Jon Jones vs Fedor @ heavyweight in 2011

MWS, thats a GREAT point. Im promoting you to Sgt in the GG army

 

No, I understand your position exactly. And I am just of a different opinion completely. A size difference at HW might not have made a difference when Fedor was fighting bigger guys that were one dimensional or just completely sucked. But today, with the bigger guys like Lesnar, Carwin, JDS, Velasquez, Overeem, etc that are also good athletes, size is a factor. A prime Fedor would have had a very difficult time against these guys because of their size, strength and quickness. There isn't a name on Fedor's resume that had those things combined.

I am not detracting from Fedor in the least. He was fantastic and handled everyone put in front of him. But in my opinion, the TOP guys he beat were basically his size or smaller. Fujita would probably be an exception because I considered him a pretty good HW for the time and he had a big size advantage over Fedor. But we'd be fooling ourselves if we thought Fujita or any of the big guys Fedor fought stacked up against the top, huge HW's today. They simply do not.

I don't think 5-10 pounds at HW makes much of a difference, but 15-20 pounds when the heavier guy is an athlete like Carwin or Lesnar or Overeem, I think it can make a difference.

I guess where I probably differ from most is that I think a prime Fedor would be beaten clearly by guys like Lesnar, Carwin, and Velasquez. Fedor never faced a wrestler as good and big as these guys. That's where size would make a huge difference in my opinion.

 

That would be a great point if Vitali didn't also have a 9' height advantage as well. That's the biggest piece of their difference. And as soon as wrestling, BJJ, Judo, etc become a part of boxing, your point will be even closer to being relevant.

 

Then we don't have a debate. That was my very simple point. You can't call a guy that had a size advantage in almost half his fights, "one of the smallest HW's ever."

That's just false. I am glad we finally agree.

 

Uhhh he didn't. How many times de we need to go over this? Most of the fighters that you posted were Fedors size at fight time.

 

Although the cage may have been trouble to Fedor against these guys since it favors wrestlers, I do not see any of these guys clearly beating a prime Fedor. No way.

Cain is not a super big heavyweight so he wouldnt have a big size advantage. Fedor would be dangerous for Cain anywhere the fight went. Sure Cain would dominate the wrestling, but prime Fedor was not easy to keep down, and was dangerous on the ground as well. It would be a fun scrap for sure, but to say Cain would dominate Fedor is FOTM thinking IMO.

Brock can surely smother Fedor in the cage, but. I think Fedor would be too quick and explosive for Brock and beat him senseless. We all have seen what happens to Brock when shit starts to hit the fan. He retreats and covers up. Well, there is NO OTHER fighter that would put as much pressure on Brock than Fedor would. Once Fedor starts his attack, there is no stopping, and Brock would be a sitting duck.

Carwin would surely have a punchers chance, but I see Fedor just taking it to the second round and just drowning him.

Once again, in cage, these wrestlers could possibly use their size and wrestling to pin him and make things interesting.

However, in a ring, I think Fedor would have to be the favorite.

 

Really? When did you show me that the guys I posted weren't smaller than Fedor?

Someone mentioned Coleman. And that's ridiculous. I looked it up and Fedor out weighed him by 5 and 7 pounds in their 2 fights respectively.

Who else?

 

How does a ring keep guys from being taken down? I don't get how it's an advantage for Fedor to fight in a ring vs a cage.

 

Again, we just have to disagree because there isn't a single fight on Fedor's resume that says he'd be able to "easily" get back to his feet against a guy like Cain.

Also, there is no one on Fedor's resume that says he could take one round of shots from Carwin. What other striker on that level at 265 pounds did Fedor ever fight? None.

It's all speculation because the sport has evolved. A guy like Randleman would never even sniff a HW title fight today.

 

Magic...

I'm assuming there are no takedowns in amateur wrestling because they don't fight in a cage.

Seriously though, Coleman and others took Fedor down in a RING. It's silly to think that better, bigger, stronger wrestlers like Brock, Shane and Cain couldn't do it. Just silly.

 

Well, If you have not fought in both you probably wouldnt know. Havent you ever wondered why wrestlers have so much success in a cage but not as much in a ring?

In a cage you can go for the power takedowns almost with reckless abandon and also use the cage to assist you with these takedowns.

In a ring you have to be much more careful with your shots or you can end up getting caught in the ropes.

 

Dude, did TLC hack your account? You are arguing just to argue. I never said they can't or wont take him down.

 

No, it's just sarcasm. The cage is certainly an advantage to some wrestlers. But the ring wouldn't make a big enough difference to offset the great wrestling of Lesnar, Carwin, Cain, etc.

Personally I've always thought the ring would hurt Greco-Roman guys far more than freestyle wrestlers.

