Popularity and Identity

Discussion in 'General Boxing Discussion' started by Ugotabe Kidding, Oct 9, 2017.

  1. Ugotabe Kidding

    Ugotabe Kidding WBC Silver Diamond Emeritus Champ

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    Ok, imagine this:

    Suppose Julio Cesar Chavez, in the height of his prime and reputation, had been hurt in a fight against Edwin Rosario (or whoever).

    What if Chavez had hopped on his bike and jabbed and ran for the rest of the bout, against his whole identity as a fighter, and won.

    Do you think his reputation and status would have suffered, even though he won?

    What about Mike Tyson in a similar situation?
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2017
  2. mexican wedding shirt

    mexican wedding shirt The Greatest of Are Times

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    The way I see it is it affects their rep more current term than long term. Long term stuff like that is forgotten, and their overall worth is more just based on their entire resumé and their best wins.
     
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  3. Ugotabe Kidding

    Ugotabe Kidding WBC Silver Diamond Emeritus Champ

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    Probably true.

    I just started wondering if guys whose identity is that of an aggressor is 'allowed' to abandon his strategy for victory. If the fighter is known as versatile all the way, it is easier to accept the change.

    Difficult to imagine what would the reaction be now if prime Mike Tyson had turned into a runner. Would it be overlooked in his case too
     
  4. Jesus of montreal

    Jesus of montreal WBC Silver Diamond Emeritus Champ

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    For some the versatility would be seen as an advantage, but for those that build their whole identity upon being the most destructive guys around (a la Tyson), it would be viewed negatively
     
  5. Ugotabe Kidding

    Ugotabe Kidding WBC Silver Diamond Emeritus Champ

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    How negative would the impact be, in your opinion?

    Would it be a stain such as 'No Mas' which is always (unfairly) remembered, or something comparable to a surprising loss (such as Lewis-Rahman I) for example?
     
  6. cdogg187

    cdogg187 GLADYS

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    So much of Chavez's legend was built on his being this indestructible force and the Rosario fight where he just walked through one of the hardest punchers of all time and left the poor bastard looking like he'd been beat up by a whole group of guys was one of the real big building blocks of that legend.

    The scenario you describe would obviously detract from perhaps the defining characteristic of prime Chavez. Would his adaptability therefore become more celebrated? Sure but I don't think it would ever equal the respect level his extreme toughness has earned him in the history of the sport
     
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  7. cdogg187

    cdogg187 GLADYS

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    I don't think it would ever be anywhere near as bad as those... Those were humiliating defeats
     
  8. Ugotabe Kidding

    Ugotabe Kidding WBC Silver Diamond Emeritus Champ

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    This I agree on. The loss of reputation in this case is bigger than the win or the gain of respect because of the adaptability shown.

    In this sense, boxing is unique as a sport, as in some cases identity can outweigh the result.

    Just how big this reputation loss would be is a very interesting question. I would think it could be surprisingly big, but I can't think of an example.

    Believe it or not, I am writing a book about boxing. It is going to be a splendid one
     
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  9. mikE

    mikE "Twinkle Toes" McJack

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    No mas is Duran's defining fight.

    A win is a win and an outlier generally isn't going to have a negative effect on how a guy's career is viewed. Let's say it might. Rematch.

    Not so easy to think of injury examples, but Danny Williams is one. It helped him. Vitali? Hurt him and he needed the Lewis fight and subsequent Lewis retirement to help his stature from the Byrd fight. But, that's because he quit rather than try to peck away at Byrd and win hurt. Tszyu? Same thing. Genaro Hernandez? Same thing. With the ones I'm thinking of, quitting hurts more than winning by stink.

    Froch's legacy was actually enhanced by not engaging with Abraham, but that was strategy, not injury.
     
  10. cdogg187

    cdogg187 GLADYS

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    I think a loss is always going to hurt the guy more than any win unless it's an epic, heroic loss ... Billy Conn was a great boxer but his great loss to Louis is his defining moment
     
  11. whiskey

    whiskey Czarcasm

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    I agree, but that's one of the very few examples in boxing history outside of fights where a guy got screwed by the judges.
     
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  12. REEDsART

    REEDsART MATCHMAKER

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    w/Out Question, Chavez Would NOT Be Held in the Same Regard Amongst his Countrymen...

    Ol' School Mexican Fight Fans PREFER their Heroes Weather Degrees of Adversity and OUTMAN Foes...The YOUNGER Sect Appreciates the JM Marquez, Salvador Sanchez Approach, but even then, They've Got to Bite Down @ SOME Point for Validation...

    Canelo Still Has YET to Channel his Inner Mexican and Convincingly BEAT an Elite Level Fighter, Which is Why There's Still a Degree of RELUCTANCE to Fully Embrace Him, Despite his Obviously Popularity...





    REED:cool:
     
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  13. REEDsART

    REEDsART MATCHMAKER

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    Prime Example of What REED's Talking about is Marco Antonio Barrera...

    Had he Been Born 10 Years Earlier, he Might've Been LESSER Appreciated by Mexican Fans, for Becoming SAFER, More DEFENSIVE Minded, After Being KO'ed by Junior Jones...

    But Even in Altering his Style a Bit, Barrera Showed Some BITE When he Needed To...



    REED:cool:
     
  14. Erratic

    Erratic "Twinkle Toes" McJack

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    I think it just depends on the magnitude of the fight, what happens after that, and whether the guy wins.

    Chavez spent most of the Lockridge fight on the backfoot. I thought he won clearly, and it was relatively early in his career. I don't know how exactly it would have changed things if he had done that in a bigger profile, Mexico vs. PR match. He may have been loved a little less but I'm guessing he still would have a fan favorite. He had all those other fights which he fought more aggressively.

    De La Hoya was already very polarizing with Mexican fans when he fought Tito. If he had gotten the decision, do you think he would have gotten a little less backlash?
     
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