Pavlik from the Taylor fight vs Trinidad from the Joppy fight

@160 Who wins:hammert:

 

I have a feeling that most will pick Pavlik... but I think Tito woulda bombed him out. Pavlik, even in his great performances against Miranda, and Zertuche, got hit quite a bit before getting the stoppage. I dont see that working out too well for him against a Tito that still was at the peak of his confidence.

 

Yeah, give me Trinidad here.

 

Pavlik. Bigger, rangier, and probably has the edge in power at 160.

Tito obviously levels the field slightly if it's the Joppy Tito, because he still had the plaster of paris wraps then.

 

Both guys with wooden legs and big punches. I'd probably go with Tito here actually.

 

Okay Double L....

 

Pavlik was NOT, I repeat NOT a bigger puncher than Tito. Even at 160. Perhaps he has heavier hands, but Tito had the "snap", and velocity on his shots that made him a devestating puncher.

I assure you that Pavlik wouldnt have destroyed Joppy the way Tito did.

As for the last sentence *sigh*..... I give up.

If extra guaze was the key to making an ALL TIME GREAT puncher, than it would have used by a helluva lot more trainers throughout history.

 

It's a winnable fight for Pavlik but let's remember Jermain Taylor almost had him gone.

Trinidad is not only a harder puncher than Taylor, but more imporantly a better finisher.

 

I've discussed this before.

Honestly, I think it's pretty open-ended. Hopkins kept Trinidad honest with semi-hard shots littered amongst lighter blows whilst on his toes, & Pavlik will sit down more & whack a whole lot harder. Pavlik was never a fearful fighter, & being such the bigger man, I could see him imposing himself early & doing real damage. I'm not convinced Trinidad could take a lot of what Pavlik can dish out.

On the other hand, Trinidad was a clearly superior class of fighter, but it's hard to figure on him at Middle because he beat a nobody or two, then had his career completely derailed by the only quality man he met at the weight.

It's a brawl & either man might win it. I suppose I may favour Pavlik marginally.

 

No doubt about it, Tito had legit power, but you'd be crazy not to think a big wedge of COMPACTED gauze amounting to a "plaster of paris" like substance wouldn't make a difference, with the extra weight and hardness that would give compared to the average handwraps.

Tito's left hook was his only real legit power punch. Nice left hook too, pretty much the one good thing about him.

I don't think it even had much velocity on it actually, just a HUGE amount of torque. He would set his feet and just rotate his whole body into that shot.

I think Pavlik wins though, bigger, rangier, and a natural middleweight.

Pavlik's career has been a bit of a flop, and even the Taylor Pavlik wasn't great, but he's way better than anyone Tito has beaten at 160.

Which is Joppy, Cherifi and Mayorga by the way ::

 

Good point!

 

Good post. This fight is a pick-em for me. I can see Tito bombing Pavlik out but I can also see Pavliks size and strength being too much. Tito had a small frame @160.

 

good brawl here... I too, think ultimately that Trinidad's better handspeed and technique is the difference... he tastes canvas for sure, but I think he stops Pavlik eventually... good one

 

Exactly. Against Joppy, Trinidad's gloves weighed five pounds. He could've hit Pavlik in the collar bone with one of those right hands and Pavlik would've gone down. The Joppy fight was straight up attempted murder the degree to which Trinidad's gloves were loaded.

I don't care what anyone says. Trinidad was nothing but a cheater who couldn't do shit once he was forced to play by the rules. Plain and simple. And it's sad to say, because prior to his being exposed as a cheater, he was my absolute favorite fighter. And not only that, I was duped into mistaking his illegally wrapped gloves for genius timing and accuracy.

He should've been indicted on assault charges for what he did to Vargas, Reid and Joppy. The only reason Joppy wasn't ruined the way Vargas and Reid were is that Trinidad loaded his gloves "so" much for the Joppy fight, it ended much quicker, without the extended beating that Reid and Vargas endured.

 

:giggle: The whole post is funny.....your obsession over Trinidad wraps has become stronger and stronger since the two guys you most rooted for in the last 6-8 years have been proven CHEATERS JL Castillo and Antonio Margarito....

Really any proof....?

So are you saying Trinidad only cheated for those fights....??? What about Campos, Carr, and all the other fighters that were BRUTALLY Ko'ed by Trinidad.....?

 

1) no proof of this whatsoever

2) ridiculous hyperbole... I don't recall Joppy suffering a broken anything

3) more speculation... no accusations have ever been made against Trinidad regarding any possible wrongdoings against William Joppy

4) how cute

5) if by "follow the rules" you mean when he started fighting good boxers with jabs and physical durability... like that Oscar guy he fought... I guess that guy is made of cast Iron or something, no wonder why the flush shot he took after the bell didn't imeediately break something, what with all of the 5 pound gloves and all :shit:

6) What about the rest of us who weren't duped by any of it and thought Oscar De La Hoya completely exposed Trinidad's limitations and that Bernard Hopkins would do the exact same thing, only more emphatically? How come WE weren't duped?? Maybe you should re-direct your vitriol towards Trinidad back where it belongs: on YOU... Isn't this whole thing really about how mad you are at yourself for failing to accurately analyze Trinidad's strengths and weaknesses as well as those of the men he fought prior to his facing Hopkins?

