my mistake, I should have said who are these giant top hw that we have now ?? Still, doens't change the fact that today hw aren't significantly bigger than the one in the 80's, except if you consider butterbean a big HW
just made a verification using boxrec the average height of the 2012 top 11 hw of ring magazine was 193 cm while the average height of the 1986 hw of ring magazine was 191 cm but the standard deviation is 5 cm for the 1986 hw and is 8 cm for the 2012 hw p-value of the t test between the 2 group is 42 %, not even close to being a significant difference. Usually you swear by stats, we'll see if you're an hypocrite or you'll admit you were wrong Edit :Just did the same thing comparing the class of 1982 with the one of 2012 to make sure it wasn't a freak occurence, and same thing, p-value is 30%, so no significant difference in size between the 2 era
Today's top 20 according to boxrec includes: 1. Vitali: 6'7" 248 lbs 2. Wlad: 6'6" 249 lbs 3. Pulev: 6'4.5" 249 lbs 6. Fury 6'9" 254 lbs 8. Thompson 6'5" 262 lbs 9. Helenius 6'6.5", 239 lbs 13. Wilder 6'7" 224 lbs 16. Pianeta 6'5" 240 lbs 17. Wach 6'7.5" 251 lbs 18. Dimitrenko 6'7" 251 Edit: Here are the 80's guys discussed in this thread: Holmes 6'3 225 lbs Page 6'2 230 lbs (i went back since his last fight of the 80's was 215 lbs) Spinks 6'2.5" 205 lbs Tucker 6'5" 246 lbs (i used his last fight of the 80's even though it's about 25 lbs heavier than his other 80's fights) Witherspoon 6' 3.5" 231 lbs Douglas 6'3.5" 242 lbs Tubbs 6'3" 233 lbs Thomas 6'3" 222 lbs Bruno 6'3" 228 lbs Berbick 6'2" 220 lbs Cooney 6'6" 238 lbs How much wronger can you be? That's 10 guys who would be freaking huge in the 80's. Don't do the bullshit averaging. This isn't about averaging because with so few samples an oddball or two can skew what is going on. I didn't get to cherry pick over the last decade and get Valuev, et al, in there. I just went with today. Now you go take the entire decade of the 80's and see if you can find 10 top 20ish guys who can match up. Then we'll start talking about who is wrong.
Picking freak occurence doesn't prove a point, it's only anecdotal. adding more fighter to the sample doesn't change a thing. I took the last 25 hw to have cracked the top 11 ranking (including freaks like valuev and dimitrenko) and the 25 hw who were in the top 11 ranking between 1982 and 1987. There again no significant difference, p-value is 30% mean is 191 for the 80's boys, and 192 for the recent hw standard deviation is 4 for the 80.s hw and 8 for the recent hw So again there is no significant size difference between the two era (not even close), it's only your perception that is flawed. I can send you the data if you want to check .
dimir Klitschko, Champion 198 Vitali Klitschko 201 Alexander Povetkin 188 David Haye 191 Kubrat Pulev 194 Tomasz Adamek 187 Robert Helenius 200 Denis Boytsov 185 Ruslan Chagaev 180 Chris Arreola 191 Tyson Fury 206 Eddie Chambers 185 Alexander Dimitrenko 201 Nikolay Valuev 213 Tony Thompson 196 Sultan Ibragimov 188 Samuel Peter 188 Oleg Maskaev 191 Juan Carlos Gomez 192 Serguei Lyakhovich 193 Vladimir Virchis 194 John Ruiz 188 Lamon Brewster 188 Shannon Briggs 193 James Toney 178 Michael Spinks, Champion 189 1. Mike Tyson 178 2. James (Bonecrusher) Smith 193 3. Pinklon Thomas 191 4. Tim Witherspoon 192 5. Tony Tubbs 190 6. Trevor Berbick 188 7. James (Buster) Douglas 192 8. Tony Tucker 196 9. Frank Bruno 191 10. Tyrell Bigg 196 Larry Holmes, Champion 190 1. Michael Dokes 191 2. Mike Weaver 185 3. Gerrie Coetzee 189 4. Renaldo Snipes 188 6. Greg Page 188 7. Gerry Cooney 198 9. Randall (Tex) Cobb 191 Carl Williams 194 James Broad 194 David Bey 191 John Tate 193 Adilson Rodrigues 186 Evander Holyfield 189 Here, and the only thing ridiculous here is your dumb stubborn self. as I said earlier you can admit you were wrong or act like a hypocrite
[TABLE="width: 215"] <COLGROUP><COL style="WIDTH: 48pt" width=64><COL style="WIDTH: 167pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 8118" width=222><TBODY>[TR] [TD="class: xl25, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]213[/TD] [TD="class: xl24, width: 222, bgcolor: transparent"]Nikolay Valuev 213[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl25, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]206[/TD] [TD="class: xl24, bgcolor: transparent"]Tyson Fury 206[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl25, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]201[/TD] [TD="class: xl24, bgcolor: transparent"]Vitali Klitschko 201[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl25, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]201[/TD] [TD="class: xl24, bgcolor: transparent"]Alexander Dimitrenko 201[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl25, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]200[/TD] [TD="class: xl24, bgcolor: transparent"]Robert Helenius 200[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl25, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]198[/TD] [TD="class: xl24, bgcolor: transparent"]dimir Klitschko, Champion 198[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl26, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]198[/TD] [TD="class: