Is it possible...

...for a fighter to achieve all-time great status if he doesn't have anybody good to fight? And if he also doesn't have the option to move up or down a division?

My best example of this would be Vitali, I rate the guy highly but others don't, and I understand that, but I mean, what could he have done differently with the opposition he had available at the time? Now I know people are going to bring up the Lewis fight, fair enough, but let's say for example the only great fighter in Joe Frazier's era is George Foreman, a guy he is stylistically always going to lose against, I bet you he doesn't get anywhere near the level people rate him at right now. So what is a fighter meant to do to reach this status, in your eyes, if he doesn't have the opposition available to him during his prime?

 

Yeah it's a good question.

Frazier has that one win over Ali, and that's it really over the marquee fighters of his age.Never fought Norton, lost 4 out of 5 to Ali and Foreman.

What makes him great is how he did fight everyone, fought them hard, and made them work.

Sal Sanchez the same. He has three big wins and one of them was over a guy that people only decided was good after-the-fact.

 

I definitely think that a great fighter needs someone who can bring something special out of him to be considered an all timer. Something that perhaps we didn't know he had.

Frazier played a YUUUUGE role in making Ali an icon. The first and 3rd fights being such incredible fights. Even in losing the first fight, Ali showed an incredible will and toughness that made him such an icon. That's why Frazier has to be rated highly.

Vitali fought well in defeat to Lewis but it was clearly an unmotivated, disinterested, out of shape version of Lewis. Had that fight happened in Lewis' prime and Vitali given that same performance, I think he'd be rated higher.

 

Problem with vitaly is that he didn't even came close to clean out the very weak division he was fighting in. Guy pretty much went out of his way to fight the bottom of the barrel of an already putrid division. And the Rahman ducking was just shameful

 

Frazier played only a slight role in Ali being an icon. Ali was an icon BEFORE his forced retirement from the sport. What made Ali huge started with the build up to Liston when he was predicting the outcome of his fights, then the upset of Liston, then the conversion to Islam, then his dominance ( including torturing Partson and Terrell) then his outspoken ways on politics and race and war and then his refusal to join the army and then his forced retirement. All that was before Joe. The Frazier fights added but so too did the Foreman fight.

 

To answer the thread, longevity of utter dominance is enough to prove greatness even if you don't have that classic dance partner.

 

You’re about the only guy that has been talking about that Rahman ducking on this forum. From what I remember Vitali was injured and that’s why he couldn’t fight Rahman. There must be something I’m missing. What is it?

 

Yeah, cause I'm one of the few that actually has a memory. Pretty much everybody was saying it was a duck job at the time. VK postponed the fight 4 times, while fighting some bums in between, and retired claiming an injury when he had his back against the wall. It's very weird cause Rahman didn't seems like he was that big of a threat, but it's clear that VK was afraid to face him, for whatever reason.

 

Yeah, but You Also Say Lennox Lewis "Ducked" John Ruiz...

Hasim Rahman Had his Strengths and Shortcomings Just Like Anybody Else and the Idea of Vitali INTENTIONALLY "Ducking" Him is Hilarious...







REED

 

Heh, I never said that.

And if you think it's hilarious it's because you obviously forgot about the whole thing, cause everyone and their mother was claiming that VK ducked him at the time.

As I said, guy postponed the fight 4 times, and retired instead of finally facing Rahmam. It doesn't exactly take sherlock Holmes to realise it was a duck job. And let's not forget that Rahman was coming off a very impressive victory against Meehan at the time

 

Had Vitali Just Thrown Courtesy Jabs for the Last Few Rounds of the Byrd Fight, and Gotten a RE w/Lennox, There'd Be NATHAN to Complain About...

And Though they Never Fought, is there ANYBODY Who Thinks he DOESN'T Beat Wlad, Head to Head???...



REED

 

I'd pick Vitaly, but it's far from a foregone conclusion.

 

You Said WORDS to that Effect, For Sure...You and Your Brother Had this WEIRD Infatuation w/Ruiz and REED Recalls One or Both of Ya'll Criticizing Lennox for Never Facing Him...

Vitali was INJURY PRONE, Likely Due to Cycling On and Off PED's...He Didn't Face Rahman Because of HEALTH, Not Because he was Afraid...