7) Indictments come after arrests. As far as I know, Trinidad was not arrested after knocking out William Joppy. Hard for him to be indicted without first being charged with a crime.

8) the best part of your post... the speculation disguised as factual statement is now making it's way into the world of forensics! Bold stuff... I admire your bravery (stupidity?) ... Care to explain the physics involved in this theory of yours? Are you saying that if someone hits me in the head with a wiffle bat 150 times it will do a lot more damage than someone hitting me in the head with an aluminum bat 5 times??? Is that REALLY your position???

 

He cheated in those too, probably to a lesser extent, but nontheless.

And I don't need proof to express my opinion.

 

Yes, in this case, you do.

 

Yeah, well, in MY opinion, Trinidad's gloves were THIRTY pounds each vs. Joppy!!!!!

Now what!

 

Again. I don't need proof to express my opinion. And neither do you.

As to point #8, you've used a ridiculous example in an attempt to dismiss my point, but in fact, it is the opinions of many physicians that boxing would be a safer sport if smaller gloves were used and that head-gear would make the sport more dangerous.

If it weren't for your stupid example, it'd be an easy concept for all to grasp which is basically that getting knocked out in the first round of a fight by a single punch is going to be far less dangerous than to absorb a beating for 12 rounds.

Think of recent ring deaths in boxing - do they result from single blows, or from round after round of one-sided beat-downs? Which is it? Answer the question and then provide an example that isn't so outrageous and idiotic that it successfully illustrates why I am correct.

 

It is your opinion true, but the suggestion that Tito's gloves weighed 5 pounds in the Joppy fight is downright laughable.

I mean show us a credible source because thats a pretty bold statement to make.

As for Trinidad-Pavlik, I think Tito gets to him after an 8 round war with both guys going down. Tito is superior on the inside with those short hooks and uppercuts whereas Pavlik is better from long range with that long jab an big right hand.

 

That may be the difference right there. I still cant get over the fact that Pavlik would dwarf Tito in size though. It would have been very interesting to see how Tito would have reacted to Pavlik's strength.
​

 

I'd pick Tito

 

Ah, so we can be sure Pavlik takes this. Damn

 

No Puerto Rico Boa or jobby talk athetic:

 

1) "Trinidad cheated throughout his career with loaded gloves" is not an "opinion" ... "Trinidad was overrated" is an opinion ... you even specified weights of gloves and postulated about these factors being adjusted from one opponent to the next... you ignored (apparently you're not THAT stupid) discussing the De La Hoya fight

2) What is their take on Trinidad's gloves?

3) William Joppy wasn't knocked out in the first round by a single punch... he was floored repeatedly and stopped in the 5th round...

4) no one really knows the answer to that question... there are a million variables involved including but not limited to A) the fighter's previous history of injury; B) the fighter's general health; C) the fighter's hydration or lack thereof; D) the other fighter; E) the competency of ringside medical official (s) ... and the list goes on and on

I have debated you on this issue before with you always dodging the points

but here's some more things to ponder, in addition to all of the things I already mentioned and the glaring, obvious Hoya question that you have no answer for and never will...

1) Is it not true that for Mssrs. Vargas, Joppy and Reid that Felix Trinidad was VERY CLEARLY the hardest hitter any of them had faced in their careers at the time they fought him?

2) Is it not true that Reid and Joppy especially had never faced anything remotely close to that level of opponent before and that objectively there was little or nothing to suggest that they were on track to acheive great things, whether they had ever fought Trinidad or not?? I mean, surely you can't be suggesting that you thought David Reid, who's best win was against maybe Kevin Kelly (whom he struggled with) who had a mere 14 pro fights and had looked VERY beatable in each of them, was on his way to a star-studded career before Trinidad "ruined" him!!! That is preposterous... Bring Oscar De La Hoya up to 154 in 1999 and he, too, beats the piss out of David Reid... Joppy??? come on now... who was his biggest scalp, Julio Cesar Green??? Joppy was a beltholder happy to defend against Flotsam and Jetsam and co-exist with that Hopkins fellow... he was a completely ordinary prizefighter... Fernando Vargas could have realistically beaten William Joppy... as for Vargas, he was a good fighter before Trinidad, he was a good fighter against Trinidad, and he was still a good fighter afterwards... you know why his chin wasn't checked prior to Trinidad? because he never faced anyone who punched remotely that hard... Ike Quartey was a pretty good puncher at 147, at 154 he was fair and he visibly shook Vargas a handful of times in their fight... Vargas stood right in front of Trinidad early and got nailed with a huge hook because he foolishly believed he could take the man's punches... but there is NOTHING to suggest that Vargas wouldn't have lost to Oscar DLH the same exact way he did, Trinidad or no Trinidad

Trinidad was a tremendous puncher, deal with it... he was an overrated fighter, but his power was real... Bernard Hopkins' people didnt like the gauze placement, but in the previous 40 fights no one else had said "boo" about it... the "plaster" effect is a figment of your imagination as well, I believe... I heard those words used to describe Margarito's offense (the dampening of the gauze and all of that) but all I ever heard about Trinidad was the layering being an issue, and again only Hopkins' camp had something to say about that

 

::

 

:Thumbs:

 

Bump!

 

Trinidad wins because of the ring