Haye vs. Wladimir...

Haye is a cheap shot con artist.

He's basically talked big for years now and has taken absolutely NO RISKS... He's called out the Klitchkos, dogged them in the press, and maintained it was them avoiding him, despite him being the one who would somehow find his way out of the fights whether it was through an "injury" or "money issues" or whatever.

He's been doing for as long as anyone can remember and the problem is that people have been seeing through his act for years now. So he really has no choice now but to man up and face Wlad or otherwise he becomes a joke.

I personally still have my doubts of him having the set to step in the ring with Klitschko but I guess it would be kind of hard for him to find a way out now, right?

 

I've watched every single Haye fight I think and when he first mooted a trip up to HW, I honestly thought he would get mashed. The facts are that his power is legit at HW- he's not Tyson or Lennox legit in terms of pure power but the right hand power shot has hurt every single HW he has hit and it is legitimately quick for a big bloke.

That gives him a chance. A reasonable chance, in fact, especially when coupled with Wlad's chin, which is shite. The sheer averageness of Wlad's competition (not his fault necessarily) and the more negative style given him by Stewart have hidden his glaring weakness well, but the fact is that his chin is awful and if Haye lands, he might well win this in spectacular fashion.

However, the closer the fight has got the less chance I am giving Haye. This might be because his patter stopped being entertaining a long time ago and is now just utterly boring or perhaps that I am sick of hearing no-nothings tell me about how Haye is going to smash Wlad's face inside three rounds so I now actually want him to lose, but the truth is that he has no advantages in this fight bar a speed advantage. He will be outjabbed, he is smaller, he hardly throws a jab, he has a truly awful chin himself, his stamina is dreadful and his power fades the longer the fight goes on.

His only chance is to land something hefty, early. If he does, he can win. If he doesn't land early then he will lose, and lose BIG, because his chin is so shit that I can't see him hanging around long enough to take a sustained beating: once Wlad lands a big right hand, Haye is OUT. About eight or nine rounds should do it.

MTF

 

I agree in principle but it is worth pointing out something that is now long since forgotton it seems. At 200lb, Haye did take risks. He went to France and iced Mormeck after having been floored heavily himself. He then unified straight away.

This is easily forgotton because Haye has basically turned tail when the Klit's responded to his runny mouth.

MTF

 

On the matter of Haye's power.....look at the men he has "proven" his HW punch against.

Tomasz Bonin
Monte Barrett
Nikolai Valuev
John Ruiz
Audley Harrisson.

You can scratch the Harrison fight. That fight now seems to have been contrived or fixed in some way.

As impressive as the Bonin stoppage was, it seems to have been based as much on speed and being able to reach Bonin repeatedly, without having to worry about anything coming back. Bonin was also beaten by Harrison.

Valuev....very little to talk up apart from the last round.....again Haye had all night to do as he wished without having to work constantly or worry about the incoming.

Barrett....impressive to a degree but again, Haye had two rounds to do his spadework and on the one occasion that Barrett, who seemed terribly shot, was able to get to work, Haye tasted leather and went down. Haye basically needed the same number of knockdowns to take care of a shot version of the same guy that Wlad had blown away 8, 9 years earlier.

Ruiz- impressive start but Haye didn't score a knockdown after the 5th and basically was, once again, allowed a lot of flat, dead spots to take time off and do his thing. Ruiz basically showed his age and not much more. Ruiz also had Haye down at the end of the first off a right hand, depsite having being bludgeoned for much of the first round.

But there is a far more striking common thread to all of these fights. None of these guys, not Ruiz, not Barrett, not Valuev, not Harrison, not Bonin...have gone on to do a damned thing of note since they fought Haye. Barrett has fought twice since 2008, drawing twice. Bonin has not fought since 2009 and was beaten again after the Haye fight by somebody called Andrew Wavryzk or something. Valuev has not fought since. Ruiz has flat out retired. Harrison has not fought since.



What does that tell us? That Haye was such a killer that he managed to retire these guys? Or that they were on the verge of collapse when he fought them??? Before they fought Haye, Ruiz had won 3 of 7, with 3 defeats, 4 if Toney hadn't failed a steroids test, Barrett had won 4 of 7, Valuev was on a 4 fight winning streak- all of them decisions, despite his size and strength. So Haye had managed to remain upright against a guy that Ruiz and Holyfield had managed to remain upright against too. ::

The guys that Wlad was fighting all encountered a similar downward spiral. Mainly cos he damaged them. Byrd was dehumanized and ran off to Cruiserweight. So did Chambers. What was left of Sam Peter's chin was removed and he too is now finished.

I don't want to be seen to be spelling things out, but to avoid the "nut-hug" charge I feel I should outline why I think Wlad will take care of business.

 

Haye can punch. He can't do much else especially well but he can certainly whack.

 

I don't want to defend Haye but he has been merely doing what the Press in Britain allow him to get away with. Haye appeals to the rather limited intellect of a lot of people in Britain, who want "Dem Germans and Dem Russians" taken care of. So he is indulged. They actually will contentedly accept his boorish tactics and in some cases may actually regard his behaviour as perfectly normal.

Of course, most of what you say is true anyways.

 

To what extent? Why does he need repeated free shots to get rid of utterly shot guys like Barrett and Ruiz, neither of whom were all that strong to begin with, Barrett was an undersized guy 10 years past his best, and Ruiz was a 190lb Cruiser to begin with. Both men were what, 38 years old when Haye fought them.

