Boxing and coincidence

How much do you think coincidence affects the outcome of a boxing match? Of course it depends on the fight but in general how much can the fighter or coach affect and how much goes by chance?

Coincidences can affect a fight on several levels: injuries, sicknesses, even bad oysters can and will indeed have an effect on fighter's performance. Nobody wants to hear them used as excuses since winning in sports is much about fighting through the circumstances, but the fact is that several things which the fighter can't totally control himself can change the outcome of a single fight.

The same goes inside the ring: every fighter tries to KO his opponent but we often see knockout punches which the winning fighter wouldn't be able to repeat if he tried it a hundred times. Or you can do everything correct in your defense but a punch from a weird angle can to damage, such as when Ray Mercer missed Francesco Damiani with his punch and landed to the tip of his nose. The punch wasn't even that hard but it landed so that Damiani's nose got shattered. Here again, you can fight so that the risk of being caught by chance decreases, but you can't completely remove it.

Some fights are so one-sided that coincidence doesn't have anything to do with them, but in a ore evenly-matched bout a coincidence can be the deciding factor. I am not saying we shouldn't care for results, since a result is always a combination of actions and circumstances. But, if we really want to find out who is the better of two fighters, a single bout between might not measure it very well, if we consider that coincidences change outcomes.

 

No Fan Man and Evander never wins that fucking fight.

Vitali might have done better with full camp for Lewis.

Ali's hernia MIGHT have affected the outcome of Ali vs Liston as Liston, allegedly, was in great shape for the rematch.

Vitali was due to face Razor Ruddock but Ruddocks vasectomy went bad and Chris Byrd filled-in. It's hard to know what the real effect of that was.....it probably benefitted Vitali in the long run, as opposed to harming him. Ruddock was probably the real loser. He had no sperm and no money.

There was a title fight between an Australian and a Thai or Filipino, possibly at Flyweight, and the fighters were forced to fight barefoot in the lashing rain...the Australian won but the more powerful Thai said he lost because he couldn't get traction in his bare feet to unload his heavy shots.

http://fightbeat.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-47659.html

Another "coincidence" that could be usefully examined is all these fighters that kept dying after or during dental work.

Harry Greb
Pancho Villa
Les Darcy
Tiger Flowers

 

This is why losses shouldn't be the career killing events they seem to be in boxing. HBO loves to do nothing but talk about a fighter who's never lost, or, if a fighter has, the loss is a jumping off point for a long discussion on a fighter's fundamental weaknesses. Or, in some cases, they talk about the loss in terms of a turning point in a fighter's career, as if to say, that'll never happen again. But it can never just be, "yeah. He lost. Fighter's do that once in a while when they face other good fighters" doing so would be a departure from their premise that certain fighters are super human or unbeatable.

 

Vitali has NO fucking excuse for losing to Lewis.

Lewis was old, FAT, and mentally retired already. Lennox literally had ZERO motivation left after beating Tyson. That's all he wanted to do.

I don't care HOW long Vitali trained for, if Lewis had been about 3 years younger and FULLY motivated, Vitali would have gotten destroyed.

Lewis was simply a better fighter than both sisters.

 

I wish Vitali had fought the Lewis of the Golota fight.

Wlad would have been weeping at ringside watching his big bro gettin carried out.

 

I really don't get that line of thinking, there are too many unanswered questions to just assume Vitali gets destroyed. Could a fully motivated Lewis have walked through him? Yeah possibly, but it's not like there was much evidence of that in the fight itself. Vitali does have an excuse for losing to Lewis, lack of preparation, first fight against an all time great and motivated or not he was still fighting the best heavyweight on the planet. Could Vitali have Henry Cooper type skin and Lewis busts up his face again in the rematch? Quite possibly, but there's also the chance it was just a punch landed at the right angle at the right moment and would be difficult to replicate. We never got the chance to see.

The uppercut Lewis landed on Vitali was HELLACIOUS, that punch takes out more than 50% of heavyweights and drops at least 90%. It was thrown perfectly and had all of Lennox's weight (his heaviest ever, right?) behind it, Vitali taking that punch alone means he deserves a little more credit than assuming an in-shape Lewis just rocks up and dickslaps Vitali into the canvas.

