ODH makes it look easy with his height, speed and size. At 135 Odh was a monster. And I don't think the south paw stance, given Ramirez ' s aggressive style, would be a major impediment.
I think Hoya dominates early with his handspeed a major hurdle for Ramirez... However, I don't see this fight as resembling in any way the terrible time Ramirez had dealing with Camacho and Whitaker... Hoya doesn't move the way those guys did and he's not a southpaw... Ramirez works his way back into this fight and definitely gets some serious work done late, losing a close but fair decision
DeLa was CONVERTED From Southpaw...He's a NATURAL Lefty who Boxed Righty...All the While, his Left was STILL his Power Hand Though... & @ 135, that Power was TREMENDOUS...Did Ramirez Fight ANYBODY that Punched like DeLa Did, @ Lightweight???...For Certain, He NEVER Fought Anyone w/the Combination of Power AND Speed, that DeLa Possessed... REED'll Stop Short of Saying DeLa STOPS the Tough, Proud Ramirez, but REED Thinks DeLa Would HURT Him Enough Times to "Convince" Ramirez it's in his Best Interests to Curtail the Aggression, in the Name of Going the Distance... DeLa by Pretty WIDE UD...9-3ish... REED:hammert:
He fought Alexis Arguello and Edwin Rosario, two of the most devastating punchers in history and it could be argued his record in those fights was 3-0 (the Arguello fight was extremely close, the first Rosario fight was as well and if it had been a 15 rounder there is every indication Rosario would've been stopped... The second fight was a classic with Ramirez rising from two flash knockdowns to knock Rosario senseless en route to a stop) I think it is ridiculous to assert that Hoya hit any harder than those two guys, especially Rosario who may have been the hardest hitter of all time at 135 I don't see what Hoya being a converted southpaw has to do with anything... He fought right handed and was a one-handed fighter on top of it... It isn't like he switched stances in his fights... he was a righty for all intents and purposes Ramirez being left-handed is far more significant since Hoya looked awful every time he faced one
DeLa Fought as HIGH as 160, KO'ed Legitimate Guys as HIGH as '54... DeLa was LARGER than Arguello Or Rosario, so the Idea of Him Hitting HARDER @ '35 Isn't Faaaaaar Fetched, Whatsoever...In Addition to Being BIGGER, DeLa was QUICKER w/his Hands, Even @ '35...It's NOT Far Fetched to Expect a Bigger, Stronger, Faster, More Athletic Man to Punch HARDER, in a Weight Class he Shared w/a Smaller, Weaker, Slower, LESS Athletic Man, Is It???... The Power & RAPIDITY of DeLa's Blows is Something Ramirez NEVER Encountered... Even Being a Southpaw, Ramirez was the Quintessential "Stereotypical Mexican Fighter", the Type of Guy DeLa RARELY Had Trouble w/...Particularly @ a Weight Class where he DWARFED his Opposition... DeLa HITS Ramirez Virtually @ Will... REED Only Referenced the Left Being DeLa's POWER Hand Because Sweet Pea & Camacho TAMED Ramirez, Temporarily, w/Meaty Left Handed Shots...DeLa Would Hit Ramirez HARDER w/his Left Hand, than those 2 Ever Could... REED:hammert:
First of all, the ability to transition to a higher weight class is completely meaningless in a lower weight match... Roberto Duran was able to hurt and defeat middleweights... Esteban DeJesus found 140 a bridge too far... At 135 he gave Duran a tough time every time... It doesn't mean anything and there are 1000 other examples to go along with that one... It is a useless fact, has no bearing on the matchup Don't you mean quicker with his HAND as opposed to HandS? Hoya threw a jab, a left hook to the head and a left hook to the body... That was his arsenal... The right hands were weak... This is a large part of the reason he had such trouble with southpaws... He wasn't good getting outside foot position (the only time that a left hook is actually useful against a southpaw) and because he didn't have a right hand (the best weapon against a southpaw) to compensate for that... He didn't hit harder than Rosario He routinely dwarfed a lot of his opponents because a lot of them were featherweights and junior lightweights and they were on the whole OLD fighters... He dwarfed John-John Molina who, like Ramirez, was tough, resourceful and little bit dirty and how'd that work out for him? He had a hell of a time dealing with the guy and was nowhere close to stopping him... Molina couldn't punch either... Ramirez hit fucking hard Yes, Camacho and Whitaker were able to confuse Ramirez and nail him with sharp lefts... FROM A SOUTHPAW STANCE... Hoya fought right-handed... There is no comparison... It's like using Joe Frazier as a reference for picking Michael Moorer to whup Ali because Frazier's best punch was a left hook and Moorer was left handed... With the exception of a teenaged Ramirez getting blitzed by the legendary Ruben Olivares, the only guys to make it look anywhere near as easy as you are describing were Camacho (a defensive-minded, lightning fast, mobile southpaw), Whitaker (a defensive-minded, lightning-fast, mobile southpaw) and Ray Mancini (a squat, freakishly strong bull of a fighter whose physical makeup and style were so unlike DLH that any comparison is meaningless) Physically, stylistically, the closest to Hoya was Arguello, and he arguably lost... He wasn't as fast as Hoya but I'd bet any amount of money that the seasoned, p4p contender with TWO hands that Ramirez damn near beat was a better, smarter lightweight and fighter than Hoya ever was
Hoya was far quicker on his feet than Arguello. You've named some good fighters that Ramirez has done well against. But you haven't named any that even remotely resemble ODH.
