Drunk Thoughts: Agree or Disagree?

I watched Leonard-Duran 2 for the first time in years a few days ago and it was a close fight. Duran may have partied too much but I suspect he always partied a lot before fights. His defensive reflexes were still very sharp, rolling with shots and pulling back at the last moment to avoid the shots. The fact that the fight was close in the 8th makes Duran's quit job MORE disgraceful. "Oh, the clown is not fighting". Then cut off the ring, you're not getting paid 10 million dollars for nothing. One of the most disgraceful quit jobs ever.

Amir Khan is more style than substance at this point, at least on a world class level. He lacks a certain ring comfort and fluidity in the ring. His speed makes people think he's better than he is. His footwork is poor, his defense is poor, he can't fight on the inside, and his combos are sloppy.

As of right now, fuck BOTH Floyd Mayweather and Manny Pacquiao.

Hagler-Hearns is perhaps the greatest display of a fighter switching from his usual style to another one and doing it to perfection.

Everytime I watch Ali-Foreman, I'm reminded of how bad Ali schooled Foreman off the ropes, even before Foreman tired.

Timothy Bradley is a good solid fighter, but slaps too much with his shots, leaves himself too open, and will never reach beyond the "very good" level.

Carl Froch's girl needs to be seen and not heard. I can't stand people who won't shut the fuck up during a fight. She should make herself useful and do porn.

Gus Johnson is much better at basketball and football than the fighting sports.

Felix Trinidad's resume of wins is pretty overrated, although I honestly think he kills most of the welterweights in recent years other than Floyd & Manny. His best win during a 6 year run as a title holder at WW is Oba Carr, for fuck's sake.

 

I like all of them, Erratic.

 

It was an act of destruction, like a sculptor smashing up an otherwise perfectly good piece because he knew he could so better & didn't want people thinking it was all he was capable of. It was childish and egotistical.

Style? He's about as stylish as an unsanded 2 by 4 plank. All athleticism, no skill would be a more apt dichotomy to describe him.

Yup.

Not sure if it's the greatest ever, but it was certainly a great testimony to his versatility. I think almost ALL great fighters can fight in at least 2 of the 3 classic boxing modes (slugging, volume, counter punching) very effectively. That's part of what sets them apart.

Foreman fought awfully, IMO. As dumb a top level performance as you'll ever see. It was like watching somebody shoulder barging a wall until they knocked themselves out.

Disagree, I think he's underrated. He isn't on the Floyd Mayweather level but I think he's among the very best behind that, along with Ward & Martinez. Guy's who can adapt to a guys style and have ring intelligence.

Never noticed.

Dunno who he is.

Yup. Very overrated fighter. He'd certainly beat any of the recent champs outside Floyd or Manny, though. At 154 I think Martinez would have bested him.

 

Leonard-Duran 2 was not even remotely close. Leonard toyed with Duran like a cat does with a mouse. To his credit Duran tried HARD to make it a fight, though,until he got frustrated and quit, "The hell with you, clown!" he must have though.

 

Duran was outclassed and quit for that reason only. I don't think it is disgraceful to be a much lesser man.

Agreed if you define good in the Ramonza manner (which plenty of others do too). I don't care how many things a fighter does wrong as long as he wins fights. Thus, Khan is rated correctly at the top of his division

One of them yes, though Hearn's decision to slug helped it.

Agreed, people have a very wrong picture of this fight. Ali won five out of seven completed rounds.

 

Absurd revisionist bullshit.

Round 1: even. Literally two head punches each, two body punches each. Just Leonard running and running and running around that gigantic empty car park of a ring.

I'd be tempted to give it to Duran since he was the only one wanting to fight, but I'm a big believer in scoring only on punches landed and not on abstract & subjective stuff like 'aggression' or 'making the other guy fight your fight'.

10-10 Even.

Round 2: Leonard. Leonard takes it with those 2 big rights from the ropes, and a couple of scuffing right counters later. Duran landed a couple sickening body shots of his own. Very low in action again.

20-19 Leonard

Round 3: Leonard running and clinching. There were 4 exchanges in the whole thing and Duran seemed to land marginally the better shots, over the piece. Duran.

39-39 Even.