xl24, bgcolor: transparent"]7. Gerry Cooney 198[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl25, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]196[/TD] [TD="class: xl24, bgcolor: transparent"]Tony Thompson 196[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl26, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]196[/TD] [TD="class: xl24, bgcolor: transparent"]8. Tony Tucker 196[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl26, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]196[/TD] [TD="class: xl24, bgcolor: transparent"]10. Tyrell Bigg 196[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl25, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]194[/TD] [TD="class: xl24, bgcolor: transparent"]Kubrat Pulev 194[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl25, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]194[/TD] [TD="class: xl24, bgcolor: transparent"]Vladimir Virchis 194[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl26, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]194[/TD] [TD="class: xl24, bgcolor: transparent"]Carl Williams 194[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl26, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]194[/TD] [TD="class: xl24, bgcolor: transparent"]James Broad 194[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl25, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]193[/TD] [TD="class: xl24, bgcolor: transparent"]Serguei Lyakhovich 193[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl25, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]193[/TD] [TD="class: xl24, bgcolor: transparent"]Shannon Briggs 193[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl26, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]193[/TD] [TD="class: xl24, bgcolor: transparent"]2. James (Bonecrusher) Smith 193[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl26, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]193[/TD] [TD="class: xl24, bgcolor: transparent"]John Tate 193[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl25, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]192[/TD] [TD="class: xl24, bgcolor: transparent"]Juan Carlos Gomez 192[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl26, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]192[/TD] [TD="class: xl24, bgcolor: transparent"]4. Tim Witherspoon 192[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl26, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]192[/TD] [TD="class: xl24, bgcolor: transparent"]7. James (Buster) Douglas 192[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl25, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]191[/TD] [TD="class: xl24, bgcolor: transparent"]David Haye 191[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl25, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]191[/TD] [TD="class: xl24, bgcolor: transparent"]Chris Arreola 191[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl25, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]191[/TD] [TD="class: xl24, bgcolor: transparent"]Oleg Maskaev 191[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl26, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]191[/TD] [TD="class: xl24, bgcolor: transparent"]3. Pinklon Thomas 191[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl26, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]191[/TD] [TD="class: xl24, bgcolor: transparent"]9. Frank Bruno 191[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl26, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]191[/TD] [TD="class: xl24, bgcolor: transparent"]1. Michael Dokes 191[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl26, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]191[/TD] [TD="class: xl24, bgcolor: transparent"]9. Randall (Tex) Cobb 191[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl26, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]191[/TD] [TD="class: xl24, bgcolor: transparent"]David Bey 191[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl26, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]190[/TD] [TD="class: xl24, bgcolor: transparent"]5. Tony Tubbs 190[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl26, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]190[/TD] [TD="class: xl24, bgcolor: transparent"]Larry Holmes, Champion 190[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl25, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]189[/TD] [TD="class: xl24, bgcolor: transparent"]Michael Spinks, Champion 189[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl26, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]189[/TD] [TD="class: xl24, bgcolor: transparent"]3. Gerrie Coetzee 189[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl26, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]189[/TD] [TD="class: xl24, bgcolor: transparent"]Evander Holyfield 189[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl25, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]188[/TD] [TD="class: xl24, bgcolor: transparent"]Alexander Povetkin 