1981 compared to 2011

The Sosa fight was at 171, I thought it was at 170. But Roy was fighting at 168 when he said it. And anyone concerned about getting knocked down by Sosa should be resigned to getting knocked down by Dariusz, Benn, Collins, and McClellan. It was completely in context.

I never said jack about Delvalle? That's out of context. I don't know why you even mention him?

 

As I remember, Collins retired because he couldn't get a match with Roy. He called him out before retiring. It wasn't like there was a mandate for the fight from the public, but it just falls in line with Roy carefully choosing his opponents and never, ever leaving the US. (I think Collins was back in the UK by this time.)

 

I can't name many Russians who have had much success as of the last few years.

 

<TABLE align=center><TBODY><TR><TD>1</TD><TD>Denis Lebedev</TD><TD>497</TD><TD class=c>22(17)-1-0</TD><TD align=right><TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=l></TD><TD class=w></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD><TD class=c>2001</TD><TD class=c>32</TD><TD>southpaw</TD><TD>Chekhov, Russia</TD><TD class=right></TD></TR><TR><TD class=left></TD><TD>2</TD><TD>Alexander Povetkin</TD><TD>452</TD><TD class=c>22(15)-0-0</TD><TD align=right><TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD><TD class=c>2005</TD><TD class=c>32</TD><TD>orthodox</TD><TD>Chekhov, Russia</TD><TD class=right></TD></TR><TR><TD class=left></TD><TD>3</TD><TD>Dmitry Pirog</TD><TD>402</TD><TD class=c>19(15)-0-0</TD><TD align=right><TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD><TD class=c>2005</TD><TD class=c>31</TD><TD>orthodox</TD><TD>Gelendzhik, Russia</TD><TD class=right></TD></TR><TR><TD class=left></TD><TD>4</TD><TD>Dmitry Sukhotsky</TD><TD>264</TD><TD class=c>18(13)-1-0</TD><TD align=right><TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD class=w></TD><TD class=l></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD><TD class=c>2005</TD><TD class=c>30</TD><TD>orthodox</TD><TD>Barnaul, Russia</TD><TD class=right></TD></TR><TR><TD class=left></TD><TD>5</TD><TD>Zaurbek Baysangurov</TD><TD>259</TD><TD class=c>26(20)-1(1)-0</TD><TD align=right><TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD><TD class=c>2004</TD><TD class=c>26</TD><TD>orthodox</TD><TD>Achkhoy-Martan, Russia</TD><TD class=right></TD></TR><TR><TD class=left></TD><TD>6</TD><TD>Denis Shafikov</TD><TD>220</TD><TD class=c>27(16)-0-1</TD><TD align=right><TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=d></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD><TD class=c>2003</TD><TD class=c>26</TD><TD>southpaw</TD><TD>Miass, Russia</TD><TD class=right></TD></TR><TR><TD class=left></TD><TD>7</TD><TD>Alexander Ustinov</TD><TD>207</TD><TD class=c>24(19)-0-0</TD><TD align=right><TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD><TD class=c>2005</TD><TD class=c>34</TD><TD>orthodox</TD><TD>Minsk, Belarus</TD><TD class=right></TD></TR><TR><TD class=left></TD><TD>8</TD><TD>Alexander Alexeev</TD><TD>200</TD><TD class=c>21(19)-2(2)-0</TD><TD align=right><TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=l></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD><TD class=c>2006</TD><TD class=c>30</TD><TD>southpaw</TD><TD>Hamburg, Germany</TD><TD class=right></TD></TR><TR><TD class=left></TD><TD>9</TD><TD>Denis Boytsov</TD><TD>199</TD><TD class=c>29(24)-0-0</TD><TD align=right><TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD><TD class=c>2004</TD><TD class=c>25</TD><TD>orthodox</TD><TD>Hamburg, Germany</TD><TD class=right></TD></TR><TR><TD class=left></TD><TD>10</TD><TD>Ruslan Provodnikov</TD><TD>187</TD><TD class=c>19(13)-1-0</TD><TD align=right><TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=l></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD><TD class=c>2006</TD><TD class=c>27</TD><TD>orthodox</TD><TD>Ekaterinburg, Russia</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

