Archie Moore vs Calzaghe, Kessler, Froch

C'mon. That's absurd. The positioning of the arms is slightly similar but the style is completely different, and Moore didn't utilize much head movement. Also Im not calling anyone who was dropped near double digit times before effectively being shot even a good defensive fighter.

And yes I've seen what little recordings are on the Internet.

 

And Floyd's rear hand is at his jaw and doesn't "cross" his body like the crab style Moore uses.

 

What does being dropped a dozen times in 200 fights or so have to do with being a great defensive fighter? Especially a guy who spent his prime years fighting a ridiculously high level of opposition over and over again?

As for the rear hand across the body, I suggest you look again ... That hand is all over the place depending on the situation ... He tended to rest it there rather than at the chin, but the action is exactly the same... Covers the left side of the face when an opponent throws rights, easily switched over to the other side of the head to offset left hands... You can see Toney or Tim Witherspoon for examples similar to Moore

Mayweather's style is similar with the key difference of a greater emphasis on his legs and his shoulder plus a more strict adherence to the rear hand being dedicated to full time face protection

furthermore, a lot of head movement is not a necessary qualifier for what makes a great defense... You move as necessary... Floyd Mayweather, for example doesn't move his head a whole lot, he does so when necessary or useful. Moore moved his head as needed... Not all great defensive fighters move their heads a lot like Floyd Patterson or Roberto Duran did

Calzaghe was floored what, 4 times in his 50 fights? Two times against scrubs, once by an old but good fighter and once against a hopelessly shot guy he would been hammered by years earlier... How many times do you think he'd have hit the deck if he had to face Moore's opponents?

 

Toney himself has cited Moore as one of the primary influences on his style.

 

Methinks SilentNight is TLC or Snaggles.

 

yup, he sure has

He's a big Ezzard Charles fan as well (another terrible black and white bum who boxes like Butterbean)

 

I don;t know who Snaggles is, but I think Silent Night seems too pleasant to be TLC... he's disagreeing, but he's not being a cunt about it

 

Snaggles was Kid Dynamite... that guy ruled

 

Yeah, no way Silent Night is TLC, they don't seem alike at all.

Who are you Cock Defender? Show your face Cock Defender!

 

Yeah, in a "I don't know what the Hell I am talking about, and I've never seen the fighters I'm talking about actually FIGHT (outside of maybe a collection of Tyson KO clips), but that won't stop me from saying ANYTHING to have the last word" kinda way. ::

Ali being no better than Tyrell Biggs and Biggs beating Foreman were two of my favorites. Along with Foreman being no more than "a smaller, less durable and less conditioned version of Bonecrusher Smith".

 

Beyond Ezzard Charles and Johnson, which fighters in particular do you think would have had Calzaghe hurling to the floor?

People give too much credit or his number of fights considering the terrible quality of opponent scattered in between the elite. Guys in the 40s would regularly fight 3-0 guys that they would knock out in a few rounds just to collect paychecks...obviously that wouldn't even be acceptable let alone practiced in the modern era.

Him getting dropped was consistent theme in his fights with high level fighters...and Calzaghe wasn't badly hurt in most of the times he was dropped...in fact he came back more inspired each time.

 

That's actually a pretty funny title.

I wouldn't mind it.

Although I would prefer the term "Dick Defender" for the alliteration effect, or "Penis Defender" to be more quaint.

 

Yeah Penis Defender would be more affable I think in my mind. It's just that the extra syllable doesn't quite roll off the tongue as well as dick defender or cock defender.

 

Silentnight have been beat three time and many of his belongings were acquired on tick.

 

::

OK, maybe he only been beat two time.

 

And the thing with Floyd is he doesn't move his head a lot in terms of like Roy Jones and Whitaker defend but he's the master of subtly slipping punches. It's exactly what Guerrero was alluding to in his post fight interview. His head is always in the right position and he always moves it out of range after and while throwing a punch.

It's what separates a truly great defensive fighter and a guy with average defense.

