If Naseem Hamed had been trained to use a traditional style, ...?

Discussion in 'General Boxing Discussion' started by r o o s t e r, Nov 20, 2017.

  1. r o o s t e r

    r o o s t e r "Twinkle Toes" McJack

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    prince naseem hamed had:
    (1) huge natural gifts - power & reflexes;
    (2) unorthodox boxing training in the Ingle gym, in the style of Herol Bomber Graham - hands down at the side, dodge punches by moving the head back;
    (3) wins over some good fighters - some of them dominating wins - followed by a loss to a top-level fighter which sapped all his will for the sport and caused him to retire.

    if (2) had been different, would (3) have been different? even if naz had been trained in a different gym, would his personality and set of natural gifts still have made him a relatively unorthodox fighter? would he still probably have been low on heart, & given up the first time he was beaten?
     
  2. Phoenix

    Phoenix Scrub

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    His athleticism was on par with prime floyd and rjj
     
  3. Destruction and Mayhem

    Destruction and Mayhem PHASE ----3

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    If Hamed has been trained to use a more traditional style he’d have achieved less most likely. His awkwardness and innovation had a lot to do with him winning.

    If Roy Jones fought like Joe Louis he may not have beaten either Hopkins or Toney
     
  4. r o o s t e r

    r o o s t e r "Twinkle Toes" McJack

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    thing is, naz went through an established gym which was proactively training all its fighters to fight that way - as naz himself said, at that gym, everyone was taught to fight like herol bomber graham.

    with roy, his skills were so unearthly, most gyms he'd have gone to, the coach probably would have let roy fight how he wanted, because it was working for him. did his dad or alton merkerson teach roy a special style that helped him beat toney and hopkins? doesn't seem like it - it was the style that developed because of roy's special skills.

    there's part of that with naz, with his style being influenced by his natural skills; but he just wouldn't have fought the herol bomber graham style if he hadn't have happened to live opposite and go to brendan ingle's gym. if his dad had moved to manchester or london rather than sheffield, and naz had gone to a gym that usually taught a more traditional style, maybe naz would still have evolved a fairly unusual variation on that style, like roy did - but it wouldn't have been the herol bomber graham hands-down-by-the-side chin-up-in-the-air style.

    so the question is, did the ingle/graham-style training overall benefit or hinder naz's career, considering his supreme natural skills?
     
  5. whiskey

    whiskey Czarcasm

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    It's just about unorthodoxy but angles. If Naz fought in a more traditional style his power wouldn't have been as effective as his punches would be easier to see coming.
     
  6. Jesus of montreal

    Jesus of montreal WBC Silver Diamond Emeritus Champ

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    I think Hamed talent is vastly overrated, especially his speed.

    I think that his style worked perfectly with his natural abilities. Don't thik he would have been more effective fighting in a more traditional manner
     
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  7. Jeffy

    Jeffy Undisputed Champion

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    Gotta agree with this. His awkwardness is what made him so effective.
     
  8. mexican wedding shirt

    mexican wedding shirt The Greatest of Are Times

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    This exactly. His weird style is what gave him success, it's the sort of style which dominates scrubs but gets exposed at the highest level - which is exactly what happened.
     
  9. mexican wedding shirt

    mexican wedding shirt The Greatest of Are Times

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    Exactly this again. I've always found it utterly mindboggling how people go on about Hamed's talent. Broner too, but less so.

    A perfect example is the first reply in this thread. Talent on par with Floyd and RJJ? lololololol. WTF. It's not even close.

    I agree with you too about the speed, speed especially. Hamed's raw speed was nothing special, it was his ability to throw power shots from weird angles and positions that caught people off guard. His footspeed was also nothing special. Where is all this athleticism? All I see is an awkward fighter with some pop, that's it. An amazing athlete he was not. Fuck, even Khan is a better athlete, at least he has much faster hands and better workrate.

    An amazing athlete is prime RJJ or Pacquiao, or even Floyd actually who may not have quite had the freakish speed and agility of Pacquiao or Roy, but his all round athleticism was top tier, taking into account speed, power, agility, and stamina.
     
  10. Destruction and Mayhem

    Destruction and Mayhem PHASE ----3

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    You are both correct and incorrect. Obviously Hamed didn't have Mayweather or Roy Jones talent. But, the little motherfucker certainly had speed. He has speed of reflexes, movement and one shot hand speed.
     
  11. mikE

    mikE "Twinkle Toes" McJack

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    Hamed fought in a traditional style at times and was very effective.

    Hamed was extremely talented and certainly in the range of Pacquiao, Mosley, Mayweather, and Jones. I think Hamed's biggest flaw was his own perceived sense of invulnerability. It's easy enough to say this in retrospect, but a truly great fighter is not going to fall apart after one tough loss to a guy who was dirty as hell. I wish Hamed had sought and won a rematch because he was good for the sport, probably the best watch of his contemporaries or behind Tyson if you count him as a contemporary.
     
