Felix Trinidad vs GGG 160lbs

He beat every middleweight that mattered during his tenure and that's all you can ask of a champion.

 

Only problem is none of them mattered::

But I agree... He fought whoever would fight him and didn't really turn into a horrifying, negative bitch until later

 

hopkins had more options at 168 than golovkin does. and a better frame for that division

 

That's precisely the same defence GGG supporters have been mounting. I have no problem recognising that Hopkins dominated a very weak era, so long as it is recongised that his era was very, very weak. Anyone who is trying to claim that Hopkins has some kind of resume, or was even properly tested, at 160 is mistaken.

MTF

 

I don't know. Might only be me, but I think that Holmes, Joppy, Tridinad and DLH are a bit better than Murray, Lemieux and Geale

 

Trinidad and DLH were formindable welterweights. They were not middleweights. Joppy arguably lost to Howard Eastman and got whipped by Tito. He was garbage. Holmes was worse than Joppy.

When they are arguably the best four defences of your ten year middleweight reign, you are talking about a very poor reign, resume-wise.

MTF

 

Trinidad was as much a middleweight as Hearns, Duran, Leonard and Mugabi were and those are Hagler's most celebrated wins. So I hope you're consistent with your reasoning.

 

Btw my point is around Trinidad specifically, downgrading him to merely being a formidable Welterweight

 

Sure, none of those fighters were really middleweights. But Hearns, Duran and Leaonard would have lit Tito up at their respective optimum weights. They were better. Full stop.

MTF

 

What is the evidence that Tito was a good middleweight? He had two credible fights there. In his first, he beat Joppy :: To repeat - Joppy arguably lost to Howard Eastman. He was garbage as compared to elite level fighters. In Tito's only other worthwhile MW fight he got schooled.

There is nothing to suggest that Tito was even a 'good' middleweight, let alone a very good one.

MTF

 

and what is the evidence that Duran Leonard and Mugabi were good middleweights pray tell?

 

Alan Minter was a better MW than Tito. So was Antuofermo. So was Roldan. Mugabi and Hamsho are arguable...

MTF

 

Not a lot. I'm not a Hagler nuthugger. You're fighting the wrong battle here.

MTF

 

good. I'm not fighting any battles, just making sure people are consistent. Seems that you are, so we're done here. ;)

 

Now you're being silly. Trinidad would've knocked those guys out. Joppy wasn't a p4p'er but neither were these guys and he was no worse than the 3rd mw in the world. #2 according you. He was undefeated in reality and a long reigning champ. Tito was p4p and demolished him on his way up. That gives him some legitimacy as a mw, even if Joppy struggled with some undefeated highly ranked contender afterwards.

Hopkins beating him isn't the same as beating a true mw with the same status but let's not be unfair.

 

No. You're being silly. Joppy's best wins are a 100-year old Duran and a contestable MD against Howard Eastman. He was crap. He was a paper champ in an absolutely awful era who lost to every decent MW he fought.

Tito destroyed welterweights. He was a very, very good welterweight. He beat Reid and Vargas at LMW. Good wins there but nothing amazing by any stretch. He had two fights at MW. He beat the aforementioned crap and then got schooled.

There is no evidence he would have knocked out Minter, Antuofermo, Roldan etc. The only possible evidence is his KO win over Joppy. That isn't actual evidence.

MTF

 

I'm not a Tito hater, BTW. He was an absolutely world class welterweight. No argument there. But there is simply nothing to suggest that he was effective at MW save for his single win there against a guy who wasn't very good. Claiming that guy was good is reaching beyond all sensible logic.

MTF

 

I agree with MTF (Shocker!, right? :: )

Tito was no middleweight. He was not at his best at that weight and it's not even because he lost to Hopkins who was a legit bad ass there, and probably does the same to most welterweights that would have tried to beat him at middle.

147-154 range Trinidad was a great fighter. Not an all timer like Robinson and Leonard, but at his best, beats most guys. Give him Mayweathers quality of comp at 147-154, and he too retires undefeated.

 

I just saw this. Trinidad would have beaten each and every one of those guys. In fact he would have utterly butchered antuofermo and Roldan and knocked out Mugabi in under 3 rounds. Alan Minter may have tested him but would have still lost and Hamsho was average.

I think you're basing Tito on the Hopkins and Wright fights. Hopkinsnwould have beaten every Hagler opponent and Tito was somewhat past it by the time he fought Wright ( Winky would have beaten him anyway, I concede)

 

Tito was so many levels above the guys MTF is mentioning it's laughable to say they were better because they were a little bigger. He was a better fighter and he would've butchered those guys.

Clearly Tito wasn't at his best at mw but he was an elite p4p at 154 that moved up and eradicated the 2nd best mw in the world. You're going overboard arguing a technicality.

Joppy held his belt by convincingly beating the nobodies put in front of him. His only relevant losses were to a pair of Hof'ers. He was a solid accomplished pro. Harping on him beating a contender in the twilight of his career while coming off a brutal ko loss is pretty weak. How hard would I have to look thru the records of the guys you named to see them struggling or losing to someone worse than Howard Eastman?

 

Winky may have had the right style to beat Trinidad always, but I do believe that it is very close at 154 lbs with both in their primes. Remember Winky was a different fighter back them as well. He opened up more and took more chances, and he hadn't quite yet patented his turtle shell. His fights with Simon and Vargas are proof of this. Again, I think it would be very close either way.

Hopkins always beats Trinidad, though.

 

Yeah Trinidad could have never beaten Hopkins. In fact if they fought ten times, each time would be a blowout. Stylistic mismatch

 

Winky very much fought in a shell at 154 and I think that's why Tito knocks him out in his prime. He was a lot more explosive and coordinated before he retired.

 

Agreed a 100%.

And as you said, beating Eastman in a close fight coming of a devastating ko is not a negative in Joppy resume. Eastman was a decent fighter, who many claimed he was robbed by AA after the Joppy fight, and was midly competitive with Hopkins

 

:atu:

 

Which one of those guys would you pick over Trinidad?

 

Of course I am. What other MW fights should be base him on?

That's right. His fight against Joppy.

MTF ::

 

So, just so we have this clear. Tito, who won 1 (one) proper MW fight, would whip Minter, Antuofermo, Roldan...

MTF ::

 

Like you watched the Joppy-Eastman fight. Like it matters.

MTF

 

At 160? All of them.

MTF