Any historical precedence for what happened Saturday night?

Can anyone think of some examples of fighters having struggled (win or lose) with an opponent only to knock him out in a return match-up?

It's easy to think of examples involving just two fights. Martinez/Williams comes to mind. Was anyone screaming steroids after that one? Afterall, Williams had taken Martinez's best shots in the first fight. And lo and behold, was on his face early in the second.

It's more difficult to find examples involving four or even three matchups though. Anyone?

 

No, I can't think of any fights in history where a guy couldn't drop the other guy over 36 rounds then knocks him DEAD with one punch.

 

At what rate does the likelihood of that happening decrease with respect to the number of rounds fought? Was Saturday's result three times less likely than the result from Williams/Martinez?

 

Not everyone is a legend like Marquez. Best fighter the past 20 years

 

Maybe, but I'm not ready yet to rule out historical precedence. My view is, if JMM is under suspicion, it shouldn't be on the basis of the knock-out.

For me, the knock-out was well within the realm of possibility, with our without PEDs. In fact, one could argue that a knock-out was more likely than ever to occur in their fourth fight, when both guys had gained an unhealthy sense they knew the other inside and out and more importantly when both guys were adamant they were going for the knock-out (and this was clearly the case judging from the way both guys fought).

If we all agree that both guys were indeed going for the knockout in more deliberate fashion than in any of the previous fights, then it's difficult to make the case that a knock-out result is so unlikely.

Granted, Pacquiao was hyper-aggressive in their first meeting. Why wasn't he knocked out then? Well, JMM didn't have three fights of experience behind him for one thing. Plus, as much success as JMM had in that fight, he himself was clearly not in the mode of going for the knock-out (was too worried about avoiding the left hand he couldn't see). And besides, no one in their right mind can make the case honestly that because a knock-out happened in the fourth fight, it's somehow beyond belief it didn't happen in the first, second or third. Like I said, you could argue a knock-out was more likely than ever going into the fourth fight, given the mentality of both fighters and the realization each one must have had they would need to improve on their performances from the first three fights.

 

jesus fucking christ

JMM was rightly under "suspicion" the LAST TIME they fought

fuck suspicion, he IS on something... end of story

you want to see what Juan Manuel marquez looks like naturally when he ways 140+? watch his fight with mayweather where he is flabby and weak and listless

look at him now... PEDs

if JMM was a "hippity hoppity" fighter (in other words, black and arrogant) you'd be giving us a straight-from-the-rectum report on his history of use

no mystery here, no sleuthing required... JMM is not supposed to be able to effectively fight at 147 pounds at age 39, he is not genetically programmed to do so... several years ago, he was completely impotent at 140, he had NOTHING... now he is built like a linebacker at welterweight... why? because he is using PERFORMANCE ENHANCING DRUGS

 

Take 'PED' out of every sentence here and put in 'effective weight training' and this post would work just as well, though. It's not like a guy gaining 5 pounds of muscle and a bunch of strength in 5 months takes steroids, man.

Boxing is very late to the party, here

 

Jimmeny Cricket. I'm gonna start out this reply with inappropriate hostility, then I'm gonna tell you how it is.

I think the point I'm making, which is a point you haven't addressed, let alone refuted, is that whether you think JMM were on PEDs or not, the knock-out in and of itself is no more suspicious than if there hadn't been one.

For a variety of reasons, it's easy to imagine that three nearly even fights in which neither fighter distinguished himself as distinctly superior, would culminate in a fourth that ends in a knockout.

If we're going to focus on the PEDs, as if they're responsible for the knockout, why wasn't there a knockout in the third fight, in which you allege JMM was also on PEDs? Jesus Christ.

 

Ezzard Charles beat Jersey Joe Walcott twice by decision, and then in the third fight, Walcott tore his head off in 7 rounds with a left hand hookercut. Charles landed facefirst on the canvas just like Pacquaio did.

 

How to explain such an unexpected series of events?