  12. mexican wedding shirt

    mexican wedding shirt The Greatest of Are Times

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    He had good reflexes and upper body movement, but raw hand and footspeed? Nah, nothing special at all. The actual velocity of his punches was nothing exceptional for a world class featherweight.
     
  13. Slice N Dice

    Slice N Dice Big stiff idiot

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    Hamed was definitely gifted athletically, although I agree that whilst his handspeed was good, around the mid-90s especially, it was never close to Pacquiao or Roy level.
     
  14. cdogg187

    cdogg187 GLADYS

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    It's pretty much impossible to divorce a fighter like this from such a peculiar style and pontificate about what ifs

    As far as his physical gifts are concerned, Hamed was clearly blessed with two attributes in abundance - quickness and overwhelming power ... anybody claiming otherwise is just trying to be clever
     
  15. mexican wedding shirt

    mexican wedding shirt The Greatest of Are Times

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    Exactly, I've said this before, many times. His speed and power are vastly overrated. He was great at hitting scrubs with big punches from weird angles and positions that they simply didn't see coming.

    And of course his non traditional style was mainly to thank for that.
     
  16. cdogg187

    cdogg187 GLADYS

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    Clearly CLEARLY one of the hardest hitters ever at 126

    I hated the guy too but he was a murderous hitter

    Horrible boxer and complete idiot but ludicrous power
     
  17. Destruction and Mayhem

    Destruction and Mayhem PHASE ----3

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    forget featherweight, I think he was one of the hardest hitters ever, p4p. When he caught guys clean, they went....and with either hand.
     
  18. Jesus of montreal

    Jesus of montreal WBC Silver Diamond Emeritus Champ

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    He had great power, but I wouldn't go nearly as far as saying it was among the best ever p4p. Against the 3 guys with great chin he faced, his power seemed non-existent
     
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  19. r o o s t e r

    r o o s t e r "Twinkle Toes" McJack

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    guess there's a question of how much his power and his style are connected. if he had trained and punched in a traditional style, would he still have been a big hitter? or did his power mostly come from that pendulum movement, arcing his whole body into punches? - certainly the style contributed to the power, but how much?



    god knows how to embed a YouTube video to begin at a particular time on this board. 6:33 of this video -
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2017
  20. r o o s t e r

    r o o s t e r "Twinkle Toes" McJack

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    suggests it was the style that generated most of his power. those huge arcing punches which he had time to load up on when fighting lesser fighters, he just didn't get chance to do them against the better fighters
     
  21. r o o s t e r

    r o o s t e r "Twinkle Toes" McJack

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    can him do rope flip into the ring?!
     
  22. whiskey

    whiskey Czarcasm

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    It's the old cliché that it's the punch you don't see coming that hurts you. It's a simplification but there's truth in it. More importantly it's easier to prepare for someone who does things "correctly".
     
  23. r o o s t e r

    r o o s t e r "Twinkle Toes" McJack

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    ok, but just watch how the man throws this power punches - he swings his whole body into it. noone else punches like that, and it's not surprising that it's more powerful when it lands. probably also fucked up his hands; couldn't imagine punching like that into a heavy bag.
     
  24. whiskey

    whiskey Czarcasm

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    Interesting theory.
     
  25. Double L

    Double L Book Reader

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    What is the one, "one tough loss to a guy who was dirty as hell?" You're caing barrera, "dirty as hell?" How so?
     
  26. Rich ´Money´ Mustard

    Rich ´Money´ Mustard DIE!

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    His speed was servicable, power was legit, reflexes legit, defence non-existant, footwork sloppy...

    Hamed got as far as he did thus:
    * KOing tomato cans or guys on-the-slide
    * SKY Sports marketing
    * Steve Bunce & Claude Abrahams making out he was a legend to be
    * add flashy ring-entrances, OTT shorts and a big mouth to woo the thickos' and you've got the big ticket in boxing

    Not for nothing did he quit in the 18-months following the Barrera loss...I mean who in sports on such a massive scale let alone boxing does that in their prime?

    Con-artist, shady family.
     
  27. Erratic

    Erratic "Twinkle Toes" McJack

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    Well Barrera could be pretty dirty (The Pacquiao fights) and rough. Hamed was dirty too (body slamming Soto) and it came back to him this time. Happens quite a bit when dirty fighters get their karma.

    Slamming Hamed’s face into the ringpost was dirty and unnecessary, but entertaining as hell.
     
  28. Double L

    Double L Book Reader

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    You make it sound like MAB beat Hamed by being dirty.
     
  29. Erratic

    Erratic "Twinkle Toes" McJack

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    Nah, that was just a little extra bonus to Barrera just outboxing him.
     
  30. Destruction and Mayhem

    Destruction and Mayhem PHASE ----3

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    I loved it when Barrera slammed his head into the ring post. I can watch that over and over again.
     

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