Was it the 8th or the 9th round when...

Would you call Calzaghe and Pacquiao urban flashy fighters?

 

I'd say those are fighters who by comparison you are only mildly excited by. I'd also say that Calzaghe is to a large extent an urban flash fighter - at least he tries to be.

Pacquiao, I agree, is not.

 

Calzaghe is a bit flashy but not hippety hoppy enough.

 

Calzaghe is a weird one, he's pretty much an exact cross between an Urban Flash Fighter and a Country Arse Meat and Potatoes fighter.

 

word.

 

Would you call Hopkins "flashy"?

 

Not in the least. Hopkins is more of a stink-fighter - nothing flashy there.

 

Well I'm high on Hopkins too. I think he be ring scientist and shit. :rock1:

 

He's a dirty rotten scoundrel of a fighter. And if he's ever made to follow the rules, he won't be shit.

The guy is a hack. Grabbing his opponents this way and that, holding and hitting. Hopkins is a shameless stink fighter. And his PPV numbers demonstrate that.

I couldn't sit through Hopkins/Wright again if you paid me.

Once upon a time, and even then it wasn't the rule, Hopkins was a crafty fighter. Now he's just a good cheater.

 

Dude is Einstein between those ropes. I appreciate "the stink"...because he knows when and how to apply it and he knows how and when to not apply it and instead deliver a textbook artistic beatdown.

Tremendous fighter. Has every skill in and out of the rule book.

 

He's still a cunt though, and Calzaghe's better

 

The actual fight between them makes that inconclusive. It was a split decision...Calzaghe looked to more people to have won a close one but Hopkins was much older than Calzaghe. I'd say they have equivalent talent when speaking of them in their respective primes.

 

I didn't notice any real difference in the 8th or 9th rounds. What I did notice is that when Manny got overly aggressive and started getting up on his toes looking to throw in volume or to reach to force shots Marquez timed him coming in again and again.The 8th was a particularly good example of that. Manny knew he had to be patient and I think he adapted successfully.

I was impressed with Manny's performance actually, though it bodes badly for his chances of competing with Floyd.

 

It's the 9th round. This round stands apart from the rest for the following reasons:

1. Manny actually used foot-work to get off the line and make JMM find him; there's at least one instance of this in which JMM had to rotate nearly 120 degrees to find Pacquiao, to counter him. Needless to say he was unsuccessful.

2. Manny was throwing short shots. In the 9th, Manny threw some short shots from mid-distance that showed real promise. These contrasted significantly from the long over-hand shots he threw during the other rounds.

3. Manny looped his left-hand side-ways (as opposed to throwing it straight over-head). This showed promise as well, since JMM was obviously looking for the over-hand left. But Manny never went back to this punch, and hadn't thrown it prior to the 9th round either.

4. Manny threw more combinations! And though he was countered he honestly didn't seem affected by the counters and basically walked through them.

5. He showed in the 9th round a great deal more energy and speed. This was speed and energy not present in any previous round, and didn't show up again in subsequent rounds.

 

He certainly upped his work rate but it didn't really benefit him that much. He missed loads and it was just another close round.

Again, I think it's easy to be influenced by expectations - it happens to me all the time - it's what you wanna see him try and he finally does it and you project more success onto what you're seeing than it actually has.

 

I'm not talking about success. I'm talking about a fundmenatal shift in tactics and pace that lasted all of three minutes.

Either you noticed it or you didn't. I guess you didn't, which is surprising.

 

I already said he upped his volume. He clearly did.

I just said it didn't work very well so he wasn't motivated to continue with it. No conspiracy or lack of effort, the success Marquez had timing him coming in just made him consistently wary. And now he has the tools to have success without going balls to the wall like he had to in say the first fight (with much less success for 11 of 12 rounds).

I thought he won the fight.

 

Put it this way, I dont think the 9th was Manny's best round.

 

See, I think it was rounds 1-8 and 10-12 that most resembled the first fight. I thought in round 9 he employed many of the tactics he's since perfected, that he employed with success against guys like ODH and Cotto.

I agree with you - I thought he won the fight too. And I think most of the controversey is due to JMM's managing to perform better than expected and make it competitive, when most felt he would lose decisively.

Along with this, I think there's some controversey too due to the nature of the success JMM had - that he was able to counter-punch as successfully as he did. I think when a fighter gets countered there's a natural tendency to forget (or dismiss) anything he lands in the process. Counter-punching has a way of nullifying even the punches that land successfully.

I've heard people on this very board declare: even when Pacquiao landed successfully he got countered.

Well that goes both ways. Even when JMM was able to counter, he got hit in the face.

 

I thought it was an excellent fight. :mj:

 

That's VERY true, and is echoed in Musze's and many other opinions that Marquez landed the "cleaner" punches.

No, he didn't land cleaner punches, look at their faces afterwards and tell me who landed cleaner/harder. Manny didn't even look like he'd been in a fight.

Manny was landing clean every round, not flush, ever, but clean enough.

Marquez's shots weren't cleaner, they were more eye catching for no other reason than they were counters, catching Manny off guard.

 

He has slowed down a bit tough up to the previous fight he definitively has shown a lot more skills than before.

Also if you're going to mention Pacquiao slowing down please recognize that this 38 year old Marquez fighting far away from his best division and after taking more punishment than Pacquiao in their last fights has certainly slowed down. Quite more I would say.

It's incredible how Marquez managed to perform so well at this stage.

 

Don't disagree with any of that.

He has slowed down, but he has obviously improved technically, as Hut said - it's the first time he's been able to "box" with Marquez, rather than just launch unpredictable attacks and use aggression to win rounds.

And yeah Marquez has definitely slowed down too, and generally looks far less suited to 135+ than Pacquiao.

I agree it's incredible how well he performed at this weight, age 38. He fought remarkably well.

He kind of has Manny's number, but I knew that before the fight and still thought Manny would destroy him this time, so it is in large part testament to how well Marquez performed.