REED

 

yopu're tripping man. I never ever said LL ducked Ruiz. The only thing vaguely comparable is that I said that Wlad didn't cleaned out the division cause he never faced 2 of the most dominant champs of his era (Ruiz and Valuev). But even then, even with all the hatred I have for the pussyficator, I never accused him of ducking them.

I know it's hard to admit for his fans, but it's clear that VK was afraid of Rahamn, who was a cerdible threat at the time. Makes me think of all the JC fans who conveniently forgot that he postponed his fights against Johnson a thousand times.

 

A boxer's resume will always play a huge part in their all time status. Without other great fighters available (or even very good ones) they will be punished. No it's not quite fair, but seeing how they do against other greats has always played a large part in how they are evaluated and ranked historically.

If an era is week the best you can ask for is the willingness of a fighter to seek out the best available and also do it consistently.

 

What about Larry Holmes? There was the beating of a corpse of Ali and a razor-thin win over Norton, yet nobody would deny Larry's greatness.

Or going further back, Jack Dempsey beat Firpo but not many others, it was his dominance and style of winning that made him great.

So judging by these examples a fighter doesn't always need to beat greats to become a great himself

 

I

I'm not sure I would actually call it ducking but the situation was definitely suspect. A doctor even cleared Vitaly to fight yet he still pulled out. Worst part was him scheduling a fight with someone else (Mccline? ) in between the postponements.

 

As usual, Ugotabe kidding is the voice of reason.

 

Firpo wasn't one of Dempsey's better opponents really ... it's more the drama of Firpo knocking him through the ropes with a Hail Mary that made the fight famous ... outside of that one moment, he was butchered

Holmes is a great example though

 

Louis is an example to an extent also.

Ricardo Lopez?

 

Dempsey didn't have many better opponents though, that's the thing. Some solid big men, Brennan and Gibbons both of whom gave him fits, iced Sharkey with a sucker punch and skirted Wills, yet he is among the biggest legends of the sport

 

Dempsey was only fighting white mens. His standing as a great definitively deserves an axterix

 

This thread brings up another issue though...one that's a point of contention with me...

Fans tend to reward fighters for losses, as long as they avenge them. So if a great fighter loses to some guy he should have beaten easily and then avenges him...suddenly his opponent is elevated to a GREAT FIGHTER on his resume...and that loss and subsequent reversal is more meaningful to them than if he simply beat the guy in the first place as he should have done. If he had just beaten him easily...people would say that the dude was a bum. So dominance is actually viewed upon negatively by Burt Sugaresque fight fans....which is bullshit.

 

Not really, it depends on the quality of the fighter per se. Nobody gives credit (or barely any) to LL for avenging the Rahman and McCall losses, or Norris avenging the Brown loss. But to be honest, showing that you can overcome the morale burden of the loss, and that you're adaptable enough to fight a different fight, is a proof of greatness

 

His legend is deserved for his innovation... stylistically he is one of the most important fighters that ever lived, basically invented fast paced pressure fighting just as Benny Leonard introduced moving around the whole ring while punching in combination... between the two of them you have the foundation for modern boxing ... what they did looks a bit stiff and primitive now (basically looked that way within 15-20 years really) but at the time it was revolutionary and changed the sport permanently

Firpo wasn't as highly regarded a fighter as many of the guys he beat, really, even guys we would think of as ho-hum like a Gunboat Smith or the smaller Carpentier for example ... that's all I'm saying

He did draw the color line with regard to Wills and that is a deserved criticism but after Johnson, the public in America didn't want any black man having a shot at the crown ... nobody got a shot until Louis YEARS LATER and even that took lots of PR and making sure Louis said all the right things, acted "right" so as to please the racist masses ... this was hardly just Jack Dempsey preventing guys like Wills from getting a fair shake

 

The greatest and classic example of this is Aaron Pryor.
Fought a former great 126-135lb fighter in Alexis Arguello at 140lbs when Arguello was clearly on-the-slide in a big fight and gets elevated to 'great' status.

Fightbeat cretins are notorious Pryor nutsack-hangers-on.

 

Agree his comp was limited but he did have win over cervantes in addition to arguello.

 

Indeed.
Antonio Cervantes, aged 35 and five fights from retirement.

Sorry.

 

Pryor was nasty

 

Isn't that an example of the opposite? Without the win (and performance) against Arguello i doubt he would be considered as an ATG.