Who damaged their legacy the most by fighting on too long and performing badly?

Mosley
Jones

 

Jones Jr. He was the best fighter on the planet at one point, whereas Mosley wasn't really that great to begin with.

 

Jones by a mile

Mosley's "legacy" is only tremendous if you believe all of the crap from people who insist that he was a great fighter... he wasn't... he was a very good lightweight champion who dispatched a string of shitty challengers... as a welterweight, he edged DLH in a terrific fight and then proceeded to beat two HORRIBLE challengers (Taylor and Stone) before being shown totally and utterly impotent in 24 rounds against Vernon Forrest, a good but hardly great welterweight... then he won a controversial decision against DLH again, this time at 154... next, he accomplished pretty much nothing in two losses to Winky Wright (the judges scoring in the second fight was outrageous) ... next, there are two wins against a faded Fernando Vargas, a loss to Miguel Cotto, a late KO of a Mayorga who had lost 3 of the previous 5 (including being completely dominated and stopped in half the time by DLH) , followed by a win over a guy who was never all that to begin with and who may have in fact been loading his gloves for years before hjaving them unloaded against him and all of the sudden people are referring to you as "an all time great" ... the notion that Shane Mosley was an all-time great is preposterous... so a career that already had a bunch of DOWNS in it to begin with isn't really hurt by some extra ones late in the game

Jones, on the other hand...

From 1995, right after he made an ass out of James Toney up until right after he decisioned John Ruiz (impressively so, considering how far up he was moving) Roy Jones was the subject of debate in ALL-TIME terms, people wanted to have real discussions about whether to rate him in the top 10 p4p ALL TIME... it seemed like he could win however and whenever he chose... his fights were boring because there was no drama, you knew he was going to win easily... after he came unglued against Montel Griffin, a lot of people started to use that fight as evidence of vulnerability... he promptly annihlated him in the rematch and for the next several years continued to win with ease... Jones' legacy was compromised a bit by the lack of a fight with Michalcewski, but outside of Irish, Kauki, UGO and the most brazen Jones haters, how many people thought that DM had any chance of winning?... most of us didn't... most of us figured DM would put up a brave show, but ultimately walk into crazy punches that he didnt see and either get stopped or become gun-shy from discouragement... Roy's comp wasn't great, but it was what was around and he made it look easy, like he could have ended the fights whenever he chose to... when he went up to face Ruiz, a lot of people thought it might be a bridge too far, even as lousy as Ruiz was, he was still a vastly bigger man... but Jones outboxed him with ease, showing a jab many of us didn't feel very confident that he could use... at that point in time, the guy was floating on cloud nine... we had no choice... hate the guy or love him (I detested Roy, frankly) you had to give him his due... the guy was a great fighter... when he fought Tarver the first time, I thought he looked "off" even a little sickly, like he had the flu or something and he wound up winning a close one... I figured it was a weight drain thing and that the seocnd time around it would be different... but he looked the same that second time and then BOOM! ... some people then tried to say that Antonio Tarver was this incredible one-shot puncher, but I never did buy that... he landed a good shot, but he landed it on a guy who was not what he used to be... still, more proof was needed... the Johnson fight provided it... THAT would have been a fine time to call it a day... there are people like Trouble Mel who will tell you that Johnson beat Jones becuase of some strategic thing he did that no one else had ever tried before, and that Jones was simply exposed... this is, of course, a load of horseshit... ask Clinton Woods how well attacking Jones worked for him... at any rate, in the last few years Jones has engaged in a sad charade, losing to fighters he would have beaten with humiliating ease in his prime, including a miserable defeat to Calzaghe, who he would have beaten 1000 out of 1000 in his best days... Jones was once the king of the mountain in the sport, he has spent the last few years making a mockery of his former standing... clearly, he has hurt his legacy more because his legacy was 10000 times bigger and better than Mosley's to begin with

 

Jones.

cdogg probably posted every point that needs to be made.

Too put it shortly, Jones had a true legacy. One of the best P4P fighters in history.

Mosley didn't even come close to gaining that legacy to destroy even if he wanted to burn it down for insurance money.

 

/thread

 

I take issue with the premise of the thread since I don't really think you can damage your legacy by fighting on too long. Is the 1994 version of Roy becoming a worse fighter the more irrelevant bouts he racks up in his 40s? Did Larry Holmes slip down anyones all time list by fighting Butterbean?

I don't see how that works.

 

:cheer:

 

Its Jones, and its not even close.