Round 4: A couple of scuffles on the inside, Leonard seems to get the better of them. Duran lands a very good counter right over a long Leonard jab. Duran lands a good hook which sends Leonard back to punctuate a scrappy exchange. Great counter uppercut from Leonard as Duran tries to get inside. Leonard gets the better of an exchange, Duran trips up. Sharp Duran hooker-cut to end the round, Leonard responds with a left against the ropes. Leonard's round, overall.

49-48 Leonard

Round 5: A minute in not a single punch landed. Dunno if anyones booing I've got it muted. 90s in Duran lands a half slipped jab. Leonard tries a big right uppercut scuffs off Duran's shoulder. Duran sprawls Leonard back with a sharp left hood, mainly a balance shot, but the best so far. This is basically the last rounds of DLH-Tito executed with more style. Duran gets inside lands a left to the body I'd be happy to take. Good right from Duran, Leonard pulling back from it no damage done, Leonard scuffs another hard uppercut off Duran's shoulder almost simultaneously. Duran corners Leonard, they exchange pity pat body shots and misses. Duran lands with another right that Leonard fades from. I'll give it to Duran, marginally.

58-58, Even.

Round 6: Leonard pulling his De la Chicken with style moves. Duran beginning to looked wearisome & bored. Duran lands a left against the ropes, Leonard clinches. Great jab from leonard, probably the first really flush, square head shot by either man. Leonard literally running again. Im a big Leonard fan but I'd forgot how egregious this was - if Floyd ever fought this way for even half a round he'd never live it down. Leonard lands a very good hook with about 45s left, Duran thumps him back to the body. Whole lot of nothing. Duran lands a jab, Leonard trips up running away from it. Leonard's round on the basis of two solid shots.

68-67 Leonard.

Round 7:
More of Leonard sprinting round the ring to open. 90s in literally nothing worth reporting landed again. A half parried Leonard jab to the body, a glancing Duran counter right uppercut a scrappy, smothered exchange. Leonard starting to clown now, still not landing shit, just backing off, backing off, backing off. Urgh, this is awful. Duran lunges, lands a body shot, Leonard lands an excellent counter hook, does a shuffle to celebrate. Another exchange on the ropes, Leonard marginally gets the better of it, lands a very good jab 5s later. Great body shot by Ray to close the round. Definitely Leonard's best round. Still pitiably little happening beside the running & now the clowning.

68-66 Leonard

Round 8:
More of the same. Duran looking totally frustrated at Leonard's antics, clearly wants to actually have a fight/boxing match rather than have to jog after one continuously. This is the high class stripper cock teasing of male-male interaction. His body language starts to slump in disgust, still no proper punches by either man after 60s. Duran lands a right to the body as Leonard backs up. Leonard touches with a jab that Duran pulls from. Duran lands with a right on the ropes, Leonard defends well. Duran lands two decent left hooks, they exchange jabs. Good counter jab by Leonard from the ropes. Duran half lands a couple rights as Leonard backs up, hard right counter from ray, Duran responds with his own that Leonard half slips, bull rush to the ropes, Leonard spins off. Duran says No Mas.

Frankly Duran was probably edging the round.... in the context of the fight I can see why he quit, though the exact timing of it is enigmatic.

But Duran quits.

That said, one man ran from a fight that night and it wasn't Roberto. And anybody who says anybody 'toyed' with the other doesn't know boxing from their elbow scrag.

 

Fucking idiocy.

 

In denial

 

I retract my initial analysis of why Duran quit. I don't think he was badly undertrained or weight drained, he just wanted to fight and Ray wouldn't. I mean you have to score rounds one way or another and Ray was a couple up because he managed to land a single fucking jab or two in a couple but that wasn't why he quit, he was just being thwarted in his desire to do what they signed up to do. I think Duran just felt demeaned to be a part of the farce of that, believing there was more pride to boxing than just getting a W at any costs to your dignity (aka by literally running away from a fight for 15 whole rounds).

Ray walked the line towards the end against Hagler between running and 'boxing', but I felt he just stayed on the right side of it....against Duran he just ran.

 

About what? I scored the fucking thing exactly the same as 2 of the judges, the 3rd had it closer than me. The 'match' (you cant call that a fight) was a farce. There was no 'outclassing', there were barely even landed punches. It was just pure, unadulterated running and stink.

Pernel outclassed guys in fights, Ray just got a really big ring and ran away from one with style.