 

Walcott won the 4th fight by decision.

 

Now that's just fishy. Don't you think? How does he show the ability to knock him out in their third meeting, only to win a decision in their fourth. It simply doesn't compute.

 

Walcott was also 37 or 38, but he was a heavyweight the whole time. In his next fight, he lost to undefeated Rocky Marciano if memory serves me right. Walcott had previously lost twice to Joe Louis, once by a very controversial decision and the second time by TKO, I think.

 

I'm not arguing with anybody, but Walcott was a career heavyweight as far as I know while Charles was a former lightheavyweight.

 

The Duran-DeJesus trilogy also comes to mind. DeJesus won the first one, Duran the second, and Duran the third by knockout.

 

good comparison.

It's not like there aren't good reasons to suspect that Marquez is on, but they're the same reasons to suspect every other top pro. Gaining 5lb of muscle on a professional weight training regime isn't weird itself and neither is Pac being KO'd by the cleanest, blindest shot of his career.

 

Is that Shane Mosley in your avatar? The zombie appearing after the female one?

 

I'm not buying it, frankly

 

but Walcott didn't look appreciably different in the latter two fights... it was the same weight, he looked no less sharp, nothing changed about him

Marquez physically looks like a different person

 

you don't comprehend well, do you?

The KO is not because of PEDs

Marquez being a suddenly enormous Welterweight IS

You are stuck on the KO, I am not talking about the KO... I am talking about a guy who was wasted several years ago at the weight and who was FAR from strong even at LIGHTWEIGHT suddenly looking like Simon Brown starting with his 3rd fight with Pacquiao

 

to reiterate, I stated Marquez was a juicer the LAST TIME they fought

this is not about the KO... the KO has nothing to do with it

 

JMM's changing physique is like any fighter's who's moved up in weight and had time to adjust. Did Trinidad at 160 look anything like Trinidad at 147? Or Duran at 160 look anything like Duran at 135?

I don't think any of us were surprised when JMM came into the PBF looking under-sized and pudgy for his first fight at 147, having never fought at 140, and having spent most of his career at 126. Likewise, I don't think any of us should be surprised to find that years later he's better acclimated.

My guess is, JMM has used PEDs. But let's not fall into this evidenciary reasoning in which we start with what we believe, and then look to circumstances as proof we're right. It's simply not convincing.

 

There's just isn't anything suspicious about somebody starting weight training and gaining some muscle/strength, it'd be bizarre if he didnt.

 

I suspect they might all be using something. But I'm no more or less suspicious of JMM than anyone else

 

It's the same stuff that made people call Pac a PED user, only JMM did it over a way shorter period of time. He looks like a completely different person, better than he has ever looked, at the age of 39. If that's not strange I don't know what is.

 

Even AFTER Several Fights @ Higher Weights, Duran AND Trinidad's Physique's Always Looked SOFTER than @ their Best Weights...Duran was DOUGHY, Bordering on FAT @ 54-60...Tito had Friggin LOVE HANDLES @ 60...

Marquez's Physique IMPROVED....Sorry, but a 39 year Old DOESN'T Improve his Physique & Power w/Out ENHANCING Himself CHEMICALLY...The Increase in Definition from the Floyd Fight to the Pac Fights is ALL the "Evidence" you Need, Bro....




REED:num:

 

exactly

 

If any man gets a professional strength trainer and starts weight training seriously/effectively for the first time in his life he'll look like a completely different person too. The only strange thing here is that he changed his training methods so late in his career.

 

WEIGHT TRAINING! ::::::

 

Hut, he didn't gain "some"

he looks harder and more cut at 39 years of age, at a weight several divisions higher than where he started then he did in his 20s ... he looks like a different person

this is a guy who was far from strong at 135, who is now a beast... furthermore, the transformation happened in one training camp (before the previous Pac fight) with a new assistant with known links (essentially acknowledged by his government immunity) to the most famous PED case in history... how is that not suspicious?