Who do you rank higher alltime, Floyd or Pac?

Do you see some featherweights from last 50 years repeating the same, ie. beating the top-notch fighters of 135-147, some of who were top-10 p4pers?

 

You mean the crop that Pacquiao has beaten aided by catchweight shenanigans, performance enhancing drugs, etc.??

Quite possibly

 

No more catchweight shenanigans that Floyd. Most fights weren't fought at a catchweight, and ones that were, were like 2 pounds.

Could any featherweight in history have done what Pacquiao did, even with PEDs? No fucking way.

What Pacquiao has achieved post 130 is mindblowing, not just the wins, but the sheer manner in which he steamrolled much larger men.

Again, one of the best feats in boxing history.

 

Agreed

 

"Could any featherweight in history have done what Pacquiao did, even with PEDs? No fucking way."

Based on what?

 

I don't want to speak for MWS but my answer would be, because no-one has. Pac isn't the only fighter on the roids, and all fighters of his era have the same possibilities as him

 

The consensus is that Pacquiao is/was a juice taking cheater. That is not the consensus for all of his opponents. He shouldn't get any credit for what he has done if he was taking juice to assist in accomplishing what he has accomplished.

Would a race car driver be deserving of accolades if he spiked his gasoline and used illegal tires?

 

Precisely. No one has come close. And according to some people in boxing, and even on this forum "They're all on PEDs".

Pacquiao is completely unique. It'll be a long, long time before we see another featherweight moving up to welter and slapping good welterweights around like they're his little brother.

 

His comp above 130 is largely shit and most of the biggest scalps had already been beaten decisively by another guy whose career north of 140 is suspect in the ATG discussion

Henry Armstrong was a featherweight who was by most accounts robbed of the Middleweight title... I'd rate his accomplishments far more than Pacquiao's

A person's viewpoint on this depends largely on whether or not they believe that the talent pool among mid-sized boxers has been at a historic low during the runs of Mayweather/Pac/JMM/Hopkins, etc. ... If you don't believe that and think everything's as good or better than it ever was, you are likely to think of each of these 4 chaps in higher terms ... If you do believe it, you are going to view things quite a bit differently.

The higher weight class success of Mayweather, JMM and Pacquiao has a whole lot to do with a dearth of quality fighters in those weight classes (not to mention weight games and possibly PEDs), IMO, so I don't rate these accomplishments anywhere near as highly as the vociferous supporters of these men do. And since that argument is basically impossible to prove or disprove, we reach an impasse.

I'm more impressed by Pacquiao defeating great featherweights and junior lightweights like MAB, Morales and JMM than I am by him defeating a washed-up, inactive, weight drained, cross-dressing drug addict or a pasty cagefighter or a lumbering punching bag

 

This is an era where a pedestrian, competent guy like Miguel Cotto actually gets seriously debated as a "Great" fighter

 

The thing is though, if a fighter is not good enough, nobody cares if he juices or not. Was Jesse Ferguson a clean fighter, or did he do some steroids or cocaine as most heavyweights did in the 80s? It would be very possible that he did but nobody has ever claimed so since nobody cares too much, so there is no consensus on him. That's why you can't compare Pac directly to Clottey or Hatton or such

 

Would you pick Salvador Sanchez over this pedestrian?

 

Exactly. Give Sanchez or any other featherweight all the peds in the world, and Cotto would stomp the shit out of them.

We're talking about a guy who just gave Floyd a run for his money, and who just won the lineal middleweight title - yet he gets talked about as a scrub. It's insane.

The way Pacquiao just walked through Cotto and beat the shit out of him is unbelievable. Icing Hatton with 1 punch in the 2nd round is almost as impressive.

And lest we not forget, most of us picked old, weight drained Oscar to beat Pacquiao. The size difference was laughable at the time.

If it was no big deal, we'd see other people doing it against the same calibre of opponents. We don't, that's a fact, so therefore it's undeniable that what Pacquiao has done is remarkable, and unique.

 

Does he get to pump himself up with god knows what and sweat the guy down a few pounds?

Don't you blokes find it just a tad suspicious that the best fighters between 140-154 the last few years are all guys well over 30 years old who were from much smaller weight classes when they were in their physical primes??

