Heavyweight division officialy dead

you've got nothing, man

come to this country and ask a bunch of random people about boxing... the guys my age will say "I know Tyson and Holyfield" ... the younger guys might say Tyson or they will say UFC or they will say "I don't watch it, it's all fixed" ... I mean, COMPLETE ignorance of any of it

A guy in his 40s will say "I really liked Sugar Ray Leonard"

The Klitschkos are a non-issue here, nobody can hate them because nobody cares that they exist in the first place

Guys on here get all fired up that boxing is still going strong because "1 million people watched Floyd versus whomever" ... 1 million people is a fucking DROP OF WATER in the ocean... you had easily that many people (probably closer to 2) tuning into NBC in 1984 to watch Frank "The Animal" Fletcher fight on a saturday afternoon... and that's a guy only hardcore fans would know about... a fighter of Floyd-like status in those days not only draws 5 times as many viewers for a fight, even on closed-circuit/PPV but he's written about on the fornt pages of every sports section in America, probably makes the cover of several magazines and your grandmother knows who he is

The surest signal to anyone stupid enough to think that boxing is doing real well here and is considered a relevant thing: Kelly Pavlik, a WHITE KID FROM OHIO, was THE UNDISPUTED MIDDLEWIEGHT CHAMPION OF THE WORLD... the same title that Marvin Hagler once held... and NOBODY knows who the fuck Kelly Pavlik is... NOBODY

Can you imagine how fucking famous a WHITE KID would have been in 1986 if he won the undisputed title??? My god, Ray Mancini was a fucking household name for winning HALF of the lightweight title (a division watched at that time by about half as many people) in 1981... today, people would say "Ray who?"

 

I think Vitali is an entertaining fighter. His brother, not so much. All you have to do is consider the Lewis fight, in which Vitali had in front of him a fighter who was a worthy challenger. It was an awesome fight. And so I think Vitali's problem is nobody can legitimately challenge him, and so his fights are not exciting. But it's not because he's a boring fighter.

In his brother's case, it wouldn't matter if he were facing someone who could legitimately challenge him or not: he'd be boring. In fact, against a real threat, he's be even more boring than usual because he would hold a lot more.

I don't understand frankly the general concensus that Wlad is better than Vitali. I don't see it.

 

the point is that you are projecting the opinions of FOUR FUCKING GUYS onto an entire country and onto EVERY PERSON ON THIS SITE WHO DOES NOT HAIL FROM SOMEWHERE OTHER THAN AMERICA OR ENGLAND

you do it constantly

 

I don't get it either

I think people see Wlad's punching technique or his more traditional defense and just say "he's better!" but in every other facet of the game, Vitali is superior and it's not close

 

Listen........the American press hates the Klitschkos. Dress that up any way you want after that. I know America a bit better than you are prepared to give me credit for mate.

 

What you're missing is that anyone here who does hate the Klitschkos doesn't hate them for not being American. They hate them because they're boring. This isn't Germany.. If Sven Ottke had been born here, he wouldn't have been able to pack a walk-in closet, let alone a stadium.

 

Boom.

Let me tell you something....Max Kellerman was out for Wladimir as early as 1998. For the next 4 years, Wlad was probably as entertaining a fighter as you get, without being Arturo Gatti or Sugar Ray Robinson.

You got a guy like Vitali, he was dogged on for quitting. He hadn't even gotten around to being boring, and they were putting him down.

 

if you think america is spoken for by 4 or 5 sportswriters, then you don't know a thing

 

Thats weak mate. You show me 5 sports-writers of equal standing who swing in the exact opposite direction. America only has one President and we know half the people voted for him.

 

fuck off

you apply the opinions of THOSE GUYS to everyone on here who doesn't love the Klitschkos

thats why people are so aggravated by you and your bullshit on this topic

I mean, when you are willing to go far enough to make 2010 Shannon Briggs look like a great win, why would you expect anyone to think you are coming from a place of objectivity?

 

Hey Irish, do all Irish sportswriters speak for you??

