Jermain Taylor vs Felix Trinidad @ 160

Who!?

I want names & addresses.

 

Me...and what of it? Not giving you my address though. ::

 

Scroll up a little ::

 

Gimme your top ten.

 

Monzon
Hagler
Robinson
Griffith
Hopkins

The above looks fine to me, pulled out my ass as it is.

 

1. Greb
2. Monzon
3. Robinson
4. Hagler
5. Steele
6. Ketchel
7. Flowers
8. Hopkins
9. Cerdan
10. Walker

 

You wuss ::

 

Ludicrous.

And then Stanley Ketchel, Freddie Steele and Tiger Flowers above Hopkins.

Dude...you've lost the plot.

 

So Hopkins' obvious talent (proved by still being competitive in his 40s and at 175lbs) combined with his dominant reign (20 defenses) doesn't count for much?

 

It counts for him being a top 5 middleweight of the last 70 years and ranking above the following:

McCallum
Tiger
Charles
Burely
Toney
Cerden
Giardello
Benvenutti
Jones
Lamotta
Kalambay
Zale


and so on. Frankly just about every guy mentioned proved their mettle against higher quality middleweights, but Hopkins longevity and dominance bring him up way above where wins over Tito and an off form Glenn Johnson warrant.

 

Anyway at least you have him top 5. I can live with that. ::

 

These are MW rankings, not all-encompassing rankings. What anyone did above or below MW isnt a factor.

 

A dominant reign of 20 defenses against the best possible opposition of his time is a factor though. Who else has done that?

 

Greb got more done in 1925 (a twilight year) than Hopkins did in ten years as MW king...and Im not talking hyperbole, Im speaking literally.

 

No one, and its a reason hes in my top-10 --- but there isnt one man on my list who wouldnt have done it all as well. The opposition was largely mediocre, when compared to the traditional depth of the 160lb. division.

 

Names usually seem mediocre when they are contemporary.

We all talk about Mustafa Hamsho, Bobby Watts, Willie Monroe, John Mugabi, Alan Minter now....but in the 80s when Hagler had just lost to Ray Leonard..the boxing magazines tore up his resume. Those names didn't seem that good then.

 

That doesnt refute how weak Hopkins' MW CV is though.

 

Bingo

 

He beat everyone that was available to him..except for Taylor...at the end of his reign. Many think he won both taylor fights anyway. Hagler at the end of his reign beat a former Welterweight that hadn't fought in 3 years. Shit happens.

Holmes reigned over a weak division...should he drop below 5 as a heavyweight too?

 

I wish Hopkins had been born 5-10 years earlier and we could have seen him mix with Nunn, Kalambay, McCallum, Toney, Collins, etc. The thing is, while he might well have won more than he lost, I can't honestly say I see him as above that level as a fighter (phenomenal longevity and discipline aside), which is why I have a slight problem with him being as high as 3, above guys like Robinson and Griffith who I think were definitively better at their best, even if they didn't achieve Hops longevity.

 

He's CERTAINLY a level above Kalambay and Collins. I agree that he's equivalent to Toney and Nunn. Toney and Nunn were also of equivalent ability to Hagler and Monzon though. Only bias would say otherwise. So it's Hopkins dominance and proven ability that puts him higher on the scale.

 

Has everyone seen this? Good stuff

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YxHSvwzOfI

Wont embed for some cunting reason.

 

That's a negatory, captain. More visually pleasing - which I love, in fact I'm all about it in fighters - but simply nowhere near as good.

Including Collins really muddied the water on that point, Collins is def a level below all those guys (I think that debate came up a couple weeks ago actually)

 

Look how pretty Ray's hair is after the fight! It takes me 12 rounds to get it presentable enough to leave the house some days.::

 

Visually impressive doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things

 

Which one of Hagler's challengers would Toney or Nunn not have beaten?

 

Nunn wasn't as good as Hagler, come on now!

 

Come on now...this is Michael "Second to" Nunn we're talking about. Guy was silky smooth with every boxing talent you can hope for.

 

For fuck's sake, Nunn is clear level below Hagler

 

It means I love watching them which means allot to me in the grand scheme of things.