 

::

 

...Which Takes Us Back to REED's Point of Calzaghe Hanging In the Pocket a Bit Toooooo Loooooong...Do You REALLY Think Ah-Chee MO is Gonna Just Sit Back & ALLOW himself to Be "Smothered" by the Volume SLAPS of Calzaghe???...

Did it Occur to You Ah'Chee MO Won't Mind Punching WITH Calzaghe???...Ah'Chee MO is the GRATEST khtfoko Artest of Are Times...Calzaghe Hangs in the Pocket Tooo Loooong & it's Byron Mitchell All Over Again...Only this Time, he's In there w/1 of the GRATE Phinishers EVA...

Don't Get REED Wrong, Calzaghe's SPEED would Give Ah'Chee MO Some Problems...He Might Even have MORE Rounds in his Pocket...But Calzaghe ALWAYS Hung Around a Bit Tooooo Loooooooooong @ Close Range & Against Ah'Chee MO, he Gets SPARKED for It...



REED:fightme:

 

I like the idea of Calz vs Bob Foster more.

 

calzaghe vs holyfield, for me. at HW

 

And Froch vs Tyson

 

You don't even have to go as far back as Charles, Moore, etc. The prime versions of Roy Jones Jr, Bernard Hopkins, James Toney would've knocked Calzaghe out. And would you honestly give Calzaghe a chance against Michael Spinks?

 

Who are the elite fighters, at the time he fought them, on Calzaghe's resume? Kessler, maybe...who else?

 

Spinks would have given Calz the Marvin Johnson treatment.

 

Bernard Hopkins is not knocking Calzaghe out

 

A 900 year old Hopkins gave Calzaghe a fight and knocked him down, a prime Bernard Hopkins who could fight for every minute of 12 rounds would stop him. Maybe late, but he'd stop him.

Outside of the Klitschkos, Calzaghe probably has the worst resume of any "big name" fighter of the last 40 years. At least in the case of the Klitschkos, it's not their fault. His resume is totally unimpressive, full of bums and past-prime/shot "name" fighters. Kessler is probably his best win.

 

He wasn't hurt by the knockdown, it was a decent shot followed by a push. Plenty of lesser fighters than Calzaghe comfortably saw the final bell against Hopkins. I won't defend Calzaghes resume, I know it's bad, the thing is though, Hopkins reign at 160 is hardly better - if at all. If you want to give him credit for anything he achieved at 175 then you'll have to give Joe some kudos for beating him. He might have a couple of "names" on there at 160 but anybody who seriously thought DLH had a shot in that fight needs sectioning (especially as he'd already lost his previous bout at middle), and I was one round out on Hopkins-Tito also. I can't help it if people were caught up in the ridiculous Titomania. I don't see why I should have to rate Hopkins because of that fight, in the same way I didn't even watch Calzaghe-Lacy when it happened because I knew Lacy was shit and it would be a massacre. Both reigns were awful.

 

I don't see a whole lot of 3-0s on Archie Moore's record... The ones I do see are guys from South America where Boxrec likely does not have any more data for them (though Boxrec devotees seem to think this is impossible, because they are morons)

If I felt there would any purpose to it, I would go through each year of his career and compare the results with the Ring Magazine annual top tens in the divisions (back when that was a pretty good indicator of who was who and their value) to see how many of Moore's opponents were top ten each year he fought them and I think the number would be exceedingly high, especially considering there weren't 17 weight classes to water down a top ten back in those days

Archie Moore's resume is, frankly, unassailable... His accomplishments justifiably legendary... His skills were (I thought) unanimously recognized

 

They are. Both Moore's resume and skills are held in the highest regard by those who actually know how his opponents are and have actually seen him fight. When BoxRec came about, I thought it was a great thing. But the downside of it is that it created a new breed of boxing "fans" who would rather form their opinions of fighters based on stats rather than actually seeing the fighters fight and knowing something about their opposition and the historical context of the fights.

This is how the Luis Primera bandwagon came about...

 

Why do people pretend Bernard was so past it when they fought? He was 4 or so years removed from the biggest run of his career, had just upset Tarver and a fight later would destroy Pavlik and go on to win world titles years after.

The Hopkins that Calzaghe beat was still an elite fighter.