This isn't Archie Moore, where it's one total anomaly sticking out like a sore thumb... It's 3 guys... Now either they are the only guys on the good drugs or the comp ain't what it used to be

Salvador Sanchez, had he lived, would have had to go through guys like Arguello, Mancini, Pryor, Leonard, Hearns, Duran, Curry, etc. in order to "duplicate" the successes of Pacquiao, for example

You think there's a genuine correlation between that group and the likes of old DLH, Cotto, margarito, Clottey, etc??

 

Why isn't anyone else doing it now?

It's not like there's no incentive, if they did, they'd get a fuck load of money, credit and adoration, just like Pacquiao.

 

The PEDs is only a small part of what I was saying

 

Yep,m no Pac fan, but it's dishonest to discredit his achievement.

 

at mancini, like he belongs to be named with those guys. In fact, I would pick Clottey big over him.

while it's true that Pacman wouldn't have replicate his succes in that era, it sure wouldn't be boom boom mancini who would have stopped him from achieving it. It would have been a massacre

 

This.

Pacquiao's run was remarkable and completely unprecedented. I was always a big fan of Manny but I could never have envisioned what he ended up doing. I think McDogg is being ridiculously cynical here.

 

You would pick a 150 pound welterweight over a 135 pound lightweight? Way to go out on a limb. Sterling analysis.

 

I think I'm taking a realistic POV on what has clearly been a terrible era in the sport

 

Agreed. I really like mcdogg, but I'll never understand how he can underrate Pacquiao's accomplishments to such an obscene degree.

 

Forget about comparing eras, why aren't other people doing it today?

If an elite fighter moving up a few divisions and treating significantly bigger, world class guys like heavybags is no big deal, why is Pacquiao the only one doing it?

Why did your boy Donaire just get the shit kicked out of him in one sided fashion, by the first world class guy he fought that was bigger than him?

If it was nothing particularly impressive, and not unique, Donaire would have iced Walters, then moved up again and beat the shit out of Crawford.

 

Didn't Floyd Mayweather Jr move up from being a dominant 130 lb champion to being a dominant 154 lb champion? Pretty much the same as 126->Mannyweight(tm)

 

Yeah, pacquiao's the genius who thought steroids (wich are rampant in sports since at least the 80's) would be usefull in boxing. No one has thought of this before or since but his team, from the pharmaceutical hotbed that is general santos city have the secret gear that other's havent. And MAnny, the selfish bastard that he is, wouldn't even give the stuff to his own brother. What a sorry pos

 

Exactly

And the only guy to (actually) beat Pacquiao during this higher weight run happens to be another over-30 former Featherweight...

 

Others are... Floyd Mayweather (who strangely enough is recording victories over some of Pac's biggest scalps often well before he actually did)

Myriad reasons... Questionable dedication, Walters being a good fighter, etc. ... The fact is that the lower weight classes haven't appeared to experience the decline the higher ones have ... I have been consistent on this position... for all of the mikE and Jesus of Montreal type of posters who throw Bert Sugar at me if I dare suggest that, I don't know, Jimmy Paul was considerably better at this sport than Michael Katsidis, I have maintained ad infinitum that I don't perceive a decline in the talent pool south of the Lightweights... Pacquaio lost to Morales down there and struggled mightily with JMM... Why didn't he hammer those guys with the ease he hammered the Clotteys and Margaritos??? Maybe because those guys are way better at boxing??

This last bit... let's compare like with like, shall we? Pacquiao moved up to Morales and lost... won the rematches... When he next moved up, it was three years later against DAVID DIAZ... A patsy of a champion if ever there was one... It's a bit of a stretch to compare moving up after three years in a division to face a garbage fighter like David Diaz to moving up after a short time in a division to beat a quality fighter like Crawford

As far as "if it was nothing particularly impressive"... Where did I say it wasn't? It IS impressive but it is completely overrated given the comp involved, the timing​ involved, etc. and it is NOT unprecedented historically the way pac fanboys like to pretend it is, especially when the other two best fighters in the 140s were also fucking featherweight/junior lightweights

 

Who, not coincidentally, looked so ridiculously PED enhanced that only the most naïve of the naïve would believe he wasn't.

 

On planet boxing a guy puts on 7lb of muscle and it can only be steroids.

 

when this coincides with the hiring of a man with a notorious link to banned substances, it takes great naivete to believe there's not something fishy going on