Where does Wlad rank in HW history?

Ali, Lewis, Louis, Holyfield, Tyson, Holmes, Frazier, Norton, Charles, Walcott, Liston, Schmeling, Bowe, Moorer, Lyle, Foreman, Baer, Weaver, Coetzee, Marciano, Quarry, Shavers, Young, Thomas, Witherspoon

That's 25 guys off the top of my head with at least one win better and more meaningful than any of Klitschkos wins

Took me all of 3 minutes to think of that many... It stands to reason I probably forgot one or two guys

Hell, Vitali's most famous LOSS trumps all of Wlad's victories

 

So you're trying to tell me that Weaver, Coetzee, Baer, JERRY QUARRY, EARNIE SHAVERS, JIMMY YOUNG are greater Heavyweights than Wlad?

Quarry and Shavers never won a belt and were never dominant for any stretches of time. Coetzee? Really?

See this is what I'm talking about. Some of you guys are just ridiculous.

 

I was being a bit facetious with the "top 40" remark, which should have been obvious to anyone

Let me put it this way:

The previous dominant champ, Lennox Lewis, would have annihlated Wladimir... gone right after him and his chin

I am extremely confident that Holyfield and Bowe, to name two other recent heavies (lest anyone accuse me of old-timer bias) , would not have failed where the likes of Brewster and Sanders succeeded ...

In a who-beats-who, Wlad is probably top 15... but his opponents (and those of his brother) are horrendous, the worst outside of Floyd Patterson and Tommy Burns... he has been knocked out by a "talented" journeyman, a lazy pig and a clubfighter...

If there was a heavyweight from 1975 with those credentials, the forum would be in an uproar over the idea of him being an ATG if someone was suggesting so right now

All of this to me smacks of desperation to make the current era of the sport seem like it's really great, when it is, in fact, horrible

 

IMO...three stoppage losses to inferior opponents while in his prime years put a huge dent in Wlad's legacy.

When evaluating a fighter's career, I look at the whole picture, not just certain parts.

And I don't go just by the number of defenses, the quality of that opposition needs to be considered. When I see someone making a case for a fighter and never discussing quality of opposition, that tells me that the person making the case may not be totally convinced of what he is selling.

When you toss in the 3 stoppage losses and the overall suckiness of the division, I can't find a place for Wlad anywhere in the top ten. MAYBE somewhere in the top 20. But I'd have to really give it a good look to make that claim.

 

You cant read

re-read what I actually typed and try again

 

Buster Douglas has to be in there too, right?

 

whoops forgot him

26 guys with at least one victory far better than any by Wladimir

not saying Buster Douglas is GREATER than Wlad... I am illustrating a point that people are acting like the idea that Wlad's opposition being horrible is just some invention borne of xenophobia or whatever the fuck Irish and Kauki seem to believe is the situation

 

Absolutely. Imagine if Ali had managed to lose in embarrasing fashion to Mac Foster, Thad Spencer and George "Scrap Iron" Johnson during the 60's?

Or if Joe Louis was KOed by a handful of this "Bum of the Month Club" level opponents?

Or if Larry Holmes couldn't get past Leroy Jones and Scott LeDoux in the early years of his title reign. Or doesn't shake off getting blasted by Earnie Shavers in their 2nd fight?

And Holmes-Shavers is especially telling here because Holmes was knocked on his ass and seriously hurt against one of the biggest punchers ever in heavyweight history. And he didn't fall apart and get stopped like Wlad did in a similar situation.

 

naw i definitely misread your initial posts - i thought you meant they were heavies who should be ranked as greater than Wlad.

I certainly do agree about the opposition. people can deny it all they want, this is one of the worst heavyweight divisions in the sport's history and it has been so for nearly a decade. might even be the worst, i'd have to go back to the olden days

 

Wlad had three losses in his prime??

His prime as what???

A man with a full hairline???

His prime as a fighter is right now, and....he aint lost since 2004.

You put Corrie Sanders in with Wlad now and see how long it takes Wlad to deal with him.

Sanders ends up like he was back fighting Vitali.

 

Sorry, dude. You CAN'T just dismiss that loss. It's funny how prime is moved around to when a fighter is doing his best. What you are doing is what some Tyson fans do when they try to claim Tyson's prime years ended right after Michael Spinks was KOed.

