Did Richard Steele make the right call in Chavez-Taylor I?

This post makes no sense. I already debated the decision. In fact I engaged with the issue so much that I CHANGED my mind.

But the fact remains that all these controversies are the result of 12 round fights. There've been more shitty, unsatisfactory and inconclusive endings since 12 round championship fights than the entire history of boxing prior.

 

the post makes perfect sense.

 

So based on you're rationale, a good ref SHOULD not have let Hearns-Barkley continue.

See the logic?

 

Certainly if we were in a constrained discussion like a bloody senate debate & bringing up one didn't allow us to discuss the other. A slightly tangential point isn't a 'cop out', it's just a that.....me discussing what the subject brings to my mind.

 

So you're saying that you think it was stopped correctly but it should have been 15 rounds in which case we wouldn't have to worry about all this nonsense it would have been solved by itself?

 

Um, I agree that he should not have let it continue

That was a TERRIBLE non-stoppage on Steele's part

you're missing the point

STEELE is not the issue.

I don't care if Don King personally said to him before the 12th "if Julio knocks him down, call off the fight"

all I care about is the stoppage itself being a proper, by-the-book stoppage... are you ok TWICE, no answer, he looks at his corner instead

fight over, the CALL is good, I could give a flying fuck who the ref is

If you want to argue that maybe Taylor would have answered him if that idiot Duva hadn't been up on the ring apron jumping up and down like a lunatic, that's reasonable

but to say that a ref calling off a fight when a guy doesn't respond to his questions is somehow wrong makes no sense to me... that's why refs ask fighters in those instances or tell them to come forward, to ascertian if they are hurt or not... Taylor didn't answer, and a ref should always stop a fight in that situation

 

Nah, I've already said I now think Steele probably stopped it wrongly & most likely for the wrong reasons. Though if I watch it again I might change my mind again.

 

oh... wasn't sure you were being serious about changing your mind.

 

I don't know how much clearer I can be about this, because apparently it is not registering with anyone:

I DO NOT CARE IF Steele was the dirtiest ref in history, I am interested only in the call itself. The call is CORRECT. It would be correct if an awful referee made it, it would be just as correct if a really good ref, like Kenny Bayless, made it.

 

Nah...

I used to think so. but look at steele the moments preceding teh knockdown. He was seeing a battered Taylor wobble under the punishment and started to get close. After the KD he clearly looks intensely at Taylor's eyes (Taylor is still unsteady on his feet) and asks him if he's OK..at that moment Taylor looks away (usually a sign that he isn't)...and Steele had no choice.

What's MORE telling..which no one besides myself seems to have noticed...is that Chavez celebrated the moment Taylor looked away, a moment before Steele actually calls it. This tells me that Chavez himself took that look away as an indicator that Taylor didn't want to continue.

Look at it again closely (all of you) and see what I'm saying..

 

I know,it's rare on these forums isn't it :: Fight, fight, fight to the bitter death whether you give a shit about your position or not.

Really, if I watch it again I dunno what way I'll come down though. And in the end....I think Chavez would have been more robbed by a decision loss than Taylor was by a stoppage loss. That doesn't make the call the right one but it makes it very easy for me to live with.:dunno:

 

bottomline is this:

The controversy is because of how much time was left. And I understand that. But had the same thing happened with 1 minute left of the fight...everyone would agree that it was a good call. If you're hurt, dropped and get up on unsteady legs and you don't respond to the ref's questions but rather look away from him....if the ref doesn't stop it there and then, he'd be incompetent.

 

There's perhaps half a second between the question being asked and Steele waving it off. I think if that'd happened earlier in the fight people would have kicked up about it too. No time to respond, whatsoever, literally none. and judging by his reaction when he saw Steele wave it off he was more than capable of saying yes and walking forward if he'd been given the opportunity.

 

But again, it's a perverse and unique instance where a wrong, unethically motivated call granted the moral victor the W.

 

exactly, Sly

 

he was asked twice and he looked at Lou Duva

 

Why was Steele in such a rush? Chill, spaz.

 

:giggle:

 

I don't really care for either fighter, so I have no bias - but especially after rewatching that end round, Taylor was flat out robbed.

Steele waved it off literally like a SECOND after asking Taylor if he was OK. Is that normal? No it isn't. Usually a ref makes damn sure, asks a few times over the course of a few seconds, especially if it's a significant fight, and said fighter is winning, and it's the 12th round, with 2 seconds left ::

Taylor looked fine, he didn't look so fucked he couldn't defend himself for another 2 seconds, or however long.

Chavez was given a gift basically, that should be a loss on his record.

