the long way round and he'd win comfortably because he'd HAVE to do it. Tyson needs to take Ali out quickly and emphatically which he is more than capable of doing.
I already stated that Mike would give him problems. The biggest Mike attribute that trouble Ali is of course... his speed. Not just the speed of hand, but his footspeed and great ability to Actually he said he would beat Louis. But he refuses to ever say he could beat Ali. Obviously, it has no real bearing... but I'd still pick Ali.
In terms of physical capabilities Tyson is more than a match for Ali but Tyson's mental state was fragile when things weren't going his way and that's why I have to go with Ali
Hold on - Im talking about 1987 Mike Tyson. His mental fragilities werent even an issue then and he had no distractions out of the ring which undoubtedly magnified those. He always found a way to work out when a boxer posed him with something he hadnt encountered before: Biggs´s jab and movement, Tucker´s initial size and aggression, Green´s fast hands, Smith´s clinching tactics, etc
Highly unlikely that Ali would last that late in the fight with Tyson if he was getting his ass thoroughly kicked like against Frazier.
One thing I will say that I'm doubtful about the 70s Ali beating the 88 Tyson. Especially the mid 70s Ali. He simply couldn't utilize the rope-a-dope strategy with Mike the same way he did with Foreman. Mike was an entirely different beast than Foreman in terms of speed and accuracy... the rope-a-dope is suicide with Tyson. However, there's a huge difference between the 66-67 Ali and the mid 70s Ali, just as there's a huge difference between the 80s Tyson and the 90s Tyson. I'd still favor Ali, prime-for-prime, but 88 Tyson certainly has the best chance of beating prime Ali than any other heavyweight in history.
It's the opposite for me. I think, older, more clever Ali has a much better chance. Young Ali who fought with his hands down and his chin in the air, would have hell trying to deal with a guy who was as fast as him
Older Ali was taking a lot of punishment in the Thrilla and even against Foreman was countering off the ropes because he no longer had the footspeed to dance away from Foreman. That strategy was effective against Foreman, but it would backfire against Tyson. It would take the Cleveland Williams version of Ali to beat Tyson.... not the Foreman Ali.
There's also quite a difference between the Ali of 1974 and the Ali of '71 to 72. I think early 70s Ali still beats Tyson. He'd get hit more...but his chin was concrete and his will indomitable. Tyson would get discouraged.
Ali had a great chin. An absolutely great chin. Even that shot Joe hit him with in their first fight put him on his backside for about three seconds. Yes, Cooper lit him up but he was back in a minute and near killed 'Enry immediately after. Mike was supremely fast and would definitely land something big but I'm not convinced it would be enough. Big punchers weren't really his achilles heel. I think I pick prime Ali to outlast Mike, but without a lot of confidence. Young Tyson was a phenom. MTF
True, but those guys went to the head until Frazier specifically went to the body in Manilla in ´75 - and that was an almost-shot Frazier. Tyson often went body > head...and was fast with it. I honestly think this is a case of New beats Old in a ´Fuck-I´ve-Not-Seen-This-Before´ scenario that happens in almost every sport....