188[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl25, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]188[/TD] [TD="class: xl24, bgcolor: transparent"]Sultan Ibragimov 188[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl25, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]188[/TD] [TD="class: xl24, bgcolor: transparent"]Samuel Peter 188[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl25, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]188[/TD] [TD="class: xl24, bgcolor: transparent"]John Ruiz 188[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl25, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]188[/TD] [TD="class: xl24, bgcolor: transparent"]Lamon Brewster 188[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl26, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]188[/TD] [TD="class: xl24, bgcolor: transparent"]6. Trevor Berbick 188[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl26, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]188[/TD] [TD="class: xl24, bgcolor: transparent"]4. Renaldo Snipes 188[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl26, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]188[/TD] [TD="class: xl24, bgcolor: transparent"]6. Greg Page 188[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl25, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]187[/TD] [TD="class: xl24, bgcolor: transparent"]Tomasz Adamek 187[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl26, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]186[/TD] [TD="class: xl24, bgcolor: transparent"]Adilson Rodrigues 186[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl25, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]185[/TD] [TD="class: xl24, bgcolor: transparent"]Denis Boytsov 185[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl25, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]185[/TD] [TD="class: xl24, bgcolor: transparent"]Eddie Chambers 185[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl26, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]185[/TD] [TD="class: xl24, bgcolor: transparent"]2. Mike Weaver 185[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl25, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]180[/TD] [TD="class: xl24, bgcolor: transparent"]Ruslan Chagaev 180[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl25, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]178[/TD] [TD="class: xl24, bgcolor: transparent"]James Toney 178[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl26, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]178[/TD] [TD="class: xl24, bgcolor: transparent"]1. Mike Tyson 178[/TD] [/TR] </TBODY>[/TABLE]
wich doesnt' prove a thing, only that there's more freak in the hw division than they're was, and more smaller guys too, but the 80's boys were more uniform, as you can see by the way smaller standard deviation. Anyway, i'm done with you, you seem too much of an idiot to grasp what average size means, and you're trying to prove a point wich the data clearly show doesn't exist . No wonder you're the laughing stock of the site
We've modified the discussion to height, not weight, which is bullshit, but whatever. If that's what you want to go with for 'bigger' then it still is demonstrated here and you didn't include Wilder or some other guys who have challenged for titles such as Hoffman or Austin. If anyone wants to look at those stats and take your side, please get on the record. No one will. And when no one takes your side against me at this site, it's a problem for you. Your point is stupid and wrong. Instead of admitting that today's heavyweights are bigger, you come up with a term 'freaks' as if that covers up what they are which is 'bigger'.
Look this is ridiculous, my whole argument is that the hw in the present aren't bigger than the hw in the 80's. I used height for a proxy for size, wich is discutable, but i think it reflect more on size than weight, since small fatass are not big hw imo (i dont consider butterbean a big hw, do you ?). There's no significant difference in the average height between the last hw that were in the yearly top 11 ranking of the ring and the 25 hw that were in the ring top 11 between 1982 and 1987. DO you understand what average mean ???? THe size difference is about 2 cm, wich is not a significant difference using standard stats procedure. Taking a few extreme example and using it as a generalisation for a whole population is not a valid procedure. Going by this logic, the 30's hw would be bigger than the 80's one since 3 fighter that were in the top 11 ranking of the ring in this era, were bigger than any 80's in the same ranking (Buddy Baer 199, Ray Impellittiere 202, Jack Trammell 198), wich would be clearly ridiculous. A mean is the only way to compare the average size of two populations, I find it incredible that I have to explain such a simple thing to you. And I didn't included the Hofmann, Austin and Wilder cause THEY WERE NOT in these ranking (nor did I include Mormeck, even if it would have suit my argument). It's not hard to undertand. If you want to live in your imaginary world, fine, I don't mind, but real world fact doesn't match your fantasy world.