 

True GURU. Any time a single or double leg shot is unseccuessful (not taking into acoount a sprawl defense), the wrestler can drive the opponent up against the cage, apply underhooks and get the takedown using the cage for leverage. Its a commonly used tactic. In the ring, speed and explosiveness are the only ways to get the takedowns with regular success. Completely different worlds for wrestling based fighters.:doh:

ray:Trpl, please tell me that this makes sense to you. I have always respected and enjoyed everything you've ever posted but today you are beginning to really worry me. As a longtime fan, you MUST know that wrestlers are MUCH more successful in the cage....

 

:scratcher:You cant be serious. Fedor has very little cage experience. Period. Not to mention he's on a steady decline now and forevermore. Cage favors wrestlers. It's always been that way. I explained the reasoning above.

 

Um, what the fuck are you talking about?

This is about the size difference between people, it's irrespective of discipline or sport.

I could have used two actors as an example and the point would have been just as valid.

 

No, I said I agree that fighting in a ring does affect some wrestlers. No questions. Again, I don't think a ring alone would NOT be able to offset the tremendous wrestling of guys like Cain and Lesnar.

But you must also realize my point is absolutely correct. Great amateur wrestlers grow up taking guys down without the benefit of a cage. So the idea that being in a ring would completely disrupt their ability to secure takedowns is a little overstated in my opinion.

That's all I'm trying to say.

 

No it's completely important to keep the disciplines in mind when talking about size difference.

But beyond that, you compared two boxers with a 9 inch height difference and somehow want to compare that to Fedor's situation. It's ridiculous. Guys like Nog and Cro Cop were marginally bigger than Fedor, but they weren't 9 inches taller.

Maybe I just don't get the comparison. It wouldn't be the first time.

 

OK I'll use a comparison you can more easily understand.

Junior Dos Santos Vs Roy Nelson.

Dos Santos seemed by far the bigger, stronger, natural heavyweight in that fight.

And guess what? He was outweighed by 23 pounds.

Again, it's about more than just weight.

 

I agree completely. But when the better, stronger guy also weighs more, it's a huge difference.

That's why Fedor was successful against guys bigger than himself. They typically sucked or were very one-dimensional. And Fedor was ahead of the curve in being well-rounded before most were.

But it's a different world today. There are 245-265 pounders that are fast, explosive and very skilled. Fedor didn't face many like that in his prime.

We are recycling points here. I really don't think we have a disagreement. I was simply saying Fedor wasn't "one of the most undersized HW's ever." You agreed, I think.

 

Dude come on are you serious? I get the fact that you like to argue, especially when someone new speaks brashly, but you're being ridiculous. Read the posts don't just jump in half assed. I said he's one of smallest. He is. He's fucking 5'11 buddy, and 245 after a trip to the buffet. With your logic BJ Penn was probably the smallest ever. He fought at heavyweight. Was that where you were going to make your next leap???

Most importantly none of your attempts to argue my claim matter. The discussion was about size and how a few pounds and a few inches do not matter in HW. I'm gonna break it down so you might be able to grasp it. Take away fight where Fedor was bigger than or the same size as an opponent. Now all you have left is guys bigger than him? You still with me? No matter HOW MANY THERE WERE. He beat them all. So simply their size did not benefit them. If you can't reach that same conclusion than there's no point discussing anything with you.

Next time follow your own advice. Research and read shit before you post your bullshit. Now if someone needs me I'll be terrorizing the waitress at Sizzler. Its endless shrimp season again.:egypt:

 

Is it just me or do you come off as trying hard to be funny yet end up looking like a moron.

I don't think anyone else on here would agree that Fedor is one of the smallest HW's of all time. That's simply not true.

I am curious if anyone else agrees with your dimensions on Fedor.

 

245 is a little heavy. He is usually in the 225-230 range

 

He's somewhere between 5'11-6'0. Almost the exact height Couture is.

 

I have always questioned if he was actually 6'0" or not.

 

Jesus, standing next to DeLa Lovesongs he really does look small.

Strangely, that photo of him and Mirko makes him look not that small, because Mirko looks like a legit 6'2 or so.

 

Look at the pride Logo. It looks like about 2" diff.

 

Simply check the last tale of the tape against Bigfoot. For a long time he was listed at 6 foot but he's actually 5'11.

 

Not true.

I am funny. Naturally so. Take a look at his last four wins. What does he give up in height alone? Six inches average?? Measure him against the rest of the top 10 heavyweights today. Still say he's not small?? I would venture to say he's the shortest out of all of them? And my comment about being 245 was mocking that fact. If he actually did any real weight cutting would you argue that he'd not be able to make 205 with ease? You're really trying to desperately cling to a point in an argument that you've already lost. Let it go. It'll give you more time to go jump on some other argument that you might be correct about.

P.S. I thought it was cute how you looked for moral support from the group;) Haha and you called me a moron. Too cute!

Mex great illustration btw!