I hold Wlad's losses to inferior opponents against him the same way I do for Lewis. They happened, they matter. And winning rematches do help somewhat, but they don't cover up that that the losses never should have occured in the first place. And it's not like it's one loss...he managed to do this three times. And he never got back in the ring with the one who beat him the worst.

 

Again you're arguing a point no one is making. The discussion is merely about ranking in terms of greatness not whether someone has a better name on their resume than another.

Kirkland Laing has Roberto Duran (close to prime) on his resume. Floyd Mayweather has never beaten a guy of Duran's greatness.

In a Floyd mayweather greatness discussion...would you raise the name of Kirkland Laing to defend your rankings? Obviously not..so why talk about Quarry and Shavers and other such guys instead of sticking to the point of the thread?

 

Sure...how old is Sanders now? And instead of being semi-retired when he knocked Wlad's block off...he's been actually retired for a while now. I bet Wlad would LOVE that match-up. And it would be fun to see the bullshit "payback" angle being touted in the media.

 

It seems that the longer the Klitschkos stick around, the worse the division gets. :wack:

 

Wlad can't be above anyone that was at one point clearly the best heavyweight in the world. Wlad has never been that.

 

Nope...it's been at a pretty consistent level of suck for a while now.

 

Answer me this then: Vitali is a greater heavyweight than Wlad. But Wlad has a better resume.

How does that tally???


If Resume is not a hard and fast guide for determining greatness, then it cannot be a hard and fast guide for ruling out greatness.

I have already said that Wlad is not a great heavyweight, btw. But he kicks the fucking crap out of a whole load of great heavyweights.

 

This is the problem.

If one man dominates a division, by virtue of that people say that the rest of the division sucks. Fighters are only given credit for the division if they didn't dominate the division. Kinda strange circular reasoning.

So people often say that Joe Louis' division SUCKED. However maybe it didn't and Louis was just too dominant.

I think it's unfair to judge a fighter by your perception of the division that he's in. What's more imporatnt is if he fought everyone there was to fight at the time. If a fighter ducked his biggest challenges, and only fought guys which everyone knows were inferior fighters to others he chose not to fight..it's FAIR to judge him on that. But if he fought everyone there is to fight in his division...that's all he could do..and who knows...perhaps the rest just looked crap..because he made them look like crap.

Just something to think about going forward...

 

We have all heard of losses after a man is past his best.

What about losses when a man is yet to reach his best??

 

Wlad hasn't dominated the division, though. There's only been one other decent heavyweight around during his reign and he won't fight him.

 

Yes. He needs to man up like the Williams Sisters and just do this.

 

LOL, the only fighter around who gets a pass for being pasted three times by nobodies

it's amazing

 

you are exactly right

 

Who is giving him a pass????

Wladimir Klitschko, the only fighter around whose prime runs from 1996 to present.

::

 

nice try

it's sucked for a good ten years or so... the last couple of years of Lennox's reign it was already trash and I was saying so then

the arrival of John Ruiz alone should have been enough to signal that dark days were upon us

 

And sometimes, a fighter's opposition is just crappy. Sorry, I don't see a need to make excuses for a fighter whose opposition has been mostly mediocre and has managed to lose to 3 of those opponents by stoppage.

And Louis didn't get KOed by his "Bum of the Month Club" opponents.

 

No. His bum of the month run started AFTER he had lost to Schmeling ::

 

He can't help the situation, but the facts are the facts.

 

I don't know anyone without an agenda who would consider Schmeling to be a "Bum".

 

And I might kick the crap out of Ricardo Lopez, it doesn't mean I'm a greater fighter than he is

Wlad's greatness isn't being ruled out just on his resume, it's ALSO being ruled out on the basis of his THREE GODDAMN KO LOSSES TO TERRIBLE FIGHTERS

What the hell is the matter with you people?

You know why Vitali's better than his brother??? because Vitali never looks worried or shaken... he coolly does his awkward, effective thing... Vitali proved his chin, Lewis hit him with some shots that would have knocked out 99% of guys and the best he could manage was to stagger him and still the big fellow showed resiliency and heart... he is a FIGHTER, he has balls, he has courage and toughness