Having murderous punching power is probably the most important weapon to have in boxing so who cares what he sucked at....and I wonder who invented the whole Quarry was unlucky to fight in the wrong era crap......that is the most repeated phrase when it comes to boxing and I'm tired of it...what era would he exactly have been a champion at anyhow? Remember Floyd Patterson....past his prime heavyweight from a "weaker" era probably should have gotten the W against Quarrey and Eddie Manchen another guy from a "weaker" era whipped him
say what? Smith hit Tyson with a huge right hand over the top..looked like a Temple shot....Tyson wobbles slightly and then tries to hold while being wide open for an uppercut because he is stunned....Tyson swings wildly..Bonecrusher hit him with some slapping shots towards the ropes and then right before the bell is punching at a backpedling Tyson with his hands completely down...clearly dazed....LOL
This is what happens when you spend more time on Boxrec than actually watching the fighters you are attempting to diminish.
he was wobbled briefly....and then after a couple of more shots Tyson was backpedaling with his hands down looking totally dazed until the bell sounded just in time...Im sorry but why can't you guys actually look at the video..its on youtube.......oh yes...I'm a big Tyson fan
I mean i guess when I say the world "wobbly" everyone thinks of what Kostya did to Zab Judah......so perhaps maybe thats why everyone is oblivious to the fact that Bonecrusher Smith and Tyson hurt pretty good up until the final bell....even after the bell he did a studder step
I don't even think I would even qualified Tyson as wobbly in the 1st round of the Tucker fight. He lost his equillibrum for half a second and seemed fine nearly right away.
very interesting, so UGTBK arguments about today's hw's looking worst because they are bigger (wich I kind of believed too) is pretty much wrong. And of course mikE won't understand shit about it, he probably doesn't even have an high school diploma. Talking about p-value, standard deviations and even mean (shockingly) is way over his head
Beautiful. I must admit that I did not expect you to fall for that bullshit. So you think he proved his point--that today's heavyweights are not generally bigger than those from the 80's? What he showed was that statistics can be misleading if you aren't careful or, in this case, being disingenuous. Today's top 20 according to boxrec includes: 1. Vitali: 6'7" 248 lbs 2. Wlad: 6'6" 249 lbs 3. Pulev: 6'4.5" 249 lbs 6. Fury 6'9" 254 lbs 8. Thompson 6'5" 262 lbs 9. Helenius 6'6.5", 239 lbs 13. Wilder 6'7" 224 lbs 16. Pianeta 6'5" 240 lbs 17. Wach 6'7.5" 251 lbs 18. Dimitrenko 6'7" 251 Edit: Here are the 80's guys discussed in this thread: Holmes 6'3 225 lbs Page 6'2 230 lbs (i went back since his last fight of the 80's was 215 lbs) Spinks 6'2.5" 205 lbs Tucker 6'5" 246 lbs (i used his last fight of the 80's even though it's about 25 lbs heavier than his other 80's fights) Witherspoon 6' 3.5" 231 lbs Douglas 6'3.5" 242 lbs Tubbs 6'3" 233 lbs Thomas 6'3" 222 lbs Bruno 6'3" 228 lbs Berbick 6'2" 220 lbs Cooney 6'6" 238 lbs How much wronger can you be?
I won't give you a seminar on statistics but will simply tell you than when doing statistical analysis on a population ( in this case, top hw fighters ), you can't simply pick and choose wich one you use and wich one you don't use as you do. You need a methodology. Using fighters in the top 11 in the ring or Boxrec ranking may be debatable (some would argue that the rankings are biased for example), as is using height to define a bigger man, but it's still way, way, more convincing than your way of ''proving'' thing, wich is simply cherrypickng wich fighters you use (and who suits your agenda) and doing zero test on it, wich is not only wrong, but straight up laughable.
Of course you can pick and choose because that's the point. Nobody gives a shit if the bottom 50% are still relatively similar in size and therefore skew the statistics. Look at the f'ing lists I put up and tell me which of the 80's guys would be considered big heavies in today's world? Only Cooney and maybe Tucker, if you ignore that he was really 215 lbs in the 80's except for his last fight of the decade. I just took the current top 20...didn't even cherry pick into the decade...and it clearly shows today's guys are generally bigger. Seriously, who in the 80's would you add to help your case--Too Tall Jones?
