Andre Ward is the P4P #2

I'm far from a Ward fan, but its comical how disrespected he is in P4P talks. Its always Universally accepted that Floyd, Manny, and Martinez are the top 3, and after them is Donaire (which is bullshit).

Ward at this point is a better fighter than Manny IMO. He's my pick for P4P #2 behind Floyd. And if Cotto upsets Floyd, Ward will move to 1.

 

I've been a begrudging admirer of Ward for a while, too. I still think Donaire is better, but after his last couple of performances the ground I'd make that case from is shakier.

I don't think there's much between Pac, Ward & Donaire. All 3 are better than Martinez.

 

If Manny really puts it on Bradley I'll happily revert to him being undisputed top 2. If Bradley beats Manny he moves in the conversation.

 

Yeah, Manny will have to destroy Bradley in order to stake claim.

I think at the LEAST he's gonna struggle with Bradley. And Timmy the head is very good, but not as good as Ward.

 

I'll reserve judgement till the Bradley fight. If he can fuck Bradley up, I think he's still a much better fighter than Ward.

I think Ward and Martinez are both better than Donaire actually. Donaire has regressed in a big way for whatever reason, he's looked sloppy and average for 2 fights and I think he'll continue to look not that great when he starts to regularly fight guys that aren't midgets.

Don't get me wrong, I like Donaire, he's just not as good as I thought he was.

Ward is crafty and skilled, but he's also a dirty fucker, and I get the sense he's not QUITE as good as people think, I think he's gone from HIGHLY underrated to a tad overrated.

He's obviously legit though, no question, top 5 PFP for sure.

 

Ward is number 3 at best.....no way is he ahead of Pacquiao or Mayweather....

 

if martinez beat ward he would move into my top 20 all time pound for pound!

 

Chad Dawson, if he actually fights motivated, has the style to beat Ward. You'll see that after he pounds old man Hopkins next week.

Ward would school Bute.

 

Ward would kick Maravilla's ass.

 

would you make martinez p4p numero uno if he beat up ward?

 

Yes.

 

Agreed with all.

 

What's p4p though? Other than Marquez, everyone Pacquiao fights is way bigger than him.

 

Wait and see what happens next time both Pac & Donaire fight a willing dance partner. I suspect neither has regressed as much as you think.

 

Why does Martinez get a pass for looking like crap last couple times out?

 

Personally I judge a guy in the division he fights in.

 

I dig. I think it's a little bit of everything.

 

Aye. Trading rounds with Macklin & Barker. Donaire's looked downright BORED his last two fights having to chase guys only there to survive but on sane cards he breezed through

 

Aye.

 

He doesn't, he's looked vulnerable, but I think that's somewhat his make up as a fighter. The bottom line is he still KO'd two guys bigger than him, who came to fight and win.

 

I think Pacquiao's regression is in large part mental, physically he's slowed but no more than Floyd has, but he doesn't seem to have that fighting spirit and ferocity that made him such a force and huge star to begin with. He is not as balls to the wall anymore, and unlike even Duran for example, he doesn't have the style to be that effective NOT being really aggressive.

Donaire who knows, but Jake has noticed the same thing, and he's always been a Donaire believer. Donaire used to be so neat and crisp and technically awesome, but he's looked sloppy recently.

Donaire was fighting a guy in Narvaez who looked literally 3 divisions smaller. At least Pacquiao and Martinez have been generally fighting significantly bigger guys. And IMHO he did actually struggle with Vazquez, and dropped a few rounds, the scores were ridiculous, the Vazquez did win a few rounds.

 

Fucking right. He's American.

 

The difference is I don't. I give Roy more credit for beating Ruiz for example than anyone else who beat Ruiz, bar Tua I guess ::

 

I don't know. Wlad gets less credit for his dominance due to his presiding over a weak division. Not sure why the same doesn't apply to Martinez.

Macklin's best "win" is the Sturm fight. Yes he got robbed, but when a loss trumps any actual/official wins on your resume, it doesn't say much.

Barker is every bit as mediocre as any Top 10 heavyweight Wlad has shut down in the past 5-6 years.

I'm with steve_dave on this one. Martinez does in fact get a pass. If the excuse is that he's not a true MW, then how the hell does the same not apply to a WW Pacquiao, especially a past-prime version.

 

C'mon X. The lowest he's rated among any major publication is Top 5. How is that being disrespected? Number 5 among the very best in the world.

There's an argument to be made that he deserves to be higher than JMM, Donaire and Martinez. I don't argue his place whether it's 3-6 and don't even outright dismiss #2 (I disagree but don't dismiss).

But to say he's being disrespected is way off. Prior to the SMW tourney, had zero wins of note. His best was over Miranda.

Even in winning the tourney, he had the easiest path to the championship. The win over Kessler definitely put him on the map and in P4P consideration, no question.

After that was Allan Green. Then Sakio Bika. Then Arthur Abraham, and in a performance no better (and certain;y far less entertaining) than that of Dirrell or Froch.

From there he beat Froch, which again elevated him. He was Top 10ish prior to the Froch fight; the win there put him in Top 5.

No disrespect here. Once he learns his fair market value and agrees to terms for a Bute fight AND beats him, P4P shakeup can continue. Until then... he's fine where he is as long as it's anywhere from 3-5.

 

Historically, yes. Historically I'd take a guy's whole career in context - how he aged, whether he beat bigger guys, whether he achieved unique things ect. But I think a p4p list at a given time's gotta throw context out the window and just judge how good guys are in that snap shot of time. Pac isnt a better welterweight today for being smaller any more than Hopkins is a better light heavyweight for being older than malthusius. Those things factor in historically, but not right now.

So Roy Jones scores historically for beating a heavyweight but, if hed stayed there I'd have dropped him out the p4p list....maybe one place above Chris Byrd at about 63 or some shit.

 

Fair post.

 

Indeed I see your point, the Hopkins comparison is fair.

However isn't a P4P list who would win if they were the same size, rather than competing in the same division? I see it as more who would win if they were exactly the same natural size, and just to emphasize that point, I think if Pacquiao was a 5'11 natural junior middleweight he probably would have punched Plasterito's head off within 4 or 5 rounds.

 

I have Ward at # 4 at the moment, behind Mayweather, Pacquiao, and Martinez. But Ward stands to overtake Martinez soon for that spot soon, especially if he takes apart Bute.

Pacquiao if he wants to hold on to the 2nd spot must look good against Bradley, no ifs ands or buts.

Donaire is at 5 right now and I don't see him climbing any higher than that.

 

That's how I look at it too. But pound for pound is cool because it's so subjective. I dig all the different perspectives.

Pacquiao, to me, is the definition of pound for pound. At least before the Marquez fight.