Completely DISagree w/Your Opening Statement... Ability to Transition Through Weight Classes CAN Be Meaningless, But to Categorically LABEL it "Meaningless" to ANY Boxing Discussion, is BULLSHIT...Especially in a MYTHICAL Matchup Forum::... Are You Telling REED We SHOULDN'T Use Manny Pacquiao's KO of Ricky Hatton (@ Hatton's BEST Weight of 140lbs), While Pondering his Chances in a Mythical Matchup @ 126 or '30???... When Rating RETIRED Fighters, You Most Certainly CAN & SHOULD Reference the ENTIRETY of their Exploits, in Regards to their Transition Through Higher Weight Classes...DeLa Had LEGITIMATE Power 130-154, Undeniably... Roberto Duran???...What TRUE Welter Did Duran KO, that Compares to DeLa-Carr???...What TRUE Supermiddle Did Duran KO, that Compares to DeLa-Vargas???...Nonetheless, Duran & DeLa BOTH Fought @ 135, yet it's NOT Faaaar Fetched @ All, to Give DeLa a HIGHER Probability of KO'ing a Particular Opponent, in a Mythical Lightweight Matchup...It SHOULDN'T Be, Anyways... Do You HONESTLY See Rosario OR Arguello KO'ing ANY World Class Welters or Supermiddles, the Way DeLa Did to Carr & Vargas??... You're NEGLECTING to Point Out DeLa's Shoeshiney, Point Building, Round Stealing Flurries...Especially @ Lower Weights, he Punched in BUNCHES More than You're Giving him Credit For...Hell, in the Sweet Pea Fight Alone, DeLa Threw MANY Combination Flurries, he just Never LANDED Any Of Them... Nonetheless, He'd Find that Process MUCH Easier, Firing Shots @ Ramirez... John-John Molina was Less BASIC, More of a CUTEY & was Better DEFENSIVELY than Ramirez was...REED RESPECTS the Shit Out of Ramirez, but Let's NOT Pretend there were Many WRINKLES to his Style...He was VERY MUCH the Definition of the Modern Day "Mexican Fighter"...& if DeLa Displayed Even HALF the Footwork he Utilized in the Latter Rounds of the Trinidad Fight, What EXACTLY is Ramirez Going to Do about It???... Of Course, Arguello was a "Better, Smarter Lightweight" than DeLa...But he Damn Sure WASN'T Bigger, Stronger, Faster or HARDER Punching @ the Weight... REED:hammert:
Transitioning through weight classes is TOTALLY meaningless in a mythical matchup... I can't reference enough how totally meaningless it is... You want to use it to rate fighters p4p that's one thing (overrated thing, but reasonable) but deciding who would win a match between two guys in the same weight class? It's complete nonsense and you could come up with an endless stream of matchups and common sense hypotheticals that would illustrate the point...