I'll assume you are weak-minded and incapable of an independent viewpoint the same way you insult those of us here by painting us as begging for table scraps at Max Kellerman's table

that's the issue... according to you, everybody (EXCEPT YOU AND KAUKI) is unable to form an opinion without the help of a boxing writer

 

Maybe they are of the opinion I am - the brothers arent especially good fighters, yet they ARE especially dominant. An as is so often the case, the simplest answer is the right one. They are dominating guys I could beat.

 

I never did that.

 

Again, lets say that was that. Leave it at that.

But no.

It runs like a pair of cheap nylons.

 

I've never got the people who say Wlad is better than Vitali either. Its weird. They're weird.

Get out of here with that better technique bollocks. Compare common opponents. Outside of the Byrd aberration, Vitali has consistently beaten fighters who also fought Wlad in better fashion. He's even beaten the fuck out of two guys who stopped his brother, yet that counts for nothing because Wlad has better technique? Fuck off. Results speak for themselves.

 

Let hate into you heart.

 

wow, never pegged you for completely bat shit crazy. You would not stand a chance against any of the guys they beat, ever.

 

He wasn't be serious, just trying to say the competition was/is shit.

 

Well he's getting a little carried away. His Klitschko hate has reached new levels.

 

I don't mind hate, as such. I can understand why Kellerman would hate the Klitschkos. Jack London hated Jack Johnson- but he found it in him to praise him as a Champion.

 

You dont suppose someone may be unimpressed, as opposed to hating someone.

Thats a facile view of things. To suggest Im batshit crazy forsaying the Klitschkos dominance is down to the worst competition in history? Please.

 

True Cooky,.. overall that's true.

Regarding styles,.. I think Wlad is better at dealing with quick little heavyweights better than Vitali, ...but not much else really.

 

Why are you guys giving this delusional psychopath Irish the time of day here?

Always shocked when people take him seriously.

 

Good post, but a complete waste of time. Irish won't go anywhere near this.

 

I agree with the people that rate Vitali over Wlad. I think his combination of chin and effectiveness make him the tougher guy to beat, and also that little bit of extra size doesn't hurt. I think Wlad could have been rated above Vitali in his pre-Sanders days, before he became the frightened lamb he is in the ring now.

 

I've gone "near" each of its constituent points a million times over in a million different threads.

How does one show "No interest" in a guy....and write an article about him every other week??

How does one find a guy "boring"........and feel the need to question his place in history, at the same time......every other week.

????

C's answer is the same everytime....."Oh, Kellerman/Matthews/Mitchell/Smith/Atlas/Farhood/Arum/King etc don't speak for me, don't speak for America".....yeah, sure OK, way to miss the point.

How boring was Vitali in the late 1990's??? By rights, Wladimir should have at least gotten, from 1998-2005, the same credit Gatti was getting, as a rock-em-sock-em-never-in-a-boring-fight kind of guy. Instead the vitriol increased 10 fold after he managed to get past Peter in what was a very decent affair. It was probably one of the best 12 round non-title fights of that year. You have to ask yourself....guy just comes through a major gut-check that nobody expected him to pass....finishes strong....and people hate him more???

Yeah. Ok. I'll put that down to him being BORING. It's not that you'd prefer he lost and disappeared or anything. Its all because he's.....<STRIKE>White</STRIKE> <STRIKE>Not American</STRIKE> <STRIKE>A guy we all predicted would lose and be gone like 10 years ago and now he's making us look fucking stupid</STRIKE> ............boring.

He then blew away Chris Byrd in what was a very very decent offensive showing. Boring. Boring. Chris Byrd looked bored. As in drilled.

If you want, you can piss and moan about the competition. But very few of those fights were "Boring".

 

Fuck they aren't. A few non-Americans slip through the nationalism, but they are easily identifiable as exceptions. Which is why the sport is less popular in the us right now--not because the quality has gone down, but because the American quality has gone down.

[edit] I see your point better now and I don't think it adds much? You are just saying that Americans hate some Americans along with most foreigners, right?

 

Well technically, you actually said YOU could beat these guys, which is a little out of touch with reality to say the least.

Carry on though.

 

Why would the 80's be better than today's division?
Wlad and Vitali are both better than Holmes.
And the remaining guys all compare evenly or better to Witherspoon, Berbick, Cooney, and all of the others who traded titles.

Or when Marciano fought? Or Louis?

 

Yep.