1. Destruction and Mayhem

    Destruction and Mayhem PHASE ----3

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    Good Flick with Meryl Streep and Philip Seymour Hoffman

    The film definitely left you in doubt! :lol:
     
  2. Anthony

    Anthony Admin Staff Member

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    No doubt in my mind. He molested the boy.
     
  3. Destruction and Mayhem

    Destruction and Mayhem PHASE ----3

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    I dunno, the dude made a great case for himself and gave logical answers to every question. It seemed to add up. Half way through the film I was with you on this matter, no doubt, but towards the end...man I don't know.
     
  4. Anthony

    Anthony Admin Staff Member

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    The minute she claimed to call the other nuns and he resigned after that, he admitted it to me. Especially since she didn't make no such call.
     
  5. ArturoGatti

    ArturoGatti WBC Silver Diamond Emeritus Champ

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    i might watch it soon. psh is the man.
     
  6. Erratic

    Erratic "Twinkle Toes" McJack

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    It's Philip Seymour Hoffman, so you know he did it.
     
  7. osfan

    osfan Undisputed Champion

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    i still am not sure whether PSH molester the kid or not, but i dont mind to have Meryl Streep's no nonsense nun character to teach my kids.
     
  8. Damien

    Damien Undisputed Champion

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    At the end, I didn't think that he had done anything, but I certainly had "Doubt".

    Good movie.
     
  9. Anthony

    Anthony Admin Staff Member

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    Then why did he stop her from making the call? Why when Streep made up that story from a nun in another school did he automatically concede?

    Flowers as his bookmarks?
     
  10. Damien

    Damien Undisputed Champion

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    Because the accusation alone would ruin him and would put "Doubt" into everyone's minds when it came to him?
     
  11. Anthony

    Anthony Admin Staff Member

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    Why didnt he deny it? His only response was that she went against protocal. That she wasnt suppose to talk to a nun, she needed to talk to the head guy in charge. He didnt deny it.
     
  12. Damien

    Damien Undisputed Champion

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    I haven't seen the movie since I saw it the theater so I can't really offer an answer. I don't even remember what his level of denial was. I just remember thinking that he was innocent and getting kind of a raw deal because even if he was innocent and denied it until he was blue in the face, his image would always be tarnished. I figured he agreed to leave or whatever it was he agreed to do simply because of that.

    It could certainly be that he was guilty though. That's why it's called Doubt. No one knows for sure.
     
  13. Destruction and Mayhem

    Destruction and Mayhem PHASE ----3

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    exactly.
     
  14. Anthony

    Anthony Admin Staff Member

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    When she lied and said she called the nun, Hoffman flipped out. Said she didnt follow the chain of command. He flipped out because the priest always cover for each other. That is something streep realized when she did in fact turn him in and they just transferred him. That is why she was crying at the end. Lets not forget, that he has been transferred before.

    Lets not also forget about the little whiteboy who moved when Hoffman tried to touch him. When hoffman announced he was leaving, that kid had a look of relief on his face and actually smiled.

    The black kid was gay. His mother admitted that too him and he had no friends at the school other than the teacher. A teacher who had his gym shirt and gave the kid wine to drink.

    Lets also not forget how Hoffman was very concerned with the chidren's fingernails and wanted them nice and groomed. He also liked to keep his fingernails long.
    He also keeps flowers as bookmarks.

    This movie is not a mystery. He was guilty. The minute that streep said that she never called the nun, proved he was guilty. And the movie is not called Doubt because we arent sure if he did it or not. The movie is called Doubt because when looking at all of this bullshit in the catholic church, one has doubt whether the church is credible or not.

    Again, when streep said she called the nun, hoffman stopped denying it. And turned his focus on her for going around the chain of command. He then said he would step down. He did all of that, despite the fact that she made no such call. If Hoffman would have kept denying if after, then i would have believed him. But she stopped him cold.
     
  15. Black Market Baby

    Black Market Baby International Degenerate

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    In the movie I remember thinking that PSH's character did molest the boy. I saw the play and it was much more in doubt. More subtle.
     
  16. Destruction and Mayhem

    Destruction and Mayhem PHASE ----3

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    I call bullshit on that statement. Where is your evidence?

    It was clear to me after the movie finished that when Streep's character broke down and said "I have doubt" at the very end of the film, she was referring to having doubt whether he was guilty or not. The "Doubt" surrounding his innocence/guilt is what the film was about. The Catholic church wasn't on trial here.
     
  17. Black Market Baby

    Black Market Baby International Degenerate

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    I think it's ambiguous. I think the "Doubt" part is about the triangle of people involved (Adams, Hoffman, and Streep) and how infallibility, whether in their commitment to religion, or their personal deeds...can be not so infallible.
     
  18. Anthony

    Anthony Admin Staff Member

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    Um no. She did not have doubt if he was guilty or not. There was no doubt in Streep's mind. Her doubt was of the whole institution of the catholic church, since Hoffman's only punishment, was to be moved to another church, where he will do the same thing.

    Watch the movie again.
     