 

C'mon man. He had that idiot (presumably) doing a red faced Indian rain dance on the apron for his attention, in an unimaginable din of screams. You get the guy to walk forward and have a look at him before you stop it or a least give him more tha .5 of a second between him actually hearing your question and you waving it off. Unless you're deliberately trying to get the wave in before the bell.

Lou Duva is a fucking moron. Sit down and let your fighter deal with the count you beetroot.

 

Man, that's DUVA'S fault then, not Steele's

to me, a ref asks a guy two damn times if he's ok and the dude looks in another direction, the ref is doing his job stopping that fight... Steele has his back to Duva, he doesn't see him there and you know what? it isn't his concern to see Duva or acknowledge Duva in any way... he has to look at the fighter

Steele shouted the question into Taylor's face, looking directly at him... Taylor looked at Duva... That is on DUVA primarily and Taylor secondarily

Steele isn't responsible for Duva, he's responsible for Taylor... He sees a guy with a puffed up face looking in another direction, not even acknowledging him or his question and he makes a call that a ref oughta make... "this guy is out of it, the fights over"

 

Well said

 

from the other thread -


How long do you think a fighter should have to respond before the referee waves off the fight? Do you think it's appropriate for the referee to start asking the fighter if he's ok, then start waving off the fight, all within ONE SECOND? Do you think it's just a huge coincidence that Steele seemed to be in an awful hurry to stop the fight, and there were less than 10 seconds left in the fight at that point? Do you think Taylor, given how he was like "WTF?" after the fight was called, was really not in a condition to continue.. for another 5 seconds?

One of the judges had their card going in favor of Chavez. What do you think that means? Is it really implausible that the ref was in DKP's pocket along with the judge?

Steele's motivation for making the call is relevant, even if you try to insist it's not - I can't imagine any honest referee calling that fight. The justification for it was created in retrospect to fit Richard Steele's actions and to further lionize Chavez, when in reality if the fight hadn't been called, it would have never occurred to any of the same people defending Steele's decision to complain that he hadn't stopped the fight. As I said, there would've been the usual "if it'd been 15 rounds.." but NOBODY would have said Steele should have stopped that fight, because except as a retroactive justification, the action makes 0 sense and is completely counterintuitive.

 

Timeline
0:17 Taylor is down
0:11 Taylor is up
0:07 Steele finishes count
0:05 Taylor still has both hands on the ropes holding himself up as Steele asks him a second time if he's ok
0:04 Steele waves the fight, Taylor still has both hands on the ropes

Steele seemed legitimately concerned and possibly even SCARED about Taylor's condition. Most likely he did not know the round clock was that closed to being finished. With Taylor going down well before the 10 second mark, and the ensuing noise and drama he probably didn't even notice the end of round warning and there could have been another 30 seconds left for all he knew, never mind the fact that he is a referee and not a timekeeper, and his only job is to make a fair fight and stop it if a fighter looks in serious danger, as did Taylor.

 

This fight is a nice contrast to Bute/Andrade 1.

NONE of you bitching about Steele better have bitched about Marlon Wright in that fight.

After a knockdown the ref is supposed to assess if a fighter can continue. Steele determined that Taylor could not continue. I do not believe there is a minimum amount of time he is supposed to take to make that assessment. He asked a question twice and Taylor stared off into la la land and got TKO'd. If Steele had let him continue, it appears to mE that Chavez could have very well laid him out with the next punch. And because there was time remaining in the fight, Chavez very well could have done that.

Otoh, there was NOTHING that Andrade could have done to put Bute's health at risk after Bute stood up because the round was over. I would say that so long as Bute remained upright after he stood up, the ref could NOT have stopped the fight and made Andrade the winner. He either had to stop it when Bute was down or (thinking Judah/Tszyu, Tyson/Berbick) if it had happened, when Bute fell back down prior to reaching a 10 count.

 

Or take another case, Vargas-Tito Rd 12. On the second KD Vargas was hurt bad. But he still got up in time, stood in front of the ref, and went on to take a totally unnecessary fight finishing and brain damaging combo. Almost everyone agrees that Nady should have stopped it right there., and is an idiot for letting him continue.

Now compare Vargas standing in front of Nady to Taylor in front of Steele. Vargas looks better.

 

We are in a long stretch of relative safety in fighting sports...no one seems to die in boxing anymore and no one seems to die in mma, at all.

But, that said, I still agree with you. The extra shit Vargas took was not good for him long term and he was better off than Taylor appeared. And Chavez would have (surely could have) delivered long term damage in the remaining seconds.

 

How so?

 

no.

He wouldn't have made it across the ring in 2 seconds.

 

agreed, thats ridiculous nonsense

it would take a good two seconds to get near Taylor, much less hit him again