Jones has been losing badly to guys he could/would have beaten in his prime. Some of them have been very good, like Calzaghe, others have been distinctly average, like Green.

Shane has been losing respectably {and respectfully} to guys he might not have beaten in his prime.

Bottom line is that Roy had further to fall in the first place.

 

But we all still know that full well. So how is his legacy being damaged? Is Ali's legacy damaged by being seen in public not being able to walk anymore? Really not getting the thinking behind this discussion at all....

 

Yeah, Jones by miles and miles.

 

Marcellus johnson hung around and lost to a few guys who weren't fit to sweep up at his barbershop

 

Jones of course.

Side note:Most of Shane's name wins have come late in his career.Margarito,Vargas,Mayorga

 

Thing is, e-tools and others now look at Jones Jr in mythical matchups as having the worst chin this side of Terry Norris, Tarver "exposed" Roy, etc etc. If he'd retired after the Ruiz fight, nobody would have that argument to make.

 

The obvious answer is Jones.

This is a pointless thread Sly. Every great fighter fought too long and were embarassed on the way out the door. It's almost as though that's the final stamp of greatness.

Very few guys go out on top.

Ali
Duran
Leonard
Robinson
Louis
Jones Jr.
Whitaker - remember his loss to Carlos Boroquez on Friday Night Fights? Remember he OD's that night or the next night?

 

Not to mention...it took until 35 to TRULY lose a fight. It's like Emanuel Steward said..."I been watching and knowing Roy since he was an amateur and I can say I've never seen him lose a fight."

 

Huh ? Did he blink and miss Tarver send Jones to sleep ?

 

Exactly, that was what I was getting at too

The Trouble Mels of the world now think they have "evidence" against Jones

such misinformation is like a cancer... it starts off small, and then maybe a Trouble Mel-type makes enough noise and eventually less-informed or much younger people start repeating the lie until it becomes a kind of accepted "alternate" viewpoint...

 

I guess I'll just be the one to make myself really unpopular and say Roy getting stretched out by Tarver does raise certain questions about his chin. :scared2:::

 

wtf

Mosely has had good wins only a few years ago and has now lost to top p4p guys....Jones recently got KO'd in the 1st by a tap

couldn't have picked a worse candidate to put against RJJ in the poll

 

or get schooled by Montell Griffen

 

Roy was 35 or 36 when Tarver KO'd him.

Keep up.

 

19-0?

Worst poll ever!!! :laughing: :scared2:

 

LOL. A great addition to your fightbeat resume.

 

I'm telling ya.

I dunno...it seemed like a good idea at the time...

 

holyfield.

 

I don't think it matters who you compare to Jones. I don't think anyone ended their prime career like thatissed:

 

I'm with Hut Hut on this. Nobody damages their legacy based on how long they fight.

Their legacy is based on who they fought, when they fought them and how long they were able to extend their career against quality opposition.

We can all see when a guy has totally dropped off the map and is just a shadow of the fighter he used to be.

We judge guys based on what they did up to that point.


On the other had there are a few guys who have probably enhanced their legacy by having shorter then expected careers. Rocky Marciano and Salvador Sanchez come to mind, and in the case of Sanchez, we can't even be sure about that. He still had the potential to go on and prove to be even greater then he already had.

I think these examples are few a far between though.

Jones hurt his legacy by waiting until he was completely shot before fighting most of the better threats around him in the second half of his career.

 

come on, now

talk about an exaggeration

and do honestly believe that if Jones doesn't hit Griffin while he's down that Griffin gets up and survives the rest of the fight?

nonsense, Griffin was going to get knocked out... Jones did him a favor

 

"if fighter x wasn't stopped on cuts"
"if it was a 15 round fight"
"if he hadn't been dq'd"
"if the ref hadn't jumped in and stopped it when he did"
etc etc

yeah yeah:boring:

 

Jones by a mile.

I pretty much agree with cdogg's post. I've always liked Mosley, but if you think about it especially in retrospect, it's kind preposterous that he was once considered #1 P4P.

Jones was a different league of fighter, most of the time looked downright unbeatable, and his fall from grace was shocking and brutal.

Mosley had already lost in his prime and was never THAT good to begin with, so him fighting on and losing doesn't do much.

With Jones it was downright shocking.

And Hut, right or wrong, past prime or not, Roy's losses definitely affect his legacy, and make him lose a HUGE amount of that aura of invincibility.

Even if Roy was more shot than credited with against Tarver, that's always going to be talked about, and make people wonder if a prime Roy was pretty chinny too etc.