Prime Tyson beats prime Ali. Years ago, I NEVER would have said that. I would have picked Ali 6 days a week and twice on Sunday. Nowadays, yes, I still make Ali the favorite... but if anybody had the chance beat the 64-67 Ali... it would be the 87-88 Tyson. I feel like the pulling straight back shit that Ali got away with against Liston and Williams would have spelled trouble for him with Mike's handspeed and timing. Thoughts?
I think it's pretty nutty ... I think Ali would have him wound up something awful, totally fuck with his head
Completely agreed. Ali d was based on footwork and reflexes. It would spell trouble against a guy as fast of feet and hands as Tyson
I do agree, as much as I hate to admit it Also, I would give Lennox a very good chance of beating Ali, for different reasons of course. The fact is, Ali's best performances are against relatively slow-moving guys (Foreman, Liston, Williams). If the opponent could somewhat keep up with him, he had more trouble. Another fact is, even the prime Ali did drop rounds against the likes of Chuvalo. So the image of Ali dominating every second against everyone is wrong, that was prime Pernell Whitaker. And, to once again slip size into it, Ali was usually bigger and physically stronger than his opponents (not the bigger puncher) and he benefitted from it. Tyson matches all these, as does Lennox
I don't think Lewis would have beaten Ali. I think Lewis drops a decision in a fight where he has his moments, but Ali is in control for most the fight. It'd be a boring fight. I think prime Holmes beats Lewis also, but that's definitely closer.
Lewis had the style to have beaten both Holmes and Ali, but I think he loses to both by decision based on punch output. On paper, Tyson has the speed and power to have beaten a prime Ali, and I'm the biggest fan of Tyson..probably bigger than even Xplosive (when Douglas beat him I couldn't talk to anyone about boxing for two weeks)....but if Tyson couldn't discourage or badly hurt an opponent he lost heart. Ali had a chin of iron and a will of even stronger stuff and he'd cause Mike to lose heart. When I was younger and was watching an undefeated Tyson, I thought an Ali-Tyson fight would be close to 50-50, with Ali at perhaps a slight edge, but now I'd make Ali a clear favourite. In fact I'd pick the Ali of 70-74 to beat a prime Tyson also, due to intangibles.
It's the ultimate mythical match-up for a reason... Weird thing is...the way I've always seen it, is that if one guy is to win, they win comfortably. If Tyson wins, he gets to Ali quick and takes him out early or gives him a hellacious beating and stops him midway. If Ali wins he dances and frustrates the shit out of Tyson and stops him late or wins a wide decision. One of those fights where one guy can't afford the other guy to take control at all.
I agree, I don't think it's far fetched at all to suggest Lewis could have beaten Ali, it's a fight I've always had trouble picturing in my head though for some reason. I do agree with X though that Holmes is an absolute nightmare for Lewis. People say Lewis' chin was his weakness, it wasn't. His chin was alright. He struggled against guys who could jab with him, it's the reason Klitschko, Mercer, Bruno and the like gave him so much trouble.
I don't think a young undefeated Tyson would be as susceptible to a fighter getting in his head. I think it's a very tough fight for Ali for a lot of reasons. The main one being Tyson's hand speed. Ali's never seen anyone who can punch as FAST as Tyson can. That would take a while for Ali to get accustomed to. And his tendency to pull straight back from the left hook provides an inviting target for Mike. In a 15 rounder, I lean towards Ali via competitive but deserved decision, probably having to come off the floor to secure the win. But if he's ever as hurt as he was against Cooper and Frazier against Tyson, I could see him getting stopped as well. If they fought 10 times, I'd say Ali takes 6 and Mike takes 4 of them.
BTW, it was re-watching the Biggs fight on Friday night that inspired me to open this thread. And no, I'm not saying that Biggs could hold Ali's jock... but it's remarkable how quickly Mike was able to close gaps, and how well he cut off the ring. Ultimtately, I'd pick 64-67 Ali in this matchup, my only point is... 87-88 Mike would be a more live dog than any other heavy.
I think the narrative that Mike was "mentally weak" has been overstated. His confidence after the Douglas loss was never the same, but on the night he beat Spinks I truly believe he felt inside that he was unbeatable, and it would NOT be easy for Ali to take that belief away... not as easy as some think.
Nah, I don't think Ali's talk alone shatters the pre-Douglas Tyson's confidence. Before Douglas whupped him, Mike believed he was a God for Christ sake. It'd take Ali's fists to shatter Tyson's confidence.
Agreed. It would have entertaining moments but overall as a fight I don't think it would be particularly good. I don't see it as close back and forth type of affair. A rematch would probably been even more of a dud, especially if Ali wins the first.
What you say is true, but that seems to be the case with Holmes, too. His jab was superb, but he had tough fights against the guys who could somewhat match him. Williams, Witherspoon, Weaver etc all bothered him with the jab
Never got the Tyson is weak mentally narrative. Sure he was a bit of a front runner (pretty much a given considering his style) but, save from Holy II, he alway's showed tremendous heart until his last 2 fights.
He was an unstable child-man, really This isn't about whether he'd get up from a knockdown ... it's how he would deal with the ceaseless psychological violence he'd have to endure from Ali in the build up to the fight... psychology matters in boxing, I think Ali understood that better than any fighter ever ... how many fighters are better angry? Precious few ... Joe Frazier, Marco Antonio Barrera... most lose crucial concentration ... You guys surely must be able to imagine how badly Ali would wind up a guy like Tyson with his voice, his physical appearance, etc? That stuff matters Ali was unique and he's got two real life scalps that support the argument for him here... both Liston and Foreman were supposed to kill him and loads of good, logical arguments were raised to explain how and why they would do so... instead they succumbed to whatever magical combination of Ali the physical fighter and Ali the schoolyard heckler
I think that the importance of the psychological aspect in these fights are overstated. Did Ali bothered them. Sure. Did it had a huge impact on the fight, I don't really think so. Even if Ali makes Tyson really angry, I'm not sure it is in his advantage
Agreed. Bullies are used to people being terrified of them. Ali not only trash talked the beasts but played around in the ring like it was easy making them additionally frustrated.
Definitely... I think because it's been described and celebrated so much, the fellows here are sort of engaged in an unconscious backlash against it ... but it's true, Ali's ability to convince himself of things and get into the heads of opponents was a big part of his success
I definitely agree Ali was a master at mind games, I'm just not so sure Tyson would become undone psychologically, pre fight. I think Ali would have to do it by taking Tyson's best, and delivering his own. I think that's the difference. Ali would likely be able to take Tyson's bombs, even if he suffers a knockdown or is badly hurt at any point in the fight. Ali surviving Tyson's onslaught and making his adjustments would be what makes him the winner, more often than not.
I know Liston and Foreman were scary bastards themselves, but neither of them had a propensity to lose it and go mental pre-fight the way Tyson did. I tend to think Ali might even rein it in a bit with the pre-fight shit talking when it comes to Tyson. I know he's The Greatest but prime Tyson was a seriously scary cunt.
The Foreman one is the better example. With Liston it is still a very good example but some small question has to be raised about how old Liston really was at the time. That's the only caveat.
I think Ali was just so vastly better rounded in so many regards, upstairs and downstairs, that the question of Mike folding or succumbing to some of Ali's baloney that he goes into a shell, complains to the referee, etc etc and just gets out of his groove often enough to lose enough of rounds. Mike had a solid solid chin but not in the psychological sense. Ali never, ever felt sorry for himself in the ring. Mike did.