 

The fight was not even in the halfway point so there was plenty of time for Duran to get it done. Also, Ray lead on points so what he did was boxing according to the rules. It was up to Duran to find a strategy and have the skill to overcome that. He didn't have it.

 

Great, then Ray is the king of stink. All hail the king of stink. In the match that involved exchanged punches with both men trying to hurt the other instead of avoid fighting because they knew they couldn't win one, Duran won. I actually like Duran more for quitting. Ray's tactics were an affront to the sport. I don't think Duran would have wanted to eek out a win in that abortion of a match as it was.

 

You say it's absurd, yet your own scorecard doesn't have Duran winning a single round ?

 

Read it again.

 

Regarding your first point Eric, me and Hut Hut have been saying that for years.

Anyone who thinks Ray was dominating the fight, or toying with Duran, or anything of the sort either hasn't seen the fight or is a proper Duran hater.

Duran even won some rounds where Leonard was clowning or "toying". Leonard acting like a jackarse doesn't mean he's winning the round.

I scored it 2 points to Leonard also.

And Hut Hut my boy, don't bother discussing Duran with Ugo, it's a complete waste of time and energy. I get on fine with Ugo these days, but I simply ignore anything he has to say about Duran because he is borderline trolling.

He literally can't see one good thing about Duran, he probably thinks Duran was on the losind end of every match he had.

It's the same type of blind hate as guys like Esk with Tito, and Joony with Pacquiao, or qwerty with whoever ::

Absolutely bizarre quit job. Who knows why Duran really quit. He either had a mini psychological breakdown in the ring and/or there is some truth to the notion that he needed a massive shit.

About Khan, like Hut says he's not stylish. I know you probably mean style over substance as a generic phrase, but I agree with what you say about his speed. It makes people think he's better than he is.

Anytime you get a proper fast fighter, they sometimes have the illusion of being more slick/skilled than they really are. Khan is not slick, and he is not skilled. He is just fast and rangey, with decent stamina and accuracy.

Bradley is what he is. A very solid, but unspectacular fighter. A level above the likes of Alexander, but a clear below the likes of Manny and Floyd. For whatever reason he looked sloppier than usual against Alexander, even though Alexander offered almost no resistance.

He is better than a "very good" fighter though. He is a borderline elite fighter, and almost certainly the best fighter at 140.

Regarding Tito, well of course, duh :: That's something me and Hut have been saying for a while too. Tito is probably THE most overrated fighter of the modern era, followed by Tszyu and Hamed as joint second. He makes Khan look like a ring genius, and like you say his resume is very, very overrated too.

By the way Hut Hut, I've honestly never even taken any notice of how the judges scored that fight, but I just looked and two had it to Ray by 2 points, and one of them had it by 1 point.

That's surprising and very telling. Ray often got the benefit of the doubt with judges, such as the first Duran fight, the Hearns rematch, and the Hagler fight.

 

The fight's completely mythologised. People want a simple, neat narrative so history becomes Ray stupidly DECIDING to fight Duran on the inside in the first then sensibly boxing in the 2nd. And people like panchy substitute that as a memory for what their eyes actually saw.

More truthful is that he tried to box in the first one but Duran was such a master of getting inside he forced that fight on him. So Ray didn't box in the rematch he RAN. He needed to be not only out of range consistently but another 2 feet beyond that to be safe, so he gets a 24 foot ring and by fastidiously avoiding a fight he manages to eek a round ahead by the mid point, in pathetic rounds which 1 or 2 punches decide. Perhaps the worst deliberate stink i think I've ever seen in a winning effort. Genuinely. And in a regular sized ring it could never have worked.

Ridiculously mischaracterized.

Tyson quit against Holyfield through the frustration of getting beaten up and not being able to do anything about it. Duran quit because of the exhaustion of literally having to run after a fight like an errant bus, in a big clown ring made to Ray's specs for 8 whole rounds. He was just mentally worn out with the compete farce of it.

 

I'm sure everyone knows, but a regular ring is 20x20, max, often 18x18. Ray demanded a 24x24 ring for this one. Then sprinted round every inch of it.

 

You articulate your thoughts very well Hut. An enviable talent.

Anyway, I disagree that Ray tried to box in the first fight. Ray, being naturally bigger than Duran, thought he could just walk him down and stop him. Secondly, Duran said something about Juanita before the fight and had Leonard pissed off.

