THE Duran....DeJesus III version...

Which two Heavyweights are those?

You wouldn't call Liston a P4P level Heavyweight? Foreman?

I'm assuming you're speaking of Holmes and Frazier...and guess what...Liston and Foreman rank up there with those two historically.

 

Holmes and Frazier are the only Ali opponents who would warrant consideration as top 100 p4p fighters. Liston was basic and Foreman was stupid.

 

That's ridiculous. Both Liston and Foreman are CERTAINLY top 100 all time fighters.

 

Top 100 famous American sportsman maybe. Liston? Lmao.

 

Hmmmm.....

I seem to recall Foreman owning Frazier...TWICE! I also seem to recall Foreman regaining the title, something Frazier never did. Foreman was also the oldest Heavyweight to win the title.

NO WAY...can anyone, objectively, rank Frazier over Foreman.

As for Holmes...Ali was 100 years old in that fight.

 

In a pound for pound sense Foreman is useless. There are dozens of active fighters I'd pick to school Foreman handily p4p. You know, cause he was so stupid slow and crude. He was a bad matchup for Frazier but Fraziers strength and intangibles make him a tough fight for anybody. Any top level boxer should handle Foreman with out much trouble.

 

But hang on one second.....

Liston only lost 4 times in 54 fights and 2 of those were to the G.O.A.T....and in his final loss he was almost 40. The guy beat up Patterson, Foley, Williams, Valdez and had 39 KOs in 50 wins.

What's wrong with you man?

 

Liston was ok. He's not an all-time top 100 or 200 p4p fighter and if he wasn't well known and connected to Ali no one would ever suggest it. Same with Foreman.

They're all just boxers on tape to me.

 

There are tons of flyweights and bantamweights no one has ever heard of that were clearly obviously on a different level than a Liston or Foreman but people pretend not to notice so they can keep watching documentaries and helping build legends.

It's an insult to the sport.

 

Heavyweights are never going to be 'p4p as talented' as smaller guys. It is just not possible. A heavyweight-sized guy can't be as quick, throw as good combinations or keep such pace as a lightweight can.

Mike Tyson had the foot-speed and hand-speed of lightweights, but he lacked reach and had to burn plenty of energy because of that. There can't be an average-sized heavyweight with Tyson's abilities.

Thus comparing them like this (Foreman wasn't 'p4p a good fighter') is pretty stupid.

Also, when we think of the best performances ever, in truth we are talking about the most eye-catching performances ever. True boxing master classes (such as Spinks', Monzon's or Hopkins') are hardly ever mentioned

 

p4p is relative to the division. Roman Gonzales wouldn't throw combos like he does if he was a HW, but he would still throw combos. I take that into consideration. It's not the concept of "heavyweight boxing" that's inferior it's the boxers.

You're trying to make heavyweight boxing into its own special sport because you don't want to accept the fact that it's a historically weak division and that fact was hidden because it was the money division.

 

What they all have in common was that they fought a past his prime Duran at higher weight classes than his natural one. I don't give any of them a chance fighting prime lightweight younger Duran. Roberto went up in weight for only two reasons: to make more money and to eat more.

 

That last sentence is not true, at least not in my case.

When I list great masterclasses, I ALWAYS include Spinks-Qawi, Hopkins-Johnson, and Monzon-Griffith on my list.

 

Roman Gonzales would be fat if he were a HW

 

So maybe it is a coincidence too that in every sport that requires plenty of body coordination and quickness (such as gymnasts, soccer, hockey, tennis, whatever), the best players are smaller guys? You don't see a 6'6 gymnast, nor a 6'6, 250 lbs Messi, nor 240 lbs Roger Federer.

Instead, in sports where size and reach are essential (such as American football, basketball, shot put, javelin etc.) the bigger guys usually dominate.

So does this mean that football and basketball are historically weaker sports, because the guys i them have less speed, less body coordination and less endurance than in the other sports?

This is where your logic leads.

 

I've been agreeing with you more often than not in this thread, but Toney is not the reason Jones should be held in high esteem. Toney had many off nights throughout his entire career.

 

Yes, but usually that was because he was out of shape or unmotivated. (normally they go together)

Maybe he was a bit weight drained, but it certainly wasn't a lazy unfocused JT in the ring that night. He just couldn't cope with Roy Jones speed or style.

 

the story goes when people saw how shitty toney looked at the weigh in they were running to the sports book to bet on jones jr.

 

The story also goes that Toney is given more excuses for his losses and shit performances than anyone in the history of the sport not named Duran.

 

word.

 

Dejesus was a very good fighter.....

 

Ignore Twerp...

He Has a Disturbing Affinity for Lower Weight Fighters Bordering on PEDOPHILIA, & this is Manifested in Heavyweight HATRED...





REED:kidcool:

 

Yep....Duran put on a performance for the ages here. An absolutely virtuoso mix of offense and defense.

Controlled aggression, great job of either leading and making Dejesus miss, or making Dejesus lead, avoiding the shot, and then countering back.