and

<TABLE align=center><TBODY><TR><TD>11</TD><TD>Matt Korobov</TD><TD>162</TD><TD class=c>16(9)-0-0</TD><TD align=right><TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD><TD class=c>2008</TD><TD class=c>28</TD><TD>southpaw</TD><TD>Saint Petersburg, Florida, United States</TD><TD class=right></TD></TR><TR><TD class=left></TD><TD>12</TD><TD>Roman Karmazin</TD><TD>150</TD><TD class=c>40(26)-5(3)-2</TD><TD align=right><TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=d></TD><TD class=l></TD><TD class=l></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD><TD class=c>1996</TD><TD class=c>38</TD><TD>orthodox</TD><TD>Los Angeles, California, United States</TD><TD class=right></TD></TR><TR><TD class=left></TD><TD>13</TD><TD>Rakhim Chakhkiev</TD><TD>135</TD><TD class=c>11(9)-0-0</TD><TD align=right><TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD><TD class=c>2009</TD><TD class=c>28</TD><TD>southpaw</TD><TD>Hamburg, Germany</TD><TD class=right></TD></TR><TR><TD class=left></TD><TD>14</TD><TD>Roman Seliverstov</TD><TD>134</TD><TD class=c>13(3)-8-0</TD><TD align=right><TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD class=l></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD><TD class=c>2003</TD><TD class=c>35</TD><TD>orthodox</TD><TD>Kolomna, Russia</TD><TD class=right></TD></TR><TR><TD class=left></TD><TD>15</TD><TD>Alexander Bakhtin</TD><TD>134</TD><TD class=c>27(11)-0-0</TD><TD align=right><TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD><TD class=c>2000</TD><TD class=c>30</TD><TD>orthodox</TD><TD>Balashikha, Russia</TD><TD class=right></TD></TR><TR><TD class=left></TD><TD>16</TD><TD>Khabib Allakhverdiev</TD><TD>133</TD><TD class=c>15(6)-0-0</TD><TD align=right><TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD><TD class=c>2007</TD><TD class=c>28</TD><TD>southpaw</TD><TD>Derbent, Russia</TD><TD class=right></TD></TR><TR><TD class=left></TD><TD>17</TD><TD>Grigory Drozd</TD><TD>132</TD><TD class=c>33(23)-1(1)-0</TD><TD align=right><TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD><TD class=c>2001</TD><TD class=c>32</TD><TD>orthodox</TD><TD>Moscow, Russia</TD><TD class=right></TD></TR><TR><TD class=left></TD><TD>18</TD><TD>Alexander Kotlobay</TD><TD>126</TD><TD class=c>20(14)-2(1)-1</TD><TD align=right><TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=l></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD><TD class=c>2004</TD><TD class=c>31</TD><TD>orthodox</TD><TD>Saint Petersburg, Russia</TD><TD class=right></TD></TR><TR><TD class=left></TD><TD>19</TD><TD>Anton Novikov</TD><TD>125</TD><TD class=c>22(8)-0-0</TD><TD align=right><TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD><TD class=c>2006</TD><TD class=c>23</TD><TD>southpaw</TD><TD>Kopeysk, Russia</TD><TD class=right></TD></TR><TR><TD class=left></TD><TD>20</TD><TD>Valery Brudov</TD><TD>116</TD><TD class=c>39(28)-3(1)-0</TD><TD align=right><TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=w></TD><TD class=l></TD><TD class=w></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD><TD class=c>1999</TD><TD class=c>34</TD><TD>orthodox</TD><TD>Pskov, Russia</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

Seems like boxrec needs to fix the quirk in their program re Roman Seliverstov at #13, haha

 

What did they win??? Lebedev just got beat by Hook in Germany. Pirog won the WBO title and has done squat since. Provodnikov got his handsome Siberian features bust. Alexander Alexeev got beaten up by the aforementioned Lebedev.

 

What have any of these guys done???? Korobov?

Karmazin...good fighter, flawed, but I will forever be grateful for the job he did on Ouma.

 

:dunno:the fuck?

 

I didn't put it up there and say you were wrong, I put it up there to see if you were right. And it is thin for Russia.

Of course Americans tend to think of Russia as anyone from the USSR and that would open it up to a lot more fighters. And then I would say you were wrong. But Russia looks thin by itself these days. Of course, they have at least one heavyweight who is better than any of the USA's athletes so it could be worse.

 

Ah, Ok, thanks.

Karmazin was decent. Povetkin is OK. Pirog made some noise but is already in his 30's. Provodnikov got bustikov. Boytsov is a doorman. I bet he owns a leather jacket, a Mercedes and a collection of powerful Colognes.

 

Well, that is certainly true to an extent but Watson hadn't even fought Eubanks by the time he fought Mike and he'd been out for near enough a year through injury prior to that fight. Not saying it makes much difference to the result, but the Watson of that fight certainly wasn't the best version of Watson.

MTF

 

Sorry, but I totally disagree.

