Pernell Whitaker v Floyd Mayweather Jr

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You know better than I do that how impressive a fighter looks and how good he actually is are not always the same thing

 

agMONTREALd

 

Even if he had it wouldnt have made him a worse fighter- hed stlll be a guy who deservedly made p4p lists for 15, 16, 17 full years. I don't think that has any precedent

 

I don't believe it is this simple.

In boxing it can indeed happen that a fighter is good in two different weight classes and worse in between them. This is because 1) fighters change physically as they age and 2) success in different weight classes requires slightly different things.

IMO Floyd was at his best at super-feather, he was as quick as the best, had supreme technique and power in both hands.

At lightweight he wasn't quite as effective, since his power didn't have the same kind of effect and he wasn't as strong compared to his competitors.

At higher weights he again did better, since there he had such and edge in speed that he could compensate his lack of size.

The same way I think Pacquiao was better than ever at lightweight (where he didn't fight that much). The best fighters of super-featherweight and lower could match his speed and catch him between his punches, whereas the fighters of welterweight were big and powerful. At 135-140 he was faster than anybody but his own punches were still effective and his chin could take the shots.

If a fighter s a one-trick pony, then he will be at his best in one weight class (Hatton, Abraham or such) but not always.

Remind me of Floyd's bad performances at 130 lbs btw because I don't remember such. It is very possible they existed of course, since pretty much every fighter in the history has had routine-like victories

 

I don't believe it's that complicated! If anything floyds relative difficulties at 135 were probably just due to it being the worst period for the hand problems he later found an adequate solution for.

 

I think you're putting way too much emphasis on the few pounds separating weightclasses. If it was in the days of the 7 weightclasses era, I could accept such an argument, but nobody will make me belive that moving 5 pounds (130-135) had such an impact on Mayweather power. And I think that you are underselling Castillo way too much. The guy was a heck of a fighter. He's the reason why PBF looked nad at LW. Agains Sosa, PBF looked no worst than he did against Goyo vargas and carlos hernadez (even before he broke his hands).

 

Having broken hands has a big effect on your power

 

Is there a reason in your opinion then why don't we see more weight-class shifting? We see fighters get up in weight regularly, but why don't they fight one bout at 135 lbs, another at 147 lbs, then at 140 lbs and get back at lightweight, if the weight classes don't matter that much? I would think it would be easier for fighters to find opponents and make bigger bouts that way so it would be a good idea, unless it was a hard thing to do.

 

I guess you could say Robinson did it, since his p4p stretch probably begins with his first fights against Zivic in 41, and ends with the first Fulmmer (or mayber basillio) fights in 57. So a good 15-16 years.

 

So you think that Castillo succes was mostly due to Floyd bad hands ?

 

It contributed, of course. Although i think floyd won anyway

 

This is exactly what it is. At the higher weights he used bigger gloves and that minimized his hand problems.

 

Yeah good catch. Only extremely exhalted company then!

 

Except one of these guys fought 140 times against outstanding comp during his "run"

 

Floyds longevity is still impressive tho. It's ok to say it out loud man, beetlejuice won't appear ::

 

Longevity and consistency. I don't think Floyd is the GOAT as a fighter, but I'll concede to him being the most dedicated fighter of all time in terms of training camp/staying in shape.

He had a great prime, and a long prime.

STILL doesn't change the fact that Whitaker had a BETTER prime.

 

Robinson's comp wasn't that great. Remember names sound better in history...simply because they are history. For example, Alan Minter, Mustafa Hamsho and Vito Antuofermo sounds like GREAT names from a 2016 vantage point, because they are part of history and legend, but in actuality those guys were less formidable than Felix Trinidad, Kelly Pavlik and Joe Calzaghe. Robinson's comp can be evaluated similarly overall. Of course he did fight and beat some truly great fighters, but the vast majority of those 140 guys he beat were bums.

Also...if we're going by number of fights, then Leonard with only 30 or so fights would be waaaaaaaaaay down the P4P list.

Mayweather fought the best fighters in his era, whether or not we want to accept that or not. People say he didn't fight Margarito, Williams or Cintron.....well he fought COrrales, De La Hoya, Hatton, Cotto and Canelo....therefore so what?

Longevity proves A LOT. See boxing is about styles at the end of the day. A guy can beat a greater fighter just because he has the style to do so. The only way to prove true greatness is with consistency over a long period of time. The ability to triumph over a variety of styles and talents over a period of time is the only true test to your prowess. Else Kirkland Laing is greater than Duran.

I someone is consistently fighting guys who qualified for a title shot or were former champions he has to be great to continually beat them..even if we think those fighters were mediocre. Guys lose to mediocre fighters all the time, due to styles and other factors.....it proves as much or more to prevail over a large number of mediocre championship level fighters over a long period of time than it does to prevail over one or two top fighters over a short period of time. Why? The styles makes fights thing. The greatest fighters can prevail over a variety of styles and abilities and even when their natural physical gifts decline with age...still have so much in reserve that they can still win.

 

Ridiculous

 

You're just biased. I don't expect to convince you. You're wired internally to pick exciting fighters over boring fighters. I remember your picking Matthyssee to destroy Garcia for example.

 

What?

 

Or has a deeper knowledge of boxing history and consequently a better sense of context. :truce:

 

Sly calling anybody biased is some funny shit

 

Knowledge is useless without wisdom

 

Amazing how you're all over-complicating this. ::

 

A stitch in time is a penny earned

 

In the bush.

 

artie:

 

I agree for the most part.

I rank Mayweather pretty highly H2H from 130 thru 140. Although he didn't look too special at 135, I attribute some of that to Castillo being an excellent fighter who would always give Mayweather problems with his intelligent pressure. One thing I noticed is Floyd being susceptible to well-timed feints, which would result in him ending up on the ropes (one of the main reasons I think master feinter Duran is the worst matchup for him).

Burton/Augustus managed to bloody Floyd's nose and make him work harder than usual but Floyd kicked the hell out of him. Floyd had a tough time getting his offense going against Sosa besides his jab, but Sosa could barely touch him, and this wasn't something especially new. As you said, he had performances like that at 13, namely against Goyo Vargas.

 

Still the best Mayweather Jr Mythical Matchup thread evah.