Whos Greater Historically?

I don't rate it as this fucking astonishing achievement that vaults Pacquaio to top ten all-time status, no

I rate it as a good win

 

Pacquiao, Rather EASILY...

This Topic Evolved from the Mythical Matchups Forum, Where Pacquiao's Weight Jumping was Somehow Held AGAINST Him (Not Really Sure HOW it Could B Though)...Sure, there's Guys that have Won PAPER Titles in Multiple Weight Classes, but Let's B Real Here; Pacquiao's Won Titles in 8 Different Divisions!!!...Even if they were ALL Paper Titles (Which they Aren't), that's Still a RIDICULOUS Accomplishment...

112, 122, Linear Rights to 126, 130, 135, Linear Rights to 140, 147, 154...Yes, the 154 lb. "Title" was TRICKED UP & it was Shitty that Cotto had to Weigh 145 in Defense of HIS OWN Welterweight Title, but that SHOULDN'T Diminish Pac's Feats...After All, this Cat JUST Weighed like 143 for the 3rd Bout w/Marquez...He's a LITTLE Guy who Really had NOfuckingBUSINESS Winning a Belt Past 130-135...

REED Would Rather have a SEMBLANCE of a Claim to 8 Various Divisions than an Undisputed Claim to 1 Division...

Pac > Hagler


REED:Lok:

 

You Could Also Make a Case for Hagler Being a Better Middleweight than Henry Armstrong was as a Feather, Light & Welter...Doesn't Mean Hagler is Greater Historically Though....



REED:Lok:

 

Strong analogy.

 

You Make it Seem as if ANY Ol' Former Flyweight Could've Done what Pac Did, vs. the Likes of Hatton, Margarito or Cotto...Size MATTERS, Brother C-Doggy Dogg...There's a REASON we have Weight Classes...Should we Expect Ivan Calderon to Whip Brandon Rios w/the Greatest of EASE???...

Of Course Not...



REED:scared:

 

Great posts REED, I agree with all of them.

I'm pretty amazed at cdogg's and Hut's posts tbh.

Two logical guys, but I find their opinion on this to be highly illogical.

You're right, they're almost acting any good former flyweight could do this, when the fact is, weight divisions are there for a reason.

You get some guys who struggle mightily just moving up ONE division (or arguably half a division). What Pacquiao has done is insane, and it's not like it is against Klitschko level comp - Cotto and Hatton etc are good fighters, and although Plasterito is not a good fighter, he's fucking huge, more like a natural 154 pounder.

Let's see Donaire move up and fight Plasterito, see how well he does.

The more I think about it, the more I think it's downright insane the way Pac's weight transcending is starting to be taken for granted, now that people are used to it and the hype has really simmered down, and he's looked more ordinary 2 outings in a row.

I do place more gravitas on such extreme weight jumping rather than single weight dominance, because it's simply not meant to happen, boxing has weight classes for a reason. It's not uncommon to see excellent fighters lose to average ones purely because they're just a bit undersized.

 

The flyweight shit is BS. Pacquiao's last fight at flyweight was when he was 18.. a fight in which he got knocked out in, allegedly due to his being so drastically drained. He moved directly to 122 after that.

 

Hagler would be rated higher, historically.

 

Agreed.

 

Nope

 

Pac by quite a margin

 

Of course. But it just goes to show that you don't have to be a great fighter to make successful crazy weight hops, just have the right body type/style.

 

Well said.

Joe Louis was a more dominant Heavyweight than any other fighter in history was at their weight class.

Louis over Robinson?

 

Stand behind my rather salient Dingaan Thobela point.:mj:

 

If you thought Louis was a better heavyweight than Robinson was welterweight that would be the logical position, yeah. It's good that you brought up a heavyweight actually - a guy who CAN'T weight hop. Is that to count against him? :dunno:

 

No, but for me personally I treat heavyweight as a unique division (which it is obviously) and exclude heavyweights from p4p lists for this very reason

 

Thobela Merely MOVED UP in Weight, but what did he ACCOMPLISH as he Moved Up Thru the Weights???...Did he Win Titles in 8 Different Weight Classes???...4 Different Weight Classes???...2 Different Weight Classes???...



REED:hammert:

 

That's what I said. Sure he moved up a LOT, but the accomplishments aren't remotely comparable.

Glen Catley != Hatton and Cotto, not to mention all the belts Pacquiao has won in different weights.

 

What Slice said regarding this, it's a pretty unique division really.

For the record I give Tyson more credit for his accomplishments at heavyweight than if he'd been 6'4 and 245. He's a pretty small heavyweight even in his own era.

I also give Duran more credit for beating Barkley than a natural middleweight. You're telling me he should be judged as a middleweight because he was fighting there?? Fuck that, he was a fat little lightweight, and as such, it makes it 10 times more impressive, fighting a natural, 6'1 middleweight.

Do not underestimate size differences. Lewis made a career of using his height and weight to beat smaller fighters, look what happened when he fought a good fighter his own size, very different fight.

It's also a bit too simplistic to say "He had the right body type".

That's like saying "Hagler had the right chin type" to be so good, or Roy Jones "Just had the right amount of physical speed" to be so good. You can't count that against someone, Pacquiao's freakish ability to hop weights is as much of a talent as chin or stamina etc.

I also don't see it as body type, that's one aspect of it. Being able to put on pounds and still retain speed and power, it IS freakish, but it's more a case of everything he brings to the table, speed, power, chin, agility, overall fighting ability, workrate etc. They all tie in together and work very well as a style against bigger men.

 

Marvin did it without steroids!!!!!!!

 

But if he had been, he wouldn't have been nearly as fast, he couldn't have had the same combos, the same upper body movement and the style wouldn't have worked at all, so should we instead punish him for being short? Or should we give George Foreman props for making such an admirable career without speed? I can't find the logic from this.

In my opinion jumping up in weight and winning titles in several weight classes is a big achievement, and beating a guy 20 lbs bigger is a greater achievement than beating a similar level guy of your own size. This should be added up when we define who ranks greater historically.

However if me make p4p lists of fighters today, then Pac like everybody else should be ranked compared to the fighters of his own division, which now is the welterweight. As a welterweight he is damn quick and has huge stamina, he isn't particularly big puncher and could have trouble with guys that have more reach

 

Your dismissal of PEDs is stupid. If the accomplishments were assisted by PED use, then they are greatly compromised. It doesn't matter whether or not PED use can similarly help everyone else. Armstrong and all of the cheating piece of shit olympians don't get a free pass because 'hey, if PED use was so helpful everyone would be as good' apologist bullshit. No, they get their titles, medals, and records removed from the books, they get banned from their sports for years at a time, and they get the justified disdain of fellow honest competitors.

Armstrong and Pacquiao are very similar in this regard. We all pretty much know that they are/were cheating pieces of shit, but there's just enough sand left to stick your head in if you choose to.

 

I wonder if this is true? He certainly had a steroidesque body for the era. I hope his accomplishments were sans juice, though. Hagler seems like a guy who would not use steroids, but that may just be wishful thinking on my part.