MTF

 

McClellan beat Jones as an ammy and was due to unify against Jones after he pummelled Benn (or so the plan went) which may or may not be important I suppose. Collins beat a completely finished Benn and a nearly finished Eubanks; the latter having a great chance to finish Collins off in the first fight (round nine I think? :dunno:) but who backed off as a result of the Watson ending.

The only really common opponent to any of the Brits/Non Brits is McCallum, a HOF-er who beat an inactive Watson and a very green Collins. Nunn is the single most overrated fighter on this board IMO and Toney isn't that far behind. None of the UK fighters beat Jones Jr at 160 or 168.

MTF

 

Watson & Collins both lost to Kalamby & Reggie Johnson respectively who 'cross pollinated' with the US scene, if you like. As Middleweights all results went unfavourably, though Eubank, Collins & Benn all proved as comfortable at 168 as 160.

I'm not trying to denigrate the UK scene there......i can't even remember how this argument started. But I do think the US middleweights of the early 90s were a shade better. Spectacularly deep division, either way.

 

You think Eubank/Benn/Collins > Ward/Froch/Bute/Kessler, yeah?

 

Ward is better than all those guys - not much to choose between the rest.

 

::

Steve, thats the sort of thing that the Bumfuck Alliance on "Boxing4Real" would say.

 

Ward is better than the other 2011 guys. We'll never be able to prove it, but I bet he's better than Eubank, Benn and Collins too.

 

Yes but McClellan was supposed to be better than Benn too, as were Barkley and DeWitt etc.

 

That's fair. And Benn might have cracked Ward, too. But throw them in the ring with 20 elite fighters and I'd say Ward probably gets more wins.

 

No big. I'm not especially surprised. And some wonder why I don't post much these days. ::

Cdogg's prediction for the topic was spot on. As for me...I figured this topic would either end up in the shitter or off on some way off-topic tangent. And it ended up being equal parts of both.

And...if I wanted to compare Super middles from the middle 90's to now I would have started that topic instead.

I really don't have much more to say in this one. And I'm not especially interested in reading any more of Irish's attempts to double-talk and grade eras on a curve to reduce the current suckiness of the sport. And I'm even less interested in seeing any more of the usual drivel from Jaws, Stafford or Neil.

I haven't seen anything posted here that would make me reconsider how much better it was when I was a young fan than it is now. It was a great time to be a fan and I wish more folks were able to see it as it all happened.

R.I.P. this topic. ::

Oh, well...I'll let you all get back to discussing the Super Middles and Mike's latest batch of meaningless stats.

Have a good night.

 

^^ this guy cant be serious?

what type of responses would one expect, starting such a topic?

"golly gee broadway joe, youre right! I never really looked at it in this light, there were better fighters at that time than there are now! "

real debate stirrer, this one.

 

Seriously, you don't start a discussion topic only to get pissy when others argue or dismiss your points. Why on earth was the topic even started if any form of disagreement was going to be summarily dismissed as off the point or agenda-driven? :notallthere:

 

Unquestionably. Bute has fought absolutely no-one and is IMO crap: he should have lost to Andrade FFS. Froch is as durable as hell but Benn would have knocked him out and Eubanks beats him by decision eight times out of ten IMO. Kessler has proven too one dimensional against the best and might lose for all three. The best one is probably Ward, but he hasn't done enough yet to say for sure what would happen.

168 is arguably the best division in boxing right now but the quality there isn't all that- it is good because there are about eight or nine blokes of roughly the same ability who are fighting each other regularly. I mean, I am one of Froch's biggest fan's, but the guys is seriously limited- he gets by on heart and big brass balls most of the time. What good is that against a bloke like Benn? This isn't some Andrade or Miranda type here- you stick Froch, with his hands low, no-defence style in front of Nigel Benn and he gets ICED.

MTF

 

Watson lost to McCallum and Eubanks. He never fought either Kalambay or Johnson. Collins did, and lost to both, but I always felt Collins the weakest of the Brit 168lb-ers who came along at a time when the others were shells of themselves.

MTF

 

Anti-Irish bigotryissed:issed:issed:























































::

 

From several pages back. I can see the point about champions and the absolute top of divisions being on different levels. However, I still maintain my point that the level of fights between #5-#10 contenders or so has not changed radically. For example I don't see a huge difference between Jerry Quarry and Ruslan Chagaev, or Eddie Machen and Eddie Chambers and so on. This might be untrue, but I actually believe this

 

well, you're wrong... so there

 

Right, but do you have a base of knowledge below heavyweight for these divisions?