 

Greb had already retired when his routine surgery went awry, for the record

 

That uppercut blew a hole through the underneath of Vitali's upper lip.
Lewis also opened up several other gashes outside of Vitali's eye including his cheek.
That uppercut shook Vitali up pretty badly and made him hold on for several seconds. Lewis hit Holyfield in fight #2 with a clean flush uppercut and Holyfield took it although was clearly rocked by it.

 

Personally I think Vitali's tough as heck. Probably would be a stern test for most any heavyweight because of his chin and size and awkwardness. I doubt anyone is gonna blow him out within 3 rounds ::

 

Vitali's pretty hard.

 

One thing is for sure....if Jennifer Lopez was about to get ass raped by a bunch of fightbeaters, all she would have to say is "Lewis Vitali" and she would be able to slip out of the room as you mooks fought it out.

 

No version of Lewis destroys any version of Vitali. Vitali is fucking good, and big, and awkward, and tough.

 

Vitali was very good indeed and very durable... Can't see anyone having an easy time with him

 

It's interesting how Lewis was trying to land one big shot for the duration of the fight. He was trying to 'Sanderize' Vitali the same way Sanders blew out younger Klitschko. I think Lewis watched Vitali/Byrd a few too many times and figured if he hits the guy a few times, the guy will quit on his stool.

 

"The two headed beast that is the Klitschko brothers".

It's amazing how little thinking the average yank actually does for himself. There has to be a reason why guys like Lamprey and Cosell stay in work as long as they do.

Totally different boxers with totally different styles and characteristics.

 

Once upon a time on this forum, all you had to say was "Who won Mayweather-Castillo 1?" and it was guaranteed to be a 6-page thread each time.

Haven't seen one of those in awhile, thank God.

 

What's the big hullaballoo with Lewis klitschko? I was at the staples center for the fight and it doesn't register for me as anything noteworthy

 

In other words, you attend a lot fights. Yeah. We know. We're all impressed.

 

i appreciate your admiration. the point is, i was not impressed by the fight. nor is it worth much debate

 

The version of Lewis that KO'd Rahman in the rematch a couple years earlier would've stopped Vitali, cut or no cut. As it is, a disinterested and out of shape version stopped him anyway.

 

:notallthere:

 

Neil, do you think Vitali got cheated with the stoppage?

 

I found it pretty exciting at the time as i remember. The novelty of two guys that massive trading blows was half the thing though. And I was probably drunk.

 

It's a fairly entertaining slugfest but it is pretty overrated... People forget that Vitali still had that business with his shoulder in the Byrd fight hanging over his head so he surprised viewers by going to war like that and earned a lot of respect in the process, a lot of redemption... I think the fact that it was a more bombs-away fight than anybody predicted has led people to overrate it... It was a good fight, but I've seen people claim it as a great fight... It really wasn't

 

It was a great scrap though, the last great heavyweight title fight

 

nah, it wasn't great at all

It was the last heavyweight fight I can remember thinking was entertaining though, that's for sure

Some of Vitali's beatdowns have aesthetic value (like the one he administered on that bum Peter, softening him up so his little sister would have an easier time in the rematch) but I wouldn't say they were "exciting"

wald pussy's fights have absolutely zero replay value... If you watch at all, it's to see if some scrub can become the fourth bum to knock his sorry, cheating ass out, because that shit is entertaining

 

I thought Lamon Brewster vs Sergei Liakhovic for the WBO title on Showtime in 2006 was awesome!! Back and forth...back and forth...it was intense all the way to the final bell.

 

Stay away from rubbish-trucks then.

 

hmmm... I don't remember it well but I think I saw it... I'll check it out

 

I hear what you are saying Ugo, and I agree 'co-incidence' can play a big role in boxing. I tend to look at it pretty statistically... like I would boxers at the top level are all somewhat close, like say 80-100 on the scale of 0-100, while me or some random dude off the street would be like 0-10. Now all things being the same, the 100 boxer will best the 80 boxer, but you do have things like sickness, training regime, jetlag, weight loss... so the 100 boxer could drop by like 5 or 10 points because he's had the flu or a hangover and some jetlag, and add in a lucky punch or extra motivation because his mom recently passed and now the 80 boxer is like an 85 or so. So it becomes like an even fight, then throw in a ref who didn't get the memo and counts full seconds to make one of the longest 10 counts in history and suddenly you have what seems to be a major upset, but it really isn't be becuase top fighters are actually pretty close, and add up a few co-incidences and it can tip the scales.