  19. Anthony

    Anthony Admin Staff Member

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    EXT. THE CHURCH GARDEN - SISTER ALOYSIUS - DAY
    It’s a beautiful early winter’s day. The Choir can softly be
    heard singing SILENT NIGHT. Sister Aloysius is sitting in her
    shawl on a bench. Sister James exits the convent and
    approaches her.
    SISTER ALOYSIUS
    Sister James, welcome back.
    SISTER JAMES
    Thank you, Sister.
    SISTER ALOYSIUS
    You were missed. How is your
    brother?
    SISTER JAMES
    Better. Much better.
    90.
    (CONTINUED)
    SISTER ALOYSIUS
    I’m very glad. I prayed for him.
    SISTER JAMES
    It was good to get away. I needed
    to see my family.
    SISTER ALOYSIUS
    Then I’m glad you did it.
    SISTER JAMES
    And Father Flynn is gone.
    SISTER ALOYSIUS
    Yes.
    SISTER JAMES
    So you did it. You got him out.
    SISTER ALOYSIUS
    Yes.
    SISTER JAMES
    Donald Miller is heartbroken.
    SISTER ALOYSIUS
    Can’t be helped. It’s just till
    June.
    SISTER JAMES
    I don’t think Father Flynn did
    anything wrong.
    SISTER ALOYSIUS
    No? He convinced you?
    SISTER JAMES
    Yes, he did.
    SISTER ALOYSIUS
    Hmmm.
    SISTER JAMES
    Did you ever prove it?
    SISTER ALOYSIUS
    To whom?
    SISTER JAMES
    Anyone but yourself?
    SISTER ALOYSIUS
    Nope.
    SISTER JAMES
    But you were sure.
    SISTER ALOYSIUS
    Yes.
    SISTER JAMES
    I wish I could be like you.
    SISTER ALOYSIUS
    Why?
    SISTER JAMES
    Because I can’t sleep anymore.
    SISTER ALOYSIUS
    Maybe we’re not supposed to sleep
    so well. They made Father Flynn
    Pastor of Saint Jerome.
    SISTER JAMES
    Who?
    SISTER ALOYSIUS
    The Bishop appointed Father Flynn
    Pastor of Saint Jerome Church and
    School. It’s a promotion.
    SISTER JAMES
    You didn’t tell them?
    SISTER ALOYSIUS
    Oh, I told our good Monsignor. I
    crossed the garden and I told him.
    He did not believe it to be true.
    SISTER JAMES
    Then why did Father Flynn go? What
    did you say to make him leave?
    SISTER ALOYSIUS
    That I had called a nun in his
    previous parish. That I had found
    out his prior history of
    infringements.
    SISTER JAMES
    So you did prove it!
    SISTER ALOYSIUS
    I made no such call.
    SISTER JAMES
    You lied?
    SISTER ALOYSIUS
    Yes. But if he’d had no such
    history, the lie wouldn’t have
    worked. His resignation was his
    confession. He was what I thought
    he was. And he’s gone.
    SISTER JAMES
    I can’t believe you lied.
    SISTER ALOYSIUS
    In the pursuit of wrongdoing, one
    steps away from God. Of course
    there is a price.
    INSERT - HER CRUCIFIX CRADLED IN HER HAND. SHE COVERS IT WITH
    HER SHAWL.
    SISTER JAMES
    I see.
    SISTER ALOYSIUS
    Oh, Sister James!
    SISTER JAMES
    What is it, Sister?
    SISTER ALOYSIUS​
    I have doubts! I have such doubts!
     
  20. Destruction and Mayhem

    Destruction and Mayhem PHASE ----3

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    Interesting. Ok I'll check it again with this in mind and get back to ya...
     
  21. Destruction and Mayhem

    Destruction and Mayhem PHASE ----3

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    This dialogue can still be interpreted the way I see it and it still suggests it to me. Streep's character lied in order to attempt to find the guy guilty. She had to attempt to remain resolute in her convintions at the beginning of the conversation but towards the end of it she began to have doubts.
     
  22. Anthony

    Anthony Admin Staff Member

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    No sly. Just no. I'm sorry there is no debate. Nothing in streeps words indicate she has changed her mind on his guilt. In fact she now says he is guilty. The whole movie was a liberal attempt at bashing the catholic church. Because the church doesn't do shit with these priest, just moves them. Her doubt is with the church. Hoffman was guilty.
     
  23. Destruction and Mayhem

    Destruction and Mayhem PHASE ----3

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    I'm not convinced pal.

    Streep knows that she was initially so convinced of his guilt that she was willing to make something up to "prove" it. However there was no confession or concrete evidence and after the "sister" points out to her that she's lied in order to get the man to leave Streep starts having her own doubts about the entire allegation. I see Streep as initially trying to remain ROCK SOLID on her initial convictions and show a brave face on it but during the course of that conversation in the aftermath of it she having doubts about it all.

    Now that's not to say that I've completely dismissed your position on those doubts being about how the church conducts it's internal affairs...I'll look at the movie again and check it out...but when I watched teh film I was left with no doubt that the doubt of teh title was to do with the doubt of his guilt......and I say this without a doubt!!
     
  24. Black Market Baby

    Black Market Baby International Degenerate

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    Sly, just a note...Streep didn't make something up to prove his guilt. She made up something to test his guilt. That test resulted in her believing she was right all along. I think her doubt was that she had to test that in the first place.
     
  25. Destruction and Mayhem

    Destruction and Mayhem PHASE ----3

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    cool.
     

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