So who won? Pac or JMM?

Making your guy adapt isn't the same as winning, though

 

It can be. It's also called controlling the fight. One of the main goals it to take away the guys best attribute...which means attacking for Manny. Thus, it means marquez did something to negate or make Manny think twice about attacking him.

It's not like Marquez fought like Floyd did against baldomir...threw a counter here and there then looked to stay out of harms way.

 

What?





No, Manny landed more punches and harder punches.

You're seriously telling me you think Pacquiao looks more bashed up in these pics? ::

In fights 1 and 2 Manny's face looked much worse afterwards, where as Marquez's looked pretty much the same. Did the steroids help Pacquiao's face?

 

I guess you have a point. I think Manny won the first fight clear as day, clearer than fights 2 and 3, but that was largely down to the 10-6 first round.

He was far more patient and technical in this fight and he got hit much less as a reward.

A slower, more technical pace is the worst possible strategy against Floyd though.

 

i wouldn't be as concerned about how each guy looked after the fight as I would how each guy behaved. Manny came off as the loser. His body language before the decision was read...the two question limit after the fight....the growing list of excuses after the fight.

As much of an ass as David haye made of himself against Wlad, even HE didn't have the list of excuses Manny and camp have offered.

That's more telling to me.

 

(in my view anyway), those are just means towards achieving what wins you fights and that's landing the better leather. And I'd say it's dangerous to pay them too much attention while scoring too because it lets your own preconceptions about what each man 'wants' to do strategically colour the action.

 

I agree completely Musze, Pacquiao thought he lost, no question.

Doesn't mean much though.

Rampage Jackson thought he lost to Machida and let out a "WHAT??" when it was announced he was the winner, despite winning 2 of 3 rounds.

He probably thought he lost because of how disappointed he was in his performance, and how close the fight was. Like most of us, he probably thought he'd steamroll Marquez this time around.

 

Agreed.

I generally score fights for most punches landed, simple. That's really the most important factor isn't it? Both fighters are trying to hit each other, the fighter who lands more wins, barring a scenario where one fighter is landing MUCH harder punches and hurting the other guy and the other fighter is landing little slaps.

That's why I ended up scoring this for Pacquiao, and in most other instances I score the same way.

 

The problem I have with this line of thinking is this...

Manny's not throwing either. he's looking at Marquez just like Marquez is looking at him.

To use the reverse of the line of thought Marquez 'was doing better than expected" you have to ask, 'why?' there's a reason for it.

 

I think it means something to Manny.

The past few years he's virtually received universal love and praise...to hear the boos and to feel he lost (in his own mind) must be difficult for him to accept.

 

Oh yeah, of course, that must mean a fuck load to him. All I mean is it doesn't actually mean he lost the fight.

Even in the interview he tried to say he won clearly etc, but you could tell by his body language all along he felt he lost.

 

My line of thinking is simpler than any of those lines - I thought Manny landed more punches in more rounds (without Marquez' fewer punches being sufficiently more hurtful to balance that). I really don't ask any more questions than that when Im scoring. Interesting questions for the aftermath of the fight and for the trainers, but not while scoring.

Of course, the reason is that Marquez' excellent counter punching had made him very wary and cautious, but if he can land more/better shots during 7 rounds despite that he still wins.

Don't mean that to sound patronizing.....it's just the level of simplicity I operate on re: scoring.:scared2:

 

Like I said in a previous post I operate in the same way.

I like to keep things simple. If a guy lands more punches in a round, I'll give it to him, unless he gets hurt etc.

 

Just because Pacquiao was more aggressive doesn't mean he was controlling the fight,from what I saw he was fighting just to stay in the fight but by no means he was in control.Marquez did more of what he wanted to do than pacquiao did.

 

I feel bad for Marquez, he fought the perfect fight and still got the shaft.I hope he can move on and feel good about the majority of the people who saw the fight thought he won.

 

Considering he landed less punches than Pacquiao it was pretty far from "the perfect fight". He fought very, very well, but quite simply didn't do enough in most of the rounds.

 

T'was a tough fight to score overall. But as I said, I had in even a draw. 7-5 either way isn't a robbery. 8-4 is though.

 

A more appropriate poll question should be which fight did Juan win more clearly. The 2nd fight or the 3rd. For me the 3rd fight was the clearest Juan has won. Pacquaio is getting rewarded for inaffective aggression. Based on scoring criteria of; clean effective punching, effective aggression, defence, ring generalship, there is no way logical way Manny won the fight. Terrible scoring.

 

Based on more punches landed, he did win.

I agree it was tough to score Sly, I wouldn't complain with 7 to 5 Marquez.

Saying it's a robbery is absurd.

 

Marquez landed all the clean punches. Most of Pacs punches that landed Marquez was rolling with or slipping. Marquez was never hurt in the fight and Pacs power has proven to hurt him in the first 2 fights.

 

This.
I don't think we have ever agreed...

 

If Marquez landed all the clean punches then why does Marquez look like he's been beaten up and Pacquiao doesn't?





Neither fighter landed much impressive, but overall it was Manny who was landing the cleaner, harder shots. Marquez's shots were more eye catching because they were counters that took Manny off guard.

 

Are we really going by that?
How many fights have you seen where guys have won huge but look like they got their asses kicked?
Hell Wlad kicked the shit out of Ray Mercer but Wlad looked like he was mauled by a bear...even tho Ray landed like 30 punches...
The state of the face doesnt mean anything, do you watch MMA?
Did you see the St.Pierre - Shields fight?
Are you telling me Shields landed the more clean effective punches and won the fight?
Some people can't take the punishment on the face as well as others...
If Gatti was taking those same punches from Pacman he would have had both eyes closed...3 cuts and bled all over the place...

 

You keep saying he landed the harder shots...
I didn;t see that at all...
I saw Pacman stumbling around I saw Pacman getting moved, I saw Pacman hurt, numerous of times, never once did I see the same for Marquez, I dont call that landing the harder shots.

 

Do I have to explain again?

Neither guys are that easy or hard to mark up, in fights 1 and 2, their faces had a similar level of bruising etc, as you'd expect.

Pacquiao looked more bashed after fights 1 and 2, and Marquez looks kind of the same as he did after fight 2.

Unless Pacquiao is taking steroids to make his face more resilient, then Marquez didn't land the harder/cleaner shots.

If he did, Manny's face would look more bashed, as it did in fight 2 for example.

 

I don't think either one of them were hurt at all, and I don't think either fighter landed that flush.

When Manny landed clean, they were nice, thudding shots. Marquez's shots were a bit more slappy and had less meat on them.

You saw Pacman hurt numerous times? Like when?

 

Most rounds weren't hard to score, coz marquez won most of 'em.

 

I thought the DeGale/Groves fight was tougher to score

 

Groves Vs DeGale was easy to score, 9 - 3 Groves.

 

Actually, not only did Manny throw more punches, but he landed at a slightly higher rate than JMM as well.

Obviously, landed punches count and ones that don't land, don't count. And for this reason, punches landed is more important than punches thrown.

However, the plain fact is that discerning whether or not a punch landed is not a trivial task, and ultimately, it's subject to a lot of conjecture on the part of judges. And this is why punches thrown becomes a factor in the assessment of an outcome.

But in this case, it shouldn't even be introduced into the debate since besides throwing more punches, Manny also landed more.