If the Ruiz fight never happened...

Let's say Roy never made the jump up to heavyweight and stuck around at 175. How do you see his career panning out? Does he beat Tarver like the rest of them? Does he still get knocked out or continue to dominate the division like he did before he left?

 

Yes.

Roy was perma-damaged by the weight loss.

Even after the KO loss to Tarver, and the loss caused by the weight issue, Roy was still more affected by what the loss had done to his confidence than by the weight issues.

In effect, the weight issue lead to a loss and the loss lead to more losses thanks to the confidence being drained from Roy. He couldn't get it back because physically, he couldn't get back to where he was before. That lead to more losses and Roy began to do what all the greats do- make excuses.

You pretty much know the rest. If you study Roy since the Ruiz fight, its basically one long list of Roy ignoring warning signals and using wins over guys like Prince Abum-Bum and Omar Sheika, Lacy and Tito to keep propping his psyche up.

For me, Roy minus Ruiz = Roy W12 Tarver X3.

Eventually, he would have gotten slow or old or caught, and that wudda been that, but the Ruiz thing made him, from a historical viewpoint, but ruined him from a physical standpoint.

 

I don't know. I think he would've won the first fight more definitively, and there may never have been a second. But that doesn't mean Glen Johnson doesn't carve him up the way he did - he dealt with RJJ's speed and refused to be intimidated or deterred by it like none other.

 

I agree with alot of this, there was a big domino effect which started with the weight loss. I think if he hadn't left 175 he would have retired eventually either with that 1 DQ loss or maybe a tight split decision loss to an up n comer in a changing of the guard type fight, he might even have been somewhat relevant today

 

Roy was less than four months off the KO loss to Tarver...in truth he shouldn't have been sparring for 90 days after the KO.

I'd say he doesn't lose to Johnson if not coming off such a KO loss that quickly. Going into that fight there were rumors that he'd been knocked down several times in sparring.

 

That's the other problem- the closed nature of Roys camp. Nobody heard nuthin, nobody saw nuthin, and nobody could tell Roy nuthin.

 

How do you see Roys career going without the move up, Muzseman?

 

Bullshit. Tarver beats Roy period. Roy was 190 pounds when he fought Ruiz. He just had to drop 15 pounds. Seriously what the fuck? Perm. damaged by the weight cut ? Give me a break geez.....

 

Thats 15 pounds of muscle loss.

 

He beats Tarver.....I believe that much.


The move to heavyweight fucked him up....gain 20+ pounds of muscle...then to lose that muscle..and fight Tarver....then the rematch and the KO..:boring:

 

200lbs actually.

Pretty big deal.

In MMA terms it'd be like a circa 2007ish Lyoto Machida suddenly dropping to Welterweight.

20lbs of muscle that he put on with dieting and training, he had to diet back down so much it made him sick.

 

He would have beat Tarver clear enough that nobody (other than Tarver) would have thought a rematch was in order.

 

He would have beaten Tarver and Glen Johnson easily and Hopkins and Calzaghe would have never moved up.

 

Yeah because no one ever pursued Roy ever right. :shit:

 

Like others have pointed out, it's muscle loss.

Roy bulked up muscle, he was lean, fast and well muscled at 193, not a flabby chode.

That's a bit deal, and it's what I was trying to explain to Hut earlier on with our big e feud, that Floyd wouldn't be able to make 140 easily regardless of what he weighs in the ring, because he's basically solid muscle at 147.

I agree with most of Irish's post too.

Cutting that much muscle obviously had a pretty fucking big effect, and weakened him considerably. From there it was a domino effect as pointed out.

Like whiskey said, chances are Roy beats Tarver clear enough in the first fight that a rematch probably doesn't happen.

But how do you guys think he ranks historically if no Ruiz, but also no Tarver KO?

As pointed out, at some point he would have got old enough to get caught and KO'd regardless, but it would have played out differently, and a few years down the line.

But for me the Ruiz win is a big deal, I take size difference into account more than most. I thought Ruiz would win that fight on size alone.

 

Then Tarver loses comprehensively and we might get a Hopkins re-match after he KO's DLH

 

At that point, my money would be on Roy.

 

Jones clearly was hurting from the weightloss & I honestly think he'd have bested Tarver in any fight under more routine circumstances from the same period. After that, the waters begin to muddy...you are dealing with too many variables as Jones begins to lose speed & reflexes to age, regardless of what weight he was fighting at.

One thing I do feel confident of is that someone would've knocked him out regardless --- Jones was never going to believe he could be beaten & needed to retire until it was shown to him, such was his ego. Hell, even now, with it having been shown to him multiple times, he still fights on & seems to retain an air of false confidence. Unreal.

I wonder what McClellan would be saying to him nowadays, if his mind was still here.

 

That scale was wrong.

Roy was 200lbs for that fight.

 

The official weigh in is 193, where are you getting 200 from? Fight night weight?

 

Nah, he was 199 on official scale.

 

Huh???

Roy OFFICIALLY Weighed 193 for the Fight & Estimated that he was 200lbs EVEN on Fightnight...THEN, Roy Hung Around @ that Weight for MORE than 6 Months, Trying to Finalize a Deal w/Evander Holyfield, who Ended Up Facing James Toney Instead....

1nce that Fight Fell Thru, Roy Moved BACK DOWN to 175 & Lost 25lbs of MUSCLE in 4-5 Weeks....




REED:mj:

 

SHUTthefuckUP, Doub...

Just like Margarita, just like Andrade, Glen Johnson is a VERY BASIC, TOUGH GUY, Pressure Fighter...For SOME Reason, U Act as if Johnson Did Something SPECIAL (Just as U Acted like Margarita & Andrade had SPECIAL Defensive Powers) Despite the FACT that his Defense BLOWS...



REED:boohoo:

 

I made this call right after the 1st Tarver fight and was ridiculed for it. RJ hasnt been the same since.

 

Roy Jones Actually STARTED the RECENT Wave of Drastic Weight Jumping...w/Out Roy Jones, Manny Pac WOULDN'T B Doing what he's Doing Now, @ Higher Weights...



REED:mj:

 

jones jr would have defeated tarver more easily in that first fight. in fact i think he may have simply wiped his ass with tarver. tarver did shame him into the bout at the ruiz post fight. that to me was why the fight happened. eventually though, i think jones jr. sticks around and gets KOd whether it was at 75 or above. in his prime i figured he would have never gone out like this, but the guy simply doesnt know when to quit and i guess body/head sucked the money out of his bank account.

its a shame most are biased against him historically by what has occurred. because the dude was damn near invincible in his prime. it was suicide to trade with him back then. guys really wanted no part of him based on the compensation to ass whip ratio considering what type of draw he was. revisionist history is hurting his greatness. the guy was easily the most talented guy ive seen in the ring

 

Oh, puhlease ::

Even though Jones deserves some defence in this thread, that last line was sickening to read.

 

id say forbes fracturing delahoyas orbital bone played a significant part in pacquiao taking the jump

 

Losing that much muscle would have to have had an effect, & he probably would have beat Tarver convincingly enough that a rematch would not have been warranted.
However, he would still be getting K.O'ed at the age of 42.
He relied so heavily on those amazing reflexes that when he lost 10% of them, he lost 70% of his effectiveness (Yes, those figures have been scientifically proven).
Unlike Ali, for example, he just hasn't got the chin, or resourcefullness to win otherwise.

 

Jonnes would have dominated his division for a couple years more and stopped Tarver, then Calzaghe would have come and ended his reign