Hopkins 172.5 Murat 174

so is this fight worth watching?

 

It was pretty good for a Hopkins fight. Murat tries to win. I think it was possible to score the fight for him, actually, but Hopkins isn't going to lose on the cards unless he gets dominated.

So yes. And no.

 

cool worth checking out i guess :bears:

 

:atu:

 

Beat me to it MWS.

 

:mut:

 

ointlaugh:

Name a Distance Fight You Found IMfuckingPOSSIBLE to SOMEHOW Be Scored for Either Guy, mikE???...If You CAN, That Is???...



REED:scared:

 

its possible rich hall couldve gotten the nod vs jones jr if the stupid ref didnt stop the fight early

 

REED - let's be reasonable though, I'm sure if you sampled a pool of say, 10,000 people's scorecards for Hopkins - Murat, you could add up all the different rounds people scored for Murat and realise he actually won 12-0.

 

1. A heavier puncher
2. lands significantly more punches
3. in significantly more rounds.

Whenever you are missing any of those three things, shit gets possible very quickly.
The reasons can be summarized as follows:
1. Pro boxing is about damage. If you aren't the heavier puncher, you risk that the other guy will get more credit than you even if he lands fewere shots.
2. Judges are all over the ring. Vantage points can skew what you see. The greater the disparity in punches landed, the less likely a judge is to miss what is happening.
3. Judges make honest mistakes. Judges make correct determinations based on their own subjective factors and/or objective factors (i.e. location) that aren't apparent to Mr. TV viewer or the announcers. Closer rounds, by their very nature, increase the chances that someone will score the round differently than you.

Hopkins vs Murat had pretty much none of those things. I thought you could have given Murat the first 4 rounds. It's not like Hopkins dominated the last 8, either.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

 

Actually mikE, you're wrong. Hopkins landed 100 more punches in the fight. He out-landed Murat in 8 of the 12 rounds. And regarding harder shots, Murat was far more hurt and closer to being stopped han Hopkins.

So your only legitimate stance is the judges vantage point. So yeah, if Julie Lederman was watching from, let's say the Ladies room, she could have scored it for Murat.

 

::

 

From Boxingscene.com:
Soon to be 49-yr. old B-Hop, displaying little movement, had to rumble for this win against the stamina-challenged Murat. Hopkins' 247 landed punches are the most he's landed in 12 years (he landed260 in his upset win over Trinidad). B-Hop avg'd 47 thrown per round, eight more than he avg'd in his last 9 fights. Murat, who avg'd just 41 thrown per round, had his moments, landing 23 power shots in round 9, the most landed by a Hopkins opponent in 20 years (Roy Jones landed 25 power shots in round 6 of their 1st fight). Many of Murat's 120 landed power shots were flush to the head of B-Hop but lacked pop.</SPAN>
Total Punches Landed / Thrown</SPAN>
[TABLE="width: 91%"]
<TBODY itxtnodeid="191" itxtharvested="0">[TR]
[TD]Round </SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]1</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]2</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]3</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]4</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]5</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]6</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]7</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]8</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]9</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]10</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]11</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]12</SPAN>
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Hopkins</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]9/25</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]9/24</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]10/30</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]23/48</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]19/47</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]18/41</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]33/64</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]30/53</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]27/66</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]24/53</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]21/56</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]24/58</SPAN>
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]36%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]38%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]33%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]48%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]40%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]44%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]52%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]57%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]41%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]45%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]38%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]41%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Murat</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]5/28</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]4/26</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]5/32</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]12/46</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]9/31</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]11/41</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]18/50</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]9/30</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]27/66</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]13/54</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]16/37</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]18/45</SPAN>
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]18%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]15%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]16%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]26%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]29%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]27%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]36%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]30%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]41%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]24%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]43%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]40%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[/TR]
</TBODY>[/TABLE]
Jabs Landed / Thrown</SPAN>
[TABLE="width: 91%"]
<TBODY itxtnodeid="579" itxtharvested="0">[TR]
[TD]Round </SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]1</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]2</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]3</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]4</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]5</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]6</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]7</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]8</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]9</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]10</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]11</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]12</SPAN>
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Hopkins</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]4/14</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]5/14</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]4/14</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]8/20</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]4/14</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]4/11</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]7/15</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]3/10</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]7/19</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]9/21</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]5/26</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]3/14</SPAN>
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]29%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]36%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]29%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]40%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]29%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]36%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]47%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]30%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]37%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]43%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]19%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]21%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Murat</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]0/9</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]2/7</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]0/8</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]2/13</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]2/14</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]2/12</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]0/11</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]3/14</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]4/14</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]5/24</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]4/12</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]3/12</SPAN>
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]29%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]0%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]15%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]14%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]17%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]0%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]21%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]29%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]21%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]33%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]25%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[/TR]
</TBODY>[/TABLE]
Power Punches Landed / Thrown</SPAN>
[TABLE="width: 91%"]
<TBODY itxtnodeid="967" itxtharvested="0">[TR]
[TD]Round </SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]1</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]2</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]3</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]4</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]5</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]6</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]7</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]8</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]9</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]10</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]11</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]12</SPAN>
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Hopkins</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]5/11</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]4/10</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]6/16</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]15/28</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]15/33</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]14/30</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]26/49</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]27/43</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]20/47</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]15/32</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]16/30</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]21/44</SPAN>
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]45%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]40%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]38%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]54%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]45%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]47%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]53%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]63%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]43%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]47%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]53%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]48%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Murat</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]5/19</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]2/19</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]5/24</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]10/33</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]7/17</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]9/29</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]18/39</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]6/16</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]23/52</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]8/30</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]12/25</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]15/33</SPAN>
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]26%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]11%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]21%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]30%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]41%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]31%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]46%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]38%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]44%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]27%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]48%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]45%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[/TR]
</TBODY>[/TABLE]
Final ShoStats Report</SPAN>
[TABLE="width: 82%, align: center"]
<TBODY itxtnodeid="1356" itxtharvested="0">[TR]
[TD]
[/TD]
[TD]Total Punches</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]Jabs</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]Power Punches</SPAN>
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Hopkins</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]247 / 565</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]63 / 192</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]184 / 373</SPAN>
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]44%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]33%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]49%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Murat</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]147 / 486</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]27 / 150</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]120 / 336</SPAN>
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]30%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]18%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[TD]36%</SPAN>
[/TD]
[/TR]
</TBODY>[/TABLE]

