Is there any way Klitshkos could become ATGs?

Chances are that this turns into another pissing match, but I would like to hear your views.

I believe most of you do not rank Klitshkos as all-time great heavyweights (personally I am on the fence). Is there any way that they could yet become such and if so, what would need to happen? For how long would they have to reign, who should they fight, what would do the trick? Or is it impossible already (because of Wlad's KO losses and Vitali's weak resume or some other reason)?

 

No chance.

 

There's now way it could happen. There have been grossly inferior heavyweight "greats" before them, of course. Part of the problem is the word "great" and what it means, how it is interpreted.

That said, Wlad has made great progress, 10 years ago he couldn't get mentioned in the same sentence as Roy Jones Junior. :wack:

 

He still can't.

 

Elaborate, please

 

I know. Scripps can only discuss so many people at any one time.:kick:

 

He doesn't do that.....he doesn't like counters. Call him the Bernard of the forums, which figures.

 

Derpends on how you look at it

If you accept that boxing, particularly above say Junior Featherweight, has in fact taken a giant nosedive that started to happen in the 1990s, than you need to figure that in to things when ranking pretty much anybody

If you are a big believer in the super space-age athlete theory, I'm sure you can unironically make statements like "Arthur Abraham KO6 Bob Foster" and still sleep at night

Or, if you are a subscriber to the "Eastern bloc countries suddenly got really good at boxing despite having essentially the same level of participation as they ever did" you will likely have The Klits at 1 and 2 respectively

Personally, I give them the credit of being the best in the worst era for boxing since John L. Sullivan

I also give them a good chance to defeat guys from 1940 that they are half a foot and 60 pounds larger than... good for them, but it is essentially meaningless... Neither guy is a better fighter than Joe Louis, nothing can change that... they have monstrous size advantages over him, big deal... Louis is a cruiserweight today

 

Anyone who thinks that Wlad Klitschko belongs in the same paragraph as Roy Jones doesn't know anything about boxing

 

Discounting their size is a red-herring. Their size is their size and that is that. Discounting their size is like discounting Ali's movement or hand-speed. Its a physical characteristic, it is there, and that is all about it.

 

Roy Jones thinks they belong in the same paragraph as Roy Jones.

He likes them!!! :bears:

Fuck it, he even said that Vitali had shown him some things in the Williams fight!!!

No fighter, no contemporary of Roys, threw the lead left hook like Wlad did. He doubled it and trippled it too. Even Reed said it was "Roy-Esque".

 

nonsense

not if you are comparing them to a cruiserweight (Louis)

Ali, 1960s vintage, dances rings around either guy and he knocks Wlad out

Mike Tyson lands at will on Vitali and he knocks Wlad into next year

I think Wlad is absolute SHIT... I don't care how nicely he throws a left hook, he is not a real fighter... he has no chin, he is a wimp, made of wet tissue paper... In a real fight with 195 pound Joe Louis, his size is ALL HE HAS... he STILL might lose, even with a 60 pound, 6 inch advantage

Vitali, I have some respect for... he's godawful technically but he's tough and game and has a fighter's heart... I still think he's no better than a contender in an era with some actually skillful heavyweights of even moderate size (200-220) ... Wlad, in the same era, is a hype job and gets chin-checked into irrelevancy eventually... he SUCKS

Between them, they have faced some of the most dreadful competition that could ever be conceived, horrendous fighters, old names who should have been retired literally 10 years ago...

Right now, they probably decision Evander Holyfield, maybe stop him very late... RIGHT NOW Holyfield, almost 50 Holyfield... that is pathetic

 

Hard to see it being the sad state of the current heavyweight division.

They may end up getting more respect many years after their retirement somewhat like Larry Holmes.

 

No. We don't have handspeed and footspeed divisions.

The Klitschkos are not and never will be remotely close to being in the same stratum as a Roy Jones Jr.

 

::

Yet we have heavyweights who only win fights because of their size. Size being, as you see it, something of an irrelevancy?????

 

Nah. You got your House of Hebron pulling the strings.

 

My point is that size as an attribute is not comparable to handspeed or footspeed. I'm not sure what you're reading.

 

What is the difference?

 

One is size and the other is not size.

 

..

 

Size is an attribute when you can't hurt a guy because he is bigger, or because he is hurting you because he is bigger. Size is an attribute of specific application in a martial, physical scenario. Imagine me being punched in the skull by a 250lb man with a stellar amateur background and consoling myself, as I slip into unconsciousness, with silly notions about how his size doesn't matter or how if he and I were the same size I would kick his ass. My dying words could be "pound for pound yo I beat him yo" :shit:

The "Klit only wins cos of his size" is bullshit. If he was 6' and 215 he would have a totally different set attributes to replace the ones he just lost. The fucker may well be fast as hell, have a better chin {shorter, stronger muscles, thicker neck etc} and be better conditioned at the weight. He would be more fluid and loose.

It's bogus. You cannot rip away one set of physical characteristics without replacing them with something else.

Energy cannot be created or destroyed. Merely changed.

 

And size has no use in a fight. Confucious Say...."When confronted by Size, use Pound-for-Pound style to overcome physical reality"

 

ridiculous

Vitali > SRR?

if you are desperate, sure

 

::

Its like saying....."The only reason anyone gets any credit for climbing Everest is cos its so fucking high"

::

Its high. And thats all about it. :nono:

 

I can't understand how you reached the conclusion that I said size doesn't matter from what I said. You have a habit of seeing the argument you want to refute, even if it was never made. Either that, or it's just that you're not very bright.

Yep. Look at how fast Wlad is now, just imagine how FAST he'd be if he were 147. He wouldn't be worse if you took away his size, he would in fact, be BETTER. He'd be better than Sugar Ray Robinson at 147. At 135, Duran would be NO CONTEST for him.

This leads down the path to contradicting the useless and unnecessary point you made in the previous paragraph, but that isn't really surprising.

This is beyond stupid.

 

They need to challange Muhammed Ali. Sure Ali might be a bit past it but having that name on their resume would do wonders to their ATG status.

 

SRR isn't a heavyweight, in fairness.

 

Only with people I can have a real conversation with. You've proven time and time again you're not on that level. Would be a waste of time.

 

that's not my point

if size doesn't matter than that means David Haye is a better fighter than Erik Morales because he would kill him

 

@ the End of the Day, the Klitschko's DOMINATED the Post-Lennox Lewis Era of Boxing...In THAT Sense, they're ALREADY "All Time Greats"...All U Can REALISTICALLY Ask of a Fighter is that he DOMINATE his Particular Era...

The PROBLEM Is, the Klitschko's R a 2-Headed Monster...From Day 1, they Spoke of Ruling the Heavyweight Division TOGETHER...Mission Accomplished...By the Same Token, this Divisional GangBang of theirs will HURT their BOXING Legacies...We Simply DON'T Know who "The MAN" Is & we Never Will...Knowing Who "The MEN" R Isn't Nearly as Interesting or Praiseworthy....

The BEST Thing for the Klits, their Division AND their Places in History is for them to Fight Each Other...



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