In the re, Leonard decided to box and move and frustrate Duran. Was a close fight, sure, but a close fight in which Leonard was undoubtedly winning.

 

I think to say he boxed is generous to Ray at the expense of the reputation of genuine stylistic boxers. Circling round and round and round a custom 24 foot ring, avoiding a fight isn't boxing in my box. Pernel Whitaker boxed, Floyd Mayweather at his best boxes, Ali boxed, B-Hop vs Tito is BOXING, even Leonard vs Hagler qualifies. What he did in New Orleans was more akin to an in-ring duck job.

In the end he got the job done, and begrudging kudos for that but in a fairly shameful way, in my little Hut-book. I strongly believe that Duran would have won the rematch too in a regulation 20 foot ring. I can barely imagine his frustration at it all.

 

REED Loves ya, Brother Hut, but U're COMPLETELY BIASED as it Pertains to Roberto Duran, Dude...Just as REED is INCAPABLE of Being OBJECTIVE about Roy Jones, YOU'RE that Way w/Duran...

Leonard SCHOOLED Duran in the 2nd Fight, then Flat Out EMBARRASSED him w/Showboating...He SHAMED Duran into QUITTING, Simple as that, Bro...A Boxing Ring is Only Soooooooo BIG....If Duran was the Quintessential Fighter like You & MWS Say, he Could've CUT OFF The Ring or Something...Leonard CONTROLLED the Distance, Hit Duran Almost AT WILL & MINDFUCKED him, N LESS than 8 Rounds...

There's ALWAYS an Excuse w/Duran...

He was "Out of Shape" in the 1st DeJesus Fight, "Partied" & was "Out of Shape" in the RE w/Leonard (Even Though EVERYBODY KNEW Leonard had a Rematch Clause & Made NO SECRETS about Exercising it), he was "Tooo Small" for Hearns, was a Dirty as Any Fighter EVER in the Davey Moore Bout & Arguably LOST to Iran Barkley...Not to Mention How Fans EXAGGERATE How Well Duran did vs. Hagler...

The Bottom Line is, Ray Leonard DEFECATED Upon Roberto Duran, PSYCHOLOGICALLY....



REED:kidcool:

 

The scale of how much I disagree couldn't even be compressed into a forum post. So I'll just say I really, really stand by my last few previous ones.

 

Duran was also outboxed by DeJesus, Benitez etc. He can't have lost because of the ring every time out?

 

De Jesus was over 10 non-title rounds and very close. Benitez beat him fair and square, at 154. Both excellent, legit wins.

Ray won and it's legit, I just think he deserves more shit than he gets for the shear degree of his stink .To get an unprecedently big, supra-regulatuon ring then literally gallop round it to the the extent that the fight is reduced to 3, 4 scuffled exchanges a round then get praised for his 'vastly superior boxing ability'? It's a total crock of distorted, revisionist shit.

- boxing + running.

 

::

Is that You, Qwerty???...Just like Joppy, Duran Only Lost Because of the Ring....



REED::

 

While NOT a "Blowout", the 1st DeJesus Bout was a CLEAR WIN for Esteban...He was Simply the BETTER MAN that Night, Period..."Very Close" is a STRETCH...

Roberto Duran LITERALLY QUIT in the Center of the Ring vs. Leonard...Yet Somehow, you have an Axe to Grind w/the Guy that DIDN'T Quit that Night???....Duran is your 'Roy Jones'...It's All Good, Bro...



REED::

 

What do you make of the Laing loss, Hut?

 

Historically, Duran Fans Rationalize EVERY SINGLE Loss on his Record, So This Should B Interesting...



REED:kidcool:

 

He had to poop?

 

In fairness Leonard admitted he knew Duran was quite blown up and that's why he wanted the rematch as quick as possible. That's Duran's fault but it's as much of a fact as an excuse. Having said that, fuck Duran for not taking the sport seriously seeveral times.

 

What Val says is true, it's not an excuse, it's a fact. Leonard even said it, that's why he wanted the rematch ASAP. Duran was eating and partying.

And REED - Leonard didn't come close to dominating the fight. The judges - very often on golden boy Leonard's side - had it to Ray by 2 points, 2 points, and 1 point.

It was a close fight.