 

That has Hopkins outlanding Murat in every round except Round 9. Hopkins doesn't hit harder than Murat, either.

The argument centers on which rounds could not have legitimately scored for Murat. You need to come up with 6 or 7. While the stats are a good place to start, they aren't necessarily conclusive. Scoring is subjective.

The stats suggest that Hopkins' best rounds were, in order, 8, 5, 10...then a drop down to 7, 12,11,4...then a drop down to 1,2,3 and finally 8.

So which rounds couldn't have been conceivably been scored for Murat? I don't think there are 7.

 

Or Richard Frazier. Now there was a man.

 

Did mikE really just provide evidence that hurts his own argument?

 

no doubt

it was a nap and tuck fight

It's like Chavez/Camacho... could go either way

 

You see here, the punchstats clearly favor Murat, ergo he won

 

Yeah, I did in some ways, but not in others. The punch stats don't reflect Murat's actual effectiveness, or rather they overstate Hopkins' effectiveness, imo. I'm not saying Murat won the fight, but I think if he had gotten the decision, it wouldn't have been outlandish. For example, a quick check of two round by round scoring places, had one guy giving Murat rounds 1, 3, 9, and 10. http://ringtv.craveonline.com/blog/181587-hopkins-versus-murat-live-round-by-round-updates

Here: http://www.mmamania.com/2013/10/26/...ts-live-fight-coverage-online-showtime-boxing
Murat won rounds 1, 2, 3, 10, 11

Showtime guys gave Murat 4, 5, and 4 rounds.

This guy http://www.boxingforum24.com/showthread.php?p=15768982 gave Murat rounds 1, 2, 3, 6, and 9.

Post #700 had it a draw.
Post #665 gave Murat 1, 2, and 3.

I can't find which rounds the official judges gave Murat.

 

As I said.

 

Sure, and you are just being a little disingenuous fool by intentionally misstating my point. Why don't you go read the wiki article I referenced earlier and then consult with your butt buds in private messages if you can't understand it.

 

mikE thinks Reducto ad absurdum is some secret thing only known to a handful of people; likely people who understand statisticS and economicS

MWS, you are nothing more than a little, disingenuous fooL!!!!

 

It's like explaining monkeys to an economist!!!!

 

cdogg, I gotta admit, I don't even know how to pronounce reductio ad absurduM. What language is it, like Chinese or something?

No wonder mikE wouldn't flunk a collegE exam - his IQ must be off the charts to be so intimately familiar with something as brain fizzlingly complex as reductio ad absurduM.

 

::

 

Is this some really bad shtick or is this guy really this inane? I cannot see any good reason why he does this after every fight.

 

Reducto ad absurdum sounds like a harry Potter spell.

 

You can't because I don't.

 

But you acknowledge that you are inane?