 

Ruiz is a pretty rugged guy, he has managed to survive plenty of decent punchers since Tua, dude can survive if nothing else....haye managed to make valuev do the Judah dance temporarily, that means he has by far enough to put wlad away if the opportunity arises....plus, no one put away fraudley like that, not that quickly, and the latter has faced some fringe guys

 

:say::say::say::say:

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Haye can hit with the right hand mate. He's built his entire career on it. The speed and power of his right hand is about all he has.

MTF

 

Why does Wlad need a million rounds to get an utterly shot Sam Peter outta there? Why didn't Wlad ever look like hurting Ibragimov, who was undersized and garbage? You can do this all day really if you want with almost any fighter.

Haye is a career cruiserweight who has hurt and dropped every HW he has fought bar a massive freak guy. His power is legit; not murderous, but legit at HW.

MTF

 

That's all I was asking for, some sort of an idea as to what bracket of "power" he fell into. Legit, yes. Murderous, no.

As for the scenarios you mention, Wlad combines an instilled conservatism which, when combined with the greater mass and toughness of the men he has fought, means fights go longer. Its a contrast worth noting- Haye wants to get them out, but labours to a degree, needing multiple "big moments", whereas Wlad somehow manages to get guys out, and get them out better, despite supposedly not wanting it. Its what KauKi is referring to when he notes the ridiculous contrast between Wlads's "boring" style and his KO ratio.

Sam Peter wasn't totally shot. And if he was shot, who laid the groundwork? Wlad, back in 2005, if I could be so bold as to borrow from the notion of a persons chin being broken. Wlad had him going in the 12th of their first fight.

As for Ibragimov, be fair. That guy fought to survive and was probably saved by the bell on one occasion.

Regardless, both Peter and Ibragimov were innately tougher guys than what Ruiz or Barrett were, at least at that stage of their respective careers.

 

honestly, either of them (Haye or Wlad) going out like that would be funny and enjoyable to me

 

it is kind of bullshit to act like Wlad is the only guy doing that

it's a shit era in every single weight class, it isn't just heavyweight

 

:bears:

There is a thin crisp of relatively good talent on top of most divisions. The reason we see all this Catch-Weight bullshit is because of the lack of talent and true depth. The fact that Judah is fighting Khan tells you that 140 has regressed.

 

This is what I originally said:

Learn to read... ::

I agree as regards his HW days. As a cruiser, Haye was a one punch KO artist. At heavy he has hurt fighters without ever looking like sparking anyone out.

Balls. Peter was totally shot which, considering he was shite to begin with tells you plenty.

Wlad spent the entire fight throwing parries. It was the most horrible, shameful HW unification bout in the history of boxing.

Even at that late stage, Ruiz was more durable than either of those chumps. If he was anything, John Ruiz was a tough little bastard.

MTF

 

indeed

 

Zab Judah...

MTF :laughing:

 

Here is the thing Feebles........Judah was found out 10 years ago. Complaints about the HW division may be justified, or justifiable, but against a backdrop of Khan vs Judah? I think not.

 

Neither division is especially strong, I agree, but the HW division is just awful. Absolutely awful. There is an argument, a strong argument, to be made that Wlad was found out ten years ago...

MTF

 

Wow. Corrie Sanders must have been one unique dude. Ring Canastota. Now.:kidcool:

 

The line's busy. They're on the blower to Russ Puritty

MTF :doh:

 

Good. He can tell them about the whipping he also took from Sanders and Vitali, saving Canastota two phone calls. :crafty:

 

OTOH, Valuev and his freaky 'homer simpson syndrome' aside, just about every time he's hit a heavyweight cleanly he's hurt or dropped them.

 

This and I will go further. If Haye beats Wlad I will come here to eat my crow for a day or two and then request a 3 month ban from the site.

 

Are you talking about Haye or Valuev? I assume Haye, Valuev couldn't punch a rail ticket ::

yeah, sure, every heavyweight Haye has caught clean he has hurt or dropped.

Who has he been hitting cleanly? Barrett?? Ruiz?? These guys have a lot of miles on the clock. And why has he been hitting them cleanly? Because they could not establish the jab and keep Haye busy. Because they were basically plodding into his range and giving him time to recharge and set things up.

Not saying that Haye cannot punch or anything, just saying that there is a lot more to it than just the simple medium of him hitting people and them going over.

 

Yeah I know, but if there was a choice amongst the masses regarding which division could be the most exciting, it would start from heavyweight. Heavyweights is like the 100m race at the Olympics. It's the one thing which almost everybody pays attention to. To repair boxing or to invigorate it, it should start in the heavyweight division.

 

I have already decided to stick around and deal with the flack if Wlad loses. I have my mind made up about how he loses if he does and it will be interesting, from just a pure boxing p.o.v to see how right I am in the event that it comes to pass.

 

People act as if the Klitschkos are part of the problem. What sort of a division would there be without them? What sort of a division would there have been from the time of the retirement of Lewis if the Klitschkos had not been around? Rahman vs Maskaev III and IV?? Peter vs Arreola? Haye vs Chisora and Fury vs Povetkin?

 

You're greatly overestimating the quality of fighter needed to knock out Wlad Klitschko.