Yes I will say that much for Andre Ward. He can actually box and he can actually fight. Khan is the profit, but Andre is the boxer.
You're a moron. Also, your contrarian hyper aggressive hyperbolic schtick makes you come off like a 15 year old trying too hard. Grown ass men don't have any kind of schtick.
I score body shots. I am actually the opposite of a moron. I watch and don't listen to the agenda . The Showtime crew had Ward up 4-0 after 4 when nothing happened in round 1. Announcers are story driven. I actually have to thank you for disdaining me. Someone of your obviously low origin is too inferior to understand me. Grown ass men do not follow the words of illiterate pedophiles roaming shitty deserts. Your disdain means I am living a good life. I hope lowly peasants disdain me. Thank you.
My 2 cents After seeing Froch/Ward I felt I needed to at least say a few things to get them off my chest, and my kids don't give a shit about boxing, so here goes: * Yes, Ward has some skill. But not lots of it. He has become completely, utterly, thoroughly, and (I am afraid) inescapably reliant on holding, pushing, head-butting, and other such tactics in order to SET UP much of his offense. * Without the aid of constant grabbing, clawing, pushing, and leading with his head, Ward would have a very difficult time throughout much of ANY fight against a solid opponent. As I said - he DEPENDS now on ensuring he does not get hit by using the hold/hack tactics. He also sets up a startling number of left hooks or uppercuts by holding, pushing off, throwing the punch, then immediately driving his head back into opponent's chest before he can be countered. Why do you think so many of Ward's "power punches" are so short, and were so ineffective on Froch? Because they are "compact"? It's because he is throwing them in the space he creates by shoving/holding/etc. Every now and then he'd land a right hand that appeared to be off of a jab, but on closer inspection he was measuring with the left and actually holding Froch's head down with it. It used to be that you had to be able to defend yourself in close or at a distance in boxing.... but now you simply don't. You just eliminate the part of the game that exploits your weak points by excessive holding and pushing. There was one time in the 11th round of Ward/Froch that the Showtime feed showed Ward literally run Froch into the corner and drive his head into Froch's face, pushing Carl's head back past the ring ropes. Ward has some decent offensive abilities. His defense is passable, mostly hands up. So to me it is just unforgivable that he fights the way he does. It is very difficult to counter a man who does this over and over: (1) Drives his head into you (2) Ties you up and holds you (3) Pushes you to some destination (4) Pushes off just enough to get a quick punch in to the head, sometimes to the back of the head (5) Immediately drive his head back into your face/chest How do you counter that without fouling yourself? Watching John Ruiz I could understand, although I held disdain for him as well... .but he simply was not capable of doing any better. He could not box, he could not punch, he was a coward, an asshole, an idiot, and he was deluded. OK. Ward has skills. He could easily learn to move in the pocket and avoid counters, or even go the Cotto route and mix a little bit of backing up with some improved defense. Either way, Andre Ward is HALF a fighter. He does NOT possess the ability to defend himself by foot movement, head movement, blocking/parrying, or even making distance. He can throw a couple of decent punches (left hook, OK right hand, uppercut, good jab), and that's IT. The rest is reliant on incessant rule-breaking, and although we as boxing fans are accustomed to it, verily even sometimes we argue to accept it.... I don't. The more flat-out fighting there was in the Ward/Froch fight - middle of the ring exchanges and general back and forth - the more competitive Froch was. And given the way Froch was winging punches about, sometimes rather sloppily frankly, it really gives on pause about how "good" Ward really is... in a "no holding/no pushing" fight I would pick Carl Froch to beat Andre Ward. Ward tires, his workrate slows, he does not like getting hit, and imagine how he would be in later rounds if he actually had to EVADE punches and expend energy slipping and countering instead of just locking someone up over and over and over and resting his head on their chest or face. I had Froch winning 5 rounds, although I could accept 3 or 4 rounds as well as there were at least 2 that I was mixed on. But IMO this was not a "domination" of any kind. Froch does not have as much skill as Ward, but that doesn't mean shit. Boxing is about the whole package, and right now when I watch Carl Froch fight, I see a guy who can do what he needs to do to win fights, even while taking risks in the process. When I see Ward fight, I see a guy who only has HALF a skill set, and whose entire style is predicated upon the foundation of holding/pushing/headbutting to establish and maintain an environment that allows him to get his offense off.
It is strange. They do indeed nuthug like mad, but when it comes to scoring, they are often deffential to the point of daftness. MTF
Good post Outlander. Ward is a limited but effective guy. He won't do too many $$$ PPV's but he will win his fair share of fights. I would still take his style over Khans rubbish.
Forgive him. Does one beat a dog for shitting on the carpet? A dog is being a dog. A retard acts in a retarded manner. He cannot be judged by our standards.
It's strange how Ward has become Bernard Hopkins 2, without HAVING to resort to such an ugly style. It's not like he's lost his reflexes, he just chooses to being cagey and "dirty". Maybe he lost his confidence, or maybe he's over-protecting his "0".
He's very good at what he does but he was making a lot of mistakes too, Froch was too mechanical to take advantage. Ward often fell short and left himself over extended and vulnerable to a fleeter-footed fighter. He also generates minimal offense when he charges forward. He is dominant when he feints and forces slower fighters to lead, working them over as they come in, or picking them off with the jab. A non puncher with world-class foot-and-hand-speed will fight Ward down to the wire. Believe me. It's not power or strength or balls that bothers Ward, its making sure you don't fall into his grapple traps. Stay on the outside, force him to lead, and be ready for him.
Thank you! Imagine how vapid and useless your comments would be if you could read and understand the material. Sometimes it is good just to admit to ourselves when we are over our head, so points for you.
Nah, I'm not on the warpath. I just find a lot of what is being said here a little at odds with what I saw. Don't get me wrong- Ward impressed me last night. Beforehand I thought him talented enough but otherwise an over-protected homer with no power and reliant on an arsenal of underhand tactics. Last night he fought hard, against a teak-tough opponent, and was a deserved winner. No argument can be made against Ward deserving that win. None. He won and deservedly so. But this nonsense about schoolings and 'p4p' are way off the mark on what I saw. I saw an opening round of absolutely nothing followed by a dominant Ward clocking up rounds in the next seven. I can't remember which, maybe round two, but I thought Froch was one of the first eight. At least two of them, maybe six and seven, Ward won BIG. He picked Froch off over and over with counter hooks and looked on the verge of a stoppage. After this, though, Froch started to lure him into a phonebox type of fight and, despite Ward looking like he was winning because Froch was retreating to the ropes, Froch landed a lot of solid body shots which started to slow Ward down. Whilst Jim Watt and other cunts were blathering about Froch being 'bullied', I saw Froch landing the better, cleaner, crisper shots in these exchanges; especially the body shots. There was one exchange where Froch literally landed a five punch combination off the ropes, including two nice body shots, and Watt was still going on about Ward 'outclassing' Froch. He had been blinded by Wards excellent start to the fight and had completely stopped actually watching what was happening. I'm starting to think a lot of people here did, too. The effect of those body shots, and Froch's good earlier inside work, were obvious by midway through the tenth because Ward was knackered. His sharp hooks started to get more sloppy and Froch started cutting the ring down effectively. I said this last night- if this had been an old-school, fifteen rounder, I think Froch would have sneaked it. Ward looked dead tired and Froch, as he always does, was coming on very strong. I had Froch winning nine, eleven and twelve fairly comfortably and ten (though closer) But at the bell Ward was a deserving, if very tired, winner, because he won at least six, and probably seven, of the first eight rounds. Oh, and a last word on Smoger. I thought he was excellent last night, absolutely excellent. i hardly noticed him all night... MTF
Everytime you raise your hand and start a punch you're wide open for a counter. That has always been and will continue to be true in boxing. Period. So of course Ward makes mistakes. Every fighter does. Froch lost the fight inside and outside...from the outside Ward out jabbed him and counterpunched him...on the inside Ward smothered his offense and outpunched him. Froch had success late when Ward backed straight out and slid across the ropes. Ward placed himself in a position to not offer a counter when Froch landed...that's why Froch had the minimum success he had late. Even with that, when Ward reengaged he had success. It's not like Ward flat out ran like Khan...fought a negative fight and looked to not engage...if anything, Froch spent more time retreating than Ward. Ward stood his ground and was directly in front of Froch and yet Froch couldn't catch him. It's been amusing watching Brits whine about their guys losing two weeks in a row. Froch and Khan both lost because their opponents made adjustments neither had the ability to deal with. With all that said...Froch wasn't bitching...even some of the video I saw long after the fight he didn't complain or offer excuses like the ones seen in this thread. He pointed toward his own inability to adjust and lack of skill in terms of dealing with Ward. Froch himself said he needed to get back in the gym and work on things.
Starting with Ward not being skillful is either purposely inflamatory or boxing stupidity. Two choices here...have you chosen for yourself?
To be honest, I can't see any gym work in the world which gives Froch a better chance of winning. He's thirty four now and unless he can somehow muster up speed in his punches which he has never had and somehow learn, eventually, to hold an actual guard instead of keeping his hands at waist height, then he loses any rematch which may or may not arise. MTF
I agree on Ward over Khan, because Ward, to his credit, did not run. Khan stumbling about running away from Peterson was embarrassing. You often point out the bias and the sensationalizing that the media/commentators do when it's their boy in the ring... well Showtime did not disappoint for the Ward/Froch fight. Generally I don't give a shit about this sort of thing, as I see these people as entertainers and not as "journalists" most of the time. But it appears to me as I read through various threads on this fight that people are indeed disproportionately swayed by the commentary. What exactly did Ward do in this fight that would make anyone believe he is anything more then a "good" fighter who grapples constantly as part of his game plan? Is that even in dispute? Froch can be amateurish and wild, keeps his hands down most of the time, took more risks than Ward, tried in the closing rounds to step it up and make the fight, and fought competitively and landed a good deal on Ward. So that means Ward has... lots of skill? Is an all time great? Is a p4p contender? Huh? Ward was one round away from a majority draw, people. To me, this fight showed how incredibly limited Ward really is. He is adept at his style, and as I have said a number of times before, he has skills, but his limitations are glaring. I am not, nor ever have called him a bum. But he will remain a "good" fighter, who squeaks out questionable close decisions in fights soggy with wrestling and grappling, drilling with the head, moderate punch numbers, and the rank and file will continue to tout his "blazing speed", etc., etc. I love boxing, but to me Ward is minimally entertaining.
I did not say Ward was not skillful. http://donpotter.net/PDF/Remedial Reading Drills - Margin.pdf When we get back to arguing a valid premise I will continue. Take your time.
@ Feebles pretty much agreed bar on Froch winning a rematch, but thats for another day. Ward got tired and it wasn't because he played a Basketball game earlier that day. Froch stuck it to him and landed a lot of decent shots downstairs. Part of the problem with watching things on a postage stamp screen is you know what's happening, you just can't chronicle it in any detail. Froch was getting to him alright, later on. Ward looked tireder, earlier, than I've ever seen before. I wasn't at all surprised as soon as the pfp bullshit got rolled out afterwards, that standard fare for an American fighter, win a hallmark event and start getting pfp'd.
I would never hold it against a guy like Ward that he is "minimally entertaining" Vitali is minimally entertaining, but has a lot of old school tricks, little wrinkles etc. I will tune in to see Ward in the future I am sure of it. If he could eschew the cheating it might make it better to watch. Showtime are so far up Wards asshole they are coming out his mouth. What annoys me about the pfp racket is that nobody had Kessler or Froch up the pfp rankings, and now all of a sudden Ward is right up there, off the back of two decision wins over those two fighters. PfP is basically an invention in any case, a gimmick.
Off the top of my head, I would have had Froch maybe nine or ten prior to last night. I'd say Ward takes that spot. MTF
Ward started with the head when he started to tire. I thought he fought quite clear whilst he was in his comfort zone in rounds 1-8. By the eleventh, he certainly did start with the head and the elbows. MTF
pfp?I don't rate him. In the division, he is probably 1 or 2, I would give him 1 because he beat froch and Bute hasn't really done much bar whitewash the guy Froch beat to get into the final. 2 and 3 are between Froch and Bute, because RECENCY dictates that Froch lost his last fight and Bute did not. Kessler is behind Froch/Bute because despite "beating" Froch he abstained from the tournament and hasn't fought anyone of note since. That'll be recency at work again. So if Kessler comes in at 4, you could give 5 to Dirrell, if he is still interested in fighting. Johnson has lost his last two, the loss to Bute was painfully one-sided. He lost clearly to Froch. It tails off pretty badly beyond 5. Abraham, Johnson, Stieglitz, Green, Bika, are no threat at all to the upper half of the division. DeGale and Groves are too green as of yet, as is Eubank Jr, who is just a baby.