Again, COMPLETELY DISagREED... If a Fighter SUCCESSFULLY Transitioned Through Various Weight Classes, AND Carried Legitimate, Fight Ending Power w/Him, NAVIGATING Those Weight Classes, REED Fails to See How it COULD Be Rendered Completely "Meaningless"... If the BODY of a Fighter's Work CLEARLY Illustrates him MAINTAINING Power Through Weights, How EXACTLY is that Meaningless in a Mythical Matchup???...How Can TANGIBLE Evidence of What a Fighter Did, Be Considered "Meaningless"???... REED:scratcher:
Was Dingaan Thobela Considered a "Puncher" @ ANY Weight Class he Shared w/Chavez???...What LEGIT Supermiddle Did he KO???... REED:scratcher:
Thomas Hearns was able to dominate a prime Virgil Hill and a prime Dennis Andries at light heavyweight ... Imagine what he'd do to a little middleweight like Marvin Hagler or a welterweight like sugar ray Leonard manny pacquiao was able to knock out a big thick junior welterweight yet you guys think Erik Morales could win a decision against him? Lol yeah okay how is baby arizmendi going to take 2 of 5 from a featherweight strong enough to get robbed of the middleweight title?
There's plenty more where that came from incidentally, which of de la hoya's lightweight foes would Ramirez not be a heavy favorite to beat?
The Hearns example actually hurts your case. Hearns was a murderous puncher at 147 who managed to hurt both SRL and Hagler. You're saying the fact Hearns carried his power to 175 isn't evidence that he hit hard at 147?
Agreed. Pacquiao kind of hurts the case too. The fact that he could still hurt and stop guys at 140 and 147 just enforces how hard a puncher he is, and why he was able to bounce MAB, Morales, AND Marquez off the canvas, all 3 of them tough fighters.
Is it Faaaaaaar Fetched to Think Hearns Just Might have Hit As Hard or HARDER than Ray Robinson Did @ '47???... REED:hammert:
Is it Faaaaaaaaaar Fetched to Think Pacqiao Hit As Hard or HARDER than "Lil Red" Lopez or Naseem Hamed, @ '26???... REED:hammert:
Hearns is probably the hardest hitting welterweight of all time. The problem with your logic brother clogg, is that you're conflating talent/skill/winning with power, which is just one facet of talent/skill/winning, and it's the specific facet being discussed.
My issue is that success at higher weights has fuck all to do with a mythical matchup at a lower weight Marvin Hagler was too small to ever fight at 175... Thomas Hearns was really good at 175... Hagler nonetheless needed only 3 rounds to be rid of him at 160 It could be an indicator of a bunch of things... body type, style, etc. ... What it is NOT is an indicator of dominance at the original weight Manny Pacquiao's accomplishments as a welterweight had no bearing on what he actually did as a featherweight... They still don't... He's not a great 122-130 pounder because he beat a bunch of overrated, largely weight-compromised foes at 140-150 probably aided by steroids... He's a great 122-130 pounder because he got a lot done at those weights, fought and beat good fighters... It has no bearing on anything... Michael Moorer was able to carry 220 pounds and win the heavyweight title... Bob Foster couldn't comfortably carry 190 pounds... At 175, I'd pick Foster to knock Moorer dead ... you don't get to bring the other 45 pounds with you into the ring
REED has Been Very SPECIFIC in Talking about POWER Transitioning Through the Weight Classes, Bro... DeLa was a LIGHTS OUT Puncher @ '35...He MAINTAINED a Good Bit of that Power All the Way up to '54...It Would Be Silly to NOT Reference DeLa's DEMONSTRATED Punching Prowess, when Assessing his Mythical Chances vs. Jose Luis Ramirez, a Guy who Was SLOW & had SHIT Defense... If a Mythical Matchup Consisting of Pac & Wilfredo Gomez Came About, Would it Be Faaaaaaaaar Fetched to Note Pac's Power @ '22 & the Transition of his Power All the Way to '40-'47???...Of Course It Wouldn't... DeLa was Bigger, Better, Faster, Stronger & More Skilled than Jose Luis Ramirez...He Also Hit as Hard or HARDER than Anybody Ramirez Faced @ '35...Like REED Initially Stated, DeLa Wins 9-3ish, w/Out Much Fuss, Curtailing Ramirez's Aggression w/POWER... REED:mj:
And I stand by the fact that Edwin Rosario couldn't curtail the guy with